My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. John Delony Show – "My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dr. John Delony Show
• Host/Author: Ramsey Network
• Description: A caller-driven show offering real talk on relationships and mental health challenges. Listeners are encouraged to send questions via voicemail or email.
• Episode: My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
• Release Date: January 20, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Dr. John Delony Show, host Dr. John DeLoney engages with three listeners—Kate, Sarah, and Stephen—who each present unique relationship and mental health challenges. The episode delves deep into Kate’s tumultuous experience with attempting a threesome, Sarah’s struggle with a neglectful marriage, and Stephen’s anxiety related to parenthood and overcoming past addictions. Dr. DeLoney provides insightful analysis, practical advice, and supportive dialogue aimed at guiding listeners through their personal dilemmas.

---

Kate’s Story: The Threesome Attempt Gone Wrong

Timestamp: [00:05] - [23:41]

Summary: Kate reaches out to Dr. DeLoney to discuss a deeply personal and complex issue involving her husband backing out of a planned threesome. Initially, Kate and her husband had been fantasizing about adding a third person to their intimate life, a desire that neither fully expected to materialize. Over time, Dr. DeLoney uncovers the emotional turmoil and breakdown of trust that resulted from their failed attempt.

Key Points:

• Initiation of the Threesome Idea: Kate and her husband had been exploring the concept in their bedroom fantasies for about four years without serious intent.

  Kate [03:37]: "It was definitely, like, just something we, neither one of us, I guess, never thought would come into a real thing."

• Unilateral Action and Betrayal: Her husband took the first step by posting her photos on a threesome website without her knowledge, leading to feelings of violation and anger.

  Dr. DeLoney [03:10]: "Whoa. Okay, that feels like a violation there."

• Attempted Affair and Emotional Fallout: Kate ended up having an affair with the intended third party, which neither she nor her husband could fully consent to, resulting in mutual resentment and emotional distress.

  Dr. DeLoney [07:43]: "Oh, y'all are gonna end up having sex together anyway, so you might as well. Y'all two do it first, and then it'll be okay for the threesome."

• Impact on Marriage: The incident exposed underlying issues in their marriage, including poor communication and Kate’s struggling mental health, culminating in frequent panic attacks and feelings of isolation.

  Kate [09:23]: "He's waking me up in the middle of the night almost every night with different questions and different things."

• Loss of Trust and Relationship Breakdown: Dr. DeLoney identifies multiple layers of issues, such as pre-existing marital cracks, loss of self-trust, and mutual betrayal, leading to the conclusion that the marriage as it stood was irrevocably damaged.

  Dr. DeLoney [11:16]: "Issue number one is you have a marriage that was already a mess... Number two, you lost trust in you."

Notable Quotes:

• Kate [02:22]: "Oh, that ship sailed, sister. The insane ship is out of the harbor."
• Dr. DeLoney [13:22]: "Which became a y'all versus the world Kind of thing."

Dr. DeLoney’s Analysis and Advice: Dr. DeLoney emphasizes the essential need for both partners to lay bare their feelings and establish clear boundaries to rebuild trust or acknowledge the end of the marriage. He suggests specific actionable steps such as:

• Reestablishing Trust: Engaging in activities together to rebuild their connection, like playing Twister, going on walks, or reading books together.

  Dr. DeLoney [15:55]: "And then you get to say, that's not enough for me. I'm out."

• Setting Boundaries: Limiting or eliminating flirty and fantasy conversations that can reignite similar issues in the future.

  Dr. DeLoney [17:37]: "Have all the fun you want. Have all the conversations you want to have... but set clear boundaries."

• Creating a New Foundation: If they choose to rebuild, they must define what their new relationship will look like and what behaviors are necessary to foster a healthy partnership.

  Dr. DeLoney [20:04]: "And I don't think your marriage is over. If you don't want it to be, and he doesn't want it to be, I think there's going to be some fumbling and stumbling around in the dark as you all rediscover who you are..."

---

Sarah’s Story: Supporting a Neglectful Husband

Timestamp: [28:32] - [43:19]

Summary: Sarah calls into the show seeking advice on how to support her husband’s personal growth while simultaneously managing her own healing process and setting realistic expectations for rebuilding their strained marriage. Her marriage of 15 years has been plagued by neglect, emotional abuse, and poor communication, especially after relocating away from their family, exacerbating her mental health issues.

Key Points:

• Initiation of Conflict: Sarah decided to confront her neglected feelings by turning off the music and illuminating her home to signify that her mental state was deteriorating.

