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- [00:00]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Coming up on this episode of the Dr. Hyman show, the vast majority of.
- [00:04]
Allen Williams
Farmers today, they themselves have no clue what really good, nutrient dense food tastes like.
- [00:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
When I was just starting my medical journey as an emergency room physician, magnesium was a critical element of our care. We used it to treat all kinds of conditions, from arrhythmia to constipation to preeclampsia. It turns out that magnesium is critically important outside of the emergency room too. In fact, it's one of the most important minerals for all aspects of health. It participates in over 300 different biochemical reactions in your body, yet over 60% of the population doesn't get the amount of magnesium they need from their diet alone. That's why I'm such a big advocate of bioptimizers. Their Magnesium Breakthrough supplement is the only supplement on the market that offers the full spectrum of all seven types of magnesium. Specially formulated to reach every tissue in your body. To provide maximum health benefits, Bioptimizers is offering my community 10% off. Just head over to bioptimizers.com hyman with code HYMAN10 that's bioptimizers.com hyman with code HYMEN10 at checkout before we jump into today's episode, I want to share a few ways you can go deeper on your health journey. While I wish I could work with everyone one on one, there just isn't enough time in the day. So I've built several tools to help you take control of your health. If you're looking for guidance, education and community, check out my private membership, the Hymenhive for live Q&As, exclusive content and direct connection. For real time lab testing and personalized insights into your biology, visit Function Health. You can also Explore my curated doctor trusted supplements and health products@doctor hyman.com and if you prefer to listen without any breaks, don't forget you can enjoy every episode of this podcast ad free with Hyman plus just open Apple Podcasts and tap. Try free to start your seven day free trial.
- [01:46]
Allen Williams
We became increasingly reliant on inputs and on products that what I now call band aids on a gushing wound. You know that that's all those products are the vast majority of our research. The vast majority of the things that we, the practices that we implement in agriculture today and the products that we utilize and apply never address the root cause of the things that are that are truly impacting us. From the diseases to the past to the lack of fertility to the soil degradation to the animal health, they never really address It So again, it's putting a band aid on the gushing wound. And here's what's happened over the last several decades in farming. Farmers have been encouraged and led through federal policy, through crop insurance programs, subsidy and many even lenders and everybody else to become more and more specialized to the point that today, and Mark, this may be very surprising to a lot of consumers, but today the vast majority of farmers do not eat anything that they produce on their farms. They go to the grocery store just like everybody else. Now how sad is that? We're not as farmers we don't even know. Now obviously I do because we're, we're very different. We're regenerative in what we do and we produce a lot of what we eat today. Again like when I was growing up. But, but the vast majority of farmers today, they themselves have no clue what really good nutrient dense food tastes like. They are also entrapped and ensnared in the same food cycle in this highly processed foods and so on and so forth that every other consumer is in snare. Dan as well.
- [03:49]
Dan
And you said that you know farmers when you grow up with skinny and now they're all overweight, right?
- [03:56]
Allen Williams
Right. Well, they don't do any farmers today because of our highly specialized equipment, gis, you know, GPS guided equipment and so on and so forth. Basically they're very, they're like a truck driver, they're very sedentary. So their butts are seated in, in the seat of a tractor, a combine, a sprayer, whatever the case may be, you know, for long hours every day. And they're not even having on many of these tractors and combines today, not even having to physically steer. They're just listening to podcasts or on autopilot. There you go. Or you know, listening to the radio or whatever. And so the honest truth is I find that God awful boring. Okay.
- [04:45]
Dan
Yeah.
- [04:46]
Allen Williams
And mind numbing to think that you have to farm that way now because in almost all of them have consultants that are provided by major agribusiness, they're called crop consultants. And, and so what we find is farmers today are making fewer and fewer of their own decisions. Those decisions are made for them by their lenders, by their suppliers, by their consultants and their ability to think and to reason about what they're doing and why their whole decision making capability has basically been co opted and their decisions are being made by others. So even though they take all the risks, they own the land or they lease the land, they have to own the equipment, they have all of this incredible debt. What's happening is that they still are not the key decision makers on their own farms. They may think they are, but in reality they're not. And so what we're seeing, and I wrote an article about this last year, relative to the significant amount of depression and suicide in the farming community. Again, what a lot of consumers may not realize is that depression is rampant in the farming community right now because of the significant financial stress and even environmental stress that's on these farmers. The suicide rate is among the highest of any profession in the world, not just in the U.S. but in the world.
- [06:22]
Dan
It's also from a health point of view, it's one of the most dangerous professions. Parkinson's rates are extremely high. We know that's very much linked to pesticide and agrochemical use. So there's a lot of health cause it causes from dealing with all those agrochemicals as well for these farmers.
- [06:37]
Allen Williams
Oh, you know, the cancer rates have skyrocketed, you know, neurological disorders have skyrocketed. And then of course, all types of inflammatory disease due to obesity and just their diet, their daily diet, you know, because again, they're not eating any better than, than the average consumer. So the very things that you deal with on a daily basis as a medical doctor with a lot of consumers are the very things that the farmers themselves are dealing with as well. And the most discouraging thing is the lack of hope that we experience and encounter out there among the farming community. And that is why we do what we do, because we want to restore that hope and we want to give them an opportunity to not only be much more viable and profitable in their farming operations and be able to remove and separate themselves from all of these dependencies, but we also want to restore their quality of life. And that's what they're really missing today, Mark, is quality of life sucks. For many of these farmers.
