How Do We Close Our Open Marriage?

Summary

The Dr. John Delony Show – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Dr. John Delony Show
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)
Episode: How Do We Close Our Open Marriage?
Date: December 15, 2025

---

Overview

In this emotionally charged, caller-driven episode, Dr. John Delony answers questions around marriage, faith, family legacy, and processing trauma. The main feature is a thought-provoking discussion with a Christian woman struggling to close an open marriage, followed by other impactful calls touching on generational secrets and secondary trauma from working as a death investigator. True to his candid and empathetic style, Dr. Delony confronts hard truths, encourages honest introspection, and emphasizes taking ownership of one’s choices.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Navigating & Closing an Open Marriage (00:05–19:12)

Topic: Caller Catherine, a born-again Christian, calls in conflicted about a decade-long open/swinging marriage she never fully embraced.

• Background: Married 20 years, 4 kids, happy on the surface but for 10 years engaged in consensual non-monogamy (CNM)/swinging at her husband’s suggestion.
• Faith Conflict: Both raised conservative and met at Bible college. Catherine increasingly feels their arrangement is not spiritually or personally right.
• Initiation and Persuasion: Her husband introduced the idea after deconstructing previous legalistic beliefs; he pursued swinging for exploration and convinced Catherine after many conversations.
  • [Quote, Catherine, 04:13]: “He basically, over several months, kind of convinced me that maybe this was a good idea… I realized two things. I think he was going to do something anyway and maybe, maybe he needed…to have some experiences outside of me…he didn’t want to do it without my knowledge or consent.”
• Reluctance and Regret: Catherine joined in but always felt a “nagging feeling” of wrongness and emptiness post-encounters.
  • [Quote, Catherine, 07:17]: “I do have a lot of fun in the moment, but then I feel empty, like, trying to survive off Twinkies.”
• Communication Improvement: Despite doubts, she notes improved dialogue with her husband due to increased honesty about desires and experiences.
• Current Stand: She is ready to stop, feeling convicted by scripture, but fears her husband may not follow and worries standing firm will “end everything.”

Dr. Delony’s Perspective & Advice

• Gaslighting and Maturity: John expresses concern over the husband's persuasive tactics, calling it bright “gaslighting”—using intellect and faith interpretation to rationalize selfish desires and downplay Catherine’s instincts.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 08:26]: “The gaslights are burning so brightly in your home, it's blinding.”
• Parallel Issues: Similar patterns appear in other decisions (e.g., church-hopping, parenting), where her feelings are overridden by his preferences.
• Call for Ownership: John encourages Catherine to finally prioritize her convictions and personal agency.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 15:35]: “What you have to do for the first time in your marriage is say, I am finished. And here's what I am finished means: I'm not sleeping with anybody else. The marriage we had is over. I want to build a new one where fidelity and integrity mean something...”
• Warning: Asserting her stance may risk the marriage, but not asserting it keeps her in a dissolved, unsatisfying relationship.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 18:52]: “If that's the case, I want to tell you that the marriage you think you're holding on to is already over. It's over. You're just getting dragged behind it.”
• Affirmation: John praises Catherine’s honesty and courage to break the pattern.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 19:12]: “I'm proud of you. Proud of you for standing tall as an adult. And I'm proud of you for saying, I want things to be different… The marriage you had is over... I hope you will rebuild a marriage with me and stand in the hurricane of whatever the response is going to be... But you're worth that.”

---

2. Addressing a Family Legacy of Infidelity with Teenage Daughter (22:54–38:35)

Topic: Caller Elizabeth seeks guidance on telling her perceptive 15-year-old daughter about her grandmother’s past affair (involving the family’s pastor), after the daughter overhears a family conversation.

• Initial Hesitation: Elizabeth and her husband delay responding, unsure what to reveal, fearing impact on family relationships.
• John’s 30,000-Foot View (24:31):
  • Immediate, honest communication is crucial for trust—waiting sends the message some things are “off limits.”
  • Both parents should respond, modeling openness, admitting missteps, and conveying that no subject is too big for family discussion.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 25:26]: “Every minute y' all don't respond back to this 15 year old, she's getting the message that some things are not okay to ask mom and dad.”
• How to Handle the Disclosure:
  • Present only facts, without character assassination.
  • Normalize that people make mistakes—emphasize growth, context, and resilience.
  • Contextualize church dynamics: women bear more shame than men in scandal.
  • Share personal lessons and family history for teaching moments (Elizabeth was herself 19 during the scandal).
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 27:56]: “It's time you learn...That's the fabric of our family.”
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 34:33]: “The consequences of the mess up—one person carries disproportionately; often in faith communities, the woman carries it more than the man does.”
• Empowerment & Healing:
  • John suggests a personal exercise: write a letter to your 19-year-old self to process the wounds, and, if brave enough, share it with the daughter.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 37:28]: “If you want to be a gangster...write 19-year-old you a letter about what that poor girl experienced.”

---

3. Secondary Trauma in Death Investigation & Coping with Nightmares (41:40–60:19)

Topic: Sarah, a death investigator, is struggling with vivid, ongoing death-related nightmares and increasing anxiety, despite loving her job.

• On-the-Job Trauma: Daily exposure to graphic, tragic scenes; Sarah feels fine in the moment but is haunted by what she experiences.
  • [Quote, Sarah, 46:22]: “It doesn't bother me in the moment...I think that makes me good at my job...But…when I come home, my brain holds on to the things I see and then I dream about them at night."
• John’s Validation: Affirms need for gallows humor and clinical detachment on-scene; acknowledges the cost to one’s spirit, the “body keeps the score.”
• Coping Strategies (52:56):
  1. After each case, handwrite a letter to the deceased (“Dear Susan/Tommy…”), processing emotions physically.
  2. Develop a physical routine (walking, yoga) with intentional sensory grounding after shifts.
  3. Use skin-to-skin contact and brief, structured emotional disclosures with spouse for reconnection.
  4. Use nightmares as signals; upon waking, journal an alternate, positive ending to reassert control and decrease their intensity.
  • [Quote, Dr. DeLoney, 57:59]: “Your body is keeping track of all of this, whether you consciously are or not. And I want to say, thank God that your body loves you enough to try to keep you safe too.”
• Long-Term Warning: Without intentional self-care and relationship maintenance, burnout and compassion fatigue are inevitable.
• Encouragement: John calls Sarah a "modern day Saint", emphasizing the need for dedicated, compassionate professionals in such vital roles.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gaslighting in Relationships
  • Dr. DeLoney [08:26]: “The gaslights are burning so brightly in your home, it's blinding.”
• On Fun vs. Fulfillment in Open Marriage
  • Catherine [07:17]: “I do have a lot of fun in the moment, but then I feel empty, like, trying to survive off Twinkies.”
• On Standing Up for Yourself
  • Dr. DeLoney [15:35]: “What you have to do...is say, I am finished... The marriage we had is over. I want to build a new one where fidelity and integrity mean something.”
• On Shifting Generational Taboos
  • Dr. DeLoney [27:56]: “It's time you learn. Grandma...That’s the fabric of our family.”
• On Burnout in Traumatic Professions
  • Dr. DeLoney [53:48]: “You have to have a yoga practice, a walking practice, an exercise practice of some sort... You are bringing your body back from what it's starting to spin out and plan for your future death.”
• On Healing Family Wounds
  • Dr. DeLoney [37:28]: “If you want to be a gangster... write 19-year-old you a letter...and if you want to be a real gangster, read it to your daughter. Here's a letter I wrote to myself.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:05–19:12] Catherine’s open marriage struggle, religious and emotional conflict, John’s coaching
• [22:54–38:35] Elizabeth’s dilemma on revealing family affair to daughter; advice on intergenerational honesty
• [41:40–60:19] Sarah the death investigator’s trauma, John’s deep dive on processing nightmares and secondary trauma

