Conflict Expert: Simple Frameworks to Make Hard Conversations Easier (With Jefferson Fisher)

Summary

Summary of "Conflict Expert: Simple Frameworks to Make Hard Conversations Easier (With Jefferson Fisher)"

The Dr. John DeLoney Show hosted by Ramsey Network features a compelling episode where Dr. John DeLoney engages with Jefferson Fisher, a licensed attorney and renowned conflict expert. Released on March 31, 2025, this episode delves deep into effective communication strategies to navigate and resolve difficult conversations in various relationships. Below is a comprehensive summary highlighting the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Introduction to Jefferson Fisher and His Expertise

[00:05 - 02:10]

Dr. John DeLoney opens the episode by introducing Jefferson Fisher, highlighting his success as an attorney and his prolific influence on communication strategies through his online presence and upcoming book, The Next Conversation: How to Argue Less and Talk More. Fisher’s approach to communication has garnered millions of followers, making his insights highly sought after.

Notable Quote:

• Dr. John DeLoney: "He just feels like a mean boss. And so I feel like there is something different here." [00:19]

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2. Common Communication Challenges in Relationships

[02:10 - 07:31]

The conversation transitions to explore four prevalent questions that callers submit regarding relationship conflicts. Fisher emphasizes the importance of approaching conversations with intention rather than defaulting to small talk, which often leads to miscommunication and defensiveness.

Key Points:

• Avoiding Pleasantries: Starting with pleasantries can derail the core message.
• Setting the Stage: Use phrases like "Can we talk about something important to me?" to invite open dialogue.
• Expressing Needs vs. Wants: Framing requests as wants rather than needs to reduce defensiveness.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "One of the biggest mistakes I see... is when somebody says, we need to talk." [03:10]
• Jefferson Fisher: "Can we talk about something that's important to me? Now it says it's an invitation." [04:00]

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3. Handling Gaslighting and Accusations in Relationships

[07:31 - 16:48]

Fisher addresses the issue of gaslighting—a manipulative tactic where one person makes another doubt their reality. He advises maintaining calm and stating, "I see things differently," to assert one's perspective without escalating the situation.

Key Points:

• Recognizing Gaslighting: Understanding the manipulative nature of gaslighting.
• Staying Still: Responding with calmness and avoiding engagement in the manipulation.
• Setting Boundaries: Clearly stating disagreements without personal attacks.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "The biggest move you can make is no move at all." [09:23]
• Jefferson Fisher: "You can disagree with me. I mean that. Right?" [10:12]

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4. Addressing Intimacy and Stagnation in Marital Relationships

[16:48 - 27:05]

The discussion shifts to the delicate topic of intimacy in marriages, particularly when one partner feels disconnected. Fisher emphasizes the importance of clearly articulating needs and desires without framing them as demands, thereby fostering a more receptive environment for open dialogue.

Key Points:

• Sensitive Topics: Approaching topics like intimacy requires clear and vulnerable communication.
• Avoiding Defensiveness: Being upfront about the nature of the conversation to reduce anxiety.
• Self-Reflection: Encouraging individuals to understand their own needs and questions before engaging in conversation.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "What are you wanting from me?" [20:43]
• Jefferson Fisher: "You can have something to learn rather than something to prove." [16:48]

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5. Navigating Family Relationships and Boundaries

[27:05 - 37:36]

Dr. DeLoney and Fisher explore the complexities of maintaining healthy boundaries with family members. They discuss strategies for deciding when to preserve or cut off relationships that are toxic or no longer beneficial, emphasizing the importance of personal peace over maintaining strained connections.

Key Points:

• Evaluating Relationships: Determining the value and impact of family relationships on personal well-being.
• Setting Boundaries: Politely but firmly establishing limits to protect one’s peace of mind.
• Detachment: Learning to detach emotionally to maintain control during conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "You can get really toxic with that kind of behavior when you put up so many boundaries that you can't move." [22:19]
• Jefferson Fisher: "Are you carrying something they never ask you to hold on to?" [25:48]

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6. Overcoming the Need to Win Arguments

[37:36 - 50:27]

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Fisher's philosophy of not aiming to win arguments but rather to foster understanding and connection. This approach not only preserves relationships but also leads to more meaningful and peaceful interactions.

Key Points:

• Never Win an Argument: Understanding that winning often means losing respect and connection.
• Confidence in Communication: Speaking with confidence and control without the need to dominate.
• Focus on Peace: Prioritizing personal and relational peace over proving a point.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "The whole premise is to never win an argument because you'll start to lose the relationship." [32:29]
• Jefferson Fisher: "I can't make you feel a certain way. Not in the way you ask that question." [19:22]

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7. Managing Defensiveness and Building Connection

[50:27 - 63:54]

The episode further delves into managing defensiveness, a common barrier to effective communication. Fisher provides techniques to reduce defensiveness, such as adding silence to conversations and focusing on one's own emotional regulation.

Key Points:

• Cycle of Defensiveness: Recognizing and breaking the negative loop of mutual defensiveness.
• Self-Awareness: Acknowledging personal defensiveness and striving to respond thoughtfully.
• Active Listening: Understanding that defensiveness often stems from a desire for connection.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "Most people are just looking for an enemy when it comes to conversation." [44:07]
• Jefferson Fisher: "The power of detachment is a true power when you can see conversations happening and step outside yourself." [59:26]

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8. Rapid Fire Social Media Questions

[63:54 - 66:15]

In a lively segment, Dr. DeLoney and Fisher respond to listener-submitted questions, providing practical advice on opening conversations, handling flustered communication styles, recovering from bad conversations, and respectfully shutting down rude or manipulative comments from family members.

Key Points:

• Open-Ended Questions: Utilizing non-judgmental questions like "What’s the chance we can talk about X?" to encourage dialogue.
• Apologizing and Owning Mistakes: Quickly acknowledging and addressing missteps in conversations.
• Respectful Boundaries: Setting limits without escalating conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Jefferson Fisher: "We can figure out how to do that with almost every single phrase." [60:58]
• Jefferson Fisher: "You're looking to feel a certain way, but I can’t give you that." [19:26]

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9. Closing Remarks and Final Insights

[66:15 - End]

The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments and reflections on the interconnectedness of mental, emotional, and physical health. Dr. DeLoney emphasizes the importance of holistic well-being and encourages listeners to utilize the tools and frameworks discussed to enhance their relationship dynamics and personal peace.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. John DeLoney: "If you're ready to make positive physical changes, that can help restore some entirety to your whole self." [49:01]
• Jefferson Fisher: "I've seen people transform into everything about them simply by what they say next." [48:06]

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Key Takeaways

1. Direct Communication: Begin difficult conversations with clear and intentional language to set a constructive tone.
2. Expressing Needs vs. Demands: Frame your desires as wants to reduce defensiveness and invite collaboration.
3. Managing Gaslighting: Maintain calm and assert your perspective without engaging in manipulative exchanges.
4. Setting Healthy Boundaries: Assess relationships critically and establish limits to protect your peace and well-being.
5. Avoiding the Need to Win: Focus on understanding and connection rather than proving a point, fostering healthier and more respectful relationships.
6. Reducing Defensiveness: Cultivate self-awareness and utilize silence to manage reactions and promote thoughtful dialogue.
7. Holistic Well-Being: Recognize the interplay between mental, emotional, and physical health in maintaining overall wellness.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Dr. John DeLoney Show offers profound insights into the art of effective communication, particularly in the context of resolving conflicts within relationships. Jefferson Fisher's expertise provides listeners with actionable strategies to navigate challenging conversations, enhance relational dynamics, and ultimately achieve greater personal peace and connection. By implementing these frameworks, individuals can transform their interactions and build more harmonious and understanding relationships.

