Dr. John DeLoney (3:45)

If you don't mind me asking, and feel free to just pass on this question. Was the person that abused you or the people that abused you, were they inside your home or were they guests to your home?

Andy (3:58)

They were inside the home.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:59)

Okay. Has there been justice there or have you sat with a therapist and worked through some of that?

Andy (4:08)

I have been working with a counselor on that, on that issue. When it comes to the touch thing, I mean, like in the present, you know, grieving that, we haven't dealt with that a whole lot. I've actually kind of been reluctant to.

Dr. John DeLoney (4:26)

Tell me about that.

Andy (4:29)

Because I figure that I won't like the answer. There's a. I don't want to have to accept that this is the way it is, you know, Tell me about.

Dr. John DeLoney (4:45)

That resignation because you, you've already, you're paying, you're sitting in front of a therapist and you're scared to ask a question because in your mind you've already created the answer and then you've already pre grieved and felt that answer. And I wouldn't give you the answer that you're afraid of getting. Tell me about that.

Andy (5:07)

What's the question again?

Dr. John DeLoney (5:09)

Well, so you're, you've already resigned yourself, right, to asking a question that terrifies you, which is, what do I do about being in my 50s, having never had a long term romantic partner, this devastating sense of loneliness and at our core, this sense that you've had from early, early on, a, we don't touch. Love doesn't require touch. In fact, love avoids touch as well as somebody or some people are going to take touch and weaponize it. And so like, and then you think that the answer is going to be, yeah, that's just the way that's going to be. You're in your 50s and you're just not going to have it. And I don't think that's true. And so I'm wondering where the resignation comes in because here's what usually happens. People who are starved from touch and people who are sexually abused. Usually, not always, but goes one of two ways. I will reclaim my sexuality. I will go in a desperate search for touch. I'll find it everywhere from anyone, right? Or I'm going to continually lock down and lockdown and lockdown. And I find myself in my 50s surrounded by a bunch of stuff that hasn't filled that gap for me. And this piercing sense of loneliness.

Andy (6:36)

I.

Lynn (6:37)

Think.

Andy (6:40)

I don't know, I just, I feel like in bringing it up with my counselor, like you say, I've already. I just feel like that it's not something that, I don't know, maybe I feel broken with. Maybe I feel like I'm messed up in some way that just. That nobody would want to touch me.

Dr. John DeLoney (7:00)

Yeah.

Andy (7:03)

You know, and by touch, I mean, I think I'm being clear in this, but I'm not talking about sexual touch. You know, I'm just, you know, the arm around the shoulder that somebody's not afraid to leave there for a while or, you know, stuff like that.

Dr. John DeLoney (7:19)

Andy, can I. Man, let me just tell you, you are not broken in any way, shape, form, or fashion. You're like, I'm going to tell you, man, your body's working perfectly because touch as a child took everything from you. It took innocence, it took wonder, it took sensuality from you. It was stolen and used for somebody else's good. And on top of that, there was no other, what I would call good touch. There was no dad that hugged you and even when you were too big, right. And put your face up against his chest and said, I'm glad you're my son. And there was no mom that was always scratching your back and hugging you and grabbing you on the face and looking you in the eye and say, I'm so glad I got picked to be your mom. That didn't happen. So, one, you've got it weaponized. And two, there's no model. It. It makes perfect sense that your body is both, A, apprehensive of any touch, B, desperately wishing for it. And see, there's no map to go get it because the people that were supposed to give you that map stole it from you. You're working perfectly, my brother. The question is, do you want to. And it's going to be an electric fence. Do you want to wade through an electric fence, climb over an electric fence, and deal with the discomfort and the anxiousness and the fear to get to the other side, where touch becomes more of a regular part of your life. Or do you want to stay where it's uncomfortable, but it's safe?

Andy (9:00)

It's a struggle to not just want to stay where it's uncomfortable, to say, I can't.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:04)

I can't even imagine. But that's the two. That's. I rarely say this. Those are the two paths in front of you. And I won't. I won't be mad at you. I won't fault you for either of them.

Andy (9:17)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (9:19)

But I don't want you to sit there assuming that you're Broken. I think your body's working perfectly for what was laid out for it. Tell me. Go ahead.

Andy (9:30)

Oh, go ahead.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:30)

I was gonna tell me about.

Andy (9:31)

I just.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:32)

Tell me about any romantic attachments you've ever had or desires. Have you ever desired or have you just pretty much the idea of being sexual. Somebody. The idea of, of being romantically intimate with somebody is just too much.

Andy (9:44)

So in college years, early twenties, you know, I. I did some dating. And honestly.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:55)

Male or female?

Andy (9:58)

Female.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:58)

Okay.

Andy (10:00)

And so from one thing, it also felt like it would be impossible to be sexual. And so that was one of the. That was obviously a turn off with it. I. I mean, I just. Even when I was so called dating, there just was not physical touch between us. I just did not want to touch. And since you brought it up, I'll feel free to go there. My primary attractions have been towards men. And because of my Christian beliefs, I. I've chosen to not go that route. And I'm at peace with that. You know, I mean, that's not what I'm, you know, not what I'm calling about.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:49)

You don't have you, you don't owe me any apologies.

Andy (10:52)

Yeah. Just gives you a little more context.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:55)

Yeah.

Andy (10:56)

And that also makes it a little bit tougher for me to trust. Makes me have more fear when it comes to, you know, like hugging buddies and stuff like that because I'm afraid of what they will think.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:10)

Gotcha. Often that fear is a fear that they're gonna dislike you and be grossed out by you and in some levels, hate you as much as you dislike yourself.

