Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler) | The Dr. John Delony Show

Release Date: December 23, 2024

In the heartfelt episode titled "Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)" of The Dr. John Delony Show, hosted by the Ramsey Network, Dr. John Delony engages in a profound conversation with David Kessler, a world-renowned grief expert. This episode delves deep into the multifaceted nature of grief, exploring its complexities, the importance of witnessing, and the paths to healing. The discussion is both enriching and empathetic, offering listeners valuable insights into navigating their grief journeys.

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1. Grief Demands a Witness

The conversation opens with a powerful assertion from David Kessler:

David Kessler [00:22]: "Grief demands a witness."

This statement sets the tone for the episode, emphasizing that acknowledging and bearing witness to one's grief is essential for healing. Both hosts agree on the universality of grief, highlighting its impact on everyone regardless of circumstances.

2. Online vs. In-Person Grief Support

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the effectiveness of online grief communities compared to traditional in-person support groups.

David Kessler [04:11]: "We find our healing in each other's stories."

Kessler shares his experience managing global online grief communities, initially skeptical about the emotional depth achievable online. However, he was proven wrong when he observed how digital interactions allowed participants to express themselves authentically, even anonymously, fostering a sense of connection and mutual healing.

3. Storytelling and Healing

The hosts delve into the therapeutic power of storytelling in grief:

David Kessler [12:14]: "We are story-making creatures."

By sharing personal narratives, individuals can process their emotions and reconstruct their identities post-loss. Kessler emphasizes that while we cannot control traumatic events, we can control the stories we build around them, choosing narratives that either imprison us or set us free.

4. Rituals and Ceremonies

The importance of rituals and ceremonies in the grieving process is another critical topic. Delony shares poignant anecdotes illustrating how rituals help individuals say goodbye and express love, even in unconventional ways.

Dr. John Delony [25:37]: "When we have a birthday party, we get together and happy birthday is another way we say, I love you. And now that grandpa's died or the dog died, we gather again at the end to say I love you."

These rituals provide structure and meaning, facilitating the transition from loss to healing.

5. Acceptance and Meaning-Making

A significant emphasis is placed on acceptance and finding meaning after loss. Kessler challenges the traditional linear models of grief, advocating for a more nuanced understanding.

David Kessler [15:25]: "If I truly accepted this death, one thing I would change would be okay. If I truly accepted this death, I would stop revolving it in my mind."

He introduces the concept that acceptance isn't a single event but a continuous process of reevaluating and restructuring one's life narrative.

6. Teaching Children About Loss

Addressing grief literacy among children, the discussion underscores the necessity of teaching kids about loss from an early age.

David Kessler [22:00]: "Your child is 100%, like the stats are in 100% is going to go through loss this lifetime."

Both hosts agree that honest and compassionate conversations about loss equip children to handle future grief more resiliently.

7. Guilt, Forgiveness, and Self-Compassion

Exploring the darker facets of grief, the conversation touches upon guilt and the journey toward forgiveness.

David Kessler [38:04]: "Forgiveness starts with a 30-day practice."

Delony and Kessler discuss how individuals often grapple with self-blame and the importance of releasing guilt to move forward. They advocate for practical exercises that encourage self-forgiveness and emotional release.

8. Personal Experiences with Grief

Both hosts share deeply personal stories, illustrating the universal yet unique nature of grief. Delony recounts the loss of his sons and the subsequent emotional turmoil, emphasizing that:

Dr. John Delony [28:33]: "If the love is real, the grief is real. There is no hierarchy. And loss. Let that go."

These narratives highlight that grief does not follow a hierarchy; every loss is valid and deserving of attention and respect.

9. Overcoming the Identity of a Grief Expert

Kessler reflects on his own journey of overcoming the label of a "grief expert" to connect more authentically with those he helps.

David Kessler [32:21]: "We don't want to know the grief expert. We want to sit down and have a beer with our buddy that just happens to know a lot about loss."

This vulnerability fosters deeper connections and underscores the importance of relatability in the healing process.

10. Moving Forward: Living Fully While Grieving

The episode concludes with a discussion on balancing grief with life, emphasizing that:

Dr. John Delony [44:39]: "I want to grieve fully and live fully."

