← The Dr. John Delony Show
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- [00:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
Here's what I'm hearing from dads, okay. They're just opting out.
- [00:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
We interpret struggle as our fault.
- [00:13]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yes. What's the antidote to that?
- [00:15]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I mean, I think there's a bunch of antidotes for that.
- [00:17]
Dr. John DeLoney
I had an experience when my show took off. There was a big dirty secret that I carried, which was.
- [00:29]
John
What'S up? What's up? This is John with a Dr. John DeLoney show. And this is the episode that I've.
- [00:38]
Dr. John DeLoney
Gotten the most requests for from the.
- [00:40]
John
People of the Internet.
- [00:42]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's you, the folks who listen to.
- [00:43]
John
Our show, the folks who are always checking us out on YouTube or on, on the social screens or what, wherever people happen to consume the show.
- [00:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
This is the episode people have been asking me for.
- [00:55]
John
I recently flew to New York City and, and sat down with my new.
- [00:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
Friend, Dr. Becky Kennedy of Good Inside. What many believe is she's. She's the parenting expert on the planet.
- [01:07]
John
Right now, and she has an incredible, vibrant community. And we sat down to talk parenting, how to be married with kids, everything. She is one of the leading voices with parenting today. I'm so excited. We had a great time hanging out.
- [01:23]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I can't wait for you to.
- [01:24]
John
Hear my conversation with the great and.
- [01:27]
Dr. John DeLoney
Powerful Dr. Becky Kennedy. Check it out. Well, dude, thanks for inviting me into your studio. This is awesome.
- [01:35]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I'm so happy to be talking.
- [01:36]
Dr. John DeLoney
This is the coolest, man.
- [01:38]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [01:38]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay. So I would have, when I started doing this, I never would have thought that on the Instagrams, on the, on the Internet, that more people would send me back and forth. Your stuff. And so as I got into it early, I thought I was the smartest guy in the room going because. And you have changed my parenting and my approach to being married probably more than anybody else. You and Est Perel, probably the two people who have impacted me the most. So thank you for, for doing that, for showing me like, it's, it's kind of like flying on an airplane. And then you think, I could probably drive this. Right. When it comes to, like, how to be a good partner, how to, how to have kids, all that stuff. So I'm imagining we'll get through one or two of these questions that I have. I've got tons of these things. And as I'll tell my audience, like, this is a thin veiled. I need your help. That's what we're asking here. So I want to start here. What I've seen over the last. I've been working with young people for a long time. For a couple of decades. And what I've seen increase over the last probably 10 years, but especially in the last five, is that kids feel like seem to be holding the emotional space of the household. Like the whole house rests on kids, whether they're teenagers, whether they're college kids, or even newborns. Like the whole mom, parents are looking at their kids to say, are we okay? And in my guts, that doesn't feel right. That feels too much so that a kid can't carry that. Am I out to lunch here?
- [03:04]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I do not think you're out to lunch here. And you know, yeah, I have a little more to say. And you're definitely not out to lunch. We'll start there. It's always a good starting point. I mean, I think what you're also pointing to is something's happened in terms of like an overcorrection where I don't know when we were being raised or even generations before, it was like parents in charge. I don't really care about how you're feeling. Go to your room, you know, pull up your bootstraps, let's move on. And then I think there has been this overcorrection to how are my kids feeling? And I am not only so hyper attentive to how they're feeling, but now we've gone from not caring about kids feelings to my kids feelings have the power to dictate what I do. And as a parent and I actually think, you know, I love a pilot metaphor. I have so many, we'll see how many I can get in today. But if you think about one version of a pilot, the whole passenger cabin is upset. There's turbulence. You're like, oh my God, turbulence. And let's say version one of a pilot was like generations ago. As a parent who'd say, everyone, be quiet. You're making a big deal out of nothing. Zip it, okay? And you know, it's not really what I want to hear. As a passenger, I'm kind of like, does the pilot even realize it's turbulent? Or I probably get more activated. But Pilot 2 to me is the overcorrection, which is, oh my God, turbulence. And woo. Everyone has to be calm. In fact, I'm not even calm when you're not calm. And maybe someone could come into the cockpit and tell me how to do this. And you're like, oh my goodness. Like, I'm not even scared of the turbulence anymore. I'm really scared that this person is my pilot. Like literally my feelings have gone from not important to too Contagious in a way that is equally as kind of scary to me. And I think at good inside. What we stand for and then what we try to make very practical is kind of thinking about parenting as that pilot you want. You want a pilot who's going to validate your experience. Hey, I hear there's a lot of screaming. We get it. There's turbulence. And even a pilot who says, you guys want to keep screaming back there, do your thing. Because what I know, and this is the boundary point, is I've kind of flown planes a long time. I know I'm going to get us to the ground safely. So it makes sense. You're upset. I know what I'm doing, and I will see you on the ground. And I know if I'm the passenger, I'm like, okay, they told me my experience is real, but they also weren't taken over by my experience. There's validation, but then there's also this boundary and differentiation. My pilot didn't become my anxiety. And I think what you're saying is we have to. We kind of have to come back a little bit toward. Toward the middle.
- [05:48]
Dr. John DeLoney
You've got a. You gave me a word. I've probably quoted you a hundred times, the word sturdy. And that's the best word. Like, it's not rigid. It's not soft. It is like a tree.
- [05:59]
John
It'll.
- [05:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
It'll sway. But that sucker's rooted into the ground. If I back all the way out working with parents.
- [06:09]
John
I almost am struggling.
- [06:11]
Dr. John DeLoney
With asking a parent to be sturdy, because I don't feel like adults are sturdy right now. I know they feel like they're all over the place and almost needing a kid to be anchored. Right. Am I. Am I crazy?
- [06:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
No. I think this is what we're saying is you don't want a pilot who looks to the passengers to know if they are safe on a plane.
- [06:30]
Dr. John DeLoney
So where do you tell a couple who's struggling like. Like in a marriage?
- [06:34]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I mean, I think sturdiness in what you're saying it is this ability. Let's just define it kind of. To me, being sturdy is your ability at once to know what's going on for you, to know your values, to know your limits, to be connected to yourself, while at the same time you're kind of just still porous enough that I can connect to you. I can know what's going on for you. I can see that as real, as important, but I can balance that with what is going on for me. I'm not taken over by it, but I'm also not so threatened by it that I have to push it away. And I think what you're saying is how can we be sturdy for our kids if often we don't feel sturdy ourselves or sturdy in the partnership we're in given that's a foundation for our family. And I think this is actually the right question and it is why I feel so passionate about the work that is good inside. Because I think we approach the whole system at once.
