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The Dr. Hyman Show
Why Love Feels So Hard — And How to Finally Feel Safe in Your Relationships (with Jillian Turecki)
01:08:22
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- [00:00]
A
What you're afraid of is that you are not good enough and that because you're not good enough, you are somehow going to be deprived of love. That is the fear that underlies all problems in relationships.
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Jillian Tearecki is a renowned relationship expert. She's a New York Times bestselling author. She's a host of the podcast Jillian on Love. Jillian has helped millions of people over the last 20 years to revolutionize their relationship with themselves so that they can transform their romantic relationships. We reached out to our audience, we let them know you were coming on the podcast. And the number one topic they wanted to know about was emotional regulation and managing triggers.
- [00:34]
A
Nine times outta 10, we're projecting. We're not seeing our partner, we're seeing our ex, we're seeing mom, we're seeing dad. And we're seeing things that we haven't resolved inside ourselves and making our partner the enemy. This is the most important key to self regulation, is stopping the story inside your head. That is making your partner into the enemy.
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B
How can couples rebuild a connection if it's faded or it's lost?
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A
You cannot change another person. You can only change yourself. You have to have the mindset of I'm gonna show up in the best way that I possibly can for me, and if it changes things, great. And if it doesn't, then I know that maybe this isn't the right relationship for me.
- [01:14]
B
Talk about heartbreak, because I think it is something people really struggle with.
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A
People write into me all the time saying, it's been two years, when am I gonna get over this person? And what I've discovered is that they're not really grieving the relationship anymore. They are actually stuck in the story of what happened. Number two, something else is going on in their life that is making it difficult to move on. They can't get themselves out of the emotional state of sadness or whatever, the grief, because there's other things that are not working in their life. So therefore, the path to healing is.
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B
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Have you?
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm an expert in relationships now, honestly. Exactly. So much experience. So, you know, I want to dive in first by asking you about your own story because, you know, you didn't sort of come into the world born with these insights that you've developed around love and relationships. They've. They've come after a lot of hardship and your own struggles and your own childhood challenges and with your parents that. That led to sort of a whole bunch of stuff that was kind of not right in you and that you had to heal. And I'd love you to just sort of maybe share your personal Story of heartbreak, loss, transformation, your mother's death, your divorce, all the things that you struggle with to help you understand that it's not the other person. It's, it's. It begins with you, which is the title of your book, which is what we're going to be talking about. Everybody definitely get a copy of that book. It's out now. It begins with you, basically about how to heal your relationships and heal yourself. And I think it's an incredible book. So thank you for writing it. But let's dive into your story.
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A
I taught yoga for many years, almost like 20 years in New York City. So I was always obsessed with the relationship between the mind and the body. I was always obsessed with how do we deepen our relationship with self? And, and that includes our minds and our bodies. I was teaching yoga and always felt like there was something more that I wanted to do with my life. I. But I didn't know what that was. And also I was very much what many women want, especially in their, you know, 20s and 30s. They want to get married and have kids. So I was, I didn't know. I wasn't raised, I was raised with the, the understanding that you just follow certain rules like you follow, like the way things are supposed to be done. Like I was supposed to have a job and have a 401k and get married and have kids. And I was like, no, I'm going to be yoga teacher. I'm not going to have a 401k, but I'll get married. And I met the man who would become my husband and then my ex husband. And I always say that our relationship before we got married was about 90% great and 10% extremely problematic problem, but really problematic like the things that, that you shouldn't ignore. But we think that marriage, a lot of people think, and a lot of women think that marriage is that ultimate commitment that's going to give her the security that she needs to feel comfortable in life. But the reality is that marriage just magnifies, you know, that 10% became the 90%, and the 90% that was good actually became the 10%. So it was a very challenging marriage and I felt very lost in it. I didn't know what to do. And towards the, the right before or about six months before we, we ended it, my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. But the morning of June 2, 2014, I woke up to a miscarriage. And he decided to leave the marriage. Via text, he said he wasn't coming home. And days prior, I had just discovered that My. I was just told that my mother only had about a couple months left to live.
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B
Got it coming and going.
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A
Yeah, I, Yeah, it was, it was just, it was, it was, it was, it was a terrible day. And so I had. That was a day where just my whole world fell apart. And I remember distinctly having this thought like, oh, this is what it means for your life to fall apart. And it was a very shocking time. And I, you know, it took me a long time to really pick myself off the ground and to pick up the pieces. But I became obsessed with two things during that time. Number one, how am I going to get myself out of this hole? Like, how am I going to feel better? How am I going to move on? And then number two, which was, was the. Was, which is the obsession I continue to have to this day is what makes a relationship work. Because I was shocked, devastated and beside myself that I was in this position that this didn't work. And it was a real moment of, I guess I have to look in the mirror.
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B
Reckoning.
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A
Yes.
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B
So that's when you kind of came up with the idea. It begins with you. Like maybe there's something.
- [08:34]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think.
- [08:36]
B
How you were showing up or yeah, I see. Or patterns were.
- [08:40]
A
I think there was just that moment of, you know, I am the common denominator, you know, in all my relationships. That doesn't mean that I am the problem. It doesn't mean that I am the only problem. It just means that my relationships are a reflection of my choices. They are a reflection of my capacity. They are a reflection of my skill set or lack thereof. They are a reflection of my self esteem and self worth. They are a reflection of my childhood conditioning. I had to take a look.
- [09:16]
B
Well, it's so interesting that you bring up the childhood conditioning because it, you know, we think we're grownups and adults and we've evolved and developed as human beings. And then you get in relationship and so like what Rob Dust says, you think you're enlightened and then you go home for Thanksgiving.
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A
Yes, exactly. Then you spend time with family.