Kessler and Delony advocate for embracing both the pain of loss and the joy of living, suggesting that true healing comes from honoring one's grief while continuing to engage with life.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• David Kessler [00:22]: "Grief demands a witness."
• David Kessler [12:14]: "We are story-making creatures."
• Dr. John Delony [25:37]: "When we have a birthday party... another way we say, I love you."
• David Kessler [15:25]: "If I truly accepted this death..."
• David Kessler [22:00]: "Your child is 100%... going to go through loss this lifetime."
• David Kessler [38:04]: "Forgiveness starts with a 30-day practice."
• Dr. John Delony [28:33]: "If the love is real, the grief is real. There is no hierarchy."
• David Kessler [32:21]: "We don't want to know the grief expert..."
• Dr. John Delony [44:39]: "I want to grieve fully and live fully."

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Conclusion

"Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)" offers a compassionate exploration of grief, emphasizing the necessity of witnessing one's sorrow, the power of storytelling, and the importance of rituals and forgiveness. David Kessler's insights, combined with Dr. John Delony's personal experiences, provide listeners with a roadmap to navigate the tumultuous waters of grief. This episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to understand and heal from loss, underscoring that while grief is universal, each journey is uniquely personal.

For more resources and to explore David Kessler's work, listeners are encouraged to visit his official website and access his workbook, "Finding Meaning", which provides practical exercises for working through grief.

Transcript

[A]

There is no timeline in grief. If you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago. I'm sitting there witnessing your four years in aren't getting out of the house or you're not getting back in relationships. I'm going to be a little tougher. Coach.

[B]

There you go. Yeah. What's up? What's going on? This is Josh with the Dr. John DeLoney Show. I'm so glad you're with us. We're talking about your emotional mental health, your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. I'm going to sit here and I'm going to sit with you and we're going to figure out what's the next right move. On today's episode, we have a second part of one of my favorite conversations I've ever had with one of my heroes, the great David Kessler. David Kessler is a world renowned expert on grief. And nobody likes to talk about grief, but grief impacts every single person living and breathing right now, including you and including me. And we have to grieve the big things, the small things. And we have a grief illiterate world, as he says. And so in this part two, we're talking about grief, demanding a witness. Something that I've been saying forever and ever. And I got the line from him and so much more. So I've got his book here, by the way, the six Stage of Grief workbook for anyone who's struggling. And we'll link to it in the show notes. So check out the second part of my conversation with the great David Kessler right here. The most powerful line you've given me is, grief demands a witness.

[A]

Grief demands a witness.

[B]

Every civilization, every faith community in all of human history have had a moment where people sit down and say, tell me your story. And so often, like, I lost my husband, lost my. Stop loss. What was his name? Like, we're going to. We're going to tell the story. I want, I want to. There's something so powerful. Let me ask you this. You. You manage these amazing global online grief communities. I have made the case, and tell me if I'm wrong, that in many ways, storytelling, being with, if you will, digitally, is like Twinkies. It's calories, but it's not rich food. Is there a. Have you noticed a difference between in person and online?

[A]

I started there.

[B]

Okay. I mean, listen, I love being wrong, so tell me if I'm wrong.

[A]

When the pandemic hit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People were like, you got to move online. And I was like, I don't know that emotions translate. And one of my buddies said, have you ever seen a movie?

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And I'm like, oh, all right. Yeah. Now, here's the thing. On a zoom call, I see your face just like this. I mean, I wish I could tell you. I mean, look, if you came in and you smelled bad, I wouldn't know it on a zoom. But every other thing, I get every little expression. And here's the thing, you know, people go. When they hear there's a grief group, they go, oh, I don't want to be online with six people. That's. I'm like, no, no, there's hundreds. There's hundreds. And the shocking thing about it is there's some people who are like, hey, I got a question. I went, you've asked a question yesterday. Like, let's have. You know. But there's other people who are in the back have never turned their zoom on. They've never, you know, you can be anonymous or you can be in the front row. And one of the things that's shocking about it is I do topics, we do check ins, and I do one on ones. And in the one on ones, it's me and that person, and hundreds of people are watching it. They don't get seen in that moment. We find each other in each other's stories.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And we find our healing in each other's stories. I mean, I get tons of emails of people who go, oh, my gosh, that person asked the question I didn't even know was the question I had. That was the one I needed for my healing. Like, I would have never even thought to ask that. And they did. And you went there and you healed them. And I go, I didn't heal them. They healed them. And you found your healing in them and then in yourself. So I think it does work.