- [07:34]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's it.
- [07:34]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's it. Yeah, that's what it is. How can I understand how to validate my kids experience and understand that yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal in my life, but it is a big deal to not be invited to a birthday party. How can I see that as real for my 4 year old but not add on my own anxiety of oh my goodness, my four year old's never gonna have friends.
- [07:53]
Dr. John DeLoney
I'm gonna call that mother and say, you should have invited my kid here.
- [07:56]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right, exactly right. And so I think what it starts with is div developing a different type of relationship with ourselves. If I'm someone who grew up in a kind of stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about household. Right? We don't do this in our family. You're soft. Whatever it is, then it makes sense. When I see my kid upset, I get very triggered. I yell or I shut them down. Because at some point it was adaptive to shut my own emotions down during my earliest years. And so I think sturdiness as an example, if that's a parent I'm talking to, I'd say, look, I know you to show up in a different way to your kid. That's amazing. And let's have an order of operations in which that makes sense. I can't give out what I don't have inside me. It just. The math doesn't work. So I might even say, tell me about something hard in your day. It can be really hard if you grew up thinking emotions were soft. And actually the starting point before I talk to my kids differently is even just to be able to say to myself, I hit traffic today. That wasn't the biggest deal in the world. But I'm also allowed to take a moment to say, that was annoying. My morning didn't start out the way I wanted it to. That is not what I imagined. That's not what I would have wanted. Our ability to even just take a moment and say that to ourselves, that's gonna make us better able to not Be so thrown off by my kids emotion because I'm building up the skill inside.
- [09:21]
Dr. John DeLoney
I had an experience when my show took off. There was a big dirty secret that I carried, which was I'm out here traveling the country, talking to folks. But my daughter, she was five or six, wouldn't hug her dad. And I couldn't figure it out. And at first it was like I would, I'm a big guy. I could pick her up and she would go rigid and. And it was kind of a funny game, but also it wasn't funny. And it wasn't until my wife said, is there any chance that her body's identified to you as not safe? And I remember thinking, I said out loud, like, I don't yell, I don't hit anybody. And she goes, no, no, no, no, you're a great dad, but we all can feel the nuclear reactor here, right? And I got frustrated and I went and sat with a therapist and I was like. And nine months later, I remember a. And it was going through some hard stuff, right? And I remember those. Speaking the words out loud. We were all wrestling and I said the words, josephine, get off me. And I remember, I was like, no way. Right? And now three or four years later, I'm a human jungle gym. She can't get off. But I realized the angst and the turmoil in my house was, you keep doing this. It's funny because just maybe a month ago, I was sitting in front of that same therapist and I said, I just need what I know to be true, to be here. And she's like, that's a long journey. And. But what you're saying rings true with me, which is my kids can't not be anxious if I'm electric all the time or if me and my partner aren't doing good. They can't, they don't have anything to anchor into. And so. But I walk around blaming them for the tension in the house. And all they're doing is absorbing and putting back into the world what I'm putting in there. I feel like we have a culture that's that, that loops and loops on this idea of being happy, happy, happy, happy. And then which, depending on where you, what you Google, it always spits out some kind of curve, right? The U shaped happiness curve of your life. But there's this idea that having kids takes happiness from you. And now for the first time in history, people are just opting out completely. How do you balance? And you do the best at this, of telling the truth and also telling the truth. How do you navigate looking at somebody saying, you can. We're in a, in a, in a world, in a little silver of history, you can choose whatever you want. And having kids isn't the funnest thing or the happiest thing all the time. But also on the back end, the research says the depth of joy is pretty profound.
- [11:57]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [11:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
And there's, there's, there's something worth. It's kind of like doing a workout. Right. There's something worth going in there and being uncomfortable for an hour so that 30 years from now I can roll around with my grandkids. Right.
- [12:08]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [12:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
How do you walk through that season with somebody talking? Your happiness shouldn't dictate. Right. It shouldn't dictate every minute of your day. And there's some things to sacrifice for.
- [12:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. I mean, I think you're asking so many, so many questions here, like in all the right ones. So number one is, what is the difference between kind of short term convenience and.
- [12:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
Gosh, that's the right word, convenient.
- [12:34]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
It's convenience. I think that's what I actually feel like humanity, humans, we like convenience. It's hard to fight it. It's dopamine, it's ease. It's the thing that short term, our body's like, yes, please, more of that. And so there have always been these moments, I think, in history where, you know, society, we have more convenience in our life. Obviously, the car is one, the plane, the Internet. Something has happened, I think, in the last number of years where I think we will always choose convenience over what is long term good for us. It's hard, but I think we're seeing, even in whether people are deciding to have children or not, even how we interact with our kids, that we are prioritizing convenience in a way I think that we never have before to the degree it makes us kind of worried at times, like, ooh, what, what is it gonna be like in 20, 30 years? Right. Obviously the world, right. We, we have a lot of inconvenient moments, and I think that is something around parenthood that we just have to talk more about. Having young kids is massively inconvenient. I think that's like the best definition. Like, I go to the grocery store, I'm just trying to get milk and some orange juice. My kid has a meltdown, and I'm like, now I have to leave, and now I have to put those things back, and I can't even pay for them because the line is too long, and now I have to get back there. That is hugely inconvenient. And we don't say that enough. It's not rainbows and butterflies when you have your three year old freaking out and your six month old on your chest. Right. And I actually think the more we can help people anticipate these inconvenient moments, know that those moments aren't a sign that something's wrong with you or wrong with your kid. It doesn't mean you're doing something so bad. And when we can help a generation of adults build more coping skills for the inconvenient. Grocery store meltdown. For the inconvenient. No, you do it for me. Puzzle moment with your kid. For the inconvenient moment of I thought I was gonna have 10 minutes alone with my kid after work before they go to bed and instead they're protesting and they're having a hard time. Those moments are a gap between our perceived unconscious expectation and reality. And I think speaking more honestly about parenting doesn't make parenting less desirable. It actually makes parents a lot more competent and a lot more equipped for all of the ups and downs that are just inherent in the journey.