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B
Yeah, exactly. And so I think this is the true of relationships. After couples are together for a while, the, the electricity kind of dims a little bit. The sparks stop flying as, as intensely. But the reality of, of their original childhood love software emerges, which is based a lot on how we experienced our parents, how they treated us, how they treated each other, the models we had, the beliefs we basically formed as a result of that, and how we carry those unconsciously into our relationships and how those really form the basis of our dysfunction in relationships. And then we have to figure out how to unpack that and repair that and to kind of rewrite our corrupted love software. And I certainly had to do that in my life, and it was incredibly painful, difficult process. But. But I think, you know, there's no roadmap for this. And your book, It Begins with you, is kind of a roadmap for this. And we reached out to our audience at YouTube and we let them know you were coming on the podcast. And the number one topic they wanted to know about was emotional regulation and managing triggers. You know, I once heard that triggers are your teachers. If you get triggered, that's a good thing because it means there's something to look at. You know, maybe there's something with your partner, really, that you need to pay attention to, or maybe it's something unresolved in you that you're projecting on your partner and creating chaos. So how do we kind of understand if it's old trauma in our childhood software or whether it's something in the moment that really is real? And how do you regulate yourself in the heat of all this triggers to kind of manage that? And how do you recognize this emotional dysregulation? Because I've seen it a lot. I've seen it in partners, I've seen it in friends. Just people come apart, and then they can't hold a steady state of being in the present moment with their partner in their adult self. It's like. I call it the amygdala hijack. It's like your amygdala is your fight or flight part of your brain. So your amygdala hijacks the stage and takes over.
- [11:26]
A
Yeah. And then when that takes over, isn't it also referred to as the reptilian brain? And so there were no longer actually behaving like human beings. We're kind of really in our most primal state, reacting.
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B
Dinosaurs.
- [11:38]
A
Dinosaurs, Exactly. So there's a lot to unpack here. The first thing that I want to say is that it's not just. It's not just our love software from childhood. It's cultural as well. We don't live in a culture that. That romanticizes romanticism, that. That. That sees love as what? As lust. So we are. We are. We've been taught by society, by art, and by cultural narratives that that loving someone is actually lust when it's not. Those are two very different things. Now, a lot of relationships fall apart because of two things One is, two people are not actually doing what it takes to keep some of that passion alive. You know, they don't. The passion is very motivating. When we feel passionate about anyone or anything, that's what motivates us.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In a relationship and a long term relationship, that passion, what changes is that in the beginning you just feel it because you're under the spell of chemistry and attraction. Which is, which is very, as, as I'm sure you can, can attest to, is very biological and very hormonal. Right. There's, there's all these hormonal flares that are happening. Then to keep the passion alive, we actually have to be more passionate in the relationship. We're thinking that it actually is something that's coming outside of ourselves versus being curious about the person versus like bringing some of that passion home to our relationship and then also understanding that like all that crazy chemistry in the beginning of a relationship is not an emotional connection, that's something else. And if you can learn to value the friendship part, then that's, then that is actually going to be what's going to help you have a longer relationship. So I just, we're, I, we're going to get to the emotional.
- [13:46]
B
You want to marry your best friend kind of what you're saying.
- [13:48]
A
Well, you know, it's so interesting. Yes. And yes, you want to marry your best friend because of, if you want to be in a relationship over the long haul, don't you want someone who you can trust and you can, who you know really has your back when your mom dies, when your dad dies, when, God forbid, your child dies when something terrible happens? Yeah, you want your best friend. You don't want the person who's just great in bed, who you can't trust. That's the last person you want when this shit hits the fan in your life. But at the same time, you don't want, you don't want to just nurture the friendship. You also want to nurture the passion part of the relationship. Anyway, so I really felt like that was important because we tend to blame everything on childhood, childhood trauma and it's just simply that it plays a role. But it's not everything we have to understand just our conditioning of just watching a rom com and that we don't understand what it really means to love someone. Okay. So getting back into self regulation when we're triggered. Yeah, it's really hard. And some people like, I'm a very fiery person. So it's like if I get upset about something, like I'M gonna get really upset, right? And like we, and some people are just more reactive than others. And, and part of that is cultural. You know, I know two people who are married. He comes from an Italian family, she comes from a Nordic family.
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B
So like totally different.
- [15:21]
A
Totally different. So when he's, when he's happy, he is really happy. When he's upset, he is really upset. And he talks with his hands and there's so much drama. And she's more res. Now, interestingly enough, that's part of what attracted them to each other because they're so different. But how are they going to be with conflict and self regulation? So she might be totally dysregulated and triggered, but her go to might be to. To shut down, to get cold as ice, to pull away. He might just get angry or loud. And so what they have to both understand is that one, they are responding to each other's different styles. Number two, he needs to go take a walk. She probably needs to go take a walk. And so the self regulation, when you're triggered. You said something about projection. Nine times out of 10, we're projecting. Nine times out of 10, We. When we're upset with our partner. And of course this, this is not always. Sometimes our partner legitimately does something that upsets us, of course. But nine times out of 10, we're not seeing our partner, we're seeing our ex, we're seeing mom, we're seeing dad, and we're seeing things that we haven't resolved inside ourselves and, and making our partner the enemy. This is the most important key to self regulation is stopping the story inside your head. That is making your partner into the enemy.
- [16:56]
B
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- [19:12]
A
Yes. Yes. So in the moment, you take a deep breath. You take a deep breath and you say, I'm gonna, you know, pause and go away. Yeah, pause. Go for a walk. I don't know, go work out, take a shower, take a nap. Maybe you need a drink of water. Maybe you need a little food. You know, maybe you're hungry.