Transcript

[Jefferson Fisher]

You set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff. So how was your day? It's great. Oh, yeah? Was that good? Oh, did you see John today?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then what?

[Jefferson Fisher]

And then you go. Exactly. If you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I've never considered that, dude. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson. I'm gonna have to stew on that one. What in the world is going on? This is Jo John, the Dr. John DeLoney Show. So grateful that you are with us. And dude, you are in for it today. You're in for it today. Today is a special, special day for me. I sit down with my friend. We're running it back with the great and powerful and almost all knowing Jefferson Fisher. Millions and millions and millions of people follow him on the Internet. He is a licensed attorney in the Houston area in south Texas and he's got a thriving practice. And a few years ago he got in his car and started making helpful little, little notes for people to use on how to communicate well. And it exploded. And we had him in 2023. It was the top episode of the year. And he has a brand new book coming out called the Next Conversation. It's an outstanding, outstanding book. How to argue less and talk more. One of the most common questions I get on this show is how do we communicate better with our spouses, with our kids, with our, with our romantic partners, with our bosses, with our friends, with our neighbors? Man. In this, in this conversation, we get into some details on how to have hard conversations. We also do a lightning round where we take your questions that y'all sent in via social media. We answer those. It's an amazing conversation. I walked away. I learned a lot. And I can't wait for you to check it out. So buckle up, pull out a pen and a paper and enjoy my conversation with my great friend Jefferson Fiser. I want to talk about the four most popular questions we get on the show.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And there's like five years of me rattling off answers and I'm going to hand it over to you because I don't think I'm doing a great job because I keep getting the same questions.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Giving me five seconds.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, so these are four common calls I get in challenges here. All right, so I'm going to read you how it comes into our team.

[Jefferson Fisher]

All right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right. So people email in or they call in, leave a long message.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, Most people I've seen, like they call in and you're listening to it on the conference.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go. So here's one that somebody wrote in. My husband treats me like a maid. I'm a stay at home mom, which my husband sees as being unemployed. So he's constantly bossing me around and making messes everywhere with the expectation that I should automatically clean him up because, quote unquote, I don't have a job. Now he's complaining I treat him like a roommate. I'm not affectionate enough. But the truth is I don't feel affection towards him anymore. He just feels like a mean boss. And so for me, the meta question here is how do I say what I want or I need or what I need without sounding horrible?

[Jefferson Fisher]

One of the biggest mistakes I see, especially in marriage dynamics, is when somebody says, we need to talk. No, I mean, you can text that and nobody likes to get.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's off. That's right. We're officially in a fight now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Officially. Yeah, you officially hate me, whatever that is. So even if you're in the same room, you're texting, you say we need to talk, period. It automatically goes, somebody's dead or I might as well be. It's going to be me here in a little bit. What happened? And you're always looking for the worst thing. There is a sense of tension when you use the phrase need to as like, you need to go sit down, you need to go do X, Y and Z. And all we do is get defensive. And like, well, what you need to do is. And so we want to match that behavior. And I feel like there is an, it's a way of asserting dominance. Sometimes it's like, you need to go sit down, you need to go watch your mouth. And so anytime you get that, you want to make sure you don't lead with any kind of phrase that says we need to or I need to talk to you. It's going to immediately draw the spikes. Instead, you need to begin with, can we, can we talk about something that's important to me? Now it says it's an invitation. Now we say the rules apply to both of us. When you say can we. So if it is, let's say for this particular caller, can we talk about something that's important to me? That's number one. Number two, you need to tell them where that conversation is going. I feel like, particularly with males, we just look for, is there a bear in the bush? Like, what's going on? I need to know where is this conversation going? Because if I don't, we're going to cut in, try to fix it, try to solve it. Try. And like, oh, no, this is what you mean. And this file says. No, no, no, no. That's not my point. Hear me out. Wait, wait, wait. And we get impatient. Like, can you just get to your point instead? It needs to be. And I'm telling you this because I'm feeling unheard here or I want to walk away from this conversation feeling more understood. Like, you just need to give them a heads up of where that conversation is going. Because too often we don't know what we're talking about until we're already talking.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. Then we end up saying stuff that you can't get back.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. You don't know what to say until you're already talking. And that's when you go to. No, no, give me a second. I'm still figuring it out. No, no, that's not my point. So anytime you're trying to land the plane, it's like you're just trying to find the Runway. When that happens, typically it's going to make the conversation go south. And then three is you need to try and get there into it. So it would be. Can we talk about something that has been weighing on my heart here for a while? And I'm not asking you to solve anything. I just need you to hear me out. Can we do that? Does that sound okay? Is now a good time? And then when you get there, buying in it, you know, now you're in the conversation because people don't like to break their word.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if your husband says, I don't care, you got a bigger issue.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, then you have a way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You gotta solve this thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