---

Tone & Style

• Warm, direct, and at times gently confrontational.
• Deeply empathetic, leaning both on clinical expertise and personal stories.
• Mixes humor, affirmation, and hard truths to empower callers to action.

---

For Listeners

This episode is invaluable for anyone navigating complex marital decisions, generational wounds, or the emotional cost of frontline work. Dr. Delony’s steadfast encouragement to do the hard, right thing—and his pragmatic, often poetic advice—offer roadmap for healing and restoration, both personally and relationally.

Transcript

[Caller]

For the last 10 years of our marriage, we've been open or swinging. I've always had a, just kind of a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that it was wrong. We're both born again Christians. We both grew up very conservative, met at Bible college.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Who brought it up?

[Caller]

He brought it up, of course.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No way. Really?

[Caller]

Yeah. I know. It's shocking.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hello, everybod. Hey, this is John with the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee. I'm a real person, not a robot. I'm a real person talking to real people who are going through real challenges, whether with their relationships, their mental and emotional health, their kids, their marriages, dating, whatever they got going on in their life. They pull up a seat and we figure out what's the next right move. And that's what this show is about. If you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you. John Deloney. D E L O n y john deloney.com/ask a s k fill out the form and we will holler back girl at you and get you on the show. And yes, I get, I get DMS from all over the planet. We do take calls from the uk, from Australia, from Canada, from all over the place. Right. Wherever you're calling in from, we'll figure out a way to get you on and love to talk to you about what's going on in your life. All right, let's talk about your marriage. Right now we have February and October weekends on sale for the money in Marriage Getaway. It's the best marriage retreat on the planet. Tickets start at 749 bucks a couple. Get [e-mail] getaway let's go to Baltimore, Maryland and talk to Catherine. Hey, Katherine, what's going on?

[Caller]

Oh, hi, Dr. John. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Of course. What's going on?

[Caller]

Not much. I, I had a kind of a question that I wanted to bounce off of someone and I'm a big fan and I thought maybe you could give me some, some good advice.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I would love it. Let's go.

[Caller]

So my husband and I have been married for 20 years. We've got four kids or very happily married. You know, have, you know, we've got issues, but nothing earth shattering or out of the ordinary. I guess we do have, for the last 10 years of our marriage, we've been open or swinging.

Okay.

And since that started, I've always had a, just kind of a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that it was wrong and we're both born again Christians. We both grew up very conservative, met at Bible college. We were virgins when we got married. So this is obviously a huge step, not in that lineup for us. And it was, I mean, we had a series of conversations over months and months and months before we even got to the place where we were willing to even try something. So who brought it up? It has. He brought it up. Of course.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No way. Really?

[Caller]

Yeah, I know. It's shocking. He was, he's a big researcher. He loves to read, he loves to study. He keeps a very early study time like he did in college. And so he loves to read and loves to learn. And in his learning and reading, after we had kind of gotten out of a very strict legalistic conservative background, he was reading about how sex is maybe a little bit different in the Bible than what we were taught, which is basically, it's bad unless you're married and then that's basically the end of it. So it took him on a really wild journey of studying just everywhere in the Bible that talked about sex. And he was like, I don't think sex is as cut and dry as we've been led to believe it is. So that led to a lot of questions on his part and maybe a pendulum swing to the other direction where he thought was thinking that we could open our marriage as long as we were both consenting adults and there was no lying and everything was up front. And I wasn't so excited about that. I definitely felt that I had everything I needed in the marriage and that.

I wasn't interested in exploring anything.

And he basically, over several months, kind of convinced me that maybe this was a good idea. And as the conversations continued, I realized two things. I think he was going to do something anyway and maybe, maybe he needed to or felt like he needed to have some experiences outside of me that he was very curious about and he didn't want to do it without my knowledge or consent. So this was maybe a way to do that. I don't know. It's. It's been very, we've talked a lot about it in a lot of circles anyway.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm sure you have. By the way, I'm going to pause here. If he was on the phone, we'd be having a radically different conversation about.

[Caller]

I'm trying to give him very, a lot of, a lot of benefit of the doubt.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You, I don't know whether you're delusional or you are, are honoring. Right. Like, I, I don't want to talk about somebody when they're not sitting here.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Either way. Awesome. Cool. And we won't talk about. We'll get into his.

[Caller]

Well, let me stick with my own.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go. Awesome. His deconstruction.

[Caller]

Anyway, I was not convinced that it was a good idea.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, but you went along with.

[Caller]

Eventually I decided to kind of go along with it and see what happened, basically.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hold on. When you say go. When you say go along with it, was that you finding people to be with too, or is it letting him do his thing and still come home?

[Caller]

So it's very much a two way street. He did not want it to be one and not the other.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Caller]

He wanted. He actually said he kind of felt bad for me that I was his only experience or that he was my only experience ever with anything intimacy wise. And I told him I was just really happy with that and I wasn't really curious. And he was like, yeah, but I think you might be. I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe a little bit, but not enough to go do something about it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But for him, he wanted to go sleep with other people and for it to be okay for him. He needed you to sleep with other people so that he could sleep at night?

[Caller]

I think so. And we were. We were in a place in our marriage where he was traveling a lot for work. Every week I was home alone with the kids. He would come home very sexually frustrated after being gone for so long. We would always fight, you know, because the tension was just ridiculous.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the solution was if we just both slept with other people, then that tension would be gone.

[Caller]

It didn't start that way, but it ended up being that. And it actually, I think, really helped us a lot. And he didn't. He was very fair. He didn't want to be going out having fun without me having something at home. So he worked very hard to make sure I was comfortable and, like, knew what was going on. He didn't sneak around. Our communication improved because we were talking a lot about sex and what we wanted and trying to be very honest with each other. And in that honesty, I did realize that I was just having all this. These nagging feelings of doubt and guilt.