- [07:48]
Dan
You know, it seems like very similar to what I do. You know, I see patients come in, their health is so degraded, just like the soil and the farm's degraded. They're stuck in the pharmaceutical trap, as opposed to the agricultural chemical trap, and diabetes on piles of medications, and they feel hopeless. And yet within a very short time of people changing their diet, they can unhook from the medical industrial complex, get off the medications, use food as medicine, lose tons of weight, and reverse their diabetes and all kinds of chronic illnesses pretty quickly, and it gives them hope. So I think, you know, you're offering the same message I think of what you do is Sort of regenerative agriculture. And what I do is regenerative medicine. I mean, functional medicine is ecosystem medicine. It's about treating the whole ecosystem and creating health within it as a way of creating a healthy person. We don't treat the disease, we treat the person's own constitution using natural principles to help restore function. And you do the same exact thing with agroecological systems and restore function as. And as a side effect, you don't need the agrochemicals, you don't need the specialized seeds, you don't need the fertilizer, and you have all these beneficial side effects. So the side effects of eating healthy and fixing these diseases are all good ones. And the side effects of doing this agriculture are all good ones. Right? You can conserve water, you restore soil carbon, you increase biodiversity, you increase the phytonutrient and density of the plants, the mineral content of the plant. I mean, it's just all these beneficial ripple effects. And the farmers make more money, they're happier. But it seems to me there's this. There's this barrier we have to overcome where people who are farmers don't see the situation that they're in, they're sort of locked in it and they can't see over the horizon to go. There's a different way. And how do they unhook from that incredible burden of debt and loans and crop insurance and their way their farms are set up and these sort of. The scale of it is so big. And I would love you to talk about, you know, how you work with these farmers to get them to one, see the light and to have the confidence to actually start to transition and what you're experiencing out there in the field. Because with your Soil Health Academy and Understanding Ag, you are actually out there running around the country, meeting with farmers in rural communities, helping them understand that there is a different way. And, you know, you share with me before that, you know, 10 years ago, you couldn't get 10 people in a room, and now your rooms are filled with 60 or 70 farmers looking for a different way. So how do you. How do you get them to cross that barrier? And what does that look like for the average farmer?
- [10:27]
Allen Williams
Yeah, so, excellent question. And the first thing is always education. You cannot implement and practice what you don't know. So they have to learn. And that's why we created the Soil Health Academy as that vehicle through which they can begin to get that education. And the academies are designed specifically to be able to help farmers go back to their farm, to their ranch, and implement these practices immediately. So our schools are designed, they're multi day, number one, because there's a lot of ground that we have to cover. Secondly, they're very hands on. Third, we always host them on a regenerative farm or ranch so that those in attendance get to see these practices actually being implemented and they get to see and experience the result of what happens and obviously be able to interact directly with those regenerative farmers and ranchers so that they can learn from them. So the educational process and that component is critical. And so we do a three day school initially for these farmers and ranchers with half the day in the classroom each day, half the day out in the field. I often say that all farmers are inherently from Missouri, the show me state. They always want you to show them, right?
- [11:58]
Dan
Yeah.
- [11:59]
Allen Williams
And farmers are very visual, very hands on. So that practical component is critical. But when we get them in the field, though, we reteach them how to be keen observers. As a medical doctor, you have learned that observation of your patients is one of your key tools, able to properly assess and diagnose and treat. And we have found the same thing in working with the soil and working with repairing ecosystems. That observation is absolutely crucial. So we teach them how to observe and we actually go through observational exercises with them each and every day. And you will be amazed at what happens here. It's almost like the cartoons where, you know, people have an idea and you see the light bulb above their head in the cartoon, you can almost see that, you know, in them, you see their eyes light up and get big and, and they're like, oh my God, I get it now, I get it now. And, and these are people that are, that have been out on the land their whole life, okay? But yet their, their eyes are open, their ears are hearing, and their noses are detecting the aromas. It's like for the very first time in their lifetime, these are things they've never observed. But then the second thing that we do, we started at the school and continue it afterwards, is we develop a network. We provide a network of support for these farmers because often what happens, their local communities do not support them. Because peer pressure in the farming community is far worse than it is in any elementary or junior high school, I promise you.
- [13:49]
Dan
What's that weird stuff that Joe's doing down the road on his farm? That's kind of weird.
- [13:53]
Allen Williams
Exactly.
- [13:54]
Dan
I was feeling it looks terrible. You know, it's kind of a mess, right?
- [14:00]
Allen Williams
So if you're not doing everything like your neighbors, they're going to let you know it and they're going to say, what in the heck do you think you're doing? And even your own family members will do that to you. And then of course, everybody that sells you something is doing that as well. Right? They're telling you you're an idiot for making any changes. And so we have to provide these farmers for them, be successful. They're being bombarded with that all the time. So we have to provide for them a brand new network, a network of support and encouragement and mentorship. And so that's the other thing that we provide through the Soil Health Academy and Understanding Ag. And then the third leg, we call it the three legged stool, the third leg of what we provide to help them be successful is that ongoing mentorship and consultation. Because as they start down this path, down their journey to regenerative agriculture, they are going to hit some roadblocks and some issues and challenges, just like anything else that you may change in your life. And they're going to need that, a little bit of ongoing support, just like you support your patients on an ongoing basis.
- [15:10]
Dan
So take like, you know, farmer that you met who's got 5,000 acres of soybean field, who's tied into Monsanto now bare, full on fertilizer, agrochemicals, tillage, big equipment locked in the banks. He goes home, he goes, here's your course. He gets so excited, he's like, I'm going to do this. What are the barriers and obstacles and how does he go from a monocrop or maybe two, two crops to a diversified, resilient, regenerative, organic farm?
- [15:45]
Allen Williams
Yeah, so excellent question.
- [15:47]
Dan
He may want to do it. I just imagine there's a lot of barriers that are set up within the system that prevent him from doing that and they don't support him with financial supports on the back end, like crop insurance that make him feel secure to do it. Because as a farmer, you're not making widgets in a factory. You can do any day, any night 24, seven. You deal with mother nature and weather and droughts and storms and floods and fires and all kinds of stuff.
- [16:11]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So how do you, how do they.
- [16:12]
Dan
How do they make that transition? Because I think that seems to be the biggest barrier.
- [16:16]
Allen Williams
Well, the, the very first thing that they have to understand and then start implementing are what we call the six principles of soil health. And obviously they get that sort of drilled into their heads during the academy. I'll give those to you and your listeners very, very quickly. The first one is context. You've got to understand the context of your farm. That includes goals and objectives, profitability targets, quality of life, even spiritual aspects. The whole bit and location. Absolutely. Environmental, everything.