  Sarah [29:35]: "I turned the music off and I turned the lights on and said, this is actually what's happening in our marriage and I'm not okay with it."

• Lack of Husband’s Response: Despite her brave attempt to communicate her needs, her husband responded with minimal change, leading Sarah to feel unsupported and stuck in a cycle of temporary improvements followed by setbacks.

  Dr. DeLoney [31:29]: "Most of the time people are not very specific about what I need to see happen in this house. It's usually about, here's how I feel and here's what I want..."

• Setting Boundaries and Seeking Change: Dr. DeLoney advises Sarah to set clear, actionable benchmarks for her husband’s behavior and to follow through decisively when these are not met, emphasizing the importance of specific commitments over vague promises.

  Dr. DeLoney [34:35]: "I want you to sit down with somebody and actually put a pen to paper and make an actual plan with actual numbers and exhale on that plan."

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah [30:39]: "Have you heard me say this in the last year. Behavior is a language."
• Dr. DeLoney [39:15]: "Are you done? Is this theater?"

Dr. DeLoney’s Analysis and Advice: Dr. DeLoney commends Sarah’s courage in addressing her marital issues and underscores the necessity of combining emotional expressions with concrete actions. He suggests:

• Specific Action Plans: Creating detailed plans with measurable outcomes to ensure accountability and progress in rebuilding the marriage.

  Dr. DeLoney [38:57]: "Right now you've made all these grand gestures and these statements... they don't have any action behind them."

• Establishing Firm Boundaries: Implementing strict boundaries to prevent recurring abusive behavior and to protect her mental well-being.

  Dr. DeLoney [17:54]: "[...] to have honest conversations about we don't like each other."

• Seeking Professional Help: Encouraging the involvement of counselors or therapists to guide both partners through the healing and rebuilding process effectively.

  Dr. DeLoney [40:15]: "I think it's time to get some wise counsel in your life..."

---

Stephen’s Story: Overcoming Parental Addiction and Anxiety Related to Parenthood

Timestamp: [47:38] - [61:00]

Summary: Stephen shares his anxiety surrounding parenthood, stemming from his turbulent upbringing with an addicted father and his own past battles with alcohol and cocaine addiction. Now engaged and facing the prospect of fatherhood, Stephen fears replicating his father's destructive behaviors and negatively impacting his future children.

Key Points:

• Background of Addiction and Trauma: Stephen recounts his struggles with alcohol and cocaine addiction, triggered by the death of his close friend and compounded by growing up in a household with an addicted father.

  Stephen [48:38]: "I had a friend that died when I was young. And that kind of spurred a lot of this stuff on."

• Current Engagement and Fears of Parenthood: Despite being clean for a decade and engaged for over five years, Stephen grapples with anxiety about being a good father and not passing on his familial issues to his children.

  Stephen [54:29]: "I knew that like, once I pulled that trigger, let timers counting down."

• Dr. DeLoney’s Guidance: Dr. DeLoney helps Stephen confront his fears by encouraging him to distinguish himself from his father, make concrete commitments to his future family, and actively work toward being a supportive and loving father.

  Dr. DeLoney [58:14]: "Repeat after me. I am not my dad."

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. DeLoney [58:21]: "I am not my dad."
• Stephen [59:07]: "Absolutely. Yes, sir."

Dr. DeLoney’s Analysis and Advice: Dr. DeLoney provides Stephen with actionable steps to overcome his anxiety and ensure he becomes the father he aspires to be:

• Affirmation and Separation from the Past: Encouraging Stephen to verbally affirm that he is not his father, thereby mentally distancing himself from inherited behaviors.

  Dr. DeLoney [58:28]: "I am not my dad."

• Commitment to Positive Parenting: Stephen is advised to make steadfast commitments to his future children, such as expressing love daily, maintaining sobriety, and setting clear boundaries to create a nurturing environment.

  Dr. DeLoney [59:07]: "Will you make a commitment to never making your kid feel small, even if they've got weird wacky dreams..."

• Writing Personal Letters: Dr. DeLoney suggests that Stephen write letters to his future wife and child, outlining his commitments and intentions to foster a loving and supportive family dynamic.

  Dr. DeLoney [62:31]: "I want you to write a letter to 38 year old her... and to your future kid 10 years from now."

• Facing and Letting Go of Fear: Stephen is encouraged to confront his fears directly, understanding that his children will love and respect him for his efforts to break the cycle of addiction and neglect.