- [19:33]
B
One of the biggest unlocks in this situation is an interesting one, which is I was sort of taught by my friend who's a life coach, Lauren Zander. And, you know, she basically said, if you can. If you can only have one crazy person in the room at a time, that's kind of the rule. And so someone's kind of in their amygdala or their reptilian brain, the other person has to breathe and let it all be received and not put meaning on it, not defend it, not try to argue with it, not try to fight it, because that's just going to make it worse. And so you kind of reflect back that you get what they're saying that you. That they feel heard, they feel understood, they feel validated. Even if you think they're 100% wrong, they're still entitled to their perspective and opinion. And as soon as you do that, it often transmutes. You don't have to fix it or change it. And it's kind of like a party trick, but it really works. And I've used it in live situations where the other person was just kind of really out of control. And just by actually feeling validated in their perspective and seen and heard, it diffuses all that energy. But it's really hard to hold in your body because you have to be like a, you know, the kind of like a what's the world? Kind of like water, like the Dallas. You just let it flow and not let, you know, be a hard surface that it bumps against. And, and that's hard, but it's, it's really a powerful tool.
- [20:54]
A
I agree that it's a powerful tool. I think, I think it's a worthwhile aim for everyone to aim to be the calm person in the room. I think that that's just always a better. I think that's a good pursuit, is to be the calm person.
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B
That's a good idea. It's. It's not always possible.
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A
No, it, no. Well, actually it's always possible. It's always in your control.
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B
Sometimes when you're hijacked, though, it doesn't feel like it.
- [21:20]
A
No, exactly. But, but, but our behavior is 100% in our control. And so. Yes. So in those moments where you have allowed yourself to, to lose control, that's when you have to just say, you know what? I feel out of control right now. Just gonna, like, take a time out, I'll come back or. I'm really sorry. I'm very, very. Like, things that I've used in the past and helped people use in the past is just say, you know what? I'm really worked up right now. I'm so sorry. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a minute. Like, I'm upset right now and I'm gonna take a minute. But this, this, all of this requires so much practice and self awareness and it's what you're doing outside of the relationship that matters. So people. I have found that people who have a regular meditation practice or who really practice or have other sort of practices that help them ground, then I find that they are less reactive in those moments, it doesn't mean that they're not having reaction. It doesn't mean that they're not getting upset. But they are less likely to let their amygdala take over their entire physiology.
- [22:43]
B
That's really important. And I think having that capacity to create a pause between your thought and your words and your actions is really hard for most people. It just collapses. So it always seems like one. And I think Viktor Frankl said, you know, between stimulus and response, there's a pause, and in that pause lies a choice, and that choice lies our freedom. Right? So. So he was in a concentration camp, for God's sake, and he was able to be liberated inside because he didn't let the. The Nazi guards actually take his psychological freedom and give them the power over his emotional state, which is, I mean, pretty extraordinary. I mean, most of us don't have that extreme, but it's an interesting framework to think about and to be able to slow down enough to, to actually create that pause and to not believe your thoughts. I mean, I think, you know, my friend said we have a lot of ants in our head. Automatic negative thoughts, or we, you know, we believe every stupid thought we have and we don't have to believe every thought we have. They're just, they're just thought form. That's why you say meditation is good, because you sit there and you go, oh, wow, I'm watching all these thoughts go by and like, gee, I'm. One minute I'm happy, one minute I'm sad. One minute I hate this person. One minute I love this person. So they're like, you kind of, oh, this is just my monkey mind. You know, this is not real.
- [23:55]
A
Exactly.
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B
And it's. It's a really powerful practice. So let's kind of go back to the, the root. Root cause you said nine times out of ten, it's usually something from your past, like from your trauma or your childhood or some. And you know, other times it's your cultural conditioning or maybe the other person. But if that's true, you know, how do you. How do we think about starting to heal emotional wounds? Because people do therapy. People are doing things like Hoffman, which is an intensive brain group process. They work through that. People are doing psychedelic medicine therapy like MDMA therapy or psilocybin therapy. How do people start to kind of really go back and excavate? I call it soul archeology. How do you go back and dig and find out what's going on there? That helps you unpack it.
- [24:39]
A
Yeah, this is a Very important question. And I believe that there is not just one way to heal. I know people who have had profound breakthroughs in therapy. I haven't. And you know, I know people who have been in therapy for years and years and years and nothing's changing. And I know people who've been in therapy and it was like the best thing that's ever happened to them. I sort of see it as like two part approach, which is are you. So number one, like, are you experiencing any sort of psychosomatic symptoms? So like, are you, are you experiencing any sort of physical pain or illness that could be a result of your nervous system being chronically dysregulated because you're chronically stressed, because you haven't, you haven't dealt with certain emotions. Right. And so in that way I find somatic work to be incredibly healing. Um, but to me, sometimes the most, the most profound somatic work I've ever done. And you know, I've been a yoga practitioner for almost 30 years. So beyond exercise is, is fun, having fun, remembering that you are alive and, and whether that's with friends. Yeah. Playing and, and connection, I have found that to be profound. And I think that another part is, you know, because I've dealt with so much grief and heartbreak and I've helped thousands of people overcome heartbreak is really the story that we tell ourselves about that heartbreak. When we can be more mindful and look at things from different perspectives, that can be incredibly healing. Like for example, I healed by understanding that if someone betrayed me or was really wrong to me or wasn't the right father, that, you know, know they should have been. I recognize that it's not personal. I recognize like there's something going on with them. So being able to look at the story differently, that's healing. Being able for some people. Some people have no idea how their childhood impacts their current reality. And in that regard, therapy can be wildly impactful in a great way. But if you have all the people who are, who have all the awareness, they've done the Hoffman process, they've done this, they've done this, and they're still not getting better or they're still not feeling better. You know, sometimes it's, it's, it boils down to the fact that they are, they're valuing certain things in their life that's not helping them. Sometimes it means they actually have to help other people because they're too wrapped up in their own problems. So you asked a question like, how do we heal this? And I'm answering It in a way like this is not, it's not just one answer. It's so, it's so multifaceted and what works for one person doesn't work for another. But I will say this for most people who've like done everything and they still feel stuck. Look at your beliefs about yourself and about the world and your, and your world get out of your head by helping someone else in a, in a big way so that you stop thinking about you and yourself and then figure out if there's anything stuck in your body and nervous system. And that's it. Not easy.