- [16:50]
Dan
If you go to Saskatchewan or Mississippi, it's a little different.
- [16:53]
Allen Williams
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So you have to understand your context. And believe it or not, because of the constraints and the influences that many farmers have, you'll find that they truly do not fully understand their own context. And you have to help them with that. The next is we teach them to minimize disturbance. So one of the first things, the very first steps they can take when they go back home is to start significantly reducing the amount of tillage they do. Because the vast majority of farmers are still what we would call full till farmers. In other words, they're going out there and they're doing multiple rounds of plowing, you know, moldboard plowing, they may do chisel plowing, you know, disking, those types of things. So they're steadily churning up the soil and creating a lot of bare soil, releasing a lot of carbon. So the second step, beyond understanding context, is to transition them from full tillage to no till. That's actually a relatively easy transition. And most farmers can make that transition even within their first year on the vast majority of their land. So we teach them how to switch from full till to no till. That minimizes disturbance in the soil, and that's absolutely critical. The third thing is we teach them to keep that soil covered or armored. So again, the majority of farmers only have plants growing in their soil and covering that soil, an average, believe it or not, of only about 120 to 140 days a year. And the rest of the year that soil is bare. And that's creating enormous problems that we can talk about here in just a moment. But we teach them to keep the soil covered. So you're keeping it covered when you have your cash crop in the ground. But after the cash crop, you've got to follow that with diverse cover crop. And that cover crop then grows and keeps the soil armored and covered. So, and that's easy enough to accomplish as well. So we can, we can help them in their very first year, identify their context, minimize soil disturbance, and then plant cover crops to keep soil covered or armored. And that allows us to keep living roots, which is the fourth principle, living roots in the ground year round. So that allows us to accomplish that. Now what that does is that starts them down the path of reducing their reliance on synthetic fertilizers and on all of the chemicals the fungicides, the insecticides, the herbicides, and so forth. Because the living roots are the thing that stimulates and feeds the microbes in the soil and then allows those microbes, it fuels those microbes to be able to recharge the nutrient cycle, that mineral cycle in the soil, so that we can then start gradually reducing these required inputs. The fifth principle is diversity. And so we teach them to increase the diversity of their cash crop rotations and to also have highly diverse cover crop mixes that they're planting in between their cash crops. Diversity of plant species is critical. The work of Dr. Fred Provenza.
- [20:29]
Dan
Yeah, it was on my podcast.
- [20:31]
Allen Williams
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fred's wonderful, isn't he? And his book Nourishment is just fantastic. So I'd recommend that for all your readers as well as another book to read. But Fred's work has highlighted the critical importance of diversity and producing this broad array of phytochemicals, phytonutrients that are vital to soil health, plant health, ecosystem health, animal health, and of course, ultimately our health. And then the final principle, the sixth principle, is integrate livestock. So we teach these farmers, you know, the vast majority of row crop farmers today no longer have livestock. And for some of them, it can have been decades since they've had livestock. So we teach them to reintegrate livestock into that system, to more quickly recharge and re fertilize that system in a natural manner. And when you combine all six of those mark together, that's the magic. You combine all six of them together. And now they're making very rapid progress. So we start them on these six principles. Going down those steps, we encourage them to do their own farm research, and we help them with setting that up and doing that. It can be very, very simple. But, and I'll give you one quick example, I can give you many more, but one very quick example of how rapid this can be and how impactful it can be, is a farmer by the name of Adam Grady. Located in eastern North Carolina, the coastal plains of North Carolina. They're Adam's 10th generation. Their farm has been in their family since the 1780s. In 2017, that was their first year of regenerative agriculture, and they dove in with all six of these principles. In 2018, Hurricane Florence hit them, and they ended up with nine feet of water, floodwaters covering their farm. In just two years of regenerative agriculture. The resiliency, biological resiliency, created in just two years is what saved Adam and his family's farm, all of their Neighbors farms were just completely destroyed. Every, all the crops, all the pastures, everything turned completely brown from the floodwaters. Adam's green back up immediately. He was even able to get back in his fields two years after the floodwaters receded and plant diverse cover crops. He was the only farmer in his region that was able to graze his livestock actively through the winter. Everybody else was feeding hay and feed supplements and everything else because they had nothing to graze. And so, but also in 2018, in spite of the flood, okay, in spite of Hurricane Florence, they still saved on 12, on a 1200 acre farm, $200,000 in input cost in just their second year. At the end of his third year, at the end of 2019, right after Thanksgiving, and I still distinctly remember this, Adam called me up all excited. He said, allen, I just came back from a bank, I want to share something with you. I said, what is that, Adam? And he said, I just paid off all my loans at the bank and I just bought another farm paying all cash. Wow.
- [24:05]
Dan
Bought another foreign, paying all cash.
- [24:07]
Allen Williams
Exactly. So he. And so let me tell you what's happened.
- [24:11]
Dan
Farmers are afraid of the economic stress of transitioning because that'll cost them more, they'll lose money. There's a risk to it. But you're saying that the risk is just more theoretical. It's not actually true that if farmers follow these principles and are assiduous about it, they can actually quickly turn a profit, even in the first year.
- [24:31]
Allen Williams
That is exactly right. This does not. This is not a prescriptive or formulaic system that causes you to have to experience losses in the first one, two and three years. You still have all the tools available. You just learn to use them much more judiciously. And what this system does is it's adaptive. Rather than being formulaic, prescriptive, or like a recipe, it's adaptive. So you're constantly flexing and changing according to conditions. And just like with Adam, so he transitioned from all genetically modified crops to now he's planting all conventional seeds, so no more GM seed. He completely cut out all seed treatments. So no more neonicotinoid treatment.
- [25:23]
Dan
On any of those are pesticides.
- [25:26]
Allen Williams
Exactly. And you know, and just so your listeners know, there's, there's enough, according to the work of Dr. Jonathan Lundgren, there's enough neonic on a single kernel of corn to kill 100,000 honeybees.