  Dr. DeLoney [60:30]: "I think you're scared of your kids looking at you and thinking about you like you think about you... Let that fear go."

---

Conclusion

In "My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome," Dr. John DeLoney skillfully navigates through three distinct but interrelated stories, offering each caller tailored advice grounded in empathy and psychological expertise. Whether dealing with the fallout of a failed intimate exploration, managing a neglectful and abusive marriage, or confronting deep-seated anxieties about parenthood, the episode provides listeners with practical strategies to address and overcome their personal challenges. Dr. DeLoney’s compassionate approach underscores the importance of clear communication, setting firm boundaries, and taking actionable steps toward healing and rebuilding trust.

Notable Overall Quote:

Dr. DeLoney [21:34]: "And I don't want these kids to grow up with going to two different Christmases and two different things."

---

For those seeking further guidance, Dr. DeLoney offers continuous support through the Ramsey Network, encouraging listeners to reach out with their own stories and questions to foster a community of healing and growth.

Transcript

[Kate]

Me and my husband explored the idea of having a threesome with another man. Then he found out about me sleeping with the guy first, and I was wondering how to help him through his emotions without running us both insane.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, that ship sailed, sister. What up? What's up? This is John with the doctor. Dr. John DeLoney Show. I'm so grateful that you are with us, talking about your relationships, your marriages, who you're dating, your kids, your mental health, your emotional health. For 20 plus years, I've been sitting with hurting people. I've got a PhD in education. I got a PhD in counseling. I've been sitting with hurting people trying to help walk alongside people in messes they've created, messes that have been thrown at them, messes they've been dropped into and help people figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on this show if you want to be with us. It's real people going through real tough times. Give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to john deloney.com ask a. Let's go out to Athens, Georgia and talk to the great and powerful Kate. Hey, Kate. What's up?

[Kate]

Hi, Dr. John.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What's up?

[Kate]

I had a question for you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're already exasperated. What happened?

[Kate]

Yeah, different calling than listening.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I can't. Wait. What? What happened? I can hear. I can literally hear it on you. And when.

[Kate]

Heavy.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. All right. Swan dive in. Let's do it.

[Kate]

Me and my husband explored the idea of having a threesome with another man.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

And it turned into an affair on my part.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, she always. You went through with it?

[Kate]

Well, we tried to. And I had not told him that I had been with a guy first. And we tried to go through with it, and he absolutely hated it, and I hated it, and it was awful. And then. Then he found out about me sleeping with the guy first. And I was wondering how to help him through his emotions without running us both insane.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, that. That ship sailed, sister. The insane ship is out of the harbor.

[Kate]

Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely different. I never ever thought I would do something like that in my entire life. Like, yeah, it was out of character for me completely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So walk me back to the beginning. How did this thing get initiated?

[Kate]

So we've been kind of like, just messing around in the bedroom with it for, like, four years. Nothing we ever thought would actually come to like, be a real thing. Just something we fantasized about together. And then he. He kept. He. I ended up seeing In June that he had posted some pictures of me on a website that I just was not aware of.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Whoa. Okay, that feels like a violation there. So. So one, like, y'all are having, like, some fun, flirty in the bedroom. Like, okay, what would happen? And what would he want to look like? And would you want to be another woman or would you want to be another man? Like, so y'all are having this flirty kind of fantasy role play.

[Kate]

It was. It was definitely, like, just something we, neither one of us, I guess, never thought would come into a real thing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so then he took the first step by posting you on a website. Or did y'all both agree, like, hey, let's just go fishing a little bit and see what. Like, if we made it. If we made a fake account. I wonder if we. Who would actually want to be interested in us.

[Kate]

Well, we had talked about it, but we. I didn't know he had done it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so he went ahead, put pictures of you up.

[Kate]

Yes. I found it in June.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How'd you find out?

[Kate]

That's. I got his phone. We were. We were at the pool with some friends, and I went. Me and my friend went to the store, and he left it in the car, and I saw it whenever we drove to the store.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you're just going through a phone and you find out there's an app on it, and you're on some threesome website.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

And that was kind of. I was mad about it, but I knew we had talked about it, so I wasn't, like, as angry about it, I guess, because we had discussed it before.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so did you scream and yell and demand you take it down, or you were like, all right, well, let's see how it goes.