[B]

It does work.

[A]

It does work.

[B]

Thank you for changing my mind on that.

[A]

I am never going to, like, be face to face with people in Australia, New Zealand, in the UK and, you know, all over the US and it's like such. And boy, let me tell you, when there's like, sometimes I'll do these free online events. We have 40,000 people.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

You talk about how universal grief is that, like, I speak the same language. Wait, you're in rural Alaska. You haven't seen another person in weeks, and yet you hurt, too. We're connected. You hurt, too.

[B]

Yeah, I guess. Man, listening to you talk about that makes me think I am in charge of food distribution. After a huge Traumatic weather event. And I hold back the food because it's not, you know, Michelin star quality. People are hungry. Let's get food. Let's get food.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And let's not negotiate calories right now.

[A]

Look, I tell people there's an amazing grief group down the block at your church. You don't need us.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I'll tell you, grief is overwhelming and exhausting that it's like, people are like, oh, no, I need the church group. I need your group, and I need my counselor and I need my clergy, like. And it's still barely enough to hold me together.

[B]

You know, the answer should be yes. Yeah. Especially in our world. We have. We're so lonely. Right? And we don't have regular people to regular groups of people in our lives just as a way of being to help.

[A]

And people in those groups. The first question I ask you. Come on. You start to talk, and I go, how long has your loved one been dead? And I tell the group, and here's why I'm asking. There is no timeline in grief. But if you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago. I'm sitting there witnessing.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Being there, sitting with you in compassion. Yeah. You're four years in and you aren't getting out of the house, or you're not getting back in relationships, or you're not living life. I'm. I'm going to be a little tougher, Coach.

[B]

There you go. Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, there's different moments. There's. There's not one size fits all.

[B]

Yeah. I often tell folks who just experienced loss, you probably will not remember this conversation. I want you to remember you exhaled once. Right. And I want you to remember that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're not gonna remember the exact. In fact, they used to tell us, bring a. Bring a brochure or something because they. No one's gonna remember. They can. That's okay. What do you tell the person who is sitting. Not so much in the lost moment yet, but it's not fair moment.

[A]

Luckily, I had so many teachers to draw on. You know, I'm a reserve specialist with my local police department. I ran a group for police officers whose children died by suicide with the officer's gun. Wait, wait. You're protecting our world. You're showing up in a dangerous world and your child died. I. Oh, that's. That doesn't make cosmic sense to me. Right.

[B]

It's extra not right.

[A]

It's extra not right. You know, there's so many situations like that that I would sit with people. I remember there was a couple that came to a retreat and I think I even wrote about them in there. Whose two year old daughter went out with grandma in New York and a. They're sitting on a bench and a random brick falls.

[B]

No, man.

[A]

And kills the child. I'm sorry, what?

[B]

What?

[A]

What? Like a random brick. And here's the thing about this. I worked with her on her anger. And I remember she kept saying, I can't say it, I can't say it. And we're in a room with hundreds of people and I said, what if you just said it? What if we understood it and you said it? And she goes, I hate old people. And I go, okay, good. Let's release the shame of that. And there were some people who were a little older in the room, and I said, I wonder, could you, like, really scream this out or hit the pillow or whatever? Could you release this anger? And she goes, I can't. And I said, we're gonna do it with you. And I had the room going, we hate old people. And like, to hear it, it would have sounded crazy, Right, Right. And then she fell down in tears as she released it. And then the truth was spoken. You don't really hate old people. You hate that we live in a world that this person got 80 years and says they're not that happy. And your daughter got two years. You're not angry at old people. You're angry at the unfairness of the world. So, yeah, the grief expert. Son dies, someone, and she's in the faith community. A brick falls, a police officer. This is our world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, one of the things when we look at the psychological world, personalization does not help us. Death is the most personal thing that happens when you're getting a divorce feels pretty personal. And then you have to go, the betrayal, the divorce, it actually isn't about me. It's happening to me, but it's not about me. I don't believe there is a God that looked down and went at David Kessler. Gonna get him. I'm gonna. Ooh. This is. That's not the God that I believe in.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I don't think there was a personal nature to it. And it's the most personal, brutal thing that's happened to me. And I don't think that that Brick chose that girl. I don't think those. I think this is a life where loss happens, tragedy happens, period. That hurricane is not picking the houses, right?