- [14:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
Well, that's what I love about what you guys do here at Good Inside is. It's the same way when I talk to a husband or a dad who grew up getting beat up, getting thrown around and finding himself not wanting to repeat that. But there's no other plan. And if I can take away, if I can demoralize it and I can take away this, this like you have character issues and say, dude, you lack some skills, man. You've never practiced this before.
- [15:24]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Exactly.
- [15:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
But you give parents permission to say you've never had a, a meltdown with a three year old. I remember getting two kids out of car seats and, and thinking, I would rather set myself on fire. Like I can just. It will take me 30 seconds to go in that store and get what I need. And yet it's the in and the out. But you distill it down to a set of skills people don't have. And when it's a skill, then I can practice it. It's a free throw. I can practice that. If it's a shame filled failure, I'm not going to practice. I'm just going to try to bulldoze through it or I'm going to try to go around it. Right. Ignore it.
- [15:56]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right. I mean, I think, I really think parenting is the last frontier where we glorify instinct alone.
- [16:02]
Dr. John DeLoney
Instinct alone.
- [16:04]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
It is especially insane because again, you want to Go to the doctor who has the best medical school. They wear that with a badge of pride. And I don't know one investor anymore who'd invest in a CEO founder who said, I'm never going to need executive coaching. I do it by instinct. You're like, I'm glad we established that this meeting is over. Thank you for saving me my time. And yet with parenting, there's this idea, and it's put out in society, especially with moms. But anyone, maternal instinct, I should be able to figure this out on. It shouldn't be this hard. I mean, you are one human raising a totally different human. There is nothing harder than that. And I think I love a good metaphor to really drive this home. And so, to me, most parents I know would say, there might be some things with my kids I want to do similarly to how my parents did it with me, but there's definitely a lot I want to do differently. Some people say I want to do almost all of it differently, but if we think about that, I don't like those people. Right. Think about parenting as a language. It's like saying, I was raised in English, and I want to speak to my kids in Mandarin. No amount of wanting to learn Mandarin is going to help you learn Mandarin if you're not learning and practicing Mandarin. Like, if I said to my friend, I just feel like now that I'm a mom, Mandarin's gonna come naturally. I should be able to figure it out my own. They'd be like, yeah, that's just not how Mandarin works. Like, you can learn it, but you will have to learn the skills and practice. And then in your worst moments, Becky, you are gonna end up yelling in English. Like, that's just what's going. And I really do think, good inside is like a language for parents where the only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. And so if you want to do things differently, I do think loving our kids a lot of these moments, that deep love can come naturally. But, yeah, handling a grocery store meltdown, knowing what to do when your kids ask you hard questions, but how does the baby get in the belly? And you're like, okay, okay. You're really asking me. Okay, okay. Or lying to your face or being woken up at 2am for the ninth night in a row.
- [18:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
Row.
- [18:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I. I think you're right. Like, that's not character. That's not love. That's skills. And the best news about skills is you're not behind.
- [18:16]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's right.
- [18:17]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Anyone can learn it at any Time.
- [18:20]
Dr. John DeLoney
What do you. Well, here's. I tell me if I'm crazy. I get. So I'll get a call and it will be a dad or it'll be a wife. And they will say, or dad or mom. And they'll say, our sex life has fallen apart and we've been married 10 years. And then we talk and we talk and we talk and we talk. And then they'll say, oh, we have a five year old, a three year old and a one year old. And I'm pretty sure, like my partner's pregnant. And I'll often just stop and say, hey, call me back in five years. Yeah, like there's, there's gonna be. There's gonna be survival sex. There's gonna be just gaps. You're gonna have to learn how to communicate in other ways. You're gonna. Like we don't have a picture.
- [19:05]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [19:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
None of us talked. What about what this is supposed to feel like? And that I'm allowed to miss somebody or miss the old days and we're creating new new days.
- [19:15]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [19:15]
Dr. John DeLoney
But there's no skill. And how do we sit down and talk about. All right, now we have this chaotic world. What's intimacy look like in this new world? What does laughter look like in this new world? What does getting away look like in this new world? Am I bananas?
- [19:29]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I think that what you're saying, and I said this recently to a live audience that seemed to really resonate, is we have a better understanding of how kids learn how to swim than we do about anything about child development. Because if you think about, I don't know, if you did swim lessons. I did swim lessons for my kids. You spend a lot of time and a lot of money and it just takes a long time. Where imagine if you didn't understand the swim process the first, second lesson, you know what you'd say? This isn't working, this isn't working. I'm just gonna pull my kid out of swim. Or this is a bad teacher. Or my kid's never gonna learn how to swim. We know that when your kid puts their face in the water and blows bubbles, by the way, you're still years from swimming. But we're like, yay, right? Because you know, to expect it. Whereas, what is it like to be partnered up and raising young kids? What's gonna change in my partnership? What is the energy shift going to look like? What is it like when my kid starts to hit to know what are the skills they need to learn to stop hitting? But how Long will it take between learning skills, practicing skills, and seeing it show up in the game? I was talking to Duke women's basketball coach and it was interesting. She's like, you watch tape all the time and you look at players reads. And some players in certain moments, they have tough reads. So we have to change it. And you practice and you practice and you practice and then in the game, it doesn't show up. And you practice and you practice and then one day later than you want, you're like, oh, there it is, there it is. But all of this actually has so much to do with expectation, because how we all end up feeling in any moment isn't just a feeling. It's often the feeling and how surprised we are by the feeling. And I always think if we can remove the surprise, feelings are still hard, but they're a lot less explosive. So if I know a couple examples, I have a five year old, a three year old, a one year old, and I'm sitting being like, I don't have sex with my parents partner anymore. If I can say to myself, after I knew this stage was coming, by the way, still permission to feel sad, to feel lost. How else can we feel close? But, but the way it's going to feel, the level out of 10 is gonna be totally different. If I understand why kids lie, my reaction to lying to my face is not gonna be like, let's throw my kid a party. I'm not gonna throw my kid a party for lying at me. But if I understand developmentally what's happening, my reaction's totally different. And so I think this is really a call in parenting. We need education like we need school to some degree, not in the ways of like homework and being yelled at by teachers. Right? But the best part, education is power.
- [22:14]
John
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- [24:05]
Dr. John DeLoney
Cold tub sessions because it's hot, hot, hot.
- [24:09]
John
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- [24:54]
Dr. John DeLoney
Look kind of rad in these joggers.
- [24:56]
John
So if you're ready to beat the heat and look good doing it, go to cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to get 40% off. That's cozyearth.com DeLONEY with code DeLoney. And listen, stay cool my friends.