A way bigger issue than the conversation.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's not a communication issue.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's not a communication issue. That's a relationship issue.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do people. I've been wrestling with this when it comes to marriage and intimacy and get your opinion on it because it's, it's adjacent to this. I feel like I can weaponize the word need versus want.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So, like, one of my challenges with, like the five love languages is when I identify a way that it feels good, that somebody shows me they love me, then I tell you, you need to do it like this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Versus what I think is a more vulnerable approach is I, I want you to do it like this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because if I say I, I need to, I've put you on, on the block.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If I say I want to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can go, I don't want that. And that's A vulnerable thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Is that right? I think that's.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm toying with it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, there's nothing wrong with that. Using needs can be weaponizing in a way. So. No, this is one of my needs. Needs are more personal than. Than they are. You can't argue obligation.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I can't argue.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And. And so a lot of the times you can be even more. Like when people have problems saying to the other person, describing their needs, telling their needs, asserting their needs, rather than using. I like using preferences. It does the same exact thing. So I prefer if we did this. I'd prefer if we do that. It's a more indirect way of saying it, but it's just as strong because if I say need, then it goes back into that whole thing of dominance.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's it. Then you have to. Right. And if you don't, then you don't love me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it? Yeah, yeah. Dennis, why do you hate me?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, here's another call. My wife is constantly accusing me of cheating on her with no logical reason. Oh, that's a tough one. Other than I always have my phone on me. She has my location, goes through my phone on a regular basis. I'm at my wits end. Don't. Don't know what to do. Should I take a stand or continue to put up with the disrespect? And the bigger question is, how do you react to somebody who's trying to gaslight you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Gaslighting is something that can absolutely drive you insane, because that's. That's what they're accusing you of.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right? Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The way I like to handle gaslighting is a phrase that I use all the time. And this is what I teach is I see things differently. I see things differently. And here, if he's already opened up his entire life to this human, they've.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Got a deeper pathology.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They have a. There's a much deeper issue that's engaged in that than just gaslighting. But when you handle somebody who's gaslighting you, their whole thing is to kind of use a cat with a laser pointer. Like, they just want to point you to different places and hopes that you don't address the real issue. So they want to continue to make a chase. It's kind of a. They'd like to dig a hole. And you have to go, that's not what happened. And you start filling it back up. No, that's not how it happened. And they go, oh, yeah, you did. You don't remember this and then you go, no, no, no, no. Don't you remember? And that's the game as they continue to use it. If you've ever had somebody that, you know the truth went a certain way, you knew the past events went a certain way. And instead what they're doing is trying to go back in time and go, oh, no, don't you remember? You said this and then I said that. And that's when you're going, that's not what happened. They're controlling the narrative to try and play it to their best favor. So often the biggest move you can make is no move at all. And that is just to be still and say, I see things differently. I understand you disagree with me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you wait for an invitation there just to expound? Yes, because I would feel tempted to say, I see things differently, and then, boom, immediately give the counter. But I feel like I'm playing. It's just a sophisticated way of trying to fill that hole back up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's all it is. So it just needs to be, I see things differently, or you can disagree with me. I mean that. Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then just let it hang.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Just let it hang is just stop. Because that's much more powerful than that's not what happened. Don't you remember? And you're trying to, like, prove it. All you're doing is just giving them more string to make a knot with. Instead, if you just say you can, you're free to disagree with me, period. Pause. Nothing. What are they going to do? They have to go find another hole to dig, and then, you know, they're just going to get tired.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Third one, how do I get my husband? And we can edit this out if you don't want to go this way. I just get all these kind of calls.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do I get my husband to try new things in the bedroom, to switch things up, to spice things up? Usually it's the opposite problem. It's the man saying, we never do X, Y, or Z. I want my wife to be open to new things, but for us, it's the opposite. I'm not sure what to do. I feel like we're at a stalemate. He seems very closed off and isn't just really interested in me anymore. And so the bigger question here is, I think it's two questions. One, how do you approach a topic with your partner that's highly sensitive, that you know you're pushing on a button?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've gained 40 pounds, you're not coming home anymore, and you And I both know what that means. I want to try some things romantically and. And then I guess the second question is, I guess reverse. How do I bring up a topic that I know, like tears are right here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or that heartbreak is right here that I gotta put on the table?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So the answer really, for both of those is almost the same.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You. You set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff, the fluff. When you can come into the conversation and let's put it in. Let's put it in a scenario, maybe not in the bedroom context, but let's say you have something sensitive that you're gonna say and begin with, you know, so, how was your day? That's great. Oh, yeah? Was that good? Oh, did you see John today? Oh, that's wonderful.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then wait, and then you go.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And then. Exactly. And then what happens is you hear this. Did you hear John today? That's great. That's crazy. So listen, you know, I had. Right there. That's a. That's it. That's the transition. You heard it. So listen. And then all of a sudden, everybody knows the temperature in the room has gone down. Now it's okay. Where's she heading with this? I'm feeling like there's something that is hidden from me. You're trying to get to the point of, I want to bring up this sensitive issue. All they hear is, I'm so bad. I'm so bad. I need to get defensive right now. I'm not so bad. So they need to put up, put up, put up. Instead, you need to just lead with the hard talk. So if it is I. This is what I like to say. Let me put in some business context real quick. So if something. Somebody's calling me with bad news, like on my team there to say, you're not going to like this, like, right out of the gate. Yes, as soon as I answer it, you're not going to like this. I go, okay, what we got going to deliver it to me. When you can say things like, this is going to be a difficult conversation. This is going to be hard to talk about. This is going to be uncomfortable for me to bring up. This is going to be. I'm going to be vulnerable telling you this whenever you can. Just try and prime the conversation with exactly what it's going to be. This is. Isn't going to be fun for us to talk about. Then you get into the conversation rather than trying to come at it indirectly with a whole Lot of fluff. Or they're. It's just going to work up their anxiety because they're, they don't know where you're going throughout all of it. So that, that would be the biggest takeaway. So if you saying something that you want to have like a very sensitive discussion, let's say it is a. About things that happen in the home, then I, I would prefer that you lead very much with the hard intro. And that is, this is something that's going to be important to me. Have something that's going to be vulnerable for us to talk about. And I'm telling you about it because I know you want me to be vulnerable with you. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I often find in relationships, especially romantic relationships, that the phrase we need to work on our communication is proxy for they're not doing what I want.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. When they say we, it's usually like you got a mouse in your pocket.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He needs to work on his communication.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Or how do you, how do you help the person? In this case, she already feels like an oddball.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She already feels like there's something wrong with her. Right. And so that makes the conversation more personally sensitive. And she's not getting the answer that she wants. At some point it feels like, oh, I just need to say it in a different way.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do you teach somebody to exhale and say, no, you got the answer that you got.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And it's hard to te. Often it is the idea that you have to leave enough room in that conversation for what they're not saying. Often you have people who will very much tell you the truth, but it's in the silence of their words. That's the real answer that they, they could say something. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like are you cheating on me?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. There's a difference in a pause if versus of asking the question that comes after, you know, where were you last night? And there's a ten second pause. Right. And say anything. But they said a lot.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's. Yeah. That, that silence there. It may be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so anytime that it is more of the question of what are they not saying. And if it's something very vulnerable. Another technique is to really just prime the room, prime the conversation, saying, this is going to be something that is sensitive for me. Yeah. And they're going to either engage with you or not. But if somebody feels like they're the, the odd person out and they're looking for the answer they're not getting, that's much Deeper relationship issue that communication is not going to solve.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. I think that may be the magic is trying to find that balance between I'm not communicating in an effective way versus I don't want to hear what the reality, the truth here is. And so I'm going to keep going back and going back and going back.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Hoping for a different.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hope for a different answer. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Praying for that may just be grief.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. Like. Yeah, like we don't have a psychology culturally for.

[Jefferson Fisher]