[B]

It is.

[A]

It just is. It just is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So those are like Those are nuances to get to. I would never get to these nuances with someone newly.

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

But we're talking nuances.

[B]

Yeah. And we're also, I think the meta here for me is we are story making creatures.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And on the back end of something so horrific, once I'm able to breathe, I get to pick the story that I write next.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And one of those stories will imprison me forever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And one of those stories will set me free.

[A]

And you may have been victimized, but it does not have to be a final victim story. Right.

[B]

And in fact, power is. I'm not letting you victimize me anymore.

[A]

Correct. And I'm not going to victimize myself by living that story after the traumatic event has happened.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I always say, bad enough this stuff happened once. Like, who wants to relive it every day?

[B]

Yes. Which means there's a. I hate to use this word because it's unpopular. There's a choice.

[A]

Right. And that's why, you know, we were talking about this book, this workbook is because I always say to people, like, someone goes, I was told I have to talk to you and do my grief work. What's grief work? And I'm like, I'm going to take the tool and techniques that I've been teaching coaches and therapists for years and put them in a workbook. Like, we're sitting at your kitchen table and I'm walking you through some things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now, as you know, you know, my teacher was Kubler Ross with the five stages. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I hear her always telling me, tell them they're not linear. There's no model. There's not linear. We like, said that till, you know, we're just blue in the face.

[B]

I know, but that's just the only way that new scientists, we want to.

[A]

Reduce our right, you know, and look.

[B]

You know, crazy, you know, shut up.

[A]

There was a big study at Yale that said, you know, it's, it's not denial, it's disbelief.

[B]

Just shut up.

[A]

And I'm like, shut up. I'm like, okay, tomatoes, tomatoes.

[B]

You know who, you know who does those studies? And this is me being critical. It's people who don't regularly sit with hurting people because, you know, who doesn't care to parse somebody who just lost their kid or somebody whose marriage just blew up. They don't. Was it disbelief? Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And, you know, can we just sit with hurting people?

[A]

Right, right. And it really is, many times it's the academic world I got to tell you, people go, which is the right grief model for. I'm like, no one in grief ever says to me, which model? Which model? I mean, look, people sit with me and they go, I heard of you. You were taught by Kubler Ross. I love the stages. I hate the stages. They're wrong. I'm like, so tell me, like, it's.

[B]

Good to meet you. Tell me what your name is.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not, Like, we're not even going to. And Kubler Ross was that way. On our book, like, page one, we said, please let go of that. But you know, to me, when I wrote about meaning, the first reaction from people when they hear meaning is, there's no meaning in a horrible divorce. Betrayal, death, murder. Of course not. Meanings in us. It's what we do after.

[B]

Next.

[A]

Yeah, it's what we do after. I find the biggest thing I wrestled with was acceptance. We think there's one big acceptance. There's a million of them. And I just want to see if I can find this for you here, just to take in this. Because people go, I know. I'm trying to accept it. And they're just sort of like. They're just wrestling with finding a big acceptance. I wanted to break this down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me just give you a few of these. If I truly accepted this death. And that could mean the death of the marriage, the death of betrayal, my job, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I truly accepted this death, one thing I would change would be okay. If I truly accepted this death, I would stop. You know, would that be revolving in my mind? If I truly accepted this death, I could finally. I mean, I have a co author of this book. It's the person that's going to write it. Like, I want to help you tease out the places where you have accepted, where you can't accept, where you're. You know, I mean, I was just at a conference, and, you know, a woman bought three books, and she said, this is for the me today. This is for me in three months. This is the me in six months and in a year.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, she knows it's all going to keep changing and she's going to keep growing. And the fact that she knows she's going to keep changing and growing and that there's not one state.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, the first of all, you mentioned kids. I have to just start with children. We are a grief illiterate world in general. We are unbelievably grief illiterate when it comes to our children. I mean, people will tell me, you know, oh, you know, the other day the goldfish died and you know, our six year old was so sad. And I go, what'd you say? And they'll go, oh, we flushed it down the toilet, we told them it swam to the ocean.

[B]

And I'm like, you just stole from them.