- [25:14]
Dr. John DeLoney
I want to talk about loneliness and parenting. Yeah, I've got to go back and find the study, but I remember sitting there like stunned by it that there was an old I think it was Native American proverb. But it may have been from somewhere else that no woman should be left alone with a crying baby was just kind of a cultural ethos that. That's madness.
- [25:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [25:36]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I got to thinking about the suburban neighborhood I grew up in Houston where you grab. You. You have a kid and you go home and they put you in this box in your house and you just stay there alone and then you switch out. Right. So my wife was teaching. She would teach classes at night. And then I would just be with this kid who didn't want anything to do with me. And all I felt when I couldn't. I remember just sitting there sobbing, thinking, I can't get my kid to stop crying. What a. You know what I mean?
- [26:05]
John
What a loser.
- [26:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
Not knowing that a six month old is a bundle of. It's a nervous system that's just out in the world. Right.
- [26:12]
John
I couldn't. I could not get him to stop.
- [26:14]
Dr. John DeLoney
But I didn't have anyone to tell that to.
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Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
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Dr. John DeLoney
And I just. So I just sat on it and sat on it and sat on it. And then I thought, I can't do this. I remember when my wife said, hey, the bottles she had pumped and the bottles were in the fridge. I didn't know he put. To warm him up. I remember giving my kid a bottle and he was shaking and I was like, oh, he loves this.
- [26:32]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right.
- [26:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I didn't know.
- [26:34]
John
I didn't know.
- [26:34]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [26:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
I didn't even know what I know.
- [26:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right.
- [26:37]
Dr. John DeLoney
But I knew over time. I sucked at this. I'm failing here. I'm just gonna go work a little bit more. That's how I can help my family the best. How do we talk about being lonely as. As parents.
- [26:47]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [26:47]
Dr. John DeLoney
Especially as young parents or teenage parents. I don't know any parent that wants to feel out of control. Yet you're stuck in your house by yourself and all you have is whatever nonsense is. Is out there.
- [26:58]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. I mean, I do think that aloneness is always the enemy. Right. Where again, we think feelings give us a hard time or experiences give us a hard time. And feelings, experiences, things that happen, those can definitely all be hard. But the thing that's hardest for humans is feeling alone in a heart experience. Feeling alone.
- [27:19]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's the definition of trauma. Right?
- [27:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Is trauma. I think that's what trauma is. It's an event with high emotionality that's stored in aloneness. Now, obviously some events have higher potential for that. But. Yeah, you come home, you have this baby. Nobody's taught you anything. And worse, they've told you, trust your instinct. You're like, well, my instinct might be to yell at a child, so I don't know if that's.
- [27:43]
Dr. John DeLoney
And they tell you, this is magic. It's so great.
- [27:46]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Exactly.
- [27:46]
Dr. John DeLoney
Everything's wonderful.
- [27:47]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So expectations are here, skills are here.
- [27:49]
Dr. John DeLoney
And reality's down.
- [27:50]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And reality's down there. Where, like, when I see a new mom especially, I'm always like, I really had a hard time in the beginning. And let me just tell you, the beginning was like ten and a half months. And they're like, oh. I was like, yeah. There were more unenjoyable moments for me. I struggle with dependency like a lot of people. If you love being around people who are independent, then the beginning stages of parenthood are like, really hard, especially hard. And you're right. When you're then alone. I think what we have the tendency to do, especially when we're alone, is we interpret struggle as our fault.
- [28:27]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yes.
- [28:28]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And so then it's not even the struggle you're responding to as much as the story that it's your fault or that someone more, you know, better would do it differently, or that again, it should be easier, or that you're not cut out to be a parent, or that how I feel in this moment is representative of how I'm going to feel every moment. We do all these grand things. We make it our fault. We make it global when we're alone.
- [28:51]
Dr. John DeLoney
And we make it forever.
- [28:52]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And we make it forever.
- [28:53]
Dr. John DeLoney
What's the antidote to that?
- [28:54]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I mean, I think there's a bunch of antidotes for that. I just cannot overstate the importance of having more of an education for parents. And I don't mean I love Instagram. I do. I love a 60 second clip. But that is a crumb for a parent because you also can't even describe something with nuance. And so we all get these more extreme views of what it should be like. So I think education is one, because even if you're a little alone with a crying baby, but in your head, you've learned enough times, it is not my job to stop a baby's crying. That's actually not my job. That's not good for anyone. This is not a sign of failure. Babies cry. I'm going to support my baby with these words I've learned and practiced. That moment is going to be hard, but it won't spiral you into an abyss. So I think education is just one thing. I think another thing is having some type of community or village. And even if that's online. It's because sometimes your new parent, you're in your house, you're like, I can't even really leave the house to get to this group. That is not one more sign that you're a bad parent. That is a sign you're in an incredibly difficult stage. And I do think one of the things big picture when we're struggling is we can either say this struggle is a sign of something that's my fault, or this struggle is a sign of something I need. And when I need something that's not some again signal that I'm weak, Knowing what you need is like a really important sign of strength. And so maybe I do need to log on somewhere and have a safe talk. Maybe there is a zoom group. Maybe there is a friend I can text. Hey, were the first couple months, like, both incredibly exhausting and mind numbing to you at the same time? Most people who are honest, you're like, that's exactly what it was. Exhausting and difficult and mind numbing all at the same moment that I remember.
- [30:41]
Dr. John DeLoney
My wife saying she went and found three. I have to go find them. But she went and almost, not almost ceremonially, but went and said like, hey, y' all are gonna be my three ride or dies during this. I'm text you it might be at 3am if you're up and will you text me back? And it was just those, hey, this is happening. And getting two other moms who are like, exactly, exactly. Supposed to be like that, and they go, it still sucks. But okay, that's right.
- [31:06]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Because you're removing. If you picture it, you're removing aloneness.
- [31:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And once I know I'm not alone, meaning once I know there's not something wrong with me for feeling this way, it becomes lighter. It doesn't become easy. There's no moment of, like, balloons and rainbows, like when you remove aloneness. But the difference between hard and impossible is big.
- [31:26]
Dr. John DeLoney
Gosh, that's so good. The difference between. Say that one more time.
- [31:31]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
The difference between hard and impossible is big. And I think a lot of moments.
- [31:36]
John
In parenting, it's so huge.