About all of this.

And I brought that up to him. And he. We talked. We've talked about it many times. And he was always kind of like, are you sure you're guilty? Because you seem like you have a lot of fun in the moment. I was like, I do have a lot of fun in the moment, but then I feel empty, like, trying to survive off Twinkies. Like it's just not fulfilling in the long run. It's fun, but it's not. It's not a need, I guess it's just fun. And that's what it's become. And just through my own personal study of scripture, I've just. I'm really at the point where I. I feel like it's wrong and I don't see it as being God's prescription for a healthy marriage. And I want to be done like myself. And I think he would be honoring of that. If I want to it up to him, which I will be eventually, he'd honor me not. Not participating. But of course I would prefer him not to participate either. And I think that is where I come up to a problem because all this time I've had this. This nagging feeling about it being wrong, but I've agreed to it anyway.

So let me ask you, why am.

I, like, standing up for it now?

I guess, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Gosh, the gas lights are burning so brightly in your home, it's blinding. And let me. Let's. Let's take. Let's take sleeping with other people off the table, right? Because consensual non monogamy is this big thing and it's. People rationalize it in a million different ways and we're just two grownups and we can do whatever we want, blah, all that stuff.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Give me another example in your house where you feel strongly about a thing, raising kids, how you spend your money, going on vacation, dealing with in laws, whatever, where you have a very strong feeling about it. And he, because he's quote unquote studying or he is quote unquote smarter than or he's a great wordsmith. Has convinced you that the way you see this thing is inaccurate.

[Caller]

Okay? We've been going to a church our whole life and we've moved from church to church to church more times than I care to remember. And usually because something has been taught or handled in a way that he doesn't think is healthy, which I agree with. But I don't agree that it's a reason to leave.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so give me something not faith related.

[Caller]

What's that?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Give me something not faith related.

[Caller]

Okay.

That's really hard to find.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Really? Y' all are in total alignment on everything else.

[Caller]

Oh, no, no, no, no. But just kind of faith is like the line through everything for both of us. Not that we are in agreement, but.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because here's what, here's what I'm hearing.

[Caller]

Kids and just kids and discipline.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Great.

[Caller]

There's another one we'll talk about that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you have a thing in your guts when he yells at your kids or he spanks your kids, or he, like, walks away from your kids, whatever. And there's a nagging sense as a mother, this is not right. Or I don't like it like this. And he then throws a Bible verse at you. Or I've been studying this, and this is the way they. Whatever.

[Caller]

There are a few things like that. I, I believe it's our job to be the parents and the children are the children, and we should be the ones making the big decision in our, our household. And it is not the responsibility of the children. And on certain issues, he will say, okay, the kids, what do you think? And let's pull the ideas, which for some things is okay, like, what game do we want to play tonight?

Or what movie should we watch? That's fine.

But I mean, we're talking big decisions, like moving to another state or things like this. And I'm like, this is not their decision.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right, right, right.

[Caller]

And he was like, well, I just want to see what they think. I said, yeah, but now our daughter is upset because she thinks, because she agreed to the move and she's moving away from her friends, it was her fault for agreeing.

Like, that's not exactly.

Yeah, that's not her responsibility. We shouldn't be putting that on them. And he kind of disagrees. And I don't know if it's because of the way he was brought up or whatever. He usually doesn't throw a Bible verse in it. He's just like, I want to know what they think.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So here's what I'm hearing.

[Caller]

Very much a preference.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I would say this if he was here and not actually, not even in a judgy way, but just in a fact way. He has an allergy to maturity. He has an allergy to discomfort. And what he will do is use any tool at his disposal, children, the Bible, anything that will justify him not doing a thing that he finds not pleasurable or uncomfortable. Of course, sleeping with people is. Feels good in the moment. It. Sex, right? And when I look at you and say, till death do us part, I do. I'm. I am anchoring into bedrock, into concrete, that you are my person. And my pushback is you don't have to have sex with other people to work hard on your communication.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You don't have to have sex with other people to deal with the root of the issue, which is you work a lot when you're gone and you're not present in the home. And I'm stuck here in the house with these kids when you're off. And by the way, my life is very similar to that. I'm on the road all the time. I get that. I get being frustrated, I get being lonely. I get coming home into the rhythm of a household that is moving on without me because I'm gone. And we have to figure out ways to come back together. And you don't have to go bang other people for that. You get what I'm saying? And absolutely, it is hard. It was hard looking at my two kids saying, hey, y' all have a community. Y' all have friends. And I am got a new job. I am moving y' all across the country and watching them cry, watching them be sad, watching them struggle, meeting new friends at a new school, watching my wife have to figure out because I'm right on the road again. Like how to like Internet service and light bills and why is this company. Right, but that's mine to own, not to put it on them too. So they have to carry a little bit of it also. Right? You see what I'm saying? Like, it's my job as a husband and as a dad to co create a world with my wife where my life isn't. In fact, it's the opposite of comfortable all the time. I have little glimpses of comfort amidst great discomfort because that's what I took on, right? And this is a person. And by the way, this is the pot talking to the kettle on this one. I bounce from church to church to church because at some point in a faith community, faith requires accountability. And when the pastor would say something or the Sunday school teacher said something that might have. Might be in the Bible, but I don't like it, then I can. I'm a good word Smith. I went to a lot of grad school classes. I can work my way around it. And so when I got to Nashville, you know what? This was the big moment for me when my daughter was born. After multiple miscarriages, years of us trying, I reached out to a couple of men that were kind of paternal figures for me in my church growing up when I was a little kid. And I realized in that moment, oh, my arrogance and my not wanting to be held accountable by the community, by the way, I signed up for. I signed up for this faith community. I've robbed my son of these relationships because I keep moving every six months to a new building, to a new building, to a new building, right? Not trying to find truth and not trying to find growth, but trying to find comfort. Right. All that to say is, you can't change any of that for him.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What you have to do for the first time in your marriage is say, I am finished. And here's what I am finished means I'm not sleeping with anybody else. The marriage we had is over. I want to build a new one where fidelity and integrity mean something. Where we are the adults in our house and we work hard together, doing hard things, feeling uncomfortable for a greater good. And that also means I'm not going to be married to somebody who is having sex with other people. Whether you tell me about it or not, because I am selfish. I want you for me. Just like we promised ourselves at the altar, her. When we're going to make big decisions about moving across the country or taking new jobs or changing schools or what, going on Christmas vacation, we as the adults are going to own that and we are going to tell our children what we're doing. I'm not going to make them carry a piece of that because their little backs and legs can't carry that kind of weight.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And you know as well as I do that's 55 different things. Being a part of a faith community means purposely putting yourself in a position to be uncomfortable because that's the only way you get stronger and grow. It's like going to the weight room and taking all the weight off the bar. Right. You can do 500 reps in a gym if you don't have any weight on the bar, but you're not gonna get any stronger. And there's academic ways around everything these days. Look at our government right now. It's still shut down as of this recording because one side is saying this is true and the other side is saying this is true. Right. You know what I'm saying?