[A]

You missed an opportunity. Well, I don't want to inflict pain. And I went, let me tell you, you are teaching them that if you cross the street without looking, pain will happen. And you want to spare them that pain by giving them information about the experience. Your child, 100%, like the stats are in 100% is going to go through loss this lifetime.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

They're going to go through breakups, they're going to go through stuff, they're going to go through loss. Boyfriends, girlfriends, break up with them, stuff's going to happen. And you are not going to teach about that. You're going to skip. Well, when they're older, I'm like, what are you going to do when they're older? Sacrifice a dog.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

I mean people go, but when do I begin teaching? When the goldfish dies?

[B]

Right now?

[A]

When the neighbor dies? When grandpa. That is the moment.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, yes, when life happens is when you teach.

[B]

So I want to tell a quick story. A buddy of mine had a. In my life, it's been the most adjacent horrific experience ever with loss of a child. And fast forward several years later, I've got a four year old, My boy is four years old and his dog dies. I took, I took the dog. The dog was very, very sick. Took the dog to put the dog down. And they come in and they put the dog down. And I wasn't particularly close to this dog. I was just being the dad. And we were going out to his ranch, he had a ranch out in Texas. And they put the dog down and then they take the dog and I come to find out they take the dog and all the dogs to a local incinerator in the city and there we go. And something didn't sit right and I hadn't connected the dots. And so I called this buddy and said, hey, I'm at the vet. I'm putting my dog down before I come out. And I know my son and my wife are already out there. I have a weird feeling about this. Would it be weird if I brought the dog out there? Me and my son bearded out at your place out in the woods. Long pause. And in his classic very Texas rancher way, he said, if you don't take this opportunity to teach your son about loss, you are failing him as a father. And oh, okay. And I went out there and I. We had to. It was a whole rigamaroo to. For them to let me take the dog. The dog's body. We got out there, there was a small shovel and a big shovel that my buddy had leaned up against a tree. And then later on, maybe two or three days later, I got an email. He said, I don't believe in capturing holy moments on film, so feel free to delete this. But there is a picture and it's off in the distance of me and my 4 year old digging a hole. And it's the most sacred photo I have. But more importantly than a photo is shortly thereafter my granddad died. Shortly thereafter, my grandmother died. Shortly thereafter, Shortly thereafter, the reference point for my 4 year old to anchor himself into love and anchor himself into his own body, but also absorb loss. All came back to that goofy dog. And so I thought, oh, my. The greatest gift I gave my child is to be with him in that moment, right? And now we can go. Remember the dog. This is like Granddad, right? Remember the dog. That's like grandmother. Remember the dog.

[A]

Those rituals, it's so I always say when people go, I don't understand that. I'll go. Think of it this way. When we have a birthday party, we get together and happy birthday is another way we say, I love you. And now that grandpa's died or the dog died, we gather again at the end to say I love you. That gathering goodbye is another way we say, I love you. And I'll tell you, I don't know that I've talked about this on a podcast. Just. It came up for me, so I'll say it. When my son died, my older son Richard, I knew this was going to happen. And I have an amazing goddaughter who is the epitome of elegance. I mean, she went to school in London. She is naturally elegant in a way. I will. Like, when I'm with her, I'm like, which fork?

[B]

No one's ever used those words to describe me.

[A]

She was always so elegant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When my younger son David died, we're at the funeral, we're done, and all of a sudden, the cemetery folks descend with the shovels, and they're gonna, you know, pack the dirt on the grave. And of course, my older son Richard goes, no, no, no, no, no. That's me. He's gonna do it. And then, like, I knew that would be him. And then in her most gorgeous black dress, my goddaughter picked up a shovel, and I'm like, that's like a ritual. That's, like, unforgettable, you know? And it's that saying goodbye. And you wouldn't think shoveling is a way to say goodbye and I love you. And one thing just to say, just since we're here about pet loss, after David died, I don't know, probably eight, nine months later, sweet dog of 17 years.

[B]

Of course it did. Of course.

[A]

And people want to go, well, clearly that didn't count after David's death or which was the worst. And I'm like, folks, there is no worst in this. These are two horrible events. There are two loves. I don't need to find a hierarchy so you can organize this in your brain. These are horrible events. A divorce is a horrible event for the person getting divorced Betrayal is pet losses. If the grief is. If the love is real, the grief is real. There is no hierarchy. And loss. Let that go.