- [31:37]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
It's just they're hard. And that's what I think is so important for parents to know. The best it gets at certain moments is hard. You don't go from impossible to joyful. That is not an arc anybody has ever had. No. And ironically, the better we get at managing the hard, the less often hard becomes impossible. And then the more space there is for moments of joy and connectedness. Right. But that Actually all comes from how we learn to manage the hard. Because if not the hard becomes impossible and crowds out everything. And I think what your wife spoke to community, honesty education and just someone saying, you're not crazy, you're not crazy. That's how it was for me too. Or it wasn't like that for me, but that's okay. And it is like that for you. And that doesn't work mean anything about.
- [32:24]
John
This is a good time.
- [32:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
You should probably go talk to somebody. Right? Or level up. I remember taking a picture of a rash and just sending it to her text group and then being like, all of them wrote back like normal, normal, normal. And I was like, oh God. Cuz, you know, I was like, oh, my kids got some rare, you know, whatever. And it was just. Okay, good.
- [32:41]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right, that's right.
- [32:43]
Dr. John DeLoney
So I want to take a left turn here.
- [32:45]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Great.
- [32:46]
Dr. John DeLoney
I want to talk to. Let me say this. I'm just gonna be as raw as I can with this.
- [32:53]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Great.
- [32:54]
Dr. John DeLoney
So here's what I'm hearing from dads, okay? Useless. They don't want me around. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to ask anybody. I definitely don't want to do this like my dad did. And also this gnawing sense of this data just came out the other day that 25 to 35 year old women have just passed men in earning potential. And like I'm just redundant here. And what they're doing because they can, because there's still society off ramps for men. They're just opting out. They're either leaving or they are leaving with a video game controller. They're leaving on the couch or they are deciding like what I did. I'll just work 90 hours. I can't help in any other way. I'll just put some money in the checking account and then I'll feel good.
- [33:46]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I mean I. You're asking me this question at a really good time because I've been really obsessed with dads in the last kind of couple months and really thinking about dads. And I'm also seeing other dads who are leaning in in a way that I haven't seen or read about in, you know, generations. And so I guess my number one thing I want to say to that is just dads really matter, okay? Dads really matter. And I think when we look at the world we all want to build where people can be in healthy relationships where, you know, that strength is actually so deeply connected to how you relate to what's going on inside you. So yes, being strong relates to how you're able to manage your feelings. And dads have, I think moms have a role to play there too. Dads have kind of really amazingly unique role to rewrite a different story for their sons and their daughters. And I think one of the things that you're putting together and I think a lot of dads struggle with this, is equating kind of knowing what to do with being important. Those are two very different things that.
- [34:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
Took me a long time.
- [34:54]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right. And dads can even still have a really positive impact on their kids when they don't know what to do. And I think there's a way of naming this like every, every parent. But if dads feel like, oh, I'm just in the way and I don't know what to do. Something that's always helpful to say to a kid is, I'm not sure exactly what to say right now. But I want to tell you I'm here. I'm not sure what to do and I'm worried I'm gonna get it wrong. But I love you. You're a good kid. We're gonna get through this. Like, you can just put out there the first part. I don't know what to do. I'm not sure how to respond to this. I feel like there are words I would wanna say and I don't have them right now. And I want to assure you I'm here with you.
- [35:38]
Dr. John DeLoney
There's a guy I have high, high respect for and his kids are just extraordinary. And I asked and he said I just started taking him to breakfast once a week. So I started out with my son and it was boring. And then it was boring. And then it was boring. And then it was, hey, dad, I think there's this girl and. But it was. Or hey, explain to me some deep theological. But it only came from presence and presence and presence.
- [35:58]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I think that's right. The input is more and longer than any of us in this efficiency oriented world that we live in would want it to be. You do get a lot of rejection from your kids. And I think we take the bait. Oh my gosh, way too often. As if that's the whole truth. When it. If you actually reframe your kids. Pushback or eye roll as they're trying to just figure out how much to take in from me and how close to be. And they're young, so by the way, no adults do that terribly well either, you know, but they're just Kind of muddying through it, right? And they're also kind of unconsciously testing out, how much can I trust my parent, how much can I trust my dad? Because I'm gonna say it wrong one time and I'm going to get overwhelmed. And before I even go to kind of the depth I'd wanna have in the relationship, I need to know that I have a parent who can take it. And so they do kind of test out, I don't wanna go to breakfast with you. I have nothing to say to you. And again, if we can just think, do not take the bait. Right? And I think there's a way in which this has felt like, weak. I can't let my kid get away with that. But I often tell people, like, imagine Steph Curry or LeBron, and you see them with a group of 8 year olds or 16 year olds and they're like, steph Curry, you're the worst shooter in basketball. And then you hear Steph Curry being like, you can't say that to me. You'd be like, steph, like, get a hold of yourself. You know what a sturdy person does? They don't respond because they know who they are. And they don't need a 16 year old or an 8 year old to prove it to themselves. They're secure enough that they can hear something about them that they know isn't true. And they don't need to prove their own truth in the relationship. So I tell especially dads, like, channel your inner LeBron. Like, you would not want to see LeBron saying, you don't want to go to breakfast with me. You're like, lebron, dude. Like, come on. You're like, envious, All Star. Just, like, take a deep breath, relax, you know?
- [37:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay, but the next step is we're going.
- [38:00]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's almost like the goodwill hunting scene. Like, we're having this. We're gonna sit here.
- [38:05]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [38:05]
Dr. John DeLoney
We don't have to say anything.
- [38:06]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [38:07]
Dr. John DeLoney
I'm gonna eat.
- [38:07]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [38:09]
Dr. John DeLoney
So this is me, like, taking a Johnism and you tell me if this is right or wrong.
- [38:13]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Okay.
- [38:13]
Dr. John DeLoney
I often tell parents, and maybe I'm hitting the pendulum too hard. Your 9 year old doesn't get a vote in your emotional state. And like, and that may be too far, but I want parents to practice. They don't get a vote. Dude, they're nine. Like, we as a society don't let them drive or buy cigarettes. Right. Because they're nine.
- [38:33]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right.
- [38:33]
John
And so my nine year old can.
- [38:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
Pop off all day Long I can sit down when the smoke is clear and talk about that's disrespectful.
- [38:40]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [38:40]
Dr. John DeLoney
And, or in our house we have a values like this is who we are and that way I can point back and say we all agreed like you're at the table. This is not how we talk to each other in this house. But I'm not, I'm not going to outsource my feelings to my 9 year old or my 15 year old. And it's hard.