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I want to. I want to free you of this is the way we've done this stuff. This is what I agreed to. And I appreciate you being like a grown up saying, I didn't like it, but I said okay. And not only did I say okay, I went and slept with other guys. I've done. I've participated in this. And it ends today.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you have to hold true that he may walk out the door on you because his sexual appetite with other people is more important to him than fidelity in your marriage.

[Caller]

Yeah, he might.

Yeah, that's a hard one to swallow.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know he might. And so it's you saying, okay, I'm an adult. And by the way. I'm so proud of you for owning your choices. Like, owning them. Not just being like, he made me. You're saying, nope, I did that. I went to another dude's house on multiple occasions and slept with other dudes. Cool. And as of now, that's over. Tell me what scares you to death about making that stand for yourself and for your marriage, for your kids, for honesty?

[Caller]

I'm afraid it would end everything.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. If that's the case, I want to tell you that the marriage you think you're holding on to is already over. It's over. You're just getting dragged behind it.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'll tell you, man, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. Proud of you for owning it. I'm proud of you for standing tall as an adult. And I'm proud of you for saying, I want things to be different. Going now. The marriage you had is over. And by the way, it's been over for a long time. The question is, can you sit down and say, moving forward, I'm done with this world. I'm done with this life that we've been leading, and here's what I want for us going forward. I hope you will rebuild a marriage with me and standing in the hurricane of whatever the response is going to be. My hope is, he says, I'm with you. We're going to figure this out. I get by your silence that he probably won't. But you're worth that. You're worth standing on the truth. And finally, for the first time since you were a little bitty girl, saying, I'm going to do what's right for me, which I think ultimately will be what's right for y'. All. Thank you so, so much for the call. Appreciate it. You're a brave, brave woman. We come back, a woman asks how to tell her daughter about her mom's past affair without hurting everybody's relations. This time of year, we're giving our time, our money. And sometimes, without meaning to, we're giving away something way more personal, our data. That's why I recommend delete me. I like a good deal as much as the next guy, but I want you to remember that every email, click, every newsletter you sign up for, every time you put your personal information on the Internet, it's another chance that somebody else behind the scenes is going to get your personal information. And your personal information doesn't just stay there. Shady data brokers grab it, bundle it, and they sell it. Like your name, your phone number, your address, where your Kids go to school, all of this stuff just floating around out there in the digital wilderness. That's how you end up with all these spam calls and weird texts that make you feel like someone's watching over your shoulder and stealing your digital life. If you want to take back your privacy and your peace, you need Delete Me. They're like a digital cleaning crew. They find your information on these data broker websites and they get it removed and they keep it gone. Peace doesn't just come from turning off notifications. It comes from knowing that your data is not up for sale right now. You can get 20% off your annual delete me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com DeLoney that's join J O I N joindeleteme.com/deloney this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right. The holidays are a time of traditions. Some traditions are great and some traditions have run their course. It's a great time to reflect on those traditions and what they really mean to you and to ask yourself, is it time to begin to create new traditions on your own? Therapy can give you space to create new traditions, reflect on the old ones, and most importantly, take time for yourself. If you're thinking about therapy, I recommend BetterHelp. They've served over 5 million people globally with an average rating of 4.9 stars out of 5. BetterHelp is totally online, so it's easy to fit into your busy holiday schedule. To get started, just answer a few simple questions and they'll connect you with a licensed therapist who fits your needs. And if it happens to not be the right fit, you can change therapist at any time for no extra cost. This month, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com/deloney okay, let's go up north to Toronto, Ontario and talk to Elizabeth. Hey, Elizabeth. What's going on?

[Caller]

Hey, thanks for having me today. I really appreciate your help.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You got it. What's going on?

[Caller]

Yeah.

So my daughter is 15 and she's very perceptive about people in relationships. She's a really intelligent kid. And I recently learned from my husband that she overheard a conversation between some family members about some sort of quote unquote mistake that my mom made in the past. That was an affair, but she's not aware of that yet. So I know that she doesn't know all the details. She didn't hear all the details, but she Went to my husband and basically asked, did grandma make some sort of mistake in the past? So my husband came to me, he said to her that it wasn't a story for him to tell, but he would talk to me about it. So. But that kind of brings us to present day and we haven't gone back to her to say anything because I just feel really puzzled about first of all, what would be appropriate. And I'm also just concerned about her relationship with her grandmother. And yeah, I love this question.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm going to Talk at a 30,000 foot view real quick and give you a landscape of how important this is and then give you some tactics. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here is the 30,000 foot umbrella that we need to make sure we tackle asap. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This amazing 15 year old girl that you have overheard a family secret. Every family has them.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And she did an amazing thing which tells me that you have, you and your husband have done a really fantastic job of creating a relationship with, with your daughter. Bravo.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because this 15 year old came to one of you and said, hey, I heard this thing. Is this true? Okay. So the meta. The, the umbrella concern I have right this second is every minute y' all don't respond back to this 15 year old, she's getting the message that some things are not okay to ask mom and dad.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then what happens next year when her boyfriend pushes her a little bit too far or when she's heading off to college and she maybe doesn't want to go to college, she wants to take a gap year. She knows in her nervous system there are some things, the bigger they are, the, the more I cannot go to mom and dad. And so we want to do is go directly through the middle of this. And so when you and your husband sit down and talk to her and I think it's important that y' all go unified on this one because he, because she went to him is y' all say, we want to take back what. Just how this played out. You can always come to us. And I want your husband to have the courage to say. And by the way, I have said these exact words in my house, by the way, is to look at. And I have a 15 year old too. Look directly at your 15 year old and say, you came to me with a big thing and I kind of wimped out. I'm sorry. I froze. You can always come to us and this is us making this right. Okay. And I would, I would, I'd add on the things I just said and you can Hop in and say there's going to be a boyfriend and you're gonna have a bad experience with him. And I want you to know you can always come to us. You're going to learn other family secrets and you can always come to us. One day, you might accidentally stumble on text messages, flirty, gross ones that your dad sent me, and you're gonna freak out, and I want you to be able to come to us.

[Caller]

Right? Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so it's starting there. The second part of this is. Is the tactical part, and that is this. You can't protect your mom from her past decision. What you can do is protect your daughter in your relationship. And you can do that in an honoring and dignified way. And the only way to do this is take these. Take these words with you and put them. Etch them into stone. Facts are your friends. And calm is contagious. Okay? It's as simple as. So you overheard about the big secrets about grandma. What'd you hear? I don't know. I just heard that grandma made a big mistake one time and this and this. And actually, probably based on your husband's reaction, she's probably going to say something like, it's. It's no big deal, Mom, I don't need to know. And it's for you to say, actually. Yeah, you do. You're 15. It's time you learn. Grandma.