Andy (11:29)

Yeah, it makes sense.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:32)

And so let me tell you, like, for whatever it's worth, there's jerks everywhere. But most of the time those fears are in our own hearts and minds and in your case, in your nervous system.

Lynn (11:48)

And.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:50)

What I would suggest to you is part of the healing journey will be giving other people the opportunity to find out what an amazing guy you are. And I'm married to a woman. I hug my male friends regularly a lot. I need that. I tell my male friends I love them with regularity. In fact, I over say it. And quite honestly, they over say it too. And I'm all tattooed up. I'm from Texas and I go hunting. I got an elk tag this year. Right. I mean, it's like it. All the stereotypes, it doesn't matter. And if you have made peace with your romantic interest and your faith beliefs, man, good on you. But I also want you to be honest about. And I'll just tell you the need for human touch is so powerful. It's grounding, it's connecting. So can I give you a couple of thoughts just right off the top of my head?

Andy (12:54)

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:55)

Okay. This is going to be number one, and this is one I wish wasn't true. But I'm just going to not ignore the science. Okay? You've probably heard me making jokes and making fun of some of my friends publicly and all that. Um, if you haven't already, getting a dog can be a magical step in the right direction.

Andy (13:16)

Okay? So this is really funny because initially in my question I was actually going to add a sarcastic, you know, so should I just get a dog a.

Dr. John DeLoney (13:25)

Yes, absolutely. Okay. You can go get a rescue dog. You can get one of those designer rich people dogs that, that God never intended to exist, but that we just made him some sort of poodle plus whatever. Yes, absolutely. Because that will give you two things, three things. Number one, it does give you touch. It's not human touch, but it is touch. And the research says they are an amazing substitute. I wish that wasn't the case. It just is, okay? And by the way, I give my buddies a hard time when they call themselves pet parents and nonsense like that. I, I have three dogs that I.

Andy (14:04)

Love a lot, okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (14:06)

And I don't talk about them very much, but I do. I got one little turd squirrel looking dog that's about the size of, of a fart and it's awesome. And I've got two other dogs that are big and goofy and one of them's off Craigslist for 50 bucks. Like, they're, they're great, okay? But they'll give you touch. But the other thing they'll give you is a, a much needed sense of responsibility. And the, the, the catch 22 with relationships is you can't find out how deep they, how deep and powerful they are until you own part of your, your end of it. And a pet, a pet can be a good foray into this thing's got to eat. This thing depends on me. And it's annoying and it's frustrating and your dog will poop in the house and if you get a puppy, it'll pee everywhere for a while until you. Part of that frustration and training and all that. That's a part of the deal.

Andy (15:03)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:03)

Okay. And here's the third thing you're going to learn over time that you are lovable and you don't like yourself. You don't think people of your same faith tradition like you, your parents prove to you you aren't lovable. Whoever abused you, stole from you your lovability. And a goofy old dog that cannot wait till you walk in the door will be a baby step in that direction. Okay?

Andy (15:36)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:36)

So I would tell you before the week's over, get off Google and just go walk your local shelter. I don't. I don't think Craigslist exists anymore. So I don't even know. But find, Find a dog and get some support. Now here's the next thing I'll. I would absolutely recommend, if it's financially feasible at all, that you sign up for some behavioral classes with that dog. And here's what that will do. It'll put you in a room with other people trying to figure out their goofy dogs too. And they'll look at you, y' all will laugh together, y' all will be frustrated together. They'll cheer you on in a way. And I know this because my Craigslist dog is dumber than a box of hammers. And it's just part of the deal. Go to dog parks and what you'll do is you'll begin to have a reason, or for lack of better terms, an excuse to go be around other people.

Andy (16:33)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (16:33)

Okay, here's the third thing. I want you to stop keeping secrets from your counselor and talk about your fear of touch. Because there's some. There's some things that will be terrifying for you. Like joining a ballroom dancing class where you just sign up to have a partner and you'll dance and then you switch partners and then you switch partners or square dance in class. Something silly, but it puts you in context in relationship with other people where touch is a cornerstone of it. And here it's going to sound crazy, but it will allow you to begin to practice being touched without fear that people are going to look at you and, and see something that they don't like about you.

Andy (17:22)

Yeah, it makes sense.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:23)