- [38:57]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah, right. It's hard because then if we're not outsourcing it, the reason it's hard is we actually have to do it.
- [39:04]
Dr. John DeLoney
I've got to do it for myself. That's right.
- [39:06]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You know, but it is true. And so I, I don't mind you don't have a vote. I guess I'd put a tweak on it just because it's a little bit, to me, overdramatic. Our kids, they feel our intention over our intervention, they feel our mindset and they feel, are you looking at me like we're on the same team and you like me or even though you're saying the same words, are you looking at me like I'm a nuisance or like I'm difficult?
- [39:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
Are you looking at your phone while you tell me that?
- [39:31]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That too. Right. So I think there's something too. And again, I think everything at good inside. We always come back to these two things at once. I could validate my kid's reality and my kid needs to know I'm not overtaken by it, that I have their long term interest in mind and I won't let their short term protest get in my way of doing what I know is good for them. This is like a pilot saying we need to make an emergency landing and you might be on a plane being like, oh man, I have this meeting, I have this wedding and maybe you think it's not that big of a deal and you start protesting. Then imagine your pilot saying, oh, you're right, actually forget we won't land, we'll.
- [40:07]
Dr. John DeLoney
Go through the storm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I wanted you to say to me, it does stink that you can't get to your wedding, but I also don't want you to change your mind. And so I think you're taking your kid to breakfast and they're like, I don't wanna go with you. I'm just gonna stay quiet the whole time. Validate something in there. Just even if it's like, I get it, it's not what you wanna Do.
- [40:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's boring.
- [40:30]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah, yeah, I get it. I'm just like, not high on your list of people to have interesting conversations with. I get it. You know, and we are gonna go and if you're quiet the whole time, that's how today's breakfast. But it's important for me, maybe not for you. It's important for me that we get good time together. Like, I just think as a kid, they're not gonna grat. And then we think we're gonna say these things. I think, John, this is the other part. We say these things like, it's important for me to get time together. You can just sit there, you know, maybe that's how today's goes. But we're gonna go out for pancakes. Whatever it is, we think our kid's gonna look at us after and be like, dad, you crushed that moment.
- [41:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
Thank you. No, Right, right.
- [41:08]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Or I set a boundary, you know, oh, no, there's no sleepover on a Wednesday. And I think my kid's gonna say, that is reasonable. I do have a school tomorrow. Good call. I love you. You're a sturdy leader. You know, like my kids have never said that to me. And so kids are allowed to protest. We still, as the leader of our home, just like the CEO of a company, you have to make good long term decisions even when the people around you are focused on short term ease and comfort.
- [41:36]
Dr. John DeLoney
That, that though impacts. We have a very unintentional culture. We're just getting to the next thing. And that's. That suggests if you bring a child into the world, you owe it to yourself and to your community and to your neighbors and to your kids. You have to start being intentional with your life.
- [41:58]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
At least some. Like, I'm a realist some percentage of the time. Like I, I prioritize short term ease too sometimes. Right.
- [42:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
I always say, like, I'm.
- [42:07]
John
I don't want to fall off the.
- [42:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
Wagon, but sometimes I'll park it and climb off and roll around in the mud and then I'll get back on it.
- [42:11]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right. That's fine. Right again. There's no perfection here. There's no parent. I know. Definitely not me. It was like, I am always making long term good decisions. No, I'm like a human hello. But. But there is something to a little inventory of like, all right, let me look at this week. What is my I always say at good inside? We're very long term greedy in our parenting. Our kids are gonna be 18 and over. They're gonna be out of our house for so many more years than they're in our house, which also means for so many more years than they're locked into a relationship with us. They will choose whether they want to be in a relationship with us. And so these long term decisions matter. And we don't build strong relationships with our kids by saying yes to them all the time and giving into short term stuff all the time because they end up resisting. Why didn't you make good decisions? Why didn't you land the plane when you needed a parent? Yeah, I needed a pilot. I didn't have my pilot license then. And so that stuff really does build a long term relationship, but it won't lead to a short term high five.
- [43:10]
John
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- [44:48]
Dr. John DeLoney
You changed how I define the word guilt. Talk me through that.
- [44:53]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [44:53]
Dr. John DeLoney
Cuz when you said it I've been teaching on guilt for years and when you said it I was like Well.
- [44:57]
John
I was wrong on that one.
- [44:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
So walk me through guilt.
- [45:01]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So this, to me is like, how so many of the different things I think about happen, where I just keep hearing these things from parents. Like, what does that mean? What do you really mean by that? And so something I'd hear, especially from moms, so it could be from dads, is okay. I've put my kid to bed for 39 straight nights. I'm going out to dinner with my college girlfriend who's in town, but my kid's clinging to me. And they're like, you have to put me down. And then they'll say to me, I feel so guilty. And then I don't go. Or, I want to sleep in one weekend morning. But I feel like if I tell my partner, they're going to tell me how tired I am, and then I'd feel too guilty. And I kept thinking, this is interesting because our emotions, our information and our emotions have evolutionary purpose. So what are we doing that some emotion is getting in our way of doing something that's good for us? And that's when I realized I don't think people in those scenarios are talking about guilt at all. Because to me, what guilt is, it's a feeling we have when we act out of alignment with our values. And again, then that's important because even.
- [46:01]
John
If it's uncomfortable, it's an important feeling.
- [46:03]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. Your body's like, I'm gonna make you feel uncomfortable. Not to send you into a spiral, but to get you to pause and ask yourself, well, why did I yell at the taxi driver? Why am I late to every meeting if I can actually reflect on that? Because guilt helps me reflect, then I can change. Amazing. But then I kept thinking, but going out to dinner here and there with a friend, I know that woman, that's in alignment with her values. Okay. And Right. Whatever. The other seeping in one weekend morning, like, that person values rest. So what is this? And what I realized is there are so many moments that we say, I feel guilty that we're not talking about guilt. When we say, I'm too guilty to have dinner with a friend once in a while. I'm too guilty to sleep in and let my partner take care of the kids. One weekend morning. I think what we're actually speaking to is our tendency to notice other people's distress. My kids distress that I'm leaving my partner's. Oh, but it's gonna be hard to take care of the kids alone. Two situations when there's distress and I look at those Feelings of distress. And I'm kind of like, no, I'll take those from your body. I will put them into my body and I will call it guilt. But it's not really guilt. It's just my tendency to take on other people's emotions and process their emotions for them.