- [25:43]
Dan
Wow.
- [25:44]
Allen Williams
Yeah, it's. It's amazing.
- [25:47]
Dan
Not a cob, but just a single.
- [25:49]
Allen Williams
Kernel, a single kernel, a single seed of corn that you would plant enough neonic to kill a hundred thousand honeybees. So Adam's been able to totally do away with seed treatment, so that's no longer an issue. He has been able to reduce his fertilizer use by 75% in just three years. He's reduced his fertilizer requirements by 75% and continuing to reduce that. He has done away with all fungicides. So no more fungicide treatments, no more insecticide treatments. So all of that has gone by the wayside. And so everything has improved and we've done a lot of tours and he's even hosted two soil health academies. And the benefits are just incredibly experiential. When you go there, you can see, smell, hear, taste the differences. Foreign.
- [26:49]
Dr. Mark Hyman
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- [27:21]
Evan
The story of how our internal microbiome, all these billions of bacteria and fungi, nematodes, how they are linked to soil, is still trying to be understood and told. It's not. The science is in its infancy. We know, of course, that our microbiome is a unique microbiome. Each one of us has a unique microbiome.
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Gabe
It's like a fingerprint.
- [27:47]
Evan
A fingerprint. It's not the same microbiome as soil, but we know that there is a lot of crosstalk. We evolved as these single celled creatures out of soil.
- [27:59]
Gabe
We all grew up in the dirt, right? Hunting and gathering.
- [28:03]
Evan
And over millennia, what's happened is that different microbes have found their distinct niches, but that they in fact do communicate. And this research is slowly, slowly coming out. And food is probably one of the really important shuttles that goes back and forth in terms of informing the two microbiomes and influencing them in different ways. But it's not to say that our microbiome is the same as soil microbiome.
- [28:34]
Gabe
But there's crosstalk, which is the concept of meta.
- [28:37]
Evan
There's absolutely genetic crosstalk. And that is one of the, you know, there is some interesting studies coming out and in fact fermented foods, which probably are the most important intermediary because in fact what these Foods are fermented with is soil bacteria that is on the food and then, you know, different forms of usually fungi and yeast that ferment.
- [29:02]
Gabe
Sort of like controlled food rotting.
- [29:04]
Evan
Right, controlled food rotting, otherwise known as sauerkraut. Right. And researchers are showing that it doesn't change our microbiome, but it can temporarily affect it.
- [29:16]
Gabe
It's like tourists going through economy, they.
- [29:18]
Evan
Improve the economy, they improve the situation. And Justin Sonnenberg's lab at Stanford is, I think, about to publish a paper. I know that they're in the final parts of the study looking at fermented food and its health of patients with different kinds of bowel symptoms. And I think it's actually IBS that they're looking at. And what they're finding is that they probably are more effective than all the packaged probiotics that people are trying to sell. And it makes sense because these foods actually they co evolved with us, unlike things that are invented in a lab.
- [30:00]
Gabe
And what's interesting you point out is that kids who grew up on farms or ranches don't get the same problems with allergies and asthma. Their immune system is developed in different ways that there's less problems with these kids health and they don't have ADD because they're out in nature all the time. Right.
- [30:18]
Evan
So yeah, there's, you know, people are referring to it as the farm effect, but there's a big multinational collaborative called the Gabriela Collaborative that was started by researchers in Europe. But there's actually research happening in the US now between the Amish and the Hutterite, two different farming communities. What they're trying to understand is why it is that children who are raised on sustainable farms have much lower rates of asthma and allergy as compared to children who are more conventional farming systems where they're using more chemicals and so on, and children who are raised in urban areas. The thought is once again that it is this micro microbiome. And you know, one could argue that the soil is probably the mother microbiome that's inoculating these sustainable farms. But they're finding, you know, that even the animals on these farms are probably influencing kids and dust in the hay and potentially even, you know, things that we typically think of as allergens in the city. But for some reason on these kids.
- [31:28]
Gabe
They are who grow hay, don't get hay fever.
- [31:32]
Evan
There you go.
- [31:34]
Gabe
I mean, this is something that's been noticed all globally, that in developing countries they don't have as much asthma or allergies or autoimmune disease. All these inflammatory diseases that are rampant in the United States really don't exist there, or at least in the same amounts. And the hypothesis is that we're just too clean. Right.
- [31:51]
Evan
The hygiene hypothesis, it's actually a little bit more complicated punchline. And it really has to do more with diversity. So we were plenty exposed to bacteria and bathed in bacteria and fungi and so on when you were to sample this room or urban environments in general. But what's happened, it's the same thing you remember I talked about from the macro to the micro. We're losing diversity on the planet of our animals and our plants and. And we are also losing diversity of our microscopic creatures, of our fungi and our bacteria and our nematodes and so on. That's happening in lockstep with the macro loss of diversity.
- [32:40]
Gabe
And just to stop, because it's an important point to emphasize. It's happening in the soil, but it's also happening in human microbiomes.
- [32:45]
Evan
Absolutely.
- [32:46]
Gabe
And the diversity of our gut bacteria is dramatically different than it was 100 or 1,000 years ago.
- [32:51]
Evan
Yeah. I mean, it's happening on plant microbiomes. It's happening everywhere. And it's all from the same cause, which is overexposure to bactericides and antibiotics and basically us growing very few types of crops so that we're just getting too much homogeneity in terms of our plant kingdom and pollution and, you know, poaching on wild areas and all of these things, you know. Yes. All the chemicals, the antibiotics, the pesticides, herbicides and so on. But that is probably more the reason why we're seeing asthma and allergy than just cleanliness per se. It's loss of diversity. And that's a really important concept for people to have because the way you protect people diversity and maintain that health resource is different than just getting dirty. It's really about thinking like an ecologist or a conservationist and trying to think, how do I preserve natural niches, how do I preserve them on farms, how do I preserve them in urban areas? How do we build cities that actually have places for butterflies and different kinds of insects to flourish and different kinds of plants, plants and different kinds of animals and so on. So it's a bit more of a complicated concept. And the danger of us just talking about hygiene is.