For grief. Right, of course, yeah. And I also feel that there are people who are in this same type of position and they don't know what answer they're looking for. They don't know. The ultimate question of what they want answered is that because they don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or they can't handle that answer?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Both.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think, I think some of it is they just know. It's a feeling they don't know for a fact. And so they actually don't know the final question of what's the answer that I'm looking for here. They just want to feel a certain way. So most of the time, whenever you find yourself in the same argument, if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it, it's just going to continue to go around because you're not hitting that root cause.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've got a great picture in this book that I'd never seen before and I love the way it looks and it has. It's about something different. But I think it relates here because really what this person is asking is herself, is can I stay married to somebody who's not romantically interested in me?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Can I stay in this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. We've been married almost two decades. Is this gonna be the rest of my life? That's the question they're asking themselves. And they keep putting that on the other person. Am I gonna stay with you? Am I gonna. You help me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have a graph in here where it talks about somebody asks you something saying maybe and it has discomfort.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But then the discomfort just goes indefinitely until this thing happens.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I, when I saw that, I started laughing because I'm so guilty of saying yes to a speaking event and then being mad for the next two months at you for asking me. And I said yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But then you had a. The next picture was saying no and having discomfort high and then fallen off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And there's something about. You're going to get the answer. Should we stay Married.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you keep looping like this, you've been married 17 years, it may be 30 years when this thing finally dissolves. And so You've lost almost 15 years of your life.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Just waiting.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right, Waiting. And so how do you teach somebody to get to the question they're actually asking?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That. That takes a lot of inner work of writing it down.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, that's just. It's plain and simple. There's a difference between distilling, keeping it in your head, and actually getting it on paper, because that. That's going to make it much more tangible. Of what am I asking for? What is the question I need this person to answer rather than what is the feeling I can convince myself that they're giving me? That's a big, big difference. Every time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I've never considered that, Dude. Huh. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson. How often we go into a conversation, especially a difficult one or potentially difficult one, and the answer is secondary.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I want to feel a certain way when this is over.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And no other person can give us that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so if I ask you, are you cheating? And you say, no, I expect to feel better. I'm not gonna feel better.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because I wouldn't have asked that question if I already felt good about our relationship.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or you say, yes, I'm gonna feel. And so there is no way that conversation can win.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, absolutely. So if you. You ask that hard question, are you cheating on me in the answer? And the amiga go, no, the answer your question. That didn't make you feel any better.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because you weren't looking for a conversational answer. You're looking for a feeling.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you got to extract that out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. And so the person can't give you feelings, and that's. That's all something you have within yourself. I can't make you feel a certain way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know that conversation. And so it's the same thing when they're. They answer the question, but yet you still feel it. Like, I'm. I am. I need. I need. I need that feeling. I need that vacuum from you. Give me all the feelings where I feel comforted.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. Let me feel good and safe and secure. You're not going to get that. Not in the way you ask that question.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Dude, that's profound. That means I would almost recommend somebody hold off on what I would say. Like, the buck stops here. Conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Until, like, you. You write about eloquently until you know exactly what you're asking.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. How you want to feel after it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because it's. It can be. Even when you get the answer, it can feel very hollow. Yeah. Because you. You. They're not gonna give you what you were looking for. It was the feeling you were chasing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, I'm gonna have to stew on that one because I think that's. I think that's a huge chunk of the marriage conflicts I enter into sitting with people is I wanted to feel a certain way. And it's like, what?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I want you to feel like you're connecting with maybe on the same page, but it's like, I'm answering your question.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There's no answer I can give you to help you feel.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I answered your question. What are you talking about? What are you wanting from me? Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Dang. Okay, last one here. We're seeing an epidemic of people cutting their families off. I think one out of every four questions we get on the show has something to do with. And again, I'm going to put. I'm going to put abuse way out here right outside the bunker. When I was. My parents had me in their 24, and they didn't give me. Fill in the blank. My dad is 62 and he votes this way. And he won't shut up about whatever. Or every time we go to their house, they're watching this particular news channel. Pick your news channel. And I just won't. Whatever. And then brothers and sisters. So question here is, what are conversations we can have to find out or maybe distill down. Is this a com. Is this a relationship worth cutting off, worth ending? Or is there just some relationships worth preserving even though they're annoying or they're going to be uncomfortable? You know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's hard because there are some people, and we know who those people are who will also weaponize their relationship in a way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Represent. Weaponize their friendship. If you look, you do this. So I can't be friends with you anymore. On a base level, I understand that. But also understand you are putting them in a position of almost a threat of just that. This is. If this is how you want to engage with me, then I can't do that. Depends what they're doing. But there are people who will use that too much when it's like, wait, you only see them maybe once every six months. How much are they really weighing on your peace of mind?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Are you just trying to use this to also control your own environment and how they should react? I mean, my. I mean, you know me. I know You. We're pretty chill.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're right. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know, if you're doing. If you're watching a show that I don't agree with. All right. You know, and so it's. How much are you carrying? Why are you picking it up? Why are you. Why are you holding it? Now again, if it's that dynamic with. They continue to belittle me, put me down. They always make fun of me. They always make me feel less at that family reunion, then you don't go like. So there's some practical things of just physically.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's put it in the physical sense. Are you have to be physically near them? Do you have to choose to be around them or talk to them? I mean that those are some of your base levels.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But when you're talking about in person.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like so much of this nonsense happens in the imaginary.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Zeros and ones world. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, I hate you because of things that you hearted on somebody else.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, my God, you're right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's just domino effect, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I definitely. And I mean, I have. I have my own grandparents that love to use all caps on their Facebook posts. You know what I mean? And so it's real easy to go, oh, they just have a different opinion than me. Then I need to cut them off. And this isn't serving me anymore. You can get really. I feel like you can get really toxic with that kind of behavior when you put up so many boundaries that you can't move.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you said something that gave me the ick. But I think that's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That was the point.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. We have an roi. Ification of human connection these days, Whereas every person who's around me has to be some sort of. For like some sort of net benefit to me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And when someone's quote, unquote, not serving me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

For some reason, that. That objectifies friendship and neighbors and parents in a way. That's not the way people should connect.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And that's what I meant by weaponizing It's. They objectify it in a way of. Well, this. This relationship isn't symbiotic. It's. You need to. This isn't serving me anymore. I feel like that's a word that is. I get the same Mick. Because it's just not. But there are people who won't take a second. They won't hesitate to use that kind of logic. I'm all for if there is a line where, let's say you are in a position with a friendship and that person has Continually just treated you poorly. Turns out they're not a friend. They backstab you, they talk bad about you. Cut them off. No problem. I also, from my own personality and how I see life and I think same way you do, is why the quickest way to lose your peace of mind is to give someone a piece of yours. So you just need to also let them go. They don't have. Because every time you bring them back up, you're putting them on the next page of your book. You're putting them on the next page. Leave them in two chapters back. You don't have to continue. They're not meant to be in the rest of your book. So it is. You can cut them off. Sure. And we can talk about, you know, what are the exact words or phrases. But it's, it all goes in the different context. I just, I feel a certain way when people are saying, I need to cut this person off. Okay, well, how, how often are you with them? Is it because they posted something you didn't like? It's. Then what are you carrying? Why are you picking up with something they never ask you to hold on to?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or have you experienced life untethered to your mom and your dad?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because that comes at a cost.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Even if they vote weird and they've got over the holidays, my mom was explaining to me about how she's figured out this world, like. And I was like, all right. You know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But she also. I'm sure I left. And she's like, he doesn't even know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. She still went, he'll learn.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Of course.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She's still my mom.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And it's her first time to be a mom, too. Exactly. You know, it's the first time living this life.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so you, I, I, you and I both emphasize the grace that you give other people. Right. You know, how personally you take what they're doing is a direct reflection of how much grace that you're giving them.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. But that also means. And we'll get to this later on in the show, that's the teaser for to come back. But that means you and I have to be whole outside of that interaction.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because if I need you to serve me so that I can breathe.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's too much weight for another person to carry.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. If I've made myself dependent on your supply.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a problem.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's a problem. Because that means I'm using you like a Xanax. I mean, that then I'm a parasite.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like a Flintstone. Vitamins.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, it exactly. Awesome. All right, we'll be right back.

[Jefferson Fisher]