Your body has to learn that. It wasn't safe then, but it is safe now. That's that. Touch meant pain, touch meant theft, touch meant abuse then. It means love and care now. And you're worth being hugged, my brother. And you're worth sitting down at a table for dinner with other people. And quite honestly, I'd love to have a guy like you around to take my son out. Like, just to have like a 15 year old with another man in his life that y' all can go get pancakes and he can learn lessons from another guy. Like, you're worth being involved in people's lives. And I know that sounds terrifying and scary. And a goofy dog may go a long way. You just gotta promise you're not gonna become one of those dog people that never wants to interact with a human, because a dog will love you in ways that humans just simply can't. There's that old saying, wanna know who loves you more, your wife or your dog? Put them both in the trunk for a few hours and see which one's happy to see you when you open the trunk. Right? That will. That will be true. That will be true. And it can be a gateway drug to human connection. And you're worth every bit of it. I'm grateful for your call, my brother. You call me any, any time. Blessings. Good man. We come back. A woman asks how to tell her daughter she can't help with the wedding because she can't stand fiance. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Most of us are guilty of over sharing with the wrong person at one time or another. Or maybe you're like me and you're just a bit of an oversharer all the time. Let's be honest, our entire culture is based on oversharing. And everyone is giving everyone else advice on what they should be eating and what their mental and emotional health should look like. Some of this advice may be good, but. But a ton of this advice is nonsense. And as fun as it can be to talk about everyday stuff with everyone all of the time, when you need help with your relationships with anxiety, depression or other clinical issues, regular people, especially people just all over the Internets, may not have the right answers. You need real guidance from a licensed therapist who follows a strict code of conduct. And that's why I recommend reaching out to my friends and at Better Help. BetterHelp is the largest online therapy provider in the world, and that means no matter what you're facing, chances are BetterHelp has someone who specializes in exactly that challenge. And BetterHelp is totally online, which means it's easy to fit therapy into your busy schedule. To get started, you just answer a few simple questions, nothing weird or scary, and they will connect you with a licensed therapist who fits your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. BetterHelp has been matching people with therapists for over 10 years, and their 4.9 rating shows that they usually get it right. Find the right one with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com DeLoney all right. Hey. Take two seconds. Please, please, please, please. We just crossed 800 million views on YouTube. 800 million. And only a fraction of you all have. Hit the subscribe button, please. Hit the subscribe button. Take two seconds on YouTube or if you're listening to us on Spotify, on Apple podcast, wherever you're getting this on Google Play, take a second and hit the subscribe button. It makes a difference in so many ways. Thank you so, so much for being in our gang. Let's go out to Tampa, Florida, and talk to Lynn. What's up, Lynn?

Lynn (21:11)

Hey, John. Thanks for taking my call. Oh, my gosh.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:13)

Thanks for calling.

Lynn (21:14)

Awesome. Yeah, thank you so much. Well, I'll get right into it here. So my question was, how do I tell my daughter that I don't want to participate in her wedding events because I just don't like the guy that she's marrying? A little bit of backstory. Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:30)

Hey, hold on. Is it.

Lynn (21:31)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:31)

Is that the first time you said that out loud?

Lynn (21:35)

Yes.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:35)

Okay. I sit with that for a second. How does that feel?

Lynn (21:40)

It feels good to. To say it out loud. I've. I voiced my opinion before, but, you know, it's. The wedding is going to continue, but it's the first time. Me phrasing it and the way that was just very to the point with how I feel.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:55)

Okay, so does it empower you or does it make you go. I don't know if my answer is right, if my decisions right.

Andy (22:01)

It may.

Lynn (22:03)

It makes me feel like a jerk.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:06)

Oh, man. Okay. I can't wait to hear the story. Tell me more.

Lynn (22:09)

Okay, so a little bit of backstory. She's getting married this fall, and, you know, I don't like the guy she's marrying. I don't support the marriage, but I know I don't get a vote, and I've come to peace with that. But I am really struggling with, you know, wanting to participate in any of the events leading up to the wedding. And I don't want to be the missing mother of the bride, but I just. I don't support it. And it gives me just a sick feeling in my stomach to even think about attending the events. You know, I don't like the guy because he's a jerk, you know, And I can. I can definitely elaborate on that.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:45)

Tell me more.

Lynn (22:47)

He's a jerk. So he's. His biggest flaw, in my opinion, is he's just very emotionally immature. Can't get him to take accountability for anything. And not the fun, emotionally immature. Like cracking bad jokes at a funeral. Um, but he's. He's a screamer. He yells and screams when he doesn't get his way, you know, does a. Guilt tripping, financially, abuse of just. Just a whole laundry list of reasons that he wouldn't make a good husband right now. And, you know, looks like it's going forward and there's, you know, just not anything I can do about it.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:25)

Yeah. How old is this guy and your daughter?

Lynn (23:30)

So they're mid-20s, so definitely, you know, grown enough to make their own decisions for sure.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:35)

Sure. So tell me what you will accomplish by stepping away from all of this. From the wedding, from the procedures. I mean, from the. The pomp and circumstance from your daughter and from this marriage.

Lynn (23:53)

You know, and I don't know that I would accomplish anything besides, I'm really bad at hiding the fact that I'm uncomfortable or unhappy, and I don't want to steal the spotlight from her at all. This is her wedding day, so I've decided to go to the wedding. Just the events leading up to the wedding. I don't know if I can drag myself to be there.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:16)

Events like what?

Lynn (24:18)

You know, so things like the bridal shower, wanting help planning, you know, certain aspects of the wedding, you know, things like the parents dinner type of thing. You know, all those just the events, like, leading up to the wedding.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:38)

Okay, so let's take the wedding and let's move it off to the side for a second. Okay. And this is. This is a. Close your eyes for a second and imagine you're sitting across from a table with me and I'm making uncomfortably direct eye contact. Okay. Like we're just sitting in a diner somewhere. Okay, tell me with raw, transparent honesty, when is another time in her life when she was making decisions that you didn't like and you backed up and walked away?

Lynn (25:14)

Oh, goodness. When she moved out to go live with her dad after our divorce.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:20)

Tell me about that.

Lynn (25:22)

So I was married for 18 years and my ex husband was an addict and you know, ultimately chose being an addict over. Over his family. And, you know, when we divorced, the children were old enough to make the decision of where they wanted to go, and she chose to live with him. And I just really took a big step back and it was. It was hard. I was crushed. She. She didn't really want a whole lot to do with me or the sister that had stayed home, you know, unreturned phone calls, unreturned text messages, you know, that type of thing.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:59)

How old was your D. 16. Okay. When you think back to when you were a little girl, did mom and dad ever bail on you?