[B]

Oh, man. And we could go down a whole route. Thank you for sharing that. There's. I think that's. My personal belief is those are things that our bodies adapted over millions of years to. To learn how to process. And we have just outsourced all of it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even. Even my grandmother's house had a room called the parlor. Right. And now the Emmy van shows up, takes the body away. They take care of it. I get 30 minutes, and I get maybe an open casket, and then it's over. And all of that grief stays here. And I. I believe in my guts there's something about shoveling. There's something about movement. There's something about that process that we've just stolen from ourselves.

[A]

Emotions need motion.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I like that. Say that again.

[A]

Emotions need motion. I'll tell you when you feel bad. Every time we're giving tips, we say, you gotta go walk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like we go, we can't recommend walking again. And then a study comes out that says how walking is so amazing. And we're like, if we feel, like, simplistic, like, for God's sakes. We can't keep saying, write a letter.

[B]

And go for a walk, man.

[A]

Yeah. But it needs. And just that this workbook is taking the pain out of you and putting it on paper.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let yourself see your pain on the paper.

[B]

How do you talk to somebody who experiences grief because they've got cancer and they're being betrayed by their own body or they have some sort of heart challenge. They've got a child with special needs. They've got a marriage that somebody violated the marriage. And they're going to work on it. But there's always going to be a sign of a crack in the foundation that's been. That you can always see the repair. How do you teach somebody to grieve something that is still present in real time? Really, what we're grieving is a picture of what we wanted to be true. That no longer is true.

[A]

Correct. You know, that is really sitting with the imperfections of life.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We wanted a perfect marriage. That's gone. That's gone. That's gone. Okay. And, you know, whether there's. There's a million analogies out there, whether it's the broken vase. Sure. That, you know, the vase can be put back together. Or whether it's a broken bone becomes stronger after the break. You know, I. This is a really hard one. Would I rather have a perfect good marriage or a real one? And I think I opt for perfect good, but that doesn't seem to be possible. I mean, we're all going to have.

[B]

We're going to hurt people.

[A]

Like, listen, everyone I know struggles with something. I promise you, everyone who has the perfect marriage, there's something there doesn't, you know, and look, it may not be the biggest infidelity, but there's something there. You know, all relationships, it's all pretty imperfect. And when we can allow that. And it kind of goes back to, you know, like, I need to keep up with the Joneses. No, you don't. No, you don't. It's all kind of imperfect to begin with. Yeah, yeah. And so it is the experience of life. I mean, I always try to opt for authentic. Over good, huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or over great.

[B]

We think we're right. Yeah.

[A]

Right. But I'd rather have something that's real, you know, and one of the things that I. It's, it's funny because it was an Oprah producer that did this for me. I used to call, you can imagine this. I used to get the pre interview calls and they would hear me, talk to me and then they go, thanks very much. And they would not choose me. Same producer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember finally saying to this producer, and she changed my life. I said, why do you never choose me? And she said to me, because you're the grief expert. And I said, I don't understand. And she goes, david, before we get to the pitch you're making, I really like you and you don't understand. We don't want to know the grief expert. We want to sit down and have a beer with our buddy that just happens to know a lot about loss. And when you can let go of the illusion that you're our expert, we'll connect with you. Oh, my gosh, what a favor she did for me. Because she was really saying. Because I was like, early in my career, she was like, dude, take the suit off. Let it go. Like, just be you.

[B]