[Caller]

Yeah, it's kind of. I figured. I mean, we're kind of at the point where she. I feel that she does kind of need to know some of what the fabric of our family.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's it. That's it. And so what we're going to say is we're going to say, facts are your friends. And what do we mean, Grandma? I don't know what the story is. I'll make up one just for fun. We lived in a small town, and there was a really handsome farmer that came over and cut hay for us. And grandma had eyes for another farmer. And she had a fair in our little town and it caused a big old stir. And your daughter's eyes will get huge and say, grandma made a mistake. Now when I say facts of your friends, we're going to say, grandma had an affair. Grandma made a mistake. We're not going to say grandma was. And we're going to throw in a bunch of character assassination terms.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And what you're going to get. And you're also going to be able to say, and grandma, I don't know if she. Did she make it right? Did she say she was Sorry. Did, did she bury it? I don't know if you were in a huge city or in a small. Like what was the, what was the, the jet blast after or the blast radius of all of this?

[Caller]

Well, it was pretty far reaching because it was the pastor of our church.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Nice. Nice. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. Even better. It's okay. So, I mean, if she didn't hear it through one of us.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

It might come some other way to her.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It will. And in addition to it coming to her, she's also going to have the added burden of I have no one to talk to about this.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And in this day and age, you know what she's gonna do? She's gonna go to chat GPT on how to deal with it.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or worse, she's gonna say, oh, my parents think I'm stupid. My parents think I don't understand these things. My parents think I don't know anything about filling the sex, but fill in the blank. And I mean, she's listened to enough Taylor Swift songs. She gets it, right?

[Caller]

Yeah. And so she's really smart. And like I said, like she. And maybe in a 15 year old kind of way, she is, like I said, pretty perceptive about relationships. But also in a 15 year old way, I feel like she's kind of in her era of thinking she knows everything and a little bit judgy about everything she's supposed to. So I can't. Yeah. But I kind of worry about like her getting this information right now. Like what it's going to do to strain the relationship with my mom.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here's what she has to work through. Oh my gosh. This person did a thing one time. And this person is really amazing to me when I show up every, every time I see her. This person made a huge mistake one time. And also this is a great opportunity to talk about power dynamics. And this might be when your husband leaves the table and you're able to say, hey, there's going to be men who want things from you. And you're not going to see it coming until it's. Until it might be close to too late. And if you want to be a real gangster, this is a time when you tell about a thing that happened to you once. Not in graphic detail. Yeah, but maybe you dated the quarterback in high school or maybe you dated the coolest guy in the band in college. I don't know. But suddenly you found yourself on a date and this guy wanted more.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And this is when your daughter's eyes will get real big. But she'll begin to see you as a person and then she gets to see you. What have you done? You did the next right thing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you telling her, yep, grandma did this thing with a, with the minister of the church. And maybe he got fired, maybe he didn't. Maybe you get to see, sometimes men in powerful positions get to keep their jobs and it's the women who get shamed. And it shouldn't be that way, but that's the way it is sometimes.

[Caller]

Well, yeah, that's a little bit how it played out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It usually does that way. Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah. Unfortunately, he was not able to continue as a pastor. But then my mom was the one who carried the weight, apologizing to the entire church community.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Exactly right, Tester Prince. She's, she's the one that seduced the poor pastor.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's evil. It's evil.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. It's evil. But that's, but that's, that's the role. And good God almighty, there's not a more important conversation for you to have with your daughter right now.

[Caller]

Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately we've also seen it play out in our own church, of course, with another faith, another family.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so maybe telling her, there are really great people and great, amazing leaders at churches and also there are some not good ones.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I want a 15 year old to immediately default to her judgment. That's, that's what 15 year olds are supposed to do. Right. They're supposed to be all balls of emotion. Right. Just fireballs of, oh my gosh, you're the worst. You're the best. They're supposed to all be like, that's the way it is. But I want you to be able to say, grandma made this huge mistake and I don't know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 25 years ago. And she's been an amazing woman of character since then. And she's right now the best mom I could ever have. She's the best grandma I could ever have. Or best grandma you could ever have. But that's why we're going to say facts of your friends and calm is contagious. So when she goes, oh my gosh, you'll be able to say, hey, she's an amazing woman. She screwed up. And when the whole community turned on her, she held her head up high and she did. Not even the next right thing, just the thing that the, the unsupportive community demanded of her. And then might be a good time to talk about maybe your dad was an amazing guy who stuck by her.

[Caller]

He was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So she gets a context of everybody screws up. Sometimes screw ups become very public. And sometimes screw ups. The. The consequences of. Of the mess up one person carries disproportionately often in faith communities, the woman carries it more than the man does.

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And by the way, if you haven't processed this, you need to do that too.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Were you a little girl when this happened?

[Caller]

I was 19.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, geez.

[Caller]

And I watched it happen for a couple years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you telling your 15 year old daughter. I was about your age when this all happened. And I learned at a young age to not say anything. I kept quiet, I didn't question things. And I watched my poor mother get dragged through the ringer. And I want you to know right now, never don't ask the question.

[Caller]

But.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think you can be. I'm trying to think if I was in the exact same situation here, other than very graphic. They would sneak behind in. In the pastor's office. By the way, I've had that conversation with people before or when dad was out of town, the pastor would come over for a quote unquote church visit and they would like outside of very graphic specifics. A 15 year old is old enough to know about everything.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But more important, you are 19. You're about this. Her age.

[Caller]

Mm.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you learned anything from. About sexual fidelity, about I'm never gonna see something in my life and not say something, if any of those kind of things, that this is a great moment to teach her right now.

[Caller]

Yeah. And telling her I learned a lot.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And what an amazing opportunity to not let that anything be wasted with that thing that happened when you were 19. This is a way to continue to make all things new. This is changing your family tree.

[Caller]

Right, right, right. Thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you want to be a gangster, a super gangster tonight, ask your husband to take care of bedtime. And you go to a coffee shop and you write 19 year old you a letter about what that poor girl experienced. How if you could go back and if you could see her right now, you would give her a huge hug and tell her that none of this was her fault. And all that embarrassment and shame that was on the family, that was on you, that you had to go to church with your head held low. Put all that in writing. And if you want to be a real gangster, read it to your daughter. Here's a letter I wrote to myself.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because teenage girls often carry a ton that nobody knows is going on.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it's Tuesday. Y' all need to have this conversation this week.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Don't let any, any more time go by.

[Caller]

It'll be good to get it off my chest.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, but don't get it off your chest and hand it to your daughter for her to carry. It's you saying, I've been carrying this big secret and we need, we need you to know you can always come to us and sometimes the thing you ask is real big and we're not going to handle it super right out of the gate and your husband can be like, yeah, that was on me. But also, you come to us with anything, we're going to tell it all to you. And it's okay for you to think back to 25 year old grandma and go, oh my gosh, how could she do that? But don't forget, grandma's amazing and she loves you. Yeah, it's both. And you could tell her part of being an adult is carrying the both in the. And.