Lynn (26:14)

Oh, yeah, yeah, I had nobody. Well, I had my aunt and uncle and you know, God bless them, they raised me and they are amazing people. But my parents, Mia.

Dr. John DeLoney (26:26)

Mia, like they left you and you had to go live with somebody else or you, they were, they left you but you were still in their house?

Lynn (26:33)

No, they left me and I went to live with somebody else. I, my aunt and uncle raised me.

Dr. John DeLoney (26:37)

Okay, so imagine yourself, that 16 year old little girl, watching your dad. So let me just ask it this way or let me just say it this way because it's, it'll cut to the chase a little bit. If you and I were sitting down and we're spending a couple hours together, I would do this a little bit differently. But our time is compressed here. I would be willing to bet money that there's still a 14 or 15 or 16 year old little girl inside your chest that is wondering what was so bad about me that mom and dad left? What did I do? What was so freaking bad about me? Was I not pretty enough? Was I not nice enough? Did I not get good enough grades? And as you get older, even your language around your husband, you know intellectually that they made choices and thank God your aunt, uncle showed up. But that 16 year old that sits and lives inside your chest would do anything for a conversation with your dad to lean across the table and say, I screwed up honey, and I'm so sorry. You're always beautiful, you're always smart. And so to think about this 16 year old girl, who's your daughter, dying for an answer to the question, dad, what is so bad about me that you choose drugs, you choose drinking, you choose to leave. And we all know it's become like a psychological trope. It's like, it's like a, it's a joke, but it's kind of serious. The daughters are the ones that are going to take care of their dads in old age. Or if you haven't heard, all the guys are like, hey, you got to have a daughter, man, because your sons are going to grow up and be goofballs and you're gonna have to have someone take care of when you get old. And if a 16 year old is unfairly by the courts, given the opportunity to say, hey, who do you want to go live with? It doesn't surprise me at all that a 16 year old girl said, I need to get to the end of this thing. I'm going to Keep him alive. And by the way, as a culture, we don't let that 16 year old girl drink. We don't let her, we barely let her drive, we don't let her buy guns or we don't let her do anything because she's a kid. And the reason I'm telling you this, in this order is, or in this way is walking away from a child almost never accomplishes what we want it to accomplish. What it does is it keeps us as adults safe from our own hurts and our own pain and our own powerlessness to, to manage what happens next. And so all I'm putting out, I, I want you to hear me say, you're a grownup and you have way more context than I do. We've just been talking for a few.

Lynn (29:35)

Minutes.

Dr. John DeLoney (29:38)

But one of the things I've come to learn is walking away from a relationship is never the long term. Not never is often not the solution to keep the person that we love, that we're trying to protect safe. And so I'm wondering what an alternative vision would be. You taking your daughter out and saying, hey, I've said my peace on him. I can't love a guy that screams and yells at my daughter, but I love you. And I'll be here now, I'll be here when things get scary. And if this marriage ever gets sideways, I will be your first call. And so really I'm going to get closer to you instead of further away. And I get. If people feel like, hey, I don't want, I can't be a part of the celebration here because I feel like a fraud, I get that. And part of me says, man, you totally get that. As, as the parent and the adult, you get to make your adult decisions. And the other side of that, there's another voice in my head that says, dude, be it, be the adult. Like, take your feelings and just put them aside because your daughter's scared and she knows that she's entering into a scary situation too. That's, that's why I want to know what you want to accomplish other than to protect yourself from participating in something you know down, down the road isn't safe. And I'm wondering if your daughter's gonna. Those scary nights when he's screaming and banging into the Sheetrock and not letting her have any money or whatever. If you remember those moments when you didn't know who to call, when your husband didn't come home again and didn't come home again and didn't come home again, and if she knows I can call my mom. I can always go home if that isn't the greatest offer of love you can give her.

Lynn (31:28)

Yeah, I completely. I completely get that. And I'm. You're 100% right. And I think the thing that resonates with me is that I'm going to feel like a total fraud being there. But.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:40)

Tell me about. Tell me about the fraud. Tell me about the fraud, because I think there's another way to look at it. But tell me about feeling like a fraud while you're there. What do you mean by that?

Lynn (31:47)

I. I'm going to have to go in there with a smile on my face, like I'm happy to be there. And I'm going to have to, you know, make nice conversation with, you know, many of his family members that are also pretty awful. And it's going to be uncomfortable, and I'm going to just want to be leaving as soon as everything is over. And I don't know, I'm just looking for a place and some ideas to be able to suck it up.

Dr. John DeLoney (32:15)