And that's what I had the same gift here. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I found is my ancestors, my academies, was a suit of armor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is the way I protected my. Look how smart I am. Look how smart I am. And one woman, one time in a siding line said, you know, you're the big brother we've never had.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I was like, that's the greatest compliment I've ever received in this world. Right. Is I'll tell you the truth and you know I love you. All right, it's both hand. Hey everybody, listen to this. Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe, is having an end of year sale going on right now. I'm traveling a lot this holiday season and when I'm out on the road, I count down the days till I can get back to my Helix mattress. Sleeping on my Helix mattress has transformed my rest and I'm getting into new levels of deep, refreshing sleep. And I say this all the time. Every one of these commercials, I say this. All of my family members sleep on a Helix mattress now. And my family is different, just like all of you are different. And since everyone sleeps in their own unique way, Helix has created different mattress models designed for side sleepers, stomach sleepers, back sleepers for everyone. And if your spine needs a little extra love, they have mattresses for you too. Helix offers a hundred night trial and all Helix mattresses come with either a 10 or 15 year warranty. Just take the Helix sleep quiz just like I did, and you'll find the perfect mattress for your sleep preferences in less than two minutes. And here's the raddest part. Helix end of year sales going on right now. 25% off all mattress orders plus a free bedding bundle. Go to helix sleep.com DeLoney for details and to save 25 off, that's Helix. H E L I X helixsleep.com DeLoney with Helix, better sleep starts right now. I have found it easier to grieve. God's about a bigger plan or loss just happened or I don't understand cancer. It just is right, right. I have learned to grieve that right. What I personally continue to struggle with is, no, I did say that I did hurt that person. How do you grieve loss, Relationship breakups? How do you grieve death when you did play a role? And I'm thinking of the parent who, here's where it comes to me most. There's an alcoholic, abusive parent. The other parent didn't intervene in a way. And there's some sort of cascading event that ends up in their children experiencing some sort of poor relationship or addiction or some sort of challenges down the road. And as they heal and they begin to put two and two together, they say, I didn't protect my kid from that abuser. I kept inviting that man into our home. Or I right. How do you grieve when you did play a role?

[A]

It's a huge question. Our mind would always rather be guilty Than helpless. You want to blame.

[B]

So it's about power.

[A]

Everything on that moment. Someone died because of that moment. The betrayal happened because of that moment. Whatever, you know, that was the moment. Most moments are complex with a lot of different factors. Now, for your one moment, if I was working with that person in the one moment we would talk about. The decisions you made were probably out of your wounds. Doesn't excuse you. Doesn't let you off the hook from anything. They were out of your wounds. They were out of your fears. They were out of the lowest part of you. You know, you've made mistakes, but so have I. And so that's where we have to begin. And then we also have to begin forgiveness.

[B]

Forgiveness. Yeah. And that's just simply the practice of saying, I'm not going to carry that anymore.

[A]

It's a. It's a lot of work. I often say forgiveness starts with a 30 day practice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like people. Like I thought. And it didn't work. I'm like.

[B]

I use that word all the time. You got to practice. It's a practice to practice. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

I have so much in here about guilt.

[B]

I know.

[A]

There's like four different exercises. I take. It's the biggest chunk of the book.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

People can go right to this book. They don't have to have bought the original. They go right to this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Last one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I am working through finding meaning years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I read this part and I literally slammed it down and I thought, David's right. And I don't like what you're saying.

[A]

Great. Great.

[B]

And yet this is me on the heels of years of working through what I think has become my. It's. It's the greatest challenge. I think it's a gift. And it's also one of my greatest challenges, which is what I would call empathetic rumination. I will sit on a feeling or a thing I've done. And I will loop and I will loop and I will loop and I will. My body will go back to that thing I said in seventh grade to that girl who said, I like you. And I embarrassed her in front of everybody. I still can feel that right now. How I hurt her. I can still go back to the things I've done and said to my wife that still haunt me. To the things I've said to myself. I can live in it. And then you had the audacity.

[A]

Yeah. What I say. God, what did I say? Let's hear it.

[B]

To come out and write and so honest and truthful with Practice. You can control your thoughts. And at the end of the day, that parent who is just eating breakfast and that lightning bolt of that picture of their child in the casket, they can't control that lightning bolt, but they can control every thought after that. Or the person who finds out, you know, accidentally somebody's text message pop up on the family iPad, and there's some pretty gratuitous texts between your husband and his mistress. And that image flashes with him in bed with somebody else, and it can't get out of your head. The idea that. Yeah, it can.

[A]

And the idea that, like, it is heartbreaking that they betrayed you in that affair that night, those years, whatever it is. Oh, it's equally heartbreaking that you betray yourself every day.

[B]

Pisses me off.