All right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. Listen. Right now, Better Help is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week now through March 31st. Listen, you've heard me say this a thousand times. You're worth being well. And I believe that therapy can help. So if you've been on the fence, this is your chance to try therapy for a fraction of the cost. 90% off your first week. Let's be honest, we all spend money on things that we hope will make us feel better, like streaming subscriptions, new clothes, gym memberships, organic groceries. Some of y'all are even essential oil people. But when it comes to actually digging in and getting real about our mental and emotional well being, we hesitate. Please hear me. Your mental and emotional health is just as important as your physical health. And I know actually going to therapy can seem like a huge first step, but it's more accessible than you think. BetterHelp makes therapy more convenient because it's online and you can talk with your therapist when it works for your schedule. Just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. Your well being is worth it, and this offer makes it easier than ever to start. Right now, BetterHelp is offering 90% off your first week of therapy, now through March 31, 2025. This is the biggest discount we've ever offered on this show. 90% off your first week. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get started. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com DeLoney all right, good folks. The modern world exposes us to things that were unheard of until just a few decades ago. And I don't mean lame AI influencers or scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. I'm talking about all the screens in our homes, in our offices, fluorescent lights, EMFs. These things that can affect our mood, our sleep, our anxiety, and more. And that's why I'm so excited to partner with Bon Charge, a world leader in red light therapy and EMF blocking gear. I use Bon Charge products literally all of the time, every single day. And I love them. And here's why I think you'll love them, too. Studies show that red light therapy can help boost your mood, reduce stress, and help with sleep. Red light therapy can also help you recover from aches and pains, transform your skin, and even help with cellulite and stretch marks. My red light therapy panels, the infrared sauna blanket, the EMF mat and more have become a cornerstone of my health and wellness routine. I use them every day. And I want you to check out Bon Charge's other amazing products like blue light glasses, EMF protection products, infrared sauna blankets, and 100% blackout sleep masks and more. Go to BondCharge.com DeLoney and use coupon code DeLoney to save 15%. That's B, N, C H, A, R, G. BondCharge.com DeLoney and Use Coupon Code DeLoney to save 15%. Go check them out. So talk to me about this book, dude. It's awesome.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, man.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's fantastic.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, dude.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I was hoping it was going to be terrible, and it's not. It's really good, man. It's frustratingly good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's funny.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me about it. How did it come about?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It came about. I never thought, John. I never thought I'd ever write a book, ever. I just never, never. It was never on my bingo card. And when I was posting my content stuff on Instagram, I would just have these comments. If you need to write a book, please write a book. I go, well, I guess I need to write a book. So I had to. I googled, how do you write a book? I mean, so I've been through that whole process and the, the team that's publishing it said, I think you really have something to say. And I said, well, okay, we'll figure it out. So what this book does is it distills really my fr. For how I communicate.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And my prayer is that when they, when they read this, they really don't need me anymore. Like, there's, there's the, the, the, the framework. The framework is that when you speak, when you need to say what you need to say, you're going to say with control, you're going to say with confidence. You're going to say to connect. And those three really are your foundation for almost any conversation where you don't. You can start making your own Jefferson Fisher communication videos. And the, the whole premise is that you can change everything in your life by changing the next conversation. I know that it doesn't matter what I said in the last one. I can change everything with simply what I say next.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Say next.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So control, connect and confidence.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You launch into this thing. I don't want to give away too much. You launch into this book with the. When I open the. When I turn the page, I started laughing. I was like, well, there's 95 of my life.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it is. Don't try to win the argument. Don't try to win connection.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Talk to me about that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So the. The whole.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's my whole life.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's funny. With every.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

With my dog, I'm trying to win with my. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Help me, brother.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The whole premise of the book is to never win an argument. We have so many blogs, and there's other books out there. How to win every argument. I just think it's. It's snake oil. I just. It's empty. It's not going to get you anywhere because when you win, you lose a lot more. You lose their respect, you lose the relationship. What did you win? Me. Okay. You and I are in an argument. I send that zinger that's going to hurt and burn in your eyes, and you walk off, and I won. Great. Now what?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's like. It's like the. Like the golf club. Congrats, bro.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. You got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And what did you win? Congrats. You won their contempt. You won the awkward silence. Now as you pass each other down the hall. You still have to probably work with this person. You probably still have to live with this person. Exactly. And all you've won now is to be first up to apologize. That's what you've won. Congrats. Congrats. Yeah, Just enjoy that trophy. And so the whole premise is to never win an argument because you'll start to lose the relationship and what you need to do and stop seeing arguments as something to win and as knots to unravel. When you can start, instead of pulling your way and my way and starting to go, help me see the knot begin to unravel them, meaning having something to learn rather than something to prove. Your life is going to be a whole lot better.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That feels like. It takes an astonishing amount of inner confidence to be able to exit a conversation when you know the person wasn't right. When you know the person. I remember the first. The first time I. I call them many depositions. It was. It was student conduct matters, but their room is surrounded by attorneys. Right. And so I'm not technically getting deposed, but you're getting deposed.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You are.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I remember it was a mutual colleague of ours, Rob, being like, hey, stop talking.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, stop.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it was like, I have to. And it was like, almost like a Be confident.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, just say what you need to say. Be quiet.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I realized my need to keep talking. Was because I wasn't super, super certain about what I was saying.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But when I think about that with my spouse, when I think about that with my kids, I think about that with my kid's teacher. Where do we get that inner confidence?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because I think you have to have that to be able to say, I don't have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I don't have to win this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what. And it's. It's a logical question because. And it's a natural. Everybody's got this of. That's why Rule 2. Rule 2 is say it with confidence.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because what happens is the more words you give, the less you say.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The longer it takes you to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Yes. If you really know a topic, you don't have to explain a whole lot. So confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. Like you've ever been at a meeting. And it's. The person who typically has the most to say has to have the, you know what? I'd like to give my take. And they always have to give something in it. Who knows the least about it?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The least in touch with what's going on in that company or that culture. Whereas the leader is typically very quiet. They know they don't have to say anything. Confident people know that they don't have to say anything if they don't want to. Insecure people have to say everything. They need to name drop. They need to make, you know how smart I am, how many people I know, how many people have been on my show. You know, it's the names that they'll just like to drop, just so that, you know, it's really that insecurity that's talking at the. At the baseline.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I remember this is right when I was starting this new weird world that we're in. And I saw an interview with Jocko.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, nice.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the interviewer was like, all right, so somebody steps to you and your wife on the streets in San Diego. Like, what do you do? And I remember him just quietly, well, I probably just grab her hand and walk across the street and get on that sidewalk. And I remember. I'm paraphrasing it, but he said, like. But what about, like, you gotta defend her honor. And he said with a smile, if it takes me beating up a vagrant on the side of the street, like, to show my wife I honor her, I have failed her in every way. But it was like that. I remember going, oh, that's tough.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Touch. That's that's confident.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then he went on to say, there's a handful of men on earth that can defeat me in. I can, but the flex is right. And I guess.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But. So he knew he had that power, though.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that gives you the power to walk away.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are there situations where I'm trying to think of something outside of safety? When I have to, I've got to dig my heels in. Is that ever a worthy move when.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You need to stand your ground?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but the whole thing of standing your ground, standing up for yourself is asking the question, is this person worth getting out of your chair for?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it's just limiting the number of hills you're gonna die on.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I mean, I grew with my dad going, don't make that your Alamo. Is that gonna be your Alamo?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like, is this really. Is this really. I mean, that would be his thing. I come to him with a problem, he'd go, okay, so. And I go, but you don't understand. This is happening. This is happening. Go. So, I mean. And eventually water me down to where you're at. I don't know why I'm making a bad deal. Yeah. And so it's. It's a mindset of the confidence of knowing I don't have to act, I don't have to move. It's typically the most powerful. People say very little. The. It's the little dog that yips the most.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It just runs and runs and runs. Yeah, man. Okay. Here's something else I took away from this book that was pretty heavy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks for reading.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's outstanding. It's frustratingly good, because I can't write that. Good. I want to talk about. It's kind of a. I'm gonna bridge the gap between that question and the next one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do we try not to win everything in a world that's always competing with us? Because I think the temptation is just. I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do I stay present at a table? And you do this for a living. How do you stay present at a table unhooked from every other emotionally reactive person?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You have to add a lot of silence. So when you can add distance between what somebody has said and how you respond it every time, it gives you a lot more control and especially the perception of control. So let's say you and I are having it out, and all of a sudden you just throw the worst insult ever, and I don't say anything back.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's the worst, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean like, it's like hitting somebody.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And they just look at you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's Will Smith and Chris Rock. He hits him and he just looked at him.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I was like, oh, that's, that's bad.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It looks bad, right? It still looks bad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's. It does, but it will reverberate forever, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And so whenever you, when somebody walks himself out on a plank and you just let them hang there, I mean, that's where you really have your sense of your power move of using silence because they know that they walked off on that ledge. So when you say unplug, it's really the concept of knowing the power of the pause. Knowing that I don't have to say anything. Yeah, you can take your ball and go home. But it's more of the basis of I just don't have to move because I'm confident in what I know and what I have to say. Same thing we were talking about gaslighters. That idea of when you're confident, I see things differently. Now you can disagree with me, that's fine. It's okay to disagree. And I mean, now you're cool. Yeah, now you're cool hand Luke. Otherwise when you're having to go, no, no, no, no, that's not true. And you're bouncing every which way, you're getting heightened. You're yelling. Now you're saying, I'm grasping for control. One with the pause says, no, I'm. I'm in control. Much, much different feeling, much different vibe.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I guess the next evolution of that question is talk to me about defensiveness.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I guess what that communicates.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Funny thing about community of defensiveness is we, it becomes this cycle. So you take something somebody says a certain way, you don't like it, so you get defensive. You say something defensive, well, in turn the other person gets defensive. And now you're convinced you're under attack. And so like it becomes this loop, what I call a self fulfilling prophecy that you say, I thought you were mad at me kind of thing. You convince yourself that you were mad at somebody. When you get defensive, it's like locking the door in your room and then being mad at somebody that they can't come in. Like they should understand me. You still expect them to cater to your needs when you've totally blocked out all of theirs. And so it just, it creates this wall that they should know. They should know how I feel. They should know that would upset me. But you care nothing about what's happening to the other person. Now, there's a. You can do certain things and techniques to prevent defensiveness from the other person. It's very hard to prevent defensiveness in yourself. Aside from just dropping it, not taking things so personally, it's extremely hard. But most of the time, the yell that somebody's given you is truly just a bid for connection because they're tight, they're tension, they're wanting you to hear. Most of the time, the yell is them wanting to feel like they are connected in some way. Now, it depends what they're yelling.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right, right, right, right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. That could be very different. But the whole idea of defensiveness is that it is probably the number one conversation killer. If I were to tell you, you say something to me and I go, I can tell I'm getting defensive at that. Now, when you hear that, does that make you sound like, I know what I'm. I'm doing? Like, I'm controlling myself or I'm not?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