[Caller]

That'S true.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're pretty awesome, mom. Your husband's pretty awesome too.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And this, this doesn't come in any of the parenting manuals, which I'm, I hate for us all. But yeah, we're gonna go right through this one with a 15 year old. If you have a 7 year old and they're asking the same question, we're not going to give near the level of detail. We're going to say something like, yeah, 25 years ago, grandma made a mistake. We're not, we all make mistakes. Hey, what do you want for dinner? Right? And we're going to acknowledge it, we're going to own it and we're going to go on to the next thing and we're going to let their questions guide our responses. Unless we know they know something and they're just not asking questions, then we're going to approach them, we're going to put on the table because we're adults and that's what we do. We can handle that. They can't. But 15 years old, haven't heard some things. Yeah, she's old enough. And by the way, she's experiencing some of this on the periphery, sexualization, weird boys, Internet, all that stuff. And as we're increasingly moving to a world where you can just get any answer in any response, digital relationships. We're going to teach her right now. I'm always a safe place for you to come ask hard questions. I'm going to tell you the truth. Even when it's hard. Even when it's hard. You're awesome. Best of luck to you. I would love to know how this conversation goes. So if you would do me a huge favor and write us back and we don't have to read the response online, but I just want to walk alongside you guys as y', all, as y' all have this conversation and the ones that will follow. By the way, this will be conversation one. I'm sure there'll be more questions coming and if y' all ever need anything, feel free to holler. I'm really honored to talk to you all. We come back, a woman asks how to cope with her death related nightmares. We'll be right back. The holidays are here and it's my favorite time of year. And it can be a challenge to just slow down and be present with all that's going on and with everything going on, I want you to ask yourself who on your list deserves a gift that will help them relax in this holiday season and into the new year? I want you to think about that person and then I want you to get them from Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets. These sheets keep you cozy without overheating, without getting you too cold. They help you sleep several degrees cooler, which is perfect for snuggling on winter nights and waking up refreshed. Cozy Earth also has something that's incredible. Listen. It's called the bubble cuddle blanket. Things like a giant teddy bear. It's great for a family movie night or for cuddling by the fire or if you're just hogging it all to yourself to stay warm. It turns every occasion into a special occasion. Cozy Earth sheets and blankets are more than just gifts. They're a way to help your loved ones relax and recharge in everyday luxury. As always, Cozy Earth products come with a hundred night sleep trial. Try them out. If you don't love them, return them hassle free. But I'm telling you, you're not going to want to head to cozyearth.com and use code DeLoney for 20 off your entire order. That's cozyearth.com DeLoney use code DeLoney. Let's go out to Memphis and talk to Sarah. What's up?

[Caller]

Sarah, hi. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. I really appreciate your time. Of course.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Thanks for calling. I appreciate your time. What's up?

[Caller]

So I'm just having a lot of death related nightmares pretty much every night and it's kind of progressed to during the day, death related anxiety and basically like thinking that I'm about to die during the day and my previous coping mechanisms that I used last time that this happened were no longer an option for me. So I'm calling to get your insight on how I might be able to work through it, especially as my work caseload increases. Because it is definitely because of my job that I have.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh wow.

[Caller]

Any of these issues.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What's your job?

[Caller]

I'm a death investigator for the medical examiner.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, you're, you work at the, the Emmy's office. Very cool. Yes, the medical examiner. Sorry. Jeez. Yeah, so there's that. I will, I will tell you, Sarah, having shown up, I can't count how many homes I showed up to where people had passed away or died. Natural causes, self inflicted violence, whatever, car wrecks, whatever the job. I never understood how people could do was the Emmy.

[Caller]

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like it makes it compounded and it's probably going to sound morbid to say, but this is actually my dream job that I worked for.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Absolutely.

[Caller]

For my whole life.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, totally.

[Caller]

So that also adds to it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So for people who don't know, here's how this works. Let's say somebody calls 911 and they walked home and their 80 year old husband has just had a, a cardiac event. They've had a heart attack and they've died in their home or they got home or they got a call from a roommate that a 22 year old has died by suicide. Or you get a call from a screaming mother that her 4 year old is choking and has just passed away. Like the whole gamut. Right. The police show up. Hopefully if you're in a well resourced community, folks like me would show up. Like those who are here to help with the psychosocial part of this. Like the, here's what you do next. And the, the, the crisis counselors. Right. The, the victim services unit, which I was a part of will show up and sit with you. And then the white van shows up. Do you all have a white van in Memphis, Sarah?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so the white van shows up and here's what the white van does. The white van has usually two people in it and their job is to get the actual body out of the house after all the photographs are taken, after all of the investigation part is done. And by the way, police show up at these scenes no matter what it is. And they work at homicide back, right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so they want to make sure there's no foul play. They work it back. Sometimes it's really easy to tell and sometimes it's a little more complicated. But you, Sarah, and your team show up in the middle of the night, 2am, 4am, Christmas Day, whenever. And you all get the body out of the house and into the van and down to the morgue or to a holding place. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Ugh.

[Caller]

Yeah. And for my job, it's. I'm not simply just removal. I'm the one who takes the pictures. I'm the one who interviews the witnesses about what happened. I'm the one who writes the report. If there's a video of the death happening, I have to watch the video and write it down for the doctor to read. So, yeah, I'm intimately involved. They call us, like last responders because we're the last ones to show up.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. And can I. If you are particularly sensitive and you're listening to this, just hit the little pot, the little 15 or 30 second pass button while on this. And I'm gonna ask you this, Sarah, directly. You've got experiences where you're taking photographs of really graphic images, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've got. You've had to photograph children, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've had to photograph really grisly scenes, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And those will burn a hole in your spirit. Right.

[Caller]

Honestly, that's the part about this that confuses me because. Doesn't bother me in the moment. That's what makes me feel bad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No.

[Caller]

I think that makes me good at my job.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It makes you amazing at your job.