- [34:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, no, I think you're right.
- [34:27]
Gabe
I think that's a very important point. It is the complexity. And, you know, you bring that home also to medicine. Right. You're not just a farmer or gardener, you're a Doctor and you treat patients. And the insights that you've had about disease are quite unusual for a physician, which is that you move from the reductionist view of disease to a more deeper understanding that disease is really complex, that there's a complexity of biology, that we are a complex, adaptive, dynamic system that's constantly changing, and that things like redundancy and diversity are important for our own health and it's not something we learn about. How do you kind of hold that in medicine? What do you do with that information?
- [35:08]
Evan
Absolutely. I mean, I wish that everybody who, who decided to become a doctor or a nurse or a nurse practitioner or just any kind of healer in healthcare spent two years working with ecologists or farmers or someone who works with natural systems.
- [35:29]
Gabe
And by the way, we are one.
- [35:31]
Evan
Yeah, we are one. And being able to actually see it sort of display itself. Cause it's, it's actually hard to understand our natural system. A lot of it's tucked inside of us and quite invisible, and we have to take other people's words for it.
- [35:46]
Gabe
Yeah.
- [35:47]
Evan
But when you're in nature and understanding how complex those systems are and the trophic levels and unintended consequences and how everything interacts, it gives you an enormous amount of humility and respect for these, you know, these structures and makes you realize that, you know, the true meaning of first do no harm.
- [36:14]
Gabe
Yeah. So the, you know, the biology we have is really complex, like you said. And I learned a fact recently that kind of blew my mind, which is, you know, we all learn biochemistry and all the pathways. Well, we think we learned all the pathways, but we didn't. There's 37 billion billion chemical reactions in the body every second. That's 37 with 21 zeros. It's hard to.
- [36:34]
Evan
I have to take your word for that.
- [36:35]
Gabe
I don't know, it's hard to fathom. And the complexity of that and everything cross talking to everything else. We're an ecosystem. So in a sense, doctors need to be ecologists, is what you're saying.
- [36:46]
Evan
Absolutely. And so when we do these soil labs for health practitioners, that's exactly what we do. And they start the lab in a soil pit on a farm in the Central Valley in California, which is, by the way, an ecology or an ecological niche where, you know, our, A lot of our food comes from. And it's a. It's a very challenging place. It gets 7 inches of rain a year and has that amazing topsoil, which is what is generates. Our food is incredibly, you know, thin and it's getting Thinner and we dig these soil pits so they can see the soil layers and get in there and start to extend experience. Like this is, this is what's pumping out nutrition not only for the United States, but for the world. I mean, grow so much of, you know, the almonds and you know, other stuff that gets exported to other places. That's the true nourishment. You know, not just the corn and the soil, but, you know, California is really where our nutrient dense food is growing. And for them to start to understand that this is something that a, we have to absolutely protect and that we need to get involved in working with farmers to make sure that we can increase this lifeblood, you know, for our country. Because right now we're under producing the amount of, for even with the current population we have in the US we are not producing enough fruits and vegetables.
- [38:19]
Gabe
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I.
- [38:20]
Unknown
Don'T know if, if this is right.
- [38:21]
Gabe
But I heard or read once that if everybody in America ate the five to nine recommended servings of fruits and vegetables a day, that we'd only have enough for 2% of the population.
- [38:31]
Evan
It might not be that low. But we're, we're probably in terms of just what we're producing in the U.S. it's, we're, we are falling short by about two thirds just for like the Harvard recommended. Yeah. Five to seven a day. And even with imports, we're still falling way short. So we are not nutrient secure as a nation. We're producing tons of sugar in the form of corn and soy and so on. Way more than we need, but not enough of a lot of the macro and micronutrients.
- [39:11]
Gabe
Yeah. And by the way, the soil that you talk about is the source of the nutrients in our food. So even if you're eating the best organic food grown, the best organic soil, the nutrient levels in our soil have declined 90% last 100 years. And organic is better and they're more nutrient dense. But even still we're not.
- [39:31]
Evan
I don't know if I agree with that. Where did you get that data?
- [39:36]
Gabe
I'll send you the references.
- [39:37]
Evan
You might be referring to a piece that was actually done right here in Austin at University of Texas. And his name is Ronald Davis, I think. But if you read that study, he does not say that it's because of the soil. It's because we've changed our varietals of fruits and vegetables so dramatically. We are now choosing seeds basically for their ability to produce a lot, to be able to travel long distance. And to not go bad on the shelves. So the kinds, the varieties of carrot that we're growing are different than they were in the 30s and 40s. But I have not seen a lot of evidence that our soil in us has been depleted enough to actually change the nutrient content of our food. I would.
- [40:27]
Gabe
I'll share it with you.
- [40:28]
Dan
I'll share with you.
- [40:29]
Evan
To the science.
- [40:31]
Gabe
I'll share with you.
- [40:31]
Evan
Studies.
- [40:32]
Gabe
Because I literally just gave a talk about this.
- [40:34]
Evan
Yeah. But you might need to go back and look at the actual research. Research. Because it is. It is. I. I will be amazed.
- [40:42]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Okay, I'll share with you.
- [40:43]
Gabe
There were scientific papers. I'm not making it up, I promise.
- [40:46]
Evan
Yeah, but a lot of people read those studies and they blame it on the soil. And believe me, I would love.
- [40:51]
Dr. Mark Hyman
No, no.
- [40:52]
Gabe
The studies are of the soil, looking at the soil nutrient content.
- [40:57]
Evan
Oh, I see. So not translating it into the nutrient content of the food.
- [41:02]
Gabe
Well, the food. Food gets its nutrients from the soil, right?
- [41:06]
Evan
Yeah, but there's. They're not the same, of course. Yeah. So you can actually have a big shift in the nutrient contents of the soil and end up with the exact same nutrient density in the food. Because these plants are actually unbelievably, you know, microbes in the soil. And the plants themselves are really efficient at scavenging nutrients.