Well, okay, so there. There's these. There's the suck it up. And few people on the planet hate small talk like me, dude, I'm terrible at it. I'm awkward. I make people uncomfortable during small talk. I get to mumbling and people like, what are you talking? I get it. I can't stand it, especially when I don't like people. It's. I'm the worst. The worst at it. Okay, but there's another side to it. What if you imagined your daughter when she was 6, you know, going for a walk in the neighborhood, and there's a house on the corner that has a big, scary golden retrievery kind of dog. And you're going to get real close to that daughter, and you're going to talk to her, and you're going to make eye contact with her, and you're going to smile and you're going to hold her hand when you can. You're going to put your hand on the small of her back when you can, and I'm going to be there real close to you. And one of those is, I'm going to. I'm going to hate every second of this because I got to go through all the performative people are stomping on their Marbo Reds and their suits in the middle of the church, right? And you're like, God, y' all just gross people. And then the other side of it is, I'm going to be right here by my daughter. There will never be A doubt in her mind that if she wants to turn and run, I'm right here. And one of those is a protective love. Deep, deep love. Come. What? Come. Like I will be right here. And the other one is like, woe is me. I don't want to smile with a bunch of weirdos pulling up in their Dodge Chargers and their square Kias or I don't know what they're driving. I'm just making up stories to try to be on your. Your team, right? I don't know. But do you get what I'm saying? One of those is a mission centric. I don't care who's going to be there. I'm going to be standing right by my baby girl, Even though she's 27, making a terrible choice. And the other is I'm just going to be thinking about how awkward this is going to be for me. For me yet again, leaving my daughter off by herself to fend for herself. Why I am concerned about how I feel in this moment, which is what feels like what happened when she was 16 and she made a 16 year old child decision. And you held her hostage for making a child decision? For your feelings about her choice. You get what I'm saying? You took that really personally. Instead of saying what an awful, awful moment for a little girl who's now 16, who's not legally allowed to do anything. She can't even legally consummate. She can't have sex, she can't buy cigarettes, she can't do anything. Yet she feels a sense of responsibility to go care for her dying father. What an awful position to be in. And I. God Almighty, I wish she'd chosen me. And can I just tell you, I hate that your parents left you. That sucks. I hate they walked out on you. And I hate that your husband followed some similar trajectory after 20 years of nightmarish. Is he coming home? Who's he with? Is he alive? Like all that. But I also want you to hold the responsibility to not repeat that same pattern, which is I'm going to walk away too. And sometimes.

Lynn (35:56)

Yeah, 100. 100%. Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (35:59)

No, you got it. And hey, listen, I know what I'm asking of you is insanely hard. And I guess what I would challenge all of us is to when we see a relationship with somebody that we care about and we love and we want to be well, what if we waded through so that they knew when they're ready to be safe, they're ready to change their life, they're ready to act in ways that are more healthy and secure. We will be right here. It's just a thought. Lynn, thank you so much for being brave. You're awesome. However I can help, I'll be here. And if your daughter wants to call in, I'm happy to talk to her, too. We come back. A woman asks how to find friends in this crazy, lonely world. If you're looking around at the culture and you're having a hard time knowing who to look up to, I get it. There's so much noise coming from so many different directions, and it can be hard to know who to trust, who to look up to. But there are examples of people who can teach us. And these are people who have been inspiring us with their wisdom and faith for centuries. And that's why I'm excited to tell you that one of Hallow's biggest prayer challenges is back this month. It's called Saints in Seven Days. The saints we honor aren't just stained glass paintings on church windows, and they're not Instagram influencers. They were real living people devoted to God no matter the cost. And during this challenge, you're going to learn how we can apply their faithfulness and their lives to our lives today. Saints in 7 Days also features Gwen Stefani teaching about Queen Esther, Michael Iskander from Amazon's hit series House of David, talking about King David, and many, many more. The saints aren't just stories from the past. They're real life examples for living with purpose, humility, and it gives us a picture of what genuine faith actually looks like. Join the Saints in Seven Days challenge on Hallow today. And if you do so right now, you get three months of Hallow for free. Go to hallow.com deloney right now for three months of Hallow for free. That's Hallow. H a l l o w.com sl DeLoney all right, let's go out to Indianapolis, Indiana and talk to Mary Shelley. What's up, shelly?

Mary Shelley (38:15)

Hello. Hi, Dr. John.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:17)

What up?

Mary Shelley (38:19)

How are you doing today?

Dr. John DeLoney (38:20)

Awesome. How are you?

Mary Shelley (38:22)

I'm doing great.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:23)

Perfect. What's up?

Mary Shelley (38:26)

Yeah, I was just calling in to ask how you make friends in your 20s. I've had.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:32)

I don't know. You tell me.

Mary Shelley (38:35)

I've had friends in childhood, growing up, I mean, in sports and high school, and then now. Now what?

Dr. John DeLoney (38:44)

Yeah, it's a nightmare, huh? How old are you?

Mary Shelley (38:48)

I'm 23 and I work night shift, so that makes it 10 times harder.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:53)

Oh, my goodness. What do you do?

Mary Shelley (38:57)

I work for a nursing home. Really? It's an assisted living home, so I really can't make friends there either.

Dr. John DeLoney (39:06)

You can make the best friends. They, they've got more wisdom and experience, but man, but now I get it.

Mary Shelley (39:12)

By the way, friends that want to jump off cliffs with me, you know.

Dr. John DeLoney (39:17)

Man, I almost made a few jokes there, but I'm not going to make those jokes because the Internets don't have the same sense of humor I have sometimes. Well, kudos to you for being in that service position and for anybody in their 20s who are wondering what is an AI proof job that's going to be increasingly more necessary in the coming decades. Working where you are, working in assisted living facilities and in aging care units is going to be the wave of the future. So good for you.

Mary Shelley (39:43)

Absolutely.

Dr. John DeLoney (39:46)

So here's the reality and we could just go all day long. You're not going to like my answer, and I hate giving this answer, but I'll give you some context. Since you were a little, little girl, everything was, when it came to relationships was curated. Like in kindergarten, everybody sit on the Cardinals sit on the red line and the bluebirds sit on the blue line. And you sat on the line and you sat around people. Right. And then you went to elementary school and you played kickball and you were either into kickball and that was your gang or you hated kickball and you had your My kitty backpack and you ironically struck out in kickball. Then those people found each other and then you got to middle school and you did tata TT or soccer or whatever. And like so everything, even through college, through sororities or people who think sororities are dumb or majors, you just get clustered and then you walk across that stage and it's like, all right, it's you versus the world. Now go get them. And even your job application, you're up. You're competing with a 40 year old. 70 year olds, 50, like it just, it's just becomes this universe, the planet. Yeah. And so we've created the loneliest generation in human history. Do you still have long text threads that are mostly memes from high school and, or early college friends?