- [28:17]
B
The somatic work's important because a lot of the stuff is stored in your body. So it's not, you can intellectualize it. You can't just know the story and it's not fully metabolized and kind of letting you be free and not have that automatic reaction. So that's, that's a tough one. I think a lot of the somatic therapies can be really helpful. The, you know, there's a number of tools out there. I know it's important to be able to investigate your own thinking. It's kind of what you're talking about and to do other modalities. Then try things that work because it's not one size fits all for everybody. But it's important to understand that often what's showing up in the relationship is your 5 year old or your 8 year old, not your 35 year old or your 50 year old or your 60 year old. And having that understanding that both people in a relationship are operating usually from that unconscious place. I think Carl Jung said it clearly examine your unconscious. It will basically control your life. So I think that that's kind of what most people are stuck in. Let's sort of talk about heartbreak because you mentioned a few times and I think it is something people really struggle with and it causes depression, it can cause real dysfunction in life, it can cause suicide and other more serious things. You've helped thousands of people navigate this. So give us a sense of how do we, how do we navigate that. If anybody listening is going through that on our, on a relationship level or on even a grief level for loss of someone they love, you know.
- [29:41]
A
Well, let's, let's talk about it from like a divorce breakup perspective. You know, most people, not every breakup is created equal, obviously, but there are some breakups that really bring us to our knees. And for those that are really traumatic, it's just like an emotional catastrophe. You have to what's really useful for people to understand is that you are going to go through a temporary insanity. It's. It really is that you are not going to feel in your right mind. Um, you're going to feel like you're going through withdrawal. You are going to feel like you're not good enough. Your mind is going. You're going to ruminate. You're not going to feel like yourself. You're going to. You're going to feel insane. And that's because there's just so much going on. Some people are. Are divorcing after 20 years together, and then you're trying to figure out who am I if I am not this. In this relationship. So there's an identity crisis that's happening. A lot of people are then fearful. They're fearful of the unknown. They're fearful that no one's gonna love them again. They're of, you know, there. Sometimes you think you're crying over this person, but really what's happening is that it's unearthing old pain. So you're crying for the father that you never had or the mother you never had. So some of these breakups can be. Can. Can, like I said, be a real emotional catastrophe. And so I think the first point, the first part is just understanding that, like, you're going to be okay. This is incredibly difficult for everyone. No one, no one, no one gets out of heartbreak. There's no way to circumvent, to circumvent the pain of a broken heart. It's just. It's part of the human. The human condition. And then you want.
- [31:46]
B
People could be in it for years. Like, I, you know, I've.
- [31:48]
A
I've seen it, which is the crisis. I see. That's a.
- [31:51]
B
That's, you know, I literally. I literally know someone whose, you know, husband died 30 years ago, and they're still constantly talking about them. Can't let it go. Or in grief. Constantly. Yeah, their life is completely spiraled. I mean, it's just.
- [32:04]
A
That's really sad.
- [32:05]
B
It's quite an extreme situation. But how do. So we all go through this process, what you're saying. It's inevitable. You can't avoid it. You have to lean into it. And then what? Like, at some point, you kind of have to get sorted, you know?
- [32:16]
A
Yeah. So I want to address the woman that you just spoke about, who's still grieving her late husband, you said, who died 30 years ago. I want to address that because I think it's important. But people write into me all the time saying, you know, it's been two years, it's been three years. You know, some people say, you know, it's been six months. When am I going to get over this person? I'm like, you know what? Six months is nothing. Like, you need. You're going to. You're going to have to face this a little bit longer. But for some people, it's like, it's a really long time. And what I've discovered is that it's. It's not about. They're not really grieving the relationship anymore. They are actually stuck in the story of what happened. That's number one. Number two, something else is going on in their life that is making it difficult to move on. So they. Almost always what I find is that there's also. They're not happy with work or they're having an issue with a family member. So they're not, they're. They're. It's extremely contextual and it's not just about them. And so they can't get themselves out of the emotional state of sadness or whatever, the grief, because there's, there's other things that are not working in their life. So therefore, the path to healing is to not focus on the. The relationship is to not focus on getting over that person, but to focus on what's else is missing from that person's life and to help them, you know, whatever, get a better job, find their purpose, find community, work on their bodies, whatever it is that's happening. And that's how they actually start to heal. So it becomes less about the other person. Because the thing is, is that we put so much focus on that situation when really something else is happening. Similarly, like, I know people who will like, go back to the person who's like, totally wrong for them, like, doesn't want to commit, you know, doesn't even treat them that well. And they're like, you know, I get really strong, I break up with them and I keep going back, like, what is it? Well, you know, sometimes it's just the sex is great, but like, it's not just that. It's this person. There's always context. That person almost always is feeling untethered from their family, community or from purpose. And so because they feel untethered, they go back to something that's familiar, that is meeting their needs in the moment. It's meeting their needs for connection in the moment. It's meeting their needs for, you know, significance in the moment. But it's always an example or a symptom of something else. Rarely do you have the person who's like, I feel great in my life, I feel connected. I feel connected to self. And they keep going back to the person who treats them like crap. It doesn't happen. So for the woman, for your friend who's still grieving the loss of her husband from 30 years ago, there's different strategies. One that really helps is her doing something in that honors her late husband so that she doesn't feel so alone in the world. She actually honors him. Also, there could be something else going on in her life that's making it very difficult for her to move on it. There's o. You know, people are so interesting. That's why I love the work that I do and why it can be very tricky on social media, especially with people saying, if you're feeling this, well, then this is, this is because this is happening. And, and it's rarely the case. When you speak to someone, you see that there is this whole holistic tapestry and there's this whole thing that's going on. And if you really want to help someone change, you have to look at the other things that are missing in their life and help them meet their needs.