- [41:26]
Gabe
But isn't the problem that most of our soil in this country has become more sterile? It's become more like dirt instead of soil, or.
- [41:33]
Evan
It's hard to say. And we are at a point where that certainly might happen in the future. And there are parts of the world where massive amounts of soil depletion have gone on. But it probably is incorrect to say that we are at that point in the US we still are actually.
- [41:51]
Gabe
We're working towards it.
- [41:52]
Evan
Some of the richest soil in the world. And it's more a matter of starting to use the right practices now to really protect it. But to say that food is less nutritious because of the soil in us is not exactly.
- [42:15]
Gabe
All right, well, we'll dig those studies.
- [42:16]
Allen Williams
Up and share them and we can continue the conversation.
- [42:19]
Gabe
I think that the concept of a doctor being ecologist is a really kind of new idea. Right. And I think that science is sort of catching up with that. I recently got a new textbook called Network Medicine about the body as a network, as an ecosystem, and how we need to rethink science and how we research things and the complexity of the human body and these biological networks that are driving health and disease. We don't Think like that. As doctors, we think, okay, I'm this specialist and I take care of this disease or this siloed problem instead of really understanding how everything connects together. And that's.
- [42:57]
Evan
Yeah, sadly, that is true. I'm finding with a lot of the students and young doctors that I work with, though, that there really is a very different way of thinking. And I'm hopeful for the future of medicine, especially if I can get a lot of them into those soil pits.
- [43:15]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [43:16]
Gabe
I love the idea of having doctors go out and work on a farm. In fact, I actually took a course in biological agriculture when I was in college and got to grow food and learn about food and learn about ecosystems and learn about sustainability. And I was kind of a weirdo, but it was a really important part of my education because I began to understand that relationship. But I think your emphasis on the idea that farm is medicine as well as food is medicine, as well as parks are medicine, is a really important contribution to our conversation because the average person is not thinking about the average doctor's not thinking about it. And then when you follow it down the chain, what are the implications of this? Right. How do we change what we're doing so that we actually can get it right on track?
- [44:02]
Unknown
Basically, what we uncover on film is how Monsanto has effectively been secretly micro financing.
- [44:08]
Yeah.
- [44:08]
Most of the university agricultural curriculum in this country. 40 years now. We uncover the money pipeline.
- [44:16]
Yeah.
- [44:17]
Because if you think about it, if Monsanto or anyone wanted to write, you know, whatever, a $75 million check to university, whatever Texas A&M or UT or something, people would know.
- [44:32]
That's right.
- [44:33]
If they wanted to write, you know, ten, seven and a half million dollar checks, people would know. Even a $750,000 check, people would take notice.
- [44:41]
Yeah.
- [44:41]
But no one's looking at 10, 20, 30, $50,000 checks.
- [44:45]
Yeah. So they're doing slowly, slowly.
- [44:47]
So you just feed the system.
- [44:49]
Yeah.
- [44:50]
And then you buy the best science money can buy. And then the congressional lawmakers allow it to go through. Because, listen, I mean, I'm not defending their practices, but think about this from a numbers perspective. Perspective. There's 23. I think you would know this better than me because you really are the policy guy. There's 23 agrochemical lobbyists per member of Congress.
- [45:10]
Yeah. It's crazy.
- [45:11]
So think about it. So you're. So you're. You're a congressional lawmaker.
- [45:15]
Right.
- [45:15]
Hey, Mark, listen, man, why. Don't. Let's just go to the Bahamas this Weekend. We got a great house down there, my wife and I. You know, your wife's gonna look really great in this mink coat we got from, you know, whatever sacks or whatever it is. And, and so from a numbers perspective, that's two people a month that are coming at you for something. Well, even if it only takes up a week or two a month. Think about how much noise that is.
- [45:39]
No, no, they, they really hear from industry. They don't really hear from people like you and I. And that's, you know, why it makes a difference.
- [45:46]
Gabe
When we go in, they go, wow.
- [45:47]
Unknown
I didn't really understand this and I didn't know about this. And the level of awareness and education is very low. And once they start to hear the stories now, that's why they start to shift now.
- [45:56]
That's why we have this, this change. And it's amazing. Listen, this is all not doom and gloom. This is really powerful stuff.
- [46:03]
And it has to. And the policies have to happen. You know, one of the things that you're talking about just to give people context, is land grant colleges, which were established by Abraham Lincoln to build, you know, curriculum for building an agricultural nation. And so these land grant colleges are funded in large part by the government, but they're also funded by agrochemical. Agrochemical companies who are highly influential in determining what the science they do and what the studies they do are and, and what the results are and so, and what the curriculum is. Because then the, the students of these land grant colleges come out thinking that.
- [46:37]
They need all these.
- [46:37]
Farming is, is the only way to go. And, and I was talking to Michael Pollan recently about this, like, come on. And he was like, when I wrote, when I wrote Omnivore's Dilemma, I was supposed to give a talk at Caltech. And they cancel my talk because the. One of the ranchers who's in a, you know, cafo, you know, industrial meat, meat farming, meat factory, basically funded huge amounts of money to this, to Caltech. And he just said he can't come and they get rid of him. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that goes on, you know, and this sort.
- [47:11]
Of right under our noses. Yeah, but not for much longer.
- [47:14]
Yeah.
- [47:15]
Speaker Johnson is a Louisiana boy like I am. There's a lot of, there are a lot of people from a lot of small towns who get this.
- [47:23]
And the farmers are, you know, like, I, you know, I don't know if you know Fred Provenza. Do you know Fred Provenza? He's an amazing guy. He was studied Behavioral ecology and looked at, you know, animals and plants and soil and humans. He's incredible. Wrote a book called Nourishment which everybody should get. He's been on the podcast a couple of times.
- [47:40]
Oh, I gotta read this.