[A]

You replay it. You replay it. No one betrays me like I betray myself. Now, here's the thing about this. When we talk about this, people go, wait, wait. But trauma, you don't have control. Absolutely. The images are going to pop up. You can't control those horrible things that are going to pop up. You control how long you stay there.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

How long you linger. I'll give you another example. A woman said to me, david, it's been five years. I cannot get the picture out of my mind of my child in the casket. And I go, of course, of course you can't. Of course you can't. But it doesn't have to be where you live. I said, how often do you picture it? And she goes, every time my phone rings and it was her screen saver.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

And I was like, oh, dear, dear one, dear one, there's some help here. There's some hope, Dear one, that's the. Your keeping that horrific moment that does not define your child. Their death does not define them. So we have control over the images on our phone and the images in our mind. We have control.

[B]

So you mentioned something in, in this book, and it's an exercise that I think is incredibly instructive. And, and it's one of the. The classic gurus. I don't remember if it was. I. I. Adler's the one that comes to mind, but I remember a really profound statement that was, I thought if I took away my clients or patients, anxiety and depression, that they would be healed. And what I found is when I just took away their anxiety and depression, they were empty. And I love the exercise that you give that. It's not a matter of just saying, stop thinking about that, but it's the affirmative practice. I am going to have a picture on my phone of my child laughing their head off. If I have chosen to stay in a marriage and rebuild something from the ground up after betrayal, I'm going to put a picture of us dying, laughing together on my phone. I have a picture of a really lovely memory of when I showed up for my wife. So that when I'm sad and I haven't eaten well and I'm not sleeping and I'm exhausted and that hungry, angry, that lightning bolt of, oh, yeah, remember when. It's always when I'm counseling somebody, I'm sitting with somebody on how to be a good husband, and it's like, who do you think you are? It's that, right? Oh, I got a picture to replace it.

[A]

And if I want my spouse to be committed to a healthy marriage, a healthy relationship, I can't stay committed to the betrayal.

[B]

I got to go all in. And risk getting hurt again?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's the only way. It's the only path.

[A]

That's the grace. And that's the grace. It's the grace. And it's your only shot at a healthy relate. We know how many of us take the bricks of the ruined moment in the relationship and try to use those bricks to rebuild the next relationship.

[B]

Start over, man. Yeah, but similar. You can stay graveside watching your daughter, your goddaughter shovel dirt. You can stay there.

[A]

Or I can see, she just had a baby. I can watch. She just had a baby. There's new life. Absolutely horrible death and there's new life. And I want to be present for both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to grieve fully and live fully. Some of us know how to attend to the grieving and not the living. Some of us know how to live and not attend the grief. I want to know how to do both.

[B]

On behalf of my family and my friends and ancestors that I'm trying to bring peace to their grandkids. Thank you. Thank you for dedicating your life to this. Your. I'm always nervous about people's body energy when they write something great and you meet them, it's a little bit. Thank you for just being a graceful person. It's a blessing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[A]

It's my honor, man. You're one of my people. I like. I love watching you. I love listening to the podcast.

[B]

You're a gift. Thank you. My brother and I wish you, Wish you much grace and then can't wait to get you back.

[A]

Thank you. I agree.

[B]

Hey, folks, the colder weather is finally here and that means I'm wearing more flannel and denim shirts from the only shirt maker I wear. Poncho. The world's best performance shirts for men. Poncho shirts are all amazing and I especially love their flannels and their faded denim shirts in the cold weather. I love poncho flannels and denims because they're super soft and super durable. You can't destroy them. I've been trying and I can't. And they have a little bit of stretch, they move with you and they dry quickly and they have slim and regular fits for different body types. Remember, you have a couple days left. Poncho shirts make great gifts for the men in your family this holiday season. Head to ponchooutdoors.com and check out all of their shirt styles. And right now, use code Deloney show at checkout and you'll get a gift with every purchase of a button down shirt. Go to poncho outdoors.com use code DeLoney Show. All right, that was my conversation with the great David Kessler. If you were watching this on YouTube, you saw that I was taking notes throughout the entire conversation. And if you were listening to it, I hope that you learned a lot too. And if you're watching, I hope you learned a lot also. All of his stuff, his books, his website, everything is linked in the show notes. And again, I've got his Finding Meaning workbook working through the six stages of grief and there is a fake one going around on the Internet. And so I told him that I would let all you all know that there's a fake one on the Internet. If you get online to buy Finding Meaning, the sixth stage of Grief workbook, make sure it's actually by David Kessler. Thank you everyone who joined us for this two part conversation. And I can't wait to see y'all soon right here on the Dr. John DeLoney Show.