- [47:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
And that I have a jaunism. The thing, the tools you use to keep you safe as a kid will by and large destroy your adult relationships.
- [47:37]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
One hun. I mean that's right. Where everything we struggle with in adulthood was an adaptation in childhood. I think that form of guilt, it does everybody, like you're saying, a big injustice because number one, we have to start with a place of true compassion. And I would say further appreciation. Anybody who's listening is like, I do that. Maybe I'm not guilty. Maybe I'm just taking in other people's emotions to start with. Hold on. I would say to myself, like, thank you, thank you for your years of service. Really thank you for your years of service. That protected me, that was adaptive. During all of my early years when I needed to figure out who I needed to be in my family of origin to get the most love and protection I could. And if taking care of other people's emotions was the way I did that, then like, boy, was I a crafty 8 year old to figure that out.
- [48:35]
John
And like, can I click on something?
- [48:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [48:41]
Dr. John DeLoney
So peacekeeping is one. I found love by being sexually active a lot. I drank too much into drugs as a kid. Good. I, I'm hearing more and more 35 year olds looking at their 18 year old self or their 16 year old self with a lot of condemnation or the 21 year old self trying to survive. And so like, like saying I'm a people pleaser that tends to have less cultural baggage than some of these other things. And there's something about telling us like dude, like hug your 16 year old self. They're doing what they could to survive.
- [49:20]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right. Right.
- [49:20]
Dr. John DeLoney
We don't let them, we don't let them buy beer. They were trying, they were doing what they had to do to survive.
- [49:25]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah, you're talking about like you know, being very sexually active. You could say, okay, well what was my body was seeking connection, closeness. In what ways was that allowed growing up?
- [49:36]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's right.
- [49:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
If I was a, if I'm a man, like was I a boy who could have gone to a parent saying I'm having a hard time with math, I feel left out by my friends, would I have been greeted with like a hug? I'M so glad you're talking to me about this. Or would I have been given.
- [49:52]
John
Shut up.
- [49:52]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Get out. Exactly. Or, like, even hearing that suggestion. Are you, like, you must not know my family to even ask that question. But that's evidence of. Oh, so what did I do at age 5, 8, 11, 16 to figure out how to be close to people, given that's a basic evolutionary need. It's oxygen for a child, 100%. And so. Wow. I figured out that one avenue was, like, a lot of sex.
- [50:22]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah. Physical contact.
- [50:24]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Okay. Well, even if that doesn't work for me now, I can still take a moment to understand its origin and, yes, have some appreciation for that kid. Part of me that was kind of thinking, okay, this avenue's closed off. This avenue's closed off. And instead of shutting down, as a human being, I was like, wait, I found it. Reckless sex.
- [50:46]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay. Like, be compassionate to that kid. Yeah.
- [50:49]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And almost, like, appreciative. You can appreciate someone's attempt to protect you totally separate from the impact that form of protection ended up having.
- [50:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
There you go. Yeah. If you sit with addicts and. Or let me rephrase it. If you see people who are struggling with addiction, it's that. It's like, how'd you know? When you say, like, no alcohol works.
- [51:09]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right.
- [51:09]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's amazing.
- [51:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right. Right.
- [51:11]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's amazing.
- [51:11]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [51:12]
John
Right.
- [51:12]
Dr. John DeLoney
Marijuana. It's amazing.
- [51:14]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Dr. John DeLoney
And over time, it may not be adaptive.
- [51:18]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right? That's exactly right.
- [51:20]
Dr. John DeLoney
And there's an exhale, but there's some. Yeah. I love that idea of being compassionate and seeing where that behavior has. Behavior sounds so. Like, I'm your dad, but like, where that expression. There you go. Like, as you're older. Where is that? Still trying to. Where's my body still trying to take care of me in those ways? And where is it now? Maladaptive.
- [51:37]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
It's not.
- [51:37]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's not helpful.
- [51:38]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And I think this is. This goes directly to kind of this next gener I feel so passionately about raising. Where if we teach kids that they're acting out behavior is not a sign of who they are, but it's a sign of what they need. That means they are going to be more and more likely to figure out other ways to get what they need that are more adaptive.
- [52:01]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yes.
- [52:01]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right. And so even though we're talking about sex at age 16, this is actually the same as thinking about hitting. Okay. So my kid at age 3 is hitting not because they're a bad kid, not because they have some character deficit. It's because they're frustrated that their sister has their favorite truck and they don't yet have a skill to manage that frustration.
- [52:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:24]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Okay. So we can teach that. And then, by the way, anger is a healthy emotion. Anger tells us what we need.
- [52:31]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yes.
- [52:32]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I don't want anyone to ever lose touch with their anger, because anger in that way is a sign that you still have some type of self confidence, self respect to think you deserve things. Now, learning how to manage anger, that comes to skills and curiosity. And I think as a culture, we've received such little curiosity and compassion in our early years for the source of our behavior that we almost think compassion is dangerous. Like, someone's like, I'm gonna be compassionate about this awful behavior. Like, whatever you've tried, I promise you shame locks you into bad behavior way more than compassion does every time.
- [53:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, yeah. There's a great minister in our community that says, whatever you think here hates doing love will do better, I assure you. Right. And so you can hate this thing or you can say, come sit down. Yeah, Exactly. How do you. On the flip side of that, if we can look at childhood behaviors, is often a kid saying, I don't have the skill set here, or I'm expressing a need for something.
- [53:28]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Y.
- [53:30]
Dr. John DeLoney
Was it like, 65% of homes are single parent homes now? What do you say to the parent that's working three jobs and they see these behaviors in their kids? They know they're there and they're between a rock and a hard place.
- [53:44]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes. I mean, the first thing I would say is probably no words at all. I just want to give that person a hug and say, holy moly. You are managing more than is humanly possible. And again, the setup of childcare and of support for parenting is completely lacking. Right. And I think that's also one of the reasons we see declining birth rates. People are like, yeah, I don't.
- [54:05]
Dr. John DeLoney
I can't afford it. Yeah.