Mary Shelley (41:11)

No, I have this good friend that we became friends after high school. We were kind of in the same group, but not really close. But we became really close after high school. But she just told me she's moving away to Ohio with her boyfriend. So my only friend that I have is now moving away. So just that alone.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:37)

Listen, you know, if I could, if I could capture that noise you just made when you went so. Right.

Mary Shelley (41:47)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:49)

Let Me suggest something, a new way of looking at it. Friends are a thing you are worth, not people who bring you stuff.

Mary Shelley (42:04)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (42:06)

And why do. I mean, why do I say it like that when you're. By the way, most of the calls and conversations I have are with 30 and 40 year olds, but it's, it's increasingly getting earlier and earlier. Okay. So good on you for addressing this early on. There's a sense that I. I have a puzzle and there's a missing piece and I need other people to come fill this piece for me in the form of friendship and. Or romantic attachment. What I want to suggest is if you begin to take apart this puzzle that you're creating for yourself and leave the pieces out and you go find people that you can create new pictures with, it keeps it from being this end of time. Like I need to find a person to fit into my puzzle because in. What ends up happening is you use other people for you to feel better.

Mary Shelley (42:59)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:00)

Versus I have an empty, wide open canvas and I want to paint some. Some cool stuff. Are you in? Are you in? Are you in.

Andy (43:10)

It?

Mary Shelley (43:10)

Yeah. Because I mainly. I hate to say it, but I mainly just look at what. Who can I do stuff instead of losing that friendship. I'm missing that body, you know?

Dr. John DeLoney (43:25)

Yeah. And in a weird way, people become a Xanax for you to not have to feel the existential angst of being. Of your quarter life crisis, about to be 25, going, what am I doing with my life? Other people, like, y' all go out and just numb out together. Which is a thousand times better than numbing out by scrolling.

Andy (43:45)

Right, Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:47)

But you can very Easily find yourself 38, like behind a bowling alley with cigarettes. Yeah, just like. That's like I just described Kelly, but like just sitting behind a bowling alley, just smoking. Right. Do. What did you say Kelly said?

Kelly (44:04)

I wish I was only 38.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:05)

Yeah. I mean, she's way, way older than 38 now. So let me ask you this. What are some things you like to do?

Mary Shelley (44:14)

I like. Really? I'm a hobbyist. I bake bread. I like to skate. I got into planting. I. I like to do anything and everything. I just, I guess I have a hard time doing things by myself.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:29)

That's not a bad thing. That's kind of awesome. But do you have a hard time inviting people into those worlds? No.

Mary Shelley (44:38)

I got skates because my friend got skates. I got plants because my mom had plants. I mean, I like to be involved. I like to watch shows that people are watching. So we could talk about it. I'm very inviting. But I feel like I get too much for the people that I do have in my life, like my mom or my sisters. I feel like I get too much for them sometimes.

Dr. John DeLoney (45:00)

Tell me about that.

Mary Shelley (45:01)

So they don't. My family is very chaotic. I live here in Indiana, they live in Illinois. It's just me and my mom here and she goes to Illinois for everything. My one sister has four kids. She just had her fourth kid and she goes there for everything. For her sister's stuff, my grandma's stuff, my sister's stuff, my. Her grandkids, I mean, just everything. So it's really hard. Like I. Me and my mom live on the same property. I have a house and she has a house. And I can do anything with my mom. She likes to go floating with me. We like to go swimming. But when she is gone, it's hard for me to say, okay, it's their time. Instead, it's always my time, you know.

Dr. John DeLoney (45:53)

Why don't you think you're worth being friends with?

Mary Shelley (45:58)

I'm not sure. I've really struggle with that. I mean, I moved schools when I was about 13. I went from a probably a hundred people class to about a thousand people class when I was 13. And it was. It was very hard.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:21)

Did you get swallowed up and just lost?

Mary Shelley (46:24)

Yeah, I really made friends with one girl. I mean, I had friends on the track team and the swim team and whatever, but I really only had one true friend. And now she's moving away. I knew she's never wanted to stay in Indiana, so she's also moved away. But I haven't talked to her since high school about four or five years ago.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:45)

I know, but you did. You did a great job avoiding my question. Why don't you think you're worth being friends with?

Lynn (46:53)

I'm not sure.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:56)

Because even when your mom goes to see her grandkids, that. That feels in your guts like abandonment.

Mary Shelley (47:05)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (47:06)

Or another way to say that you. The first question your body asks itself is well, what's so bad about me? And listening to you talk about your one friend that you put every friend egg in their basket. It's, it's, it's. It's a. I knew it. You don't want to be around me either. Or you'd rather be around that dumb stupid boy that you want to make a life with. But that comes down to a sense of self worth and, and I'll even. I'll even suggest this. I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall. So it may not stick. So tell me if I'm wrong, but you do whatever anyone else wants to do.

Mary Shelley (47:51)

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. John DeLoney (47:54)

Which begs the question, why don't you think you're worth people coming to do things that you want to do? Or have you even ever asked yourself the question, what do I actually want? What if I don't want to live in Indianapolis? What if I kind of feel like a dork skating? What if I like baking bread and all, but I'd actually like taking guitar lessons and joining a punk band? Like, what about asking, what do you want to do with your one wild and precious life?