- [36:25]
B
So it's really looking at, you know, the kaleidoscope of their life and where things aren't working and, and people tend to kind of project it onto relationship. And you're saying it starts with you, right?
- [36:37]
A
It always starts with you. Yeah, it starts with you. And I think I want to help people understand themselves. I want to help people understand their behavior more because then, then it, then they don't feel so lost in it. And that's where suffering comes from.
- [36:53]
B
Suffering comes from feeling lost and not knowing how to navigate.
- [36:56]
A
I think true suffering comes feeling from feeling completely out of control to change your circumstances. I think that's that that causes suffering more than anything else.
- [37:05]
B
Well, you know, one of the things you talk about, Jillian, is sort of what, what makes relationships work. What are the sort of non negotiables. Would you mind sharing a little bit about what those are so people can understand what a, what a healthy relationship looks like, what it feels like, how you think about it and define it.
- [37:20]
A
Respect and trust. That's the baseline. That's the foundation that creates emotional safety. If you don't feel respected or you don't respect the other, you've got no leg to stand on. If you don't trust the other person, trust them to be there for you. Trust them to be your friend. Trust them to not stray from the relationship. There's nothing and then it's how you deal with conflict, how you deal. And conflict is really in the repair. Do you have an argument and then do you ignore each other for a week? Do you have an argument and not talk about. And sweep it under the rug and then get very resentful? So it's really in how you deal with repair and respect and trust. So you build that through the way that you communicate. You build that by the way that you listen. You build the respect and trust by. By being good friends to each other. You build that by being reliable. You build that by. By understanding. Like men and women fundamentally don't understand each other. So if you're in a. In a heterosexual relationship, you need to understand what your partner needs, and you need to be able to meet their needs. And most people are only concerned about their own needs and getting their own needs met.
- [38:40]
B
And it has to be explicit. You know, we often think we can read each other's minds, but we can't.
- [38:43]
A
No, we can't.
- [38:44]
B
So being curious is a good. Is a good quality to have in a relationship. Being curious about what they're experiencing about them as human beings.
- [38:52]
A
What's going to make you feel loved? Yeah.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah. This whole idea of, like, rupture repair is something a friend of mine who's a couples therapist talks about. You know, we have these ruptures in relationship, and the key is, how do we repair? You said relationships don't die because of lack of love, but because people stop feeling connected and they have these ruptures and these little tiny death by a thousand cuts. How can couples rebuild a connection if it's faded or it's lost in the process of this constant kind of rupture, rupture, rupture without repair. And then how do they kind of get back on track?
- [39:26]
A
By first asking yourself, how am I complicit in what it is that I say I don't want in this relationship?
- [39:33]
B
Yeah. Oh, that's a big one. Look in the mirror.
- [39:37]
A
Look in the mirror.
- [39:38]
B
Nobody wants to do that.
- [39:40]
A
Nobody wants to do that.
- [39:41]
B
Oh, it's your fault. You did it to me.
- [39:43]
A
It's the blame game. Yeah. So that is the first step. What can I do differently?
- [39:49]
B
How have you showed up in a way that actually contributes to the dynamic rather than saying, oh, it's only this person. But like the old adage, it takes two to tango is actually true, is what you're saying.
- [40:00]
A
Very much so. I mean, of course, in some cases it's not. And definitely there are cases where there's One person who's more of the problem. But you have to. This is not easy, but it's necessary. You have to have the mindset of I'm going to show up in the best way that I possibly can for me. And if it, and if it changes things, great. And if it doesn't, then I know that maybe this isn't the right relationship for me. But it. Repair the, it just. You can, you cannot change another person. You can only change yourself. And people tend to. But we can influence another person. And the way that we influence another person is by changing ourselves and also by understanding, number one, human nature and understanding your partner's nature. Like everybody wants to feel understood, everyone wants to feel appreciated, everyone wants to feel like they're listened to. So maybe the first step is, is I'm going to be a better listener. I'm going to just come into this and just be a better listener rather than trying to always prove my point.
- [41:04]
B
No, I was going to say that is not an easy thing to do. You know, there's a whole process of nonviolent communication. You know, how to have crucial conversations, nonviolent communications, a lot of work on this, how to actively listen. These are skills and you can learn them, you know, and it's not easy to put aside your narrative, your story, your beliefs, your projections, and deeply listen to what the other person's experiencing from a place of love and compassion without having to correct them or fix it or change it, or have them even be right, but just to validate them as a human being. It's one of the most powerful unlocks that I found in relationship and the most powerful tools to actually get present enough to do that. But that's hard. You have to know how to navigate your nervous system and be able to hold that discomfort in your nervous system as you're listening without interrupting, without talking over, without correcting. And it's really, it's one of the most important relationship skills that we were never taught at school. But it works. It's like a magic trick. And there's a lot of resources out there. I think people will put in the show notes around things like active listening or the non communication work or crucial conversations and other tools. But there really is a methodology to it and I think it's an incredible tool. I'm also curious from your perspective. You know, people are listening and they understand the context. I think people would agree with mostly what you're saying. You know, there's a question of how, how do people actually start to acquire these tools what are the, what are the practical tools who want to start building better relationships, healing their relationship with themselves? It's not immediately obvious to people how to do that.
- [42:44]
A
I'm going to get to that. But there's something that I want to say about communication repair, because it's incredibly important, which is this. We talked about the mind creating stories. So the first step is, have I been. Am I stuck in a story about my partner that has made them into the enemy and do what are my rules that they have broken that has made it so that I am so angry at them?
- [43:13]
B
Your unconscious rules?