[Kate]

Well, we kind of just, like, we talked about it, and we kind of decided to delete the whole thing. It wasn't like an argument. It was just like a conversation. Okay, so then. But at that point, I thought he was serious because it turned into more of a real life situation. So then I thought, well, maybe he really wants to do that, and maybe I'm wrong. I don't. I don't know. So I kind of pushed it more to see if that's something he would want to do. And then he was kind of pushing it with me, and we kind of both thought each other was ready to do something like that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Was it a game of chicken that kind of got out, Like, I think so. Oh, this. This is happening. Oh, this is really happening. Oh, you won't like. And then nobody Stopped anybody, and all of a sudden, y'all are heading off a cliff or. Right.

[Kate]

I think that's exactly what happened.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

Because we tried one time to go through with it in person before this incident happened, and neither one of us could go through with it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you all met with a third party, and you're like, hey, we're kind of into this.

[Kate]

Well, we didn't even meet him. Like, it came to the point where he was about to be on the way to the house, and we both were like, we can't do this.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

So then we. And we talked about it, and I. And I told him that I felt kind of angry that he even wanted to do it. It was almost like. It was so weird to me because I did enjoy it in a way, when we were talking about it. But then the fact that he actually wanted to go through with it made me feel like he wasn't protecting me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

From you being with another man.

[Kate]

Right. Like, it felt like he wasn't protecting my heart in any kind of way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And so you showed him by going to find another guy and you slept with him?

[Kate]

I don't know. That's how. I don't even. I don't even know how that even happens. Like, we.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So then a guy's coming to your house, and y'all both are like, no, no. What are we doing? This is crazy. This is like a fantasy out of control. Like, stop.

[Kate]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then you reached out, and this.

[Kate]

Is the same guy that was gonna come that night.

[Stephen]

Okay.

[Kate]

And he. He. I told him, you know, total stranger.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did you know him?

[Kate]

No, I had no idea who he was. He was a total stranger.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

And I had. I texted him and my husband text him. We both told him, like, we're not doing it. Sorry for, you know, getting you started. But then, like, a few, four days later or so, he texted me and was like, how are you doing? And then he kind of played on it, like, well, this is what your husband's been posting behind your back. And, like, this is what he's doing. And he's probably seeing somebody else because he's posting these things and doing this behind your back, so he's probably doing other things behind your back, too. And it kind of just got in my head. And then I kind of talked my husband back into going through with the situation, and then it ended up the guy was like, well, if you just come meet me, you feel more comfortable with the situation. And I was like, yeah. And I went. He was like, if you meet me first, Then you'll feel more comfortable when it does happen. You're gonna do it anyway. So it's not wrong. It's kind of how he put it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, y'all are gonna end up having sex together anyway, so you might as well. Y'all two do it first, and then it'll be okay for the threesome.

[Kate]

Exactly. And now I look back at it with, like, a clear head, and I'm like, that was so stupid. And we both have looked back at it as such a terrible, like, thing. We even let into the bedroom just because it was so. It's like it was all consuming for a few weeks.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And now it came out, and he. I almost didn't even want to tell him, and I almost felt like if we went through with it, then it would make it okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Mm.

[Kate]

Like, if we went through with it together, then I would feel justified with it almost.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did y'all go through with it in the evening, or did you call it off in the middle?

[Kate]

In the middle.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

Yeah. The guy was at our house, and it kind of got started, and then he. My husband freaked out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Kate]

So then we both were like, it was. It was terrible. And it was only two weeks ago when this happened, so it's very fresh.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And so then when your husband freaked out, the guy left, and he's like, what's happening? Can't believe this. How long until you said, well, I've already met with this guy.

[Kate]

I've already slept the next day.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, how did that go?

[Kate]

The next day? He just kept asking questions, like, I feel like you've seen him before. I feel like you know him. And I was like, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about, because I didn't. I didn't. He was already so upset, and I didn't want to make it worse. And I was like, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about. And then he was like, I'm just going to text him and ask him. And I said, okay, fine. So then I just told him, and now it's. He's very like.

[Sarah]

He.

[Kate]

He says he wants to fix things, but he's. It's. He's waking me up in the middle of the night almost every night with different questions and different things, and one minute he'll be fine, and the next minute he'll be really upset, and I don't really know how to help him process it. I also am trying to process it because I've never been that kind of Person.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. You became somebody that you don't even recognize.