When you say I'm getting defensive about that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. If I say I can tell I'm getting defensive about that, that makes me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Feel like you're weak.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

When you say that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But also because I want to be like, when you say that, like, I'm getting defensive about that. I. I feel like. Like, if that's the goal here, it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Was because you're a bully.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's why I come at you. But also is. I keep going back to fighting analogies, but that's you creating distance from us. I can't hit you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, you got it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I can't. I. I'll swing again. And that's you saying, like, I. I feel my body doing X, Y, and Z. And so I'm getting out of striking distance. And as a guy that's trying to fire you up, that annoys me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a great metaphor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had. I once had a trial where the. We were probably halfway through, and this guy on the other side was such a fireball. He just gets so heated about everything. And halfway through, in a break, he goes, man, I really don't like you. I said, oh, that's okay. You know? He goes, no, no. I mean, I like you. I mean, you're great. He goes, the thing is, he goes, you don't give me an enemy. He goes, I can't get mad at you. He's like, I can't. He goes, usually I try and make an opponent, so I've become like, before trial. Of course, personally, we're fine, but when it Comes to courtroom.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. You put the gloves on and get.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. It's like, I'm the opponent. And so he wants to feel justified in saying mean things. And this other side. And they're the. They're the enemy. But I never gave him that because I didn't deserve it. I hadn't done anything rude. I was always continuing to be kind. And this just water off a duck's back kind of thing. And that's a main key, is most people are just looking for an enemy when it comes to conversation. They're wanting to find a way to be mad at you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I would say the next derivative then is actually. I don't know if they're looking for an enemy as much as they're looking to feel justified being in of soup of their own feelings.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the way they can feel justified in feeling miserable is if you're. If it's your fault.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Perfect. You got it. That's it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's it. They. They want to. They feel a certain way, so they need to dump it on somebody. And it just. You happen to be the living thing in the room. All right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So that. That distills down. Can I tell you what the biggest thing left with this book?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And disagree with me if you're like, that's not really what I meant. This may be one of the top three or four countercultural books I've ever read.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Here's what I mean about that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't know that I've read a book in the last 10 years. Maybe Arthur Brooks, that I closed the book and thought, jefferson sees more capability in me than I do.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if I step back and look at the cloud hanging over our culture, it is. I've got fill in the blank diagnostic. I've got fill in the blank childhood trauma. I got fill in the blank X, Y, or Z malady. And culture has convinced us over the last 25 years. You're irrevocably broken. Just go to the margin. We'll pat you on the head and we'll take care of it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because you can't. And as I was going through this, I. I would say, like, don't win the argument. I'm like, all right, man. But, like, that means I have to just sit here and be cool.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I know me well enough to know that means I gotta still go see a counselor. And that guy. That means I gotta get with my wife once a week and plan the week out so that I give her some peace so that I can have some peace. That means that I gotta exercise most of the time. Otherwise I'm just kind of a ball of.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it. I kept hearing this. You can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, you can.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or don't get defensive or get up and walk away, or just don't answer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Nobody in culture is saying that they're telling you how to fight back.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How to slip the punch and swing. And so a. A statement I've been making over and over recently is. And it's just me kind of a refrain that I'm repeating to myself is, I'm not solving for net worth. I'm not solving for the greatest sex amount. I'm solving for peace.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

In my house and for me and my family, it means I'm not going to buddy money. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If. If you can't take my house from me, then I'm gonna be right. If you can't take my car from me, I'm at peace.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm gonna solve for having hard conversation. My wife way up upstream so it doesn't turn into a nightmare. But nobody's telling us we can do that. And that's this whole stinking book is you looking and be like, no, you can. Yeah, you can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's awesome.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you sense the. The. All right, let me ask you this. You work in the messy ugliness of people's lives on a day to day basis.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You wouldn't have a job if injustices didn't happen to other people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What gives you the belief in everybody? No, you can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Because I've seen it. I've seen it. And that's a wonderful takeaway that. It's a really just blessing to hear that from you, John. Really. I've seen it. And my experience in the courtroom, depositions, cross examination, just the everyday trenches of conflict. I have seen people that could not go into a room without crying, shaking uncontrollably. I have seen what I've been able to do. Once I spend time with them and teach them how to communicate, by the time that they're on the deposit, when they're on the stand in the courtroom, you would never even known it. And it's like, I know it. I know that they can because I've seen the transition by just a few phrases of letting their breath be the first word.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's a great story. I want to give it away. That. That woman. That's a great story.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's just little bitty things like that where I've Been able to see them transform into everything about them simply by what they say next and by putting them in a position to where, rather than trying to control other people, the magic happens when all they need to do is control themselves and magical things happen. And I. It's a message that I don't believe that culture is really talking about. I never really thought about that until you just said that. I guess it is very counter culture. Very counterintuitive.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, you do a good job here of talking about, like, when your body goes to fight or flight, you're not. You.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Your body protects you from thinking through your next steps. It just wants you to react.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so we have an entire culture that's electric with reaction.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, they prefer it. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so if somebody like Jefferson says, no, no, I think you can. And I can lead with my breath, if I can exhale, if I can do the work, to be confident when I sit down at a table, not have, gosh, dude. The most common thing I ask on my show is, does that make sense? Right after I give this explanation, here's what you need to do next. Yeah, cool, cool, cool. Like, are we still friends? Right. And, like, just being able to say, hey, trust. Trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, maybe don't say anything. Right. That. That allows me to not live in a world of reactivity. And then maybe I can be the only thinking mind in, in at my dinner table or with my family. And when that happens, you can smile.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Granddad can say whatever, and you can be like, all right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I mean, it's been good to see you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Exactly. Hey, we're gonna stay one night this Thanksgiving. We're gonna stay one night.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And we'll have fun. We'll talk politics and talk how. Pfizer. We'll do that. And then you'll have a great one, man. You know what I mean? Then we laugh all the way home.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Or that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. I'm just going to outsource my. To everybody.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's hard.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, it is. So I guess.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But that's a challenge.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, thank you for believing in people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I, I, I hope people read this and they exhale and say, okay. When I can't see belief in myself. I got a toolkit now that my dad didn't have, that my granddad didn't have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That my mom didn't have. But there's a guy who believes in.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Me, and I was able only to get it because there are people who believe in me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's how it goes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, when we get come back, we will do some rapid fire straight from social. Nice. Awesome. All right, it's sleep awareness month. So now is a good time to shout out my friends at Helix and remind you that sleep is foundational to every single part of your overall well being. And all of us know the critical importance of a good night's sleep. And we all know how great it is to have a safe, cool, dark place to sleep and an amazing comfortable mattress. My Helix mattress has helped me to get to sleep faster and to sleep more deeply. So I wake up super refreshed. And I love Helix so much that I got a Helix mattress for each of my kids, my sister, and even the revolving door of guests who come to stay with me all sleep on a Helix. And here's why Helix is great. They offer a mattress for every person's different sleep style. If you run hot at night, if you got concerns with your spine, if you sleep on your back, on your side, your stomach, however you sleep, Helix has a mattress for you. Plus Helix offers a hundred night trial. And every Helix mattress comes with a 10 or 15 year warranty. So there's really no risk. Listen, during sleep awareness month, let's prioritize real sleep. Get online and take the Helix sleep quiz just like I did, and you'll find the perfect mattress for yourself in about two minutes or less. Go to helixsleep.comdelon today for 25 off site wide. That's 25 off everything sitewide at Helix. H E L I x helix sleep.com Deloney with Helix better sleep starts right now. I reached out to people on social media. My favorite place to hang out. I'm not great at it. I'm not great at it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You do fine.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I do fine, but you do great.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What's wrong with you?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I appreciate it. Good. I'm working on it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You really do. I've been watching your stories. I always heart your stuff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I gotta tell you, occasionally I'll be like in my car. I'll be getting out and be like, I got some knocking car. I'm not doing that in the car.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Why not?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's like coming into your house and no way, dude.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I got plenty of room.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I love. I'm gonna start doing that. I'm gonna start doing it in the third row.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's do it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Awesome. All right, here's the social questions. Rapid fire. You ready?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm ready.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I posted a picture of us and Said, what questions do you want me to ask?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Jefferson and I have no idea what we're asking.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, no, this is live. I love it. All right, what are your go to open ended questions to help people open up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