[Caller]

It doesn't bother me in the moment. And I. It is my dream to help figure out what happened to these people and write the last chapter of their story. But even though it doesn't bother me in the moment and I don't struggle to do my job, I guess when I come home.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Caller]

My brain holds on to the things I see and then I dream about them at night.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So here, the title of the book says everything by Dr. Van der Kolk. The body keeps the score. And I'm with you. I don't know why. If I go buy a house, when I sit down and I'm signing the paperwork to buy a house, I am in full fight, orf flight, total panic mode. I come up with every scenario about how I'm gonna not be able to pay off this house and my kids are going to be starving in the street, I go bananas. But if I walk into a house and there's four people who have just been shot and killed, like, I can do that just fine. Some of the. And this is awful to say, some of the hardest laughing I've ever done in my life to the point that I had to go outside because I was laughing so I was going to throw up was in those homes. And it makes you feel insane, right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because. Because you have to have a really dark, black hole sense of humor to get through those situations. Or some people get really stoic and really clinical. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And how you have to have defense mechanisms. And that's what makes you really awesome at your job. That's what made me good at my job. And our bodies keep the score. And I don't know about you, but I've gone to some crazy, grotesque, violent situations, just out of body experience situations. And it's all good. Fine. Talking, laughing with the cops, helping move bodies, taking pictures, cleaning up scenes. And it's when I get home and I lay in bed that my heart starts racing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or I crash dead asleep. And it's when you wake up, you're like, there's no way that just happened. Right. And for you, it's nightmares.

[Caller]

Yeah. Pretty much. Very vivid ones. I have a vivid imagination, Correct?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right. All right, so here I'm going to give you a couple of things to do, and I want to tell you at the outset. Okay. I want more people like you being willing to do this kind of job. The way you just said that was so poetic and beautiful. I want to be the person who will write an honorable last chapter for a person. What an amazing heart you have.

[Caller]

Oh, thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And my fear for somebody like you is that sense of, I'm gonna find beauty in the ugliest. If you're not careful, you will burn out like a flame. Right. Like, like, like a flash. And you'll have to go do a dumb desk job, and then you'll die slowly inside because you were put on earth to sit in people's ugly mess. Right.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I. I work with people who are, like, past that point.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I. I see, like, what I could become.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Caller]

And I just don't want to end up, like, losing my soul to this job.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Caller]

But I also love this job.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Awesome. All right, so here's one thing that I want you here. The. The big picture is you have to have an unflinchable. Don't care how tired you are. I don't care how awful the scene you just came from or honestly, how benign the scene. What just came from. Right. Because you've also shown up to houses. The person was 65. They were 300 pounds overweight. It's like a natural cause and effect here. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah. Those happen all the time. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I want you to honor those the same as when you're photographing the kid who just died from SIDS, who's 2, and the mom is screaming in the next room. Both of them. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. I always try to do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I want you to have a unflinchable, unshakable routine or practice for what happens after you hit send on that final report. This is a thing I do every time because here's what's h will happen. Your body will. Will attenuate to. We can cycle this trauma through because I don't care how good you are at showing up to your job. And by the way, this happens for surgeons. This happens for preachers, this happens for attorneys, this happens for nurses, anybody who works in the messy pain therapist of other people. Okay? You have to have a process that you do every single time. Every time. And it's annoying, but it's a part of the job. It's an essential part of the job. Okay? Here's what that might look like for you. This has been a great help to me is writing. It can be 10 sentences, it can be three pages, writing a letter to the person who just died. And it. It can be on a yellow. I would recommend it not be typed out. I'd recommend you handwrite it. And there's a whole bunch of research about why that's important. But I want to connect your physiology, your body to the processing of this thing because you're good at shutting off the. Your mind, right? You're good at burying emotions, but bringing those emotions back through your body through just a simple act of writing. Dear Susan, I just finished writing the last chapter of your life. It was such an honor that I got to be a part of the last bit of your story. Here's what I want you to know. I saw six people tattooed up, bald headed dudes crying in your living room. Which tells me you are a person. People they could count on. Dear Timmy two year old, I was just a part of your last chapter and I made sure your mom had somebody to hug. She's going to miss you so much. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay. I could do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, I know. It's gonna be just you. Hearing that is hard, right? Because here's what you're doing. You are consciously letting your body feel this thing and use its own innate processes to metabolize what you just experienced. Okay?

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can keep these in a secret folder that's only yours. And by the way, I think legally speaking, I would write at the top of that folder, private notes. That way they're not subpoena subpoena or anything like that, but I would write them by hand so they're not in a computer anywhere. And this is you processing. I used to set mine in a fire, but I was always having fires in my house. Like I always had A fireplace was awesome. And so I would always put them in there. That was part of my little ritual. But I let him go.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, here's the second part. You have to have a yoga practice, a walking practice, an exercise practice of some sort. And when you go, when you go on this, I want you to be very intentional about the following. I see the trees. That tree has 17 branches low. I'm counting cracks on the sidewalk. Look at that sunset. And the colors are orange and red and pink and purple and. Or it is pitch black outside. I'm going to count street lights. And what you're doing when you do that is you're bringing your body back from what it's starting to spin out and plan for your future death and reverse engineer it to. I'm okay right here, right now. This is done best with skin to skin contact.

[Caller]

If.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you married?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. If you just got up in the morning. Because also, how about this? Have you ever gone to do a thing at 2am you come home at 4:30 and you get back in bed for 45 minutes and then your husband gets up and he's like, what's up?

[Caller]

And you're like, yeah, that happens every day.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Exactly. Mine too. I used to. I used to be having coffee and my wife would be like, hey, can you get so and so. And I would look up at her and be like, I would never say anything. You have no idea what I just did last night.

[Caller]

None.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

In fact, I would get home and get back in bed and my wife hadn't even moved.

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so here's the thing you probably learned, like I did. I can't just use my, my wife. You can't use your husband as a trash bin to dump all of this on.

[Caller]

Yeah, I don't want to do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But if you keep secrets, you're going to put a huge wedge in your marriage. I did that and it almost cost me my marriage because I realized I created a whole life that my wife wasn't a part of. Which meant my need for connection began to not involve her. And I did that. I started out as a way to protect her, but saying, hey, I was out last night. I need you to take a 10 minute walk with me and we're going to hold hands and we're going to point out five beautiful things on the walk.

[Caller]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And here's the third thing. When you wake up in the morning or right before you go to bed in the morning, there's research on nightmares where right when you wake up after a nightmare, you have a small journal by your bed and you write six or seven sentences, but you take that nightmare and you end it well. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to honor my body. Your body's just trying to get your attention and you're at the early stages, if you're not there already, of a pretty anxious sea life. I want you to honor that anxiousness by going directly through it on a plane sometimes. That's breathing exercises. Most people listen to podcasts on planes. You know what? I listen to binaural beats because I have a meditation practice because I don't like flying. Occasionally I'll watch John Wick or whatever on the, on a movie, like, right, that's fine. But like most of the time I'm pretty spun up and I have big headphones on that signal to the world, don't talk to me. And I exhale and breathe through it. And it usually takes me about three minutes now because I do it all the time and I'm through it now. I let my body know we're okay right now here. And I chose to get on this plane. If it goes down, there's nothing I can do about it.

[Caller]

Yeah, nothing at all.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's the bargain I made. And it's probably not going to go down, but you can only critically think like that. When your body is not spinning out in fight or flight, when your body's not trying to get your attention about a threat right now and it's having a process, it is honoring those people. Not only you honoring them, but think of writing them a letter as a way of them honoring you. It's them saying, thank you for being there for the last chapter of my life.