- [47:41]
And he, you know, he's talking about how he was going around teaching about this to farmers and then, you know, it used to be like one or two people in the room and now it's just filled. And people, the farmers and the ranchers are desperate to change because they see the failure and the, the failure of the system. The failure, no resilience to actually make money, to make a living. And they're, they're struggling, right. And they understand that something's broken and they're looking for a different way.
- [48:05]
By the way, you know, that was another thing. You know it, you do it too. We're, we're formulators. Right. So when we were building out the formulas for the absorption company, we started with just four use cases, right. It was restore calm, which really chills people out and it just gets you to that place where it quiets the noise. And I needed that too. Energy, which is I live on. And then sleep. And the reason we started with those four things was how can we get people to have better days so that they have better weeks, they have better months and then eventually those months string out into years and then the year string out into a lifetime. And this is something you and I have talked about at great length. Happy, healthy people build happy, healthy societies by making happy, healthy choices. It's unimpeachable information, right? So again, man, it goes back to. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm putting together this amazing program for farmers where I'm going to start sending these to a lot of these hard working farmers because you just like, you feel the lift.
- [49:12]
Yeah.
- [49:12]
And better sleep. Especially when you're stressed about crops, finances, all that stuff, you need to get that good sleep. So I'm, I'm doing this program and I'm going to put some spend behind it where I just get it to farmers, just get it to people who are busting their asses in the field. You know, if you've ever been on a combine or you've ever been on a harvester at you know, 5:30 in the morning.
- [49:35]
Yeah.
- [49:37]
After you couldn't sleep all night. And this is now, you know, three, four weeks in a row, you start to deplete in a way. Listen, a very dear brother of mine is building a bank and I was really fortunate enough to to consult with them. Not, not non paid. But I got to work with these, these like Nobel laureate behavioral psychologists. I mean, these people, they know a lot about humanity. Right. And one of the things we were talking about was there's. And this is a term, you know, because you're a doctor. Eco anxiety.
- [50:04]
Eco anxiety.
- [50:05]
It's a real diagnosable term at this point. And there's 27 million young Americans that are basically. Think about it, you're young, you're trying to figure out what you're doing with your future. There's famine, wars, droughts, there's a broken food system, broken water system, broken political systems. Everything's broken.
- [50:25]
Gabe
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Unknown
You go into college, you're going to end up with a $200,000 debt, but you're going up with a $30,000 job.
- [50:31]
Yeah.
- [50:31]
And they, so they feel this weight. Wait, wait. And then they just end up doing this and then what do they do? And it's eco anxiety.
- [50:38]
Yeah.
- [50:39]
So the idea is to lift them back out of that. Where you realize this is what I always say to people. It's not all doom and gloom because I see the data, I know it's coming down the pipeline. We are actually about to balance our climate. We're going to rebuild our food systems, we're going to rebuild our economy, and we're going to do it all through food.
- [50:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
- [50:59]
Unknown
And that is the most amazing thing. You know, I always hear people like, joke, sort of like coastal elites talk about the flyover states. There are no flyover states, dude. Those states are. There are the rock stars of the country. It's not just the breadbasket. They're going to be the greatest bio sequesters of carbon dioxide that we have.
- [51:20]
Yeah.
- [51:20]
There are life's blood. And the people running those, those farms and those businesses are our brothers and sisters and they're crushing it. And so what we're going to do is arm them with all this amazing, you know, not even technology. It's old technology since it's old as dirt. Yeah, it's a really, you know, you.
- [51:39]
Know, I'm sure you heard Gabe pound tell the story, but he had this. Who's this farmer who's been on the podcast and he, he's a go link.
- [51:46]
To that One of our Greatest Heroes show.
- [51:47]
But he's an incredible guy who was a traditional farmer in North Dakota spraying chemicals, doing all that for years, which is probably why he got ALS to be sprayed.
- [51:57]
And I can't say 100%. You know, he had all these bad.
- [52:01]
Years of drought and hail and five years of hell. It was just a mess. And then somehow he got Thomas Jefferson's journals about farming practices and started to incorporate some of these practices that.
- [52:13]
Isn't that amazing?
- [52:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
- [52:15]
Unknown
Restored his farm and restored the soil. And, and he's such a hero. And he's, he's really a key part of these films, Kiss the Ground and Common Ground, which everybody really should see. These really powerful, moving films to help you understand.
- [52:29]
Thanks.
- [52:30]
What the food system is, why it's broken, why it starts on the farm, in the soil.
- [52:35]
Yeah.
- [52:35]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And.
- [52:36]
Unknown
And how if we change that, we change everything. Right?
- [52:38]
Change everything.
- [52:39]
You're kind of linking all together, but not only do we restore the soil, ecosystems, restore biodiversity, protect our water resources, not only do we prevent the chemical pesticides that are harming humans, but we also produce food that's more nutritious. That solves a lot of our chronic disease epidemic. We help the farmers have more economic kind of health and wealth and inclusive.
- [53:02]
With farmers, by the way, you're not even thinking. We haven't even touched on the fact of the, the, the social dynamics and the ethnicity of farming. You know, the amount of young farmers coming into the fold. Indigenous.
- [53:19]
Yeah.
- [53:20]
Black, brown, you know, purple, like it doesn't matter who you are. And one of the more exciting. One of the more exciting things is too, the indigenous cultures are about to thrive. You know, a lot of these reservations are going to become these, these, these regenerative giants.
- [53:38]
Yeah. Going back to their indigenous.
- [53:40]
Going back to their indigenous practices and allowing them to make a ton of money and. Oh, man, who was I just talking to? He's amazing. Such a powerhouse. But, you know, I want to say in 1930, I'll have to go back.
- [53:54]
Dan
I've.
- [53:55]
Unknown
I have such dad brain, dude. I was up every hour.
- [53:58]
Dan
You got little kids every hour on.
- [54:00]
Unknown
The hour last night with my son screaming into the monitor because he's not feeling great. But I think in 1930 there were a million black farmers.
- [54:08]
Yeah.
- [54:09]
And now there's 50,000.