This is a good one that I like. I got this one from Chris Foss and Lewis Howells. I think Lewis got it from Voss, who's the mastermind, who's a fantastic guy and friend is opening with what's the chance. Yeah, what's the chance we can talk about X, Y and Z? What's the chance you'd be willing to go with me to do what here? That's a wonderful open ended question for people. Curious. Open ended questions are questions that don't assume the answer. Like where did you go yesterday? You can go anywhere. A close ended question is did you go to the store yesterday? So close in the question assumes what the answer is. If you only have a yes or a no response, it's a close ended. You want to open it up to get them talking. You can also begin your stuff with what, what or how, but don't begin it with why.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I would add on to that, unless you're doing a murder investigation, don't ask, don't.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, for all you out there, don't.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, for all you not investigating murder, don't try to catch people in lies. Life's too short. Your kids, your spouse, like, you know what I mean? There's something about where, where were you last night? If, you know, you're at the store, you know, lead with.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, if, if people feel like they're walking into a trap and in fact then later you spring the trap. You just lost trust forever. Yeah, you've all, that's all you've done. It's not like you've proven your point. You just.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, okay. All right. Ooh, this one's kind of close to home, kind of cool. I'm a 1L. I'm a first year law student who is doesn't like conflict, public speaking and gets flustered easily. What are some tips?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, well, if you're in law school, I would still. I'm sure your law school has advocacy. First of all, this is very transactional like answer. But your school, your school probably has advocacy teams. I highly encourage those. They're a great way to learn and do any of that. If you get flustered, understand that that's probably just a sense of your nervous system. You need to be much more available to adding your breath. Breath is what's going to control those nerves and Also understand if you just don't want to be somebody in the courtroom, you don't have to be. There's tons of training, actual attorneys that never see the light of day of a courtroom and do wonderful things in the world.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can have a good life and not get on stage.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure you can. I mean, I know lots of attorneys that even going to a hearing would terrify them. So it just takes all their time. They got. They got it. Go with what's natural.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do you recover when you say that thing and the conversation goes bad.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, how do you recover? Immediately say, I should not have said that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Put it out there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Immediately. Take ownership of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like that. If you can say, I shouldn't have said that, or immediately, that was unfair. Or that was on. That was unhelpful. Like, you need to say what they're thinking. You have to go ahead and say what they're already accusing you of. That wasn't nice. That was unfair. That wasn't helpful.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Or that hurt almost even what they're feeling.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Huh. Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's. That's a. You have to get that out front, apologize, depending on what you said, and get back on it. But the longer you delay, like, if you withhold that apology, there's lots of people where, you know, all they have to do is apologize, and there's mom, they'll hold it. It. It only makes things worse.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do you politely disagree with someone who isn't mature and who has narcissistic tendencies?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, let's just put it as how do you disagree with really anybody? I mean, you can disagree with a narcissist versus it's the same. Same thing. One is, like we talked about. I see things differently. Another is I lean differently or I lean the opposite. I tend to lean the opposite. Or I take another approach. I love to have. I take another approach.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That one feels right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I like that one a lot. Did you say I take another approach, period? I don't have to justify it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. I don't have to explain it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I don't have to explain it at all. So if it's. I tend to lean the opposite. So I see things differently. I take another approach or I tend to lean the opposite. The reason why I tend to lean the opposite is a little bit different because I'm giving them a history of what I typically do. I tend to. I tend to lean the opposite. That means I'm not just basing what you said right now. I'm just giving you what I'm applying right now is what I apply to everything. So that way they don't feel nearly as called out. Say, this is just how my. This is how I typically handle things, but I tend to take another approach or I take a different approach. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This is kind of a. An aside here. Y'all can edit this how you want. This is an important question that just came to mind.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ready?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is your ability. And I need to mine myself to ask. My ability is your ability to detach and be still. Come from a place of. I could eviscerate you if I needed to. Could you play dirty lawyer if you needed to? You.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Because I. I wonder. I'm going back to that Ja Jocko question. It's not brave if he's not one of the strongest men on earth and has to run across the street. Yeah, right, Right. It's brave when I could. And I'm gonna go across the street here. So as part of this knowing I can really hurt my spouse and I'm not going to. I'm going to choose.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That feels like. I don't know, there's something about it that makes it more powerful. Like, you need to mine yourself and know how you can hurt people. So that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, I. I know that if I had to play what as you term dirty lawyer.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Mean lawyer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, mean lawyer. Like, I could. I could say. Really, I could say things. I could say things that would, like, hurt your childhood.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know, but I. I have also had the wisdom poured into me from my family, my dad, my mom, and my walk of knowing. That's a very lonely, empty road.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so I. The power of detachment is a true power when you can see conversations happening and kind of step outside yourself, like you're watching them in a movie theater where you're just eating popcorn and seeing how the other person's reacting. You get to see yourself.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. But it's not a detachment from cowardice.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No. It's not a detachment from strength. Yeah, you got it. It's not a detachment from cowardice or from the conversation. It's a detachment of reactivity needing to win. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, a couple more. How do you politely disagree? Oh, we already did that one. All right, a couple more advice on respectfully shutting down rude or manipul, manipulative comments from elderly parents.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, from elderly. Okay. So if anytime somebody's saying something that you need to shut down, you can't walk on. Biggest thing is you cannot walk on eggshells and be like, let's not say that, please. You know, if you're trying to. Those kind of people will feed off of that. They'll try to lean to that anymore or even more. Instead, you need to stand exactly where you are. Instead of saying, beginning your words with you, like, you can't talk to me that way. I don't accept that tone. You can't yell at me. I don't respond to that volume.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So whenever you can, instead of beginning it with you begin with I. Magical things can happen. You can figure out how to do that with almost every single phrase. Instead of beginning with you beginning with I. Because you can't control what they're saying. You can control their comment, but you can control yourself beginning with I. And then you can quickly lay a boundary on that. I don't. I don't respond to those kind of comments.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That almost feels like a. Again, like a, Like a way to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's a stiff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm just taking a step back, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It is a very polite stiff arm in a. In a way of. You don't understand where you're going with this. I don't respond to those kind of comments. And if you keep saying them, this is the end of the conversation.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I think, respectfully shutting down. Rude, manipulative comments from parents may come with consequences. May come with the. The holidays over. Right. Or may come with, we're not going to go out to dinner tonight, we're just going to go eat back at the hotel.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, right. For sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I think people want to be able to. What's a magic way to say this? So there's no consequence.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That doesn't exist.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It doesn't exist. No. Because you never know what they're.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I can't control what they're going to be.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, you never know what they're going to say or what the comment is or it. What the context is. Maybe it's probably something related to when you were a child that's triggering to you and they didn't have. Maybe they didn't intend to it. I mean, when you can ask the question, did you intend to upset me with that? Did you mean for that to upset me? Like when you can ask the question back instead of a response, turn them into a question. So instead of like, oh, well, that hurt. That was rude. Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to hurt me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It sounds like someone shot you and he just bounced off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. It's so, like, it's just so dismissive in a powerful way. But.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm gonna say this real quick. This. I. On my way here, when I left San Diego, the way the airport's structured is I just wasn't paying attention. But they have two separate wings to where I. I went all the way through security in one. I was like, where's my gate? And I keep walking, and I walk out of that entire terminal, and I have to go realize I. I have to go through security and another part of it, and I turned around and there was one of the TSA ladies. And I said, oh, my gosh. I think I went through that. I gotta go through this all again. And she said, well, you should have been looking at the signs. We had lots of signs. I said, well, yeah, I guess I should have seen the signs. I just didn't. I didn't see them. She goes, no, it's your fault, Cher. It's your fault. Dead serious. This is what she said to me yesterday. And I just stopped and I said, did you feel better saying that? And all of a sudden, she got red. She goes, I'm sorry, sir. You're right. I. I'm. I'm sorry. I was frustrated. Yes, sir. Like, it was just a totally different. It's like that. You can't let it. Can't let it penetrate. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But there is something important sometimes to occasionally turn and just hold the mirror up and be like, is that what we're going for?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's what you got it. And that's the whole point of asking those questions. Are you become the.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The mirror.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you can. You can. If it's really bad, you can ask them to repeat it, and then. Then they have to have. Be their own echo.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But when you can say, did you. Did you mean for that to be. And. But also it. I would say it also clarifies things.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So, like, in a text message, like, between me and my wife, if it's. Did you mean for that to be short? That saves a lot of arguments.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