[Kate]

Right. And that's what scared me the most.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Was that I looked and I never thought I was even capable of that. Like, the way that I feel about my husband has always been insane. Like, I guess that's not a great word. But, like, I've always been super in love with my husband since I met him. So the fact that I would even entertain. But we were having issues before it happened, and I've. I don't want to justify it by saying that, but there were things going on, like, with communication and lack of communication. We moved a year ago away from our family, and my mental health has not been great like, I've been. I started having panic attacks again for the first time in years. And I was looking back on our conversations and reading where I was, like, basically begging him to help me or to, like, to support me in any kind of way because he works night shift, so I'm always by myself. So I was, like, texting him, and I was like, will you please just, like, help me with this part? Because I can't do this, and I'm having a really hard time. And he would just be like, well, I can't fix you. And I was like, I know that, but, like, I need some help, and you're the only person I have.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So there's multiple issues here. Okay.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Issue number one is you have a marriage that was already a mess. If your body is screaming at you, trying to get your attention to the point that it spins you out and convinces you you're dying via panic attack, and your husband says, I can't fix that. He doesn't stop what he's doing and come running. You all have cracks in your relationship that are pretty significant.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's number one. Number two, you lost trust in you.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's a scary place to be when we lose trust in ourselves because it's hard to. It's hard to take a next step when we find out we're capable of things that we've judged other people on before. When we find ourselves capable of hurting other people or justifying weird things or falling prey to. Or using really thin arguments to go do a thing just to see what happened. Like, you know what I mean?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the third thing is, like, you. You. You blew up your husband's trust. This is going to sound crazy, but y'all planned to do a thing. Y'all plan to do infidelity together.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Which became a y'all versus the world Kind of thing. And I know, like, that in and of itself is a whole different conversation, but you violated that trust, Right?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so if he was calling me, we would have. Be having a different conversation. But ultimately, the marriage you had is over. Doesn't exist anymore. It's dust, just smoke.

[Kate]

Which I feel like is a good thing. Like, in a way, we've.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Could be. Could be.

[Kate]

It sucks because we've talked more in the past two weeks than we have for the past two years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. That's why a lot of people say that the. An affair saved their marriage because it just blew the house down. That was a house of cards, anyway, that no one would just say out loud, this is what this actually is. That's not a reason to go have an affair. God help us. But, like, there's people, like, it's like it. It brings to light what everything, like, truth real fast, right?

[Kate]

Yeah, it does.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So the next steps have to be, if y'all decide not to save your marriage, that one's over. To rebuild a new one. Y'all can do that. And it can.

[Kate]

We've seen it, Counselor, virtually. But his advice was basically just don't talk about it because it's opening the wound.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, that's stupid. Don't ever talk to that guy again.

[Kate]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's less about. Don't talk about it. It's. And you got to understand your husband, that same person that you're saying, like, I can't believe I did this. He knew you that way, too.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And only y'all three know how this engagement started, when this third party walked into your house. And what images are in your husband's head.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And when he's been asking you very specific questions, which is really common after an affair. Like, I want to know exactly what happened. Exactly. Now he's looping on that. The images in his head all the time of you with this guy, you with this guy, and he kind of got a glimpse of you with this guy in real life. Right. So it's all there. The next steps are very specific. Here is an open book. The table is clear. What must be true for me to rebuild trust in this house.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And by the way, he also texted the guy and said, come over. Here's my address. So he's culpable, too.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But y'all both have to lay out on the table. Here's what reestablishing trust looks like.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Kate]

I think that's where we're stuck, is like, we. We don't know where to Start.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so you tell me and he gets to tell you. Y'all tell each other. Let me say it that way.

[Kate]

Well, he tells me. I. I don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, well, that's. Then. Then say. I'm gonna go first. I'm deleting all apps. I'm cutting the Internet off the house for 30 days. At 8 o'clock at night, all the phones get shut completely off in this house. And we have to stare at each other.

[Kate]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that means we have to play Twister together. Or I'll send you some questions for human sex. We got to get to know each other again. We got to go on walks. We're going to read books together. We're gonna like. We're gonna have to do these things together and recreate a new. A new. Like, you gotta go first. If he's like, I don't even know where to start.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then you get to say, and by the way, you opened the door for this man to walk in the house and have sex with me right in front of you. I lost trust in you, too. Here's what must be true for me. I want to know that you'll fight from my heart again. And y'all have to also draw some boundaries, all right? Flirty conversations. What if conversations, fantasy conversations. Those can be so fun and playful and exciting and irresistible. Erotic. All. I'm all about it. Have. Have all the fun you want. Have all the conversations you want to have. But in the future, here's the breaks, right? Y'all got to build those boundaries in. So here's what this is going to look like. I don't ever want to have another conversation about you with another person, another man, another woman ever again.