Mary Shelley (48:28)

They really struck a nerve with me there.

Dr. John DeLoney (48:30)

I know. I could feel it on you. Let me just say it this way. To make friends in the 21st century, you have to do a few things. One, put your phones away. Two, go first. Three, go be weird. What do I mean by that? Yep, I play music with Ben with a group of guys here at the office, and I don't have time to do it. I got kids stuff. And my wife says she gets a better husband when I'm playing music with my buddies, so I go do it. My family goes to bed early, and so I hang out at a comedy club around the corner from my house. Sometimes I go on stage for 10 minutes and tell diarrhea jokes. And it's fun for me. I don't know how fun it is for the audience, but I'm making new, great friends backstage and I cheer. You see what I'm saying? But I'm putting myself in awkward situations, by the way. I'm not perfect at this. I suck at this. That's why I'm making myself do it. But it's never convenient and it's never easy. And there are nights I me, Deloney, I come home from a comedy club being like, why did you say that? That was so weird. Why are you awkward? I still do that to myself. To this day, I still do that. And I have almost 2 million followers on Instagram. None of that matters in the real world. Okay? So it's. It's about putting yourself in awkward situations. If you like to make bread, find two or three people that you kind of know. Ish. Maybe at work. Ish. Or maybe one of your boyfriend's friends. Girlfriends. Ish. And say, I'm making some bread. Bring a couple of things over and come over. I want you to help me do this. And it might be an awkward bread making experience the first time or the second time, but it might just be hilarious. And it Might be fun.

Andy (50:14)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:16)

And then. But I think your real homework assignment is asking yourself, what do I actually want to do?

Mary Shelley (50:23)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm in therapy. And our topic last week was hobbies.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:28)

Okay. Can I tell you, there's not really a good way to find out to think about a hobby. You just got to start trying stuff.

Mary Shelley (50:37)

Well, I'm trying to find something that I can do, like while I'm watching TV or something, because I picked up gardening. But you could only do so much with gardening.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:46)

Turn the freaking TV off. That's your hobby.

Mary Shelley (50:51)

Yes, that's my point.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:54)

Here's the thing. You're gonna have to find things that make you uncomfortable. And I'm telling you, when me and the. And the gang are playing music, the last thing I care about is the tv. We're just having fun, even. We're like, dude, you missed it. You totally blew it. Like, oh, man, let's go to this court here. When I'm sitting at a comedy club watching some guys that I know a little bit well or real well, or Nate Parkazzi just burst in the door and he's like, I'm do 15 minutes. And you're like, what? This is like, nobody cares about tv. I don't care about the sports scores because you're so locked in a thing. Right. Or when I'm out hunting, I could care less about tv. I'm locked in a thing. It's finding. Finding things. Trying things out piece by piece by piece. By the way, hobbies are something you kind of make yourself do at the beginning until you get good at it. And the only thing where you get good at something is by practicing it, doing over and over and over time, you get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better. And you think, dude, I freaking love this. And by the way, you run into people that you end up liking, and you have to start from a place where you believe I'm worth being friends with. And the sum total of my life isn't becoming a chameleon to all these other people, because that's the only way I feel like I'm worthy of being loved. You're worth being a girlfriend to a guy who also does what you want to do sometime or who celebrates you going to do your fun things. My wife is a writer. My wife likes gardening. It's not really my jam, but we both celebrate each other's weird stuff that we like. And your mom and your other friends, you're worth all of that, but it starts with you Looking in the mirror, saying, hey, Shelly, I like you and we're going to start an adventure trying to find things that we actually love, especially living on the other side of the screen. As Carlos, as Carlos Whitaker says. Thank you so much for the call, my sister. You're awesome. Go first, be weird and know that you're worth being friends with. We'll be right back. I talk a lot on my show about boundaries, emotional boundaries, relational, financial. But there's one boundary that almost nobody talks about. Your digital life right now. Your personal information, your phone number, your address, even where your kids go to school. It's sitting on countless websites that you've never heard of and you didn't give them permission to have that data. But it's out there. Let's be honest. It's not just annoying, it's a violation. This constant exposure of our personal data, this exposure that we don't even know where it's coming from, it creates this anxiety that just hums in the background of your life. Something always feels a little bit off. And that's why I use Delete me. Delete me goes after the data brokers and the people finder sites that collect and resell your information without your permission. They track down your information and they remove it. And every few months they send you a report showing you exactly what they've done. This is taking control of your digital boundaries. It's about peace. Go to join deleteme.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to get 20% off. That's joined deleteme.com DeLoney to save 20% off. Go right now and create some digital boundaries. All right, we are back with a money in marriage question. The November Money in marriage event here in Nashville is almost if you it may be sold out. If it's not, it's just got a few tickets left. If you want to come to Nashville, you and your spouse come to Nashville for a long weekend. It's the best marriage retreat on the planet. And then we have one Valentine's Day weekend in February. There's still some tickets left for that one. Come and see us. By the way, if you're wondering what do I get for Christmas and Valentine's Day? Get a couple of tickets for money Marriage Valentine's Day weekend. You can give the tickets for Christmas and then you've got something to do. Valentine's Day weekend. Come see us in Nashville. Me and my friend Rachel Cruz and a bunch of special guests. It's brand new stuff this year. It's going to be amazing. All right, so we have an anonymous question box during money and marriage event. And here is one of the questions that was last left at last year's event. We've been married for 25 years, and we love each other a lot, but we bicker a lot. We don't want to be the Bickersons. That's a clever way to say that. How do we stop? Kelly? What? Do you think? You and I bicker?