[Caller]

I don't know why, but that makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It does because. Because you have worked really hard to divorce your emotions from the person in front of you. And when you're on scene, you have to do that. A surgeon cannot be thinking while they're cutting. This is a four year old little boy. They can't. They have to think trachea, trachea, trachea, heart. That's the only way they can get through it.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then the surgeon needs to exhale if the kid makes it and say, write themselves a quick note. Dear Tom, it was an honor that I got to work on you today. I've given you a new lease on life. My hope is you use that new lease on life or Timmy. I did my absolute best today and you didn't make it. I'm going to live my life 5% more adventurous because I got another life to live now. And that's yours too. And I want you to know I hugged your mom and I held your dad while you wept. If you don't break that wall, your body will break it for you.

[Caller]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or you'll be like. You'll be like some of your ME colleagues who are way overweight, who are completely burned out. They have no emotion for themselves, their kids, their spouses, life. And you know those guys who get three double cheeseburgers on the way to a scene and they stop at Taco Bell on the way home and they watch Netflix till they pass out.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's not the life I want. I. I want you. Can I be honest? I want you to be the person that shows up when I die. Because I can tell by your heart and spirit you will honor my wife and my kids.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah. I always try to do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I can tell by your spirit you're gonna make sure that if I was doing something stupid, nobody knows about it. I'm just kidding. I know you gotta write down the whole report.

[Caller]

Well, I gotta write it down.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know you gotta write it down. Right.

[Caller]

I'll be tactful about it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go. There you go. But your body is keeping track of all of this, whether you consciously are or not. And I want to say, thank God that your body loves you enough to try to keep you safe too.

[Caller]

That's true.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And when you bust open in the middle of the night, and this is for anybody suffering from nightmares, if you bust awake in the middle of the night, I was falling or I was about to drown. I'm going to finish that story right there. And then the guy from EMS showed up, unhooked my husband, or he unhooked me. I reached over and I hooked my husband. My husband grabbed me and we swam to surface and we got big gulps of air and we smiled because we made it. Thank you, body and mind and spirit, for trying to keep me safe. I'm good now. And I'm going to put my foot under the covers and I'm going to touch my husband's foot. Skin to skin contact. I'm going to go right back to sleep. And the research tells me that nightmares begin to slowly dissipate. They don't go away forever, but they slowly lose their power over you. Because your body knows. Oh, she's in control. You are. You are a modern day Saint Sarah. People who walk into Messi to bring light and define beauty. My God, we need more of you in the world. I'm grateful for you. My prayer for you is you do the things to take care of you and your marriage so that you can do this long term. Because we need people like you. Thank you so, so much for the call and thank you for the work you're doing. We'll be right back. I want to talk to you about home security and my friends at Cove. Cove is a smart, affordable home security company with the mission of helping you protect your family. For less than a dollar a day, the holidays can make your home a target for thieves and porch pirates. But Cove cameras stream live video and audio directly to your control panel and your phone so you can see and hear what's happening in real time. That kind of clarity and control over your home can help you have peace of mind, especially when you're away traveling for the holidays. Cove lets you customize your security system with a quick online quiz so you only get what your home actually needs, not a bunch of pushy salesmen and women trying to sell you extra stuff that cost you a ton more that you'll never use. Cove setup is simple. You can do it yourself. It usually takes about 30 minutes and every system comes with a 60 day risk free trial. December is the perfect time to protect your home with COVID Right now, Cove is offering an exclusive holiday sale for my audience. Visit covesmart.com and use code Deloney at checkout for up to 80% off your first order. 80%. It's the easiest decision you're gonna make this year. Go to Cove C o v e covesmart.com and use code Deloney. All right, we're back. Let it rip. Kelly, what's up?

[Kelly]

All right, so we got an email, follow up email from a caller that I wanted to read. So back in March of 2022. So, dang, Gina, it has been a minute. We had a woman that was considering. She was single and she was considering using a sperm donor to have a baby. Okay, okay. And in the conversation, a lot of it came through talking about her getting some counseling, kind of, there was a lot of. Kind of what? What was causing her to want to go into this without A partner. You know, just looking at the. At the reasonings behind it and kind of what was she trying to fill with some trauma and stuff like that. So we got an email from her.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did I give her a good answer?

[Kelly]

You did.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kelly]

She's. Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're good. Okay, good.

[Kelly]

Especially back then, because it was only a couple of years ago.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I didn't know what I was doing back then.

[Kelly]

You know, it was rougher back then. All right. So she said my segment was. Was single and considering a sperm donor. At the end of the call, John said, when I actually have a baby, to please send him the photo. And I said that I would. During the call, John made me promise to call a new counselor. Following our call, which I did. In March of 2022, I began working with a new counselor that walked me through healing my past relationship traumas. Then I met my husband in August of 2022. We got married in May of 2024 and now are parents to a sweet baby girl, which we are putting a picture of. So if your list or watching, you can see this. I truly believe calling into the show was the stepping stone to healing that I needed. And I wanted to thank John, and it honestly changed the direction my life was going. So little baby Sloan Alice was born on July 24th.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, dude.

[Kelly]

And I told her so whenever she sent me, the email was the show after you and I had a conversation about the name Sloan and what a cool girl name that was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I do have a.

[Kelly]

Like, I know I have a thing. And I told her that. I said, you're not going to believe this, but literally yesterday, John and I had a conversation about what a cool girl name that was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's the coolest. Yeah. I don't know why. I just think if you're a girl named Sloan, you are awesome, and you're gonna have a cool sleeve tattoo and you're gonna drink beer out of a bottle, and you're gonna be the coolest.

[Kelly]

She's only a few months old, so maybe not yet fair, but. But she's obviously going to be a cool girl.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's so awesome.

[Kelly]

So we are posting a picture of Sarah, Chris, and Sloan and just so very happy for them all.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Dude, look at. Look at us. Look at that. I. I don't. I don't want to take credit for anything, but, like, good on you for doing the healing work. Good on you for getting back out there. Good on you for meeting that guy. Dang Gina. And good for little baby Sloan. Oh, my gosh. That's awesome. I'M gonna smile all day because of that.

[Kelly]

Yeah. That was one of my favorite ones that I've gotten. It was just so great to see that. And I was so happy to be able to. I asked her, I do have her permission, by the way, to share the photos. I did ask.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I am going to be happy all day about that. Love that I don't know anybody who doesn't have the tension, whatever it is, the conflict and turn and face it, especially when you need get with the right professionals to walk through it that isn't glad they took that journey. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Well, Kelly, you just made my whole day.

[Kelly]

That's probably never been said by you, so I think we should end on that note.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I will stop talking and just let this one be a first. A first. Love you guys. Bye.