- [43:14]
A
Yes. But now we have to make them. And then we have to make them conscious. Exactly. Like, oh, they're always late. And I have a belief system that if someone's late for me, they don't respect me. So I'm angry at them. When really maybe from their, from their perspective, they're always late because of some. It's not because they don't respect you, you know, so we always have these rules and it's. And we have to have some rules that are sort of like our boundaries in a relationship. But sometimes we, we have so many rules and we make it really easy for our partner to fail instead of making it easy for our partner to win. And that's where we have to get very, very honest with ourselves, which is, am I making it really easy for my partner to fail with me? And is this something that I. Is this a pattern that I have if I'm really honest in my relationships or for other people?
- [44:08]
B
And you set up all these expectations, they should behave like this, they should do that. They didn't do this. They did do this. I don't like that. And then you, you, you, in your mind, you're keeping a list, basically a scorecard. And then it's either expressed in the moment or it builds up over time and it gets exploded in some crisis. But that's kind of what usually is generating the challenge. And sometimes, you know what those are consciously what those requirements are. Like, I need my husband to put the toilet seat down or whatever, you know, but. Or I need to, like him to close the cupboards. That's my thing. I don't close the cupboards. I like, I'm not good enough. I'm learning, I'm learning, I'm learning.
- [44:45]
A
But, like, there's a fun thing that some men do. Yeah.
- [44:52]
B
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- [47:52]
A
Well, sort of just like what we were saying, you know, you said something really important, which is that it's good to. It's good to be in a. It's good to be accommodating in your relationship. It's. It's good to just do things for your partner. It's good to be that kind of partner that. But you don't obviously want to do things that it's going to portray. Betray yourself and your integrity. But, like, if something's really important to your partner, like, and it's not something that by you doing it, you're like, betraying who you. Very. Who you are. Do it. Do it. And if your partner is not actually doing it, like, can you just let it go? Like. So I'm gonna make this very basic. There is a lot that you're just going to have to tolerate in the person who you live with. And can you have a more flexible, easygoing perspective and mindset when it comes to your relationship? The people who do are happier in their relationships. People who are extremely rigid are actually unhappier in their relationships. And so that doesn't mean, again, we're not, you know, because I. I work with a lot of people who do betray themselves in relationships and really, really horrendous stuff. But we're not talking about that right now, you know, so I, you know, I was speaking to someone. She's. She and her partner, they've been together for like 12 years. And they have an amazing relationship. And she said, you know, they're. They're both very different. And she said, and I love her so much, and I love the relationship so much. That, like, doing thing, like going out of my way to do certain things that I know is just gonna make her comfortable doesn't feel like a sacrifice to me. It feels like I am just adding. Adding energy and money to the emotional bank account of our relationship.
- [49:56]
B
I mean, I think that's important. I mean, there's a whole framework around, you know, making deposits in your emotional bank account versus withdrawals. And how do you do more deposits than withdrawals? You know, like 5 to 1 or 10 to 1 ratio in order to keep things good. Right?
- [50:10]
A
Yeah. You just want to be a giver, and you don't want to be someone who just gives and gives and gives with no boundaries. And you don't want to be someone who just gives because you want to get. But you just, you know, this idea of generosity, like, this emotional generosity. People who are just emotionally generous generally make the best partners. And those who are keeping score all the time are usually a nightmare to be in a relationship with.
- [50:36]
B
I think. I think, you know, what you're speaking to is. Is a deeper thing for people is this sort of sense of being out of control and the need to be in control. And the more out of control you are inside, the more you want to control your external environment to make your. You're safe. But, you know, in relationships, that really backfires because, you know, you're. You're not actually in relationship to the authentic moment. You're a list of some past trauma or hurt or belief. And so that. That's a very important sort of thing for people to understand. And it's also. It's so hardwired into people's nervous systems. So it takes a lot of work to resolve that.
- [51:16]
A
It's practice. It's practice. And sometimes when you're just like. For some people, it's like a light switch goes off in their mind. They're like, wow, I never thought of it that way. You know, I just. And some people, there's not just one way to have a relationship. Some people, the best thing that could ever happen to them is to be in a committed relationship, but don't live together. You know, not everyone is actually meant to live together.
- [51:43]
B
Remind me of what my mother said when my. My stepfather retired. She says, I married him for better or worse. But not for lunch.
- [51:49]
A
For. Not for lunch. I love that. Exactly.
- [51:51]
B
Better or Worse, but not for lunch.
- [51:53]
A
Yeah. So figure out. I love that. That's great. Figure out what works for you. And also, like, where I find that people really struggle is being able to differentiate what a true character defect is versus something that is just a little annoying. But, but it's worth it to tolerate because all the rest is good.
- [52:17]
B
In terms of the nine truths you talk about in the book, you talk about these nine truths about love that are really important to think about and they're hard truths. Can you unpack that a little bit? Because I think you basically present them as a life changing toolkit and things that if you follow these truths and you kind of internalize them, they can transform you, you transform your relationships and your life.
- [52:43]
A
So I thought about these nine truths for about four years and really worked on them and thought about like, you know, what would I want to leave behind as like the most important principles that we don't learn in school? And you know, I certainly didn't learn them in the therapy office and I just didn't learn them. And I wanted them to be, I wanted them to help people regardless of what their relationship status was or is. You know, the first one, which is the title of the book which begins with you means like, it's just nothing changes in your life. You, you have to be the change that you wish to see in your life and that includes your love life. And it's not about, you know, the problem is just you. It's just about nothing is going to change and we have to be responsible for our choices and that. And it's not. I wrote it in such a way, it was important for me to convey that this is not a slap on the wrist. This was more like, see, you are actually more in control than you think. Because to be out of control, like I said, is where people suffer the most and that you are, you can actually make change. It doesn't even matter how terrible your childhood was. Like, you really can make changes, but you have to understand these truths. And so that's why I went into. I thought about everything just also like the power of the mind. And I, you know, after co. Because I worked with thousands of people, like thousand in a very short period of time and because I really wanted to get incredibly skilled in my craft and there were just these common themes and one of it is just like, like I knew the nature of the mind because I'd been studying the nature of the mind for many years through the practice of yoga. And you t, you referenced the monkey mind. This idea that the mind is sort of a battlefield and that if we don't, what. What's going to interfere with a relationship more than anything else is what goes up and up, what goes on up in our minds. It's the way that we think. Yeah, always. Because if we're living more in our hearts, we're going to have a lot less relationship problems. But it's hard. You know, we've been hurt. We've been hurt. And, you know, there's also. It's also cultural. Like, we live in a society that's. That really. That really encourages us to think more and feel less. And that's just part of it. And then there was this. I. Lust is not love, and no one is coming to save you, and you have to make peace with your parents. And these were. And actually you do have to love yourself. But I explain what loving yourself really actually means. And these are the things that are. That are important and they're ongoing, but they're meant to be a sort of guideline. And I, to this day, stand by those truths as. As the most important ones.