A lot of assumptions.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. Or the. The old Brene Brown quote. The story I'm choosing to make up is. Yeah, you're mad. Yeah. No, I'm not mad. I'm running the bathroom and I just needed to hit sand.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Or should I read into that?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so before we go, I've got one thing here that I just vehemently disagree with, and.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, this is a glaring error.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, the glaring error.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Perfect.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. In the words of Jefferson Fisher, I see things differently here. So you write this great book. You write on page four. If you're inclined to believe that I learned my communication skills in law school. Don't. Law school teaches you how to apply the law principles of contracts, but you won't hear a lesson on how to diffuse a heated argument. Law school teaches you how to read the law, not how to read people. I had to learn that part myself.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I see that differently. I think this is the part where you tell America in the world that I taught you most of this stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Everything I know came from. I appreciate that, Dr. John Deloney.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I. Gosh, the fully. I just needed that. I needed that. I, I. It was the feeling got stuck on page four.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you couldn't get past that. I couldn't. Every page I would read, I would just flip back. I'd read 10 pages, flip back, and be like, I think I taught him everything in this book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

For anybody listening, that's. That's how we first met.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So for anybody listening, I don't know if I said this the last time you're on the show. You were one of those students that came in, and all of our colleagues were like, hey, we got to be real nice to this guy because we're probably working for him someday. Like, pretty sure either you or your wife, like, we're gonna be working for them, so we gotta be super cool, dude. Thank you for coming. Hang out. Nothing in the world makes me happier than your success here. It was awesome. And for the people that you help.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, dude.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And on behalf of, like, forget the Our. Our. We've known each other for a long time. And forget friendship and all that. As just a dad of two little kids, you give me a lot of language in this book that I can impart to them so that they will always feel like dad thinks I can. And so thank you for believing in me by writing this book. Thank you for believing in millions of people who will read this book. And thank you for changing the cultural conversation about. You can't, too. I think you can. It's a blessing, brother.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That means the world to me, man.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Thanks, dude.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Appreciate.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Catch you later, dude.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, here's the truth. There's no such thing as mental health separate from physical health, separate from emotional health, separate from relational health, and on and on. Listen, there's just health. It all works together and everything's connected. It's almost impossible to be whole in one area and completely struggling in another. So if you're ready to make positive physical changes, that can help restore some entirety to your whole self. Check out TrainWell. TrainWell offers tailored workouts with step by step guidance from real people. That means it's not just an app and it's not just a personal trainer. It's the best of both worlds. To get started, you just need to answer a few questions about your fitness journey. Hop on a chat with an expert trainer to discuss your goals and make a personalized plan. And then it's time for you to get to work. As you complete workouts, your trainer will keep tweaking them to help you get better. And I love the workouts and my wife loves them and we both love how they adapt to our travel schedules. Train Wheel takes away our excuses and makes working out easy. And they can do it for you too. If you're ready to start taking control of your physical health, take the quiz to find your Perfect [e-mail] Deloney today. And right now, they still have a special offer just for my audience. 69amonth. When you lock in your plan, that's almost 50% off their regular monthly rate plus 14 days of free training. Go to trainwell.net DeLoney that's trainwell.net DeLoney all right, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my great friend Jefferson Fisher. And I think it's important to note that he did admit in front of all of you all that he learned everything from me when I was the administrator for one year during his grad school experience. He was kind of a floundering student, didn't really know where he wanted to go or what direction he was going to have. And then he met me and then he learned everything he knows. And so now he's pretty famous. And so I'm glad that he finally admitted all that on the not really. I think I said this in the interview. He was one of those students that all of us on the faculty or all of us that were administrators, we all were like, like, yeah, we should be nice to him because we're all going to work for him someday. Yeah, it's amazing conversation. We're going to link to everything with the book. Please go pick this book up. It truly is exceptional. It's the Atomic Habits for Communication. And it breaks it down. It makes it very simple to understand. It gives you a lot of clear, actionable steps on how to make your life better. Literally how to make your life better. We'll also link to Jefferson's Instagram pages for the two or three of you who aren't already following him and all the other good stuff we talked about, we'll link in the show notes. Listen, take control of your next conversation. Be clear, be concise. Use conversation as a tool to connect with people, not as a way to try to win something. And, man, you will talk. You'll just. Your life will get more peaceful. Thank you all so much for being with us. Love you guys. See y'all soon. Bye.