- [54:10]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
- [54:11]
Unknown
And now they're, they're coming back and they're bringing this incredible indigenous knowledge that they have into the food system and thriving and growing. And that is, that's what America. That's what makes America so incredible. When we all come together, I'm not trying to sound like some cliche out of some, like, you know, newspaper clipping. When we all come together and we lift each other up, that's when we win. And getting farmers off the drip of the agrochemicals and then you Know the other side of my life is keeping them fueled with things that actually work. You know, Geez, dude, like the future is bright. Get your sunglasses and you're, and you're.
- [54:53]
Doing this like you're living this. You, you, you have a farm, you have animals and food and tell us about your kind of what we.
- [55:01]
My, my wife, she's the animal whisperer.
- [55:04]
It's like Green Acres. You went from like Hollywood to the Beverly Hillbillies.
- [55:08]
Yeah, Green Acres. But it's.
- [55:10]
That's dating me actually I used to watch that.
- [55:15]
You know, I, this is why I called my mom on the way here to thank her for that base. And, and one of the things is too, I realized we can't build a great society without unbelievably well rounded grounded children. My experience as a child, you know, I had the big, you know, our, my farming uncle and aunt cousins were very successful. They were the ones that always had all the money. It's also where my love of flying came from because he had Beechcraft Aircraft that, you know that, that the aircraft that I used to fly in. And that's where I grew my great love of flying.
- [55:55]
But you died in a Beechcraft and lost.
- [55:58]
I know. I was like, I felt so bad. As I was saying before we were rolling, I said that to J.J. abrams and Damon. I was like, guys, this is embarrassing. I fell 30,000ft out of an L1011 and survived. And then I fell 30ft out of a beachcraft and died. But you know, those experiences as children, Now I'm. I'm 46 in a month and change.
- [56:25]
Yeah.
- [56:26]
All of those systems that I was exposed to are now playing out. Supplements, health and wellness. I have a whiskey company with a lot of, lot of, A lot of connection to bourbon in the south and the familial component. But that also spans. That's into my agriculture side. Between my wife and I, she's got jewelry that she created this closed loop, you know, basically completely sustainable model for luxury jewelry. Crushed it, launched, did their first deal with Michael Dell and it just crushed it.
- [56:59]
Great. Yeah.
- [57:00]
Well, he had all this gold because Michael Dell just said, hey listen, I there all of these computers and landfills and my name on it. Fix this.
- [57:08]
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:09]
So he started using a hot water process to extract all sustainable, but extract all the heavy metals from microprocessors and gold and silver and stuff. And they end up with all this gold and they didn't know what to do with it. So my wife, so Nikki, Nikki reed at like 27 years old, 28 years old, calls Michael Dell and says, I know what you can do with that gold. You're going to give it to me. You're going to sign a multi year deal with me. I'm going to build a sustainable luxury jewelry line out of it and it's going to sell out in like a week. So they did that. She went to ces, the consumer electronics show in Vegas, representing Dell.
- [57:46]
That's crazy.
- [57:48]
On a stage. And it sold out. The whole collection sold out in 36 hours.
- [57:51]
Wow.
- [57:52]
So that's when they knew like. So she created that whole system much like we did with building a regenerative whiskey company. And now we have absorbed. So we have these two parents that came from the entertainment world. By the way, our daughter still doesn't know what we do, who are now between two parents. Yeah, right. Two parents running, building three companies simultaneously, very successful companies simultaneously. Which I'm, you know, I'm going to do 110 flights this year. It's not. I am your model, I'm your anti model patient. I am, you know, my adrenal, my system is broken down and to be honest with you, it's not like some shameless plugs.
- [58:38]
You're working too hard.
- [58:38]
But I wouldn't be able to do what I do had I not built this company. Yeah, I just, if I didn't have the absorption company. I'm not even kidding. There is no possible way you could do what I do and then still get up and maneuver at this level and pace a lot.
- [58:52]
Like, you know, you got a farm, you got kids, you've got, oh man.
- [58:56]
20 films or 6, 26 animals or something crazy like that. And you know, we just released my wife, we just released, we just got another, introduced another horse into the, to the herd yesterday and so worried that they were treating him well throughout the night, you know, the other horses. The other horses, yeah. And, and they did fortunately, you know, checking on him early this morning. But like, like our daughter, rather than worrying about eco anxiety or, or some digital, you know, bs, that was her biggest worry last night was, is, is, is our horse going to be okay and I'm going to check on him in the morning before school and you know what I mean, like that she's.
- [59:38]
Connected to the, nature to these, these.
- [59:42]
You know, these incredible.
- [59:44]
I mean that's just sort of what we need. Our kids are so not connected to nature. This Nature deficit disorder, not ADD, you know, but exactly.
- [59:52]
But that's about to change. Dr. Mark, what we're doing when we launch Common Ground, you know, we repackaged Kiss the Ground. Now Common Ground is going out. This film changes lives. And with your help and your hard work and ours, we're changing policy. And this is what I said in in Vegas, not Vegas, sorry, D.C. very similar. Yeah, in a way. But that's what I just said in D.C. which is because anytime you go and you do all the circuit in dc, it's all about policy. It's policy. It's policy. It's policy. Yeah, policy is important. But this isn't just about policy. This is about good policy helping good people. And that's where we win. And that's what I said.
- [60:37]
Well, so yeah, the triple win, the earth wins, the farmers win, people win, the government win, everybody wins.
- [60:43]
Because when the. When more people make more money, they pay taxes rather than just a few big agrochemical companies that don't pay any taxes, most likely. This is how we build our society. This is how we build our communities.
- [60:56]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Don't forget there's a way to listen completely ad free with Hyman on Apple Podcasts. You can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap try free to start your seven day free trial. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. Don't forget, there's a way to listen completely ad free with Hyman on Apple Podcasts. You can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap try free to start your seven day free trial. You can find me on all social media channels at DrMark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Dr. Hyman show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel, Rmark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on the Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness center, my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner and if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness center at ultrawellnesscenter.com and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public, so I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible. Thanks so much again for listening.