- [55:43]
B
Powerful. I. I think I want to just double click on what you just said and that mostly the trouble in relationships comes from our mind, not our heart. Heart. And that many of us wall off our hearts to protect ourselves from abandonment, pain, suffering, loss, whatever. And it's very hard to keep your heart open in one, relationship to your trauma, and two, in relationship to another person, which, you know, you might be projecting things on from your past or you might have an actual legitimate problem within the moment. And so how do you keep your heart open in difficult times? And how do you maintain that when your brain is. The mind is the one that's sort of hijacking the narrative?
- [56:23]
A
Yeah, it's very difficult. I think one is just to become aware of the fact that you are afraid that you, you know, because most people are on autopilot, blocking their hearts, living in their heads. It's. And, and we talked, you know, we. At the very beginning, you know, people on YouTube want to know about triggers if you can first just acknowledge, I am afraid right now that underneath the anger, underneath the trigger, underneath the pulling away, all of that, you are afraid. And what you're afraid of is that you are not good enough. And that because you're not a good enough, because you're not good enough, you are somehow going to be deprived of love. That is the fear that underlies all problems in relationships. It does not matter who you are. That is the fear that somehow you are Inadequate and not going to be good enough. And there is nothing like a romantic relationship where you love someone and you're attached to someone that exposes that vulnerability and that makes us feel so vulnerable. And so everyone has these sort of adaptive strategies of how they can not be abandoned or how they cannot be engulfed by the relationship. You know, they're afraid they're going to lose themselves. And so if they lose themselves and they're actually not going to actually get the love that they want, it all boils down to the one thing that everybody wants, and that's love. Period. End of story. That is it.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah. All scary little kids trying to get love and messing it up along the way.
- [58:04]
A
Yeah. And love is, you know, in the form, for some people that that's in the form of appreciation, respect, understanding. All these things are in the umbrella of love. So first you just have to acknowledge, which is what I start my book with. Everything boils down to if you peel away the onion, it's just, it's. You are afraid. So to start to get back into your heart. I mean, I've. I've worked with a lot of people who have been betrayed in relationships or they've been in abu some sort of abusive relationship or they lost themselves or they're codependent, whatever it is, like those kind of problems and they have to kind of remove themselves from the equation and learn how to have like a greater sense of self. And, and they have to protect their hearts because they've opened their hearts to all the wrong people. But if we're just looking at the framework of a relationship, when people can like get into their bodies and then the steer. The tears start to form, you know that, and they were angry, but the tears then start to form and the vulnerability starts to come out. That's when people bond again. But what's keeping them from bonding is just like, you did this and, and I don't like this. And we're so stuck in here and we're so closed off in the heart causes all the problems. And so how do you go back into it? It begins with understanding. Okay, I'm afraid right now, like, this is what's going on with me right now.
- [59:37]
B
That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. I mean, I think having that present moment awareness is something also I think you're really talking about because none of this is possible if you don't have a relationship with your mind that is at least aware and doesn't have to be healthy. But at least you go, oh, geez, I'M having that stupid thought or, oh, I, you know, it's like, I'm sure everybody in life at some point in their life has thought of killing themselves. You know, like, this is too hard. I can't take it. And like, but you don't do it because you don't believe that. And you go, that's, you know, like you, you know, when it's. But, but on the little stuff, we, we just believe it. And so meditation, yoga, different practices can really help to sort of bring you into the present moment. And it's, it's something we don't really value in this culture. It's nothing we were taught to do. It's not something we learn how to do. I mean, I was lucky. I, I majored in Buddhism and I would do 10 day meditation retreats when I was like, like 18 or 19 years old. And I, it was like, I was like, wow, I can sit there for 10 days, 12 hours of meditation a day, and I begin to watch the movie that was my mind. And I was like, this is interesting. And I don't have to, you know, I'm like, this is really interesting. And it, you know, it didn't fix everything for me, but it really helped me to kind of create this spaciousness between my thoughts and my, and my actions or my words. So I was like, wait a minute, I don't have to. Not all this is real or true. And that's not something that's easy for people to sort of manage. Like that pause that Viktor Frankl talks about. Like that moment where there's a space and it could be like a millisecond. Because usually the thoughts gets translated into a feeling and to an action or a word in literally milliseconds. So how do you just stretch that out a little bit and not just say stupid shit?
- [61:22]
A
By shifting your focus. See, where focus goes, all the energy flows. So from shifting your focus from something you're angry about to something you're grateful about, from shifting your focus from I'm so angry with this person to maybe they're really hurting right now.
- [61:39]
B
Having compassion, empathy.