Kelly (55:33)

Yes, we do.

Dr. John DeLoney (55:34)

Mostly because I'm right and you're wrong a lot. No. Thus, the bickering begins.

Kelly (55:43)

Yes, mostly because one of us is delusional and one of us is more grounded in reality. But, you know, tomato, tomato.

Dr. John DeLoney (55:49)

One of us is got a young, sharp, whippersnapper mind, and the other one is you aging rapidly. Rapidly. Here's the thing. When it comes to bickering, this could feel defeatist. This could feel awful. But this is the truth. The Gottman's research suggests that 90 plus percent of most marriage fights will never be, quote, unquote, solved. They'll never be solved. They just are. She's just gonna have nose hairs and he's not gonna shave enough and he'll leave out towels and she's gonna clip her toenails during the middle of us. It's just gonna be so. There's a couple of ways to address bickering. Number one, it becomes a language. It becomes the way you communicate with each other. My wife says that she can tell what generation of friend I'm talking to by how much I swear. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I hardly ever swear around the house or anything like that. And she's like, I know, but you used to real bad. And I pick up the phone and just go boom, right into an old language. So think of bickering, especially with somebody you love and care about, you've been married to for a quarter century. It's just a language. And so what you're going to do is commit to speaking and learning a new language. One of changing your default setting. Or as the great Becky Kennedy says, like, I'm going to. I'm. I'm going to seek the most positive intent. So I'm going to try only saying nice things. Now, you know that's not possible all the time. But I'm just going to try to speak a new language. One that is. I'm always noticing positive things instead of pointing out negative things. Here's the second thing. Just don't respond. Or as Jefferson Fisher says, let your first word be a breath. Somebody walks in and goes, is that what we're having for dinner? Instead of going, why don't you make is that what we're having for dinner? Yeah, that's what we're having. I just don't have to respond to that. And it's a practice, and it takes time. Here's the third thing. Just pick up the towels. Just be a friend. Pick up the towels. If somebody's making dinner, you would never go to your buddy's house and they're making dinner for you, and you go, is that what we're having? Again, you would just be like, hey, dude, thanks for dinner. Even if it's not delicious, just go and be grateful for the dinner. Or if your buddy is over at your house and they leave towels out, you just pick up the towels and you throw them in a hamper and you move on. And so there's something about bickering where we are hoping our spouse will be something more than any human could ever be for us. And we don't expect any other person in our life, our boss, our friends, our community members to be that person. So just pick up the towels. Just go do the thing instead of barking about the thing. So those are my thoughts and opinions there. I'll say this, Kelly, you know, like. And this is me being honest. I know we're always goofy, but, like, sometimes it can be hard for me to walk from one part of this building to the other. I get stopped all along the way with a thing and then a thing and then a thing. And that can be really frustrating when there's a studio full of people in here waiting to record a show. And for a couple years, I'm trying to do a thing, and. Or I get to talking, or then my manager says, hey, you got one second, And I'm like, yeah. We start talking, and then it turns into another thing. And you'd come in really mad and be like, you suck. And I don't know what switch flipped. But you come in now and you smile and you go, would you like to do a show, John? And I'm like, oh, yeah. And. But it. It felt like there was a switch. I don't know what it was, but it's not like it's any easier for me to walk down the hall. But I felt in your spirit, like, I don't think in John's soul, he's like, I'm going to be a complete and total ass today. And just back up the whole day. I'm confident a he doesn't know what time it is B. 50 people. People just stopped him and see, he's kind of an idiot. And so I'm not going to let him ruin my day. I'm going to come smile and say you want to do a show. And what I have found is I. I appreciate that so much. I'm on time, Wayne. I don't know why, how the alchemy works, but I'm more like, I don't have time to talk to you. I'm headed in this way. Does that feel right?

Kelly (60:28)

It does. Okay. So the time I led you in here with gummy bears was.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:31)

That was pretty awesome.

Kelly (60:32)

It was pretty awesome. You threw them all at me.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:35)

That was funny. You made a trail. I did.

Kelly (60:37)

I made a trail all the way from his chair to the desk for gummy bears. But he followed.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:42)

It worked.

Kelly (60:43)

It worked. But yeah, I mean, there comes a point when it's you. It's almost like you have to worry about your self preservation of like, I just can't get this mad about this.

Andy (60:52)

Ah.

Kelly (60:52)

Every day, you know, because it doesn't work, I end up getting frustrated and.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:57)

Then I get frustrated that you're frustrated.

Kelly (60:59)

You're frustrated. Yeah. And it's just like, this is just not working.

Andy (61:01)

Yeah.

Kelly (61:02)

So let's try. Let's change tack and see how it goes.

Dr. John DeLoney (61:04)

Well, you broke the cycle, Kelly. Way to go. Appreciate that.

Kelly (61:08)

But we still bicker.

Dr. John DeLoney (61:09)

Well, it's because you're wrong a lot.

Andy (61:12)

No.

Dr. John DeLoney (61:12)

And you're old. Beautiful. You're aging gracefully, but God, you're aging.

Kelly (61:19)

Why don't we just end the show right now?

Dr. John DeLoney (61:21)

Love you guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bickering is a language. I guess that's the new sticker. Bickering is a language. Pick a different language. Maybe one that is joyful, optimistic, kind. Unless your co worker is kind of a lot. Love you guys. Bye.