[Kate]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't ever want. I don't want to have that conversation. And you can say you get three questions or five questions a day, and once you reach that limit, then we're going to go to the next day. Because just sitting here having like 40 questions every single day, every single day isn't helpful.

[Kate]

I think what he can't move past is like, he doesn't believe what I'm telling him about what happened.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's.

[Kate]

That's.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's the damning thing about sneaking off and sleeping with somebody else.

[Kate]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're not who he thought he. You were. Right?

[Kate]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So he's trying to imagine who you might be. And I promise what he's envisioning is worse than reality. Yeah, but you can't. That's the part you can't fix what you can do is, is do the next right thing every minute, every hour, every day.

[Kate]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And y'all can both say, hey, what does that look like when it comes to chores? What does it look like every day before we go to work? How can I love you today? What does it look like every evening with. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays all plan the activities that we're going to do after 8 o'clock and Tuesdays and Thursdays and Saturdays. You plan the activities we're gonna do after 8:00 or 7:00 because our phones are off.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And we've got to come up with. We got to reimagine our lives together. Or twice a week we're going to have another couple over just for dinner. We're going to go to a comedy show, we're going to watch a movie. We're going to begin to do things so we can reestablish liking, reestablish safety, reestablish trust in this relationship because we blew it up.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you could tell them, I. I totally understand your lack of trust and. But you just trying to tell them you're crazy for thinking this isn't helpful. So I will answer. I'll answer your questions. I'll answer. Five a day. That's kind of my capacity. Or seven a day, or 10, you get to decide. Two a day. I don't. I don't care what it is.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But when each of you establishes, here's what it's going to take to re. Establish trust and rebuild something amazing, the other person can say, that's not enough for me. I'm out.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Here's the question I want you to answer. I want you all to. To put it at the top of your paper. What do we want this house to feel like in one year when we both walk in? I want to feel full of laughter, warmth, sexiness, silliness, Dancing. And then let's reverse engineer what must be true. Starting today, gotta take dance classes. Cool. Both gotta go to the gym. Cool. Both gonna start reading the same. Like do a book, study together. Cool. Okay, that makes. Does that make sense?

[Kate]

Yeah, that does make sense. That it. Like you said, it's clearly just. Everything just. It's totally different. Everything changed.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. So you're dating again? Hi, my name is Kate. I think you're kind of cute. Can I get your number? And you both know the capacity you have to hurt each other.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm going to tell you something crazy. I don't think your marriage is over. If you don't want it to be, and he doesn't want it to be, I think there's going to be some fumbling and stumbling around in the dark as you all rediscover who you are, what you are capable of, how to forgive and how to say you're sorry. And then the most important thing is how to act anew, how to begin doing different things. Is that fair?

[Kate]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

As a cautionary oracle, I. I read a study. Gosh, man. It's been a minute since I read it, maybe a few years ago, but it's something like 90 something percent of it was a. It was a number that was so astronomical, I couldn't believe it. Have thought about a threesome or fantasized about a threesome. And more and more couples are like, yeah, let's give it a shot. What would you say to the couple who thinks they're pretty tired, they've been married for eight years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever. That's like, yeah, we can do it. We can handle it. What would you tell that couple?

[Kate]

No, but that was our part. We were reading all, like, the Reddit threads and all the forums, and people are saying, oh, it's great, and. And it'll make your marriage better. And we kind of got to the point where that was, like, the only thing we were good at was having sex. So we were kind of like, well, if it's going to make that better, then it has to make everything else better, too. But I would definitely, if anybody asked me, I mean, it's. It's just like a poison that gets in and it just spreads.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, here's the deal. You call me anytime. Okay?

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you and your husband want to be my guest at the Money and Marriage in February here in Nashville, Tennessee, y'all, too, can be my guest. You'll have to get your airfare here in your hotel here. But I'll. I'll cover your tickets.

[Kate]

Okay. We could do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But there's a lot of work between now in February, now in Valentine's Day, asking yourself this question. How do you want this house to feel like when we walk home? Because here's the beautiful thing. Y'all made some decisions to blow the thing up. Y'all can make that same. Those same decisions to recreate something freaking amazing.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I love what you just said. It's really important. The only thing we got good at was having sex. Cool. It's not