- [61:41]
A
Having compassion. Don't have compa. Don't have too much empathy for the person who's harming you. But that, all that aside. Yeah. Compassion, empathy, the ability to put yourself, you know, there's that old saying, can you put yourself in someone else's shoes? Well, something that is profoundly impactful in relationships is I, you know, I sometimes I ask someone, I want you to literally step into this person's body. Lot Literally, but as best as you can, step into this person's body, become them. Step into their nervous system, start to breathe like them, start to stand like them or sit like them, like, become them. And I have them close their eyes and really sort of mimic and say. And then I ask them, what. What does this person believe? From their perspective? You're them, you're not you. And that's a very powerful exercise in empathy. But also, it's also about partnering. It's about. I always say there's two. There's two keys to a successful relationship. Who you choose, because most people don't choose the right partner and who you choose to be in that relationship. Are you the right partner? But a lot of people don't choose. They choose the person who's gonna. Who's just knows exactly how to poke every single button. And you know, you can work through that. And if you both are willing to really work through that and, and grow spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and just. And just grow. But for people who are, like, single and like, looking for a relationship, don't go for the person who pushes every single button.
- [63:21]
B
Yeah, you gotta fix your picker. My friend wants to learn.
- [63:23]
A
Yeah, you gotta fix your picker. Exactly.
- [63:25]
B
You know, and that's hard because then that means really getting to know yourself and understanding that probably the person you're attracted to is often not the right person because you're actually often watching out. It's not true. Well, for me, it's been true. I've been picking the wrong people for a long time. And I think that. And I think that I began to break that pattern and fix my pickering. And that was really a huge revelation for me, was like, I'm choosing women who are X, Y, Z, because that's actually how my mother was. And so once I unraveled that, I was no longer a prisoner to that. That's what I meant by it.
- [64:01]
A
Yes, that is very true. But sometimes you choose the wrong person because you have a misguided under. There's so many different reasons why people choose the wrong person. One is, is because. And I. Do you want to go into this? Because I think this might be valuable for your listeners.
- [64:15]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a good. Yeah, it's a good place to stop. Because, you know, if you're gonna be in a healthy relationship, you have to know how to choose the right person.
- [64:20]
A
Yeah. And I. And people love this.
- [64:22]
B
Go for it. Go for it.
- [64:24]
A
So if you are in a place like you were like, okay, my picker is Off. First I have to just say, yes, that could be true. But always, always consider that it's never just the other person. It's also something that you've been doing in relationships that needs to change. Okay, So I just have to say that because it's very important. But let's just say your picker is off. You are just find yourself attracted to people who don't want you back or who don't treat you well or just like a mismatch for you. One thing is, like you said, I'm. I'm going after like I have some unfinished business with my mom and I am seeking out the familiar. And this woman, these women who I'm choosing are actually very, very familiar, even though they're incredibly wrong for me. So that's very, very true. And that is the theory of all psychologists. And it's. And, and there's truth to it. It's not the whole story. If you're someone who values looks more than character, then you're going to keep going for the people who might be really good looking, but you're not taking any time to discover their character. So that doesn't mean don't value looks, but it means if you want a relationship, you better value character. So there's a lot of people who keep picking the wrong person because they're. They do not value or understand the value of a person's character. Then there are people who keep choosing the wrong person because they are not thinking about what it actually takes to build a relationship for the long term. And that if you want to build a relationship for the long term versus you want to just have like a fling, you need to look for certain, for other things like alignment in core values. Alignment in what a life well lived is alignment in. You know, this person really compliments me. They have strengths where I have weaknesses and vice versa. So people don't think about these things and so they keep repeating the same pattern over and over again.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah, that's powerful.
- [66:41]
A
I wanted to add that because I think it's important.
- [66:43]
B
No, it's important. Thank you. And I just want to say everybody, Jillian has a whole wealth of resources out there. So this is just the tip of the iceberg. First, it begins with you. I think that's a very important book you wrote that is out now. And I think everybody should go for sure get a copy. And they can find you on social media, on your website and lots of courses. So maybe tell us how they find you on social media, your website, and some of the courses you do so people can actually get some resources. People are listening. Well, that sounds good. Well, now what? Right? So what's the now what?
- [67:13]
A
So the now what would be my podcast, Jillian on Love. Because I take. I basically do solo episodes. I don't really do interviews very much. So I go, I go, I do deep dives into sort of these theories. The now what, obviously, is my book. It begins with you. My, my social media, all over social media. And then I, yeah, I have courses for heartbreak. I have courses for choosing the right person. I have courses for couples. And I have a membership for women called the Conscious Women, for women who are really trying to break patterns and become their best selves. You can all find this on my website.
- [67:47]
B
Great. And we'll put it all in the show Notes. Thank you again for coming on the podcast for your own discovery that's led to the insights that could help many people in this one area, which many people find challenging. In a way, it's even harder than health for a lot of people. So I think it's really one of the key aspects of health. When you look at longevity, when you look at health metrics, having healthy relationships and social connections is probably as important as what you eat or how much you're exercising or how much you sleep. So it's really one of the core pillars of health and wellness. And, and I really appreciate your work and what you've done. And everybody definitely check out Jillian's work. And thank you again for doing what you do.
- [68:28]
A
Oh, thank you, Mark. Thank you for doing what you do. And it's been a pleasure to talk to you today.
- [68:33]
B
Jillian gave us so many tools for improving our relationships. What's the one idea you're going to try in your own life? Let me know in the comments. When it comes to supplements, you only want the best for your body. The kind with the highest quality, cleanest and most potent ingredients you can get. That's exactly what you'll find at my supplement store where I've hand selected each and every product to meet the most rigorous standards for safety, purity and effectiveness, these are the only supplements I recommend to my patients. And they're also what I use myself. Whether you want to optimize longevity or reduce your disease risk, or you're looking to improve your sleep, blood sugar, metabolism, gut health, you name it, Dr. Hyman.com has the world's best selection of top quality premium supplements, all backed by science and expertly vetted by me, Dr. Mark Hyman. So check out Dr.hyman.com because when it comes to your health, nothing less than the very best will do do. That's Dr. Hyman.coM-R-H y m a n.com below. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. You can find me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Dr. Hyman show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr. Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on the Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness center at ultrawellnesscenter.com and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to purchase bring practical ways of improving health to the public. So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible. Thanks so much again for listening.