- [54:06]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. And I don't know about this setup anymore. You know, Like, I'm starting to question it. The next thing I would say to that parent is, there are probably ways to think smaller. I think when we're struggling with our kids, we think really big and it can get away from us in terms of, okay, it's hard for you to connect with your kid. And the parents are like, I'm gonna take them to the amusement park on Saturday. And then I'm like, in traffic and I'm spending so much money and I'm resentful. I'm gonna be without My phone for three hours. I'd. Look, with all due respect, you are rarely without your phone for five minutes. Let's just start with five minutes. Right? And I'm not saying that cause I don't believe in someone. I'm actually saying that because I do believe in someone. So let's just set ourselves up so that single parent is working three jobs. Like, can you say to your kid today, I just want to tell you you're a good kid and I love you. I want to tell you I'm sorry for the moments I yell. That's a sign of my exhaustion, not a sign of anything about you. I just did an intervention. In 10 seconds I can kind of say okay, okay. Did one small shift today and then I could do another small shift tomorrow. And that's kind of as good as it gets.
- [55:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
Dang. Can we do three minutes? Okay, cool.
- [55:11]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [55:11]
Dr. John DeLoney
All right, I'm going to. I want to run through some rapid fire here. Okay.
- [55:14]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [55:17]
John
What do you tell the mother or.
- [55:19]
Dr. John DeLoney
Father who doesn't want to play their kids? Cuz it's boring.
- [55:22]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I would say, number one, it's okay.
- [55:24]
John
Can we say that out loud?
- [55:25]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes. It's okay. That play feels boring. It feels boring for a couple reasons. Our life is full of so much dopamine now and so much instant gratification where play is slow and without dopamine. So that's number one. Number two, a lot of people find play very hard with their kids because nobody played with them. And so if you realize, oh, I'm doing something that generationally has never been done before, of course it's gonna feel deeply uncomfortable. Set yourself up for something small. It's two minutes of playdough. It's a five minute game. And then I think those increments probably over time feel less boring because again, you've worked worked up for them and.
- [56:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
We'Ve had to get creative. In our house we have a wrestling mat that we roll out that the. That especially. I thought my son liked his. My daughter loves it.
- [56:14]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
But.
- [56:14]
Dr. John DeLoney
But yeah, yeah. Okay. Finding things that can also. Okay, awesome. Is my kid manipulating me? They're good at home or they're terrible at home, but they're good out there.
- [56:26]
John
So I know they can.
- [56:27]
Dr. John DeLoney
So it must be. And I guess the meta question here is projecting adult ways of being and navigating social situations onto a child.
- [56:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah, I, I don't think manipulating is a helpful framework for kids or adults. I actually think the single biggest thing we can change as a parent isn't a strategy it isn't a script, it's our mindset. As soon as you think about your kid as manipulating you, you're in enemy territory with each other. And then we're going to intervene like they're our enemy, which means they're going to get defensive, they're going to feel disconnected, power struggle, screaming, et cetera. I would say the same thing as an adult. As soon as you think my friend is manipulating me, enemy territory, it's just. It's actually just not useful. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant. I think instead you can say, what would make my kid behave one way at school and another at home, what would make me behave one way at work and then give it to my husband is because I'm manipulating him. I think someone there would say, oh, probably not. Maybe you're, again, you're exhausted. Maybe he's actually your safe person. Maybe he has to establish what is okay and what's not okay while still not kind of demonizing you. And I think that's. That's what I would shift about.
- [57:36]
Dr. John DeLoney
Is it true that kids, by and large do what works contextually?
- [57:40]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You know what? I don't think it's even that intentional where I was wrong on that one. I just think our kids are trying to figure out how to kind of operate in the world and how to build skills. And they usually see us as like the safest container, which doesn't make bad behavior okay, but it does mean it's a clue, contextualize exactly to what's going on. And if we see it that way, we can almost oddly become like almost weirdly excited when our kids have a hard moment. Because if you're oriented by impact instead of just by short term ease, then you know when your kid lies to you or when your kid says, I'm not going to bed, that you actually have an opportunity to build skills for anxiety, to build skills for shame. These are things that are going to happen over and over. And so you see these hard moments not as a sign your kid is manipulating you, but actually is kind of like a high impact opportunity, like a.
- [58:41]
Dr. John DeLoney
Pathway back to him. Dude, I love that. Okay, last one. Okay, what's the. Oh, man. We could have talked about kids and technology. We'll have to do a whole other show on that. Two more real quick sleepovers. Yay or nay?
- [58:55]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I think it depends on the kid and depends on the family. So I'm not yay or nay as like a rigid rule. I think it's great in general for kids to have Opportunities to have risk, to be uncomfortable, to consolidate skills away from you. That's the only time kids do consolidate skills. Whether that happens in a sleepover or it happens in another type of environment is really based on the family and what feels right to them.
- [59:21]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's okay. Great answer. Last one. Where are you most misunderstood?
- [59:26]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I think that we get kind of lumped into snowflake parenting. Soft quote, gentle. And I think like we started with this idea of sturdiness really shows the difference. But as a world, as a society, we are getting increasingly bad at holding two seemingly oppositional truths at the same time. I actually think this is one of the things good inside can bring to the world. It's like if we raise a generation of kids who know I can have a relationship with my feelings and I can be firm and boundaried and assertive. Actually those things work best together. We are showing that you can kind of have both at once and that that's the model of parenting where I think we can be misunderstood. But I feel so passionately about continuing to bang the table and say, yes, parents, you are an authority. You set limits, you make key decisions, you set boundaries. And while you do that, you can stay connected to your kid. You can have both at the same time.
- [60:31]
Dr. John DeLoney
I'm not even going to say anything after that. That was amazing. Appreciate it. Awesome.
- [60:36]
John
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- [61:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
The amazing Becky Kennedy.
- [62:01]
John
And listen, we've linked to everything the Good Inside app, which is incredible if you're a parent and you're just looking.
- [62:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
For what to do next when you get all kinds of wild things.
- [62:11]
John
It's a great app. We've linked to that. We've also linked to her book Good.
- [62:15]
Dr. John DeLoney
Inside and all the other stuff we talked about.
- [62:18]
John
Thank you so much for joining us. Check her out on social media.
- [62:21]
Dr. John DeLoney
She's a great follow.
- [62:23]
John
And I'll see you soon.
- [62:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
Be kind.
- [62:27]
John
Right now it feels like that's pretty.
- [62:28]
Dr. John DeLoney
Much all we got left.
- [62:29]
John
Be kind to each other and find somebody to serve.
- [62:32]
Dr. John DeLoney
I love you guys.
- [62:33]
John
Stay in school. Don't do drugs.
- [62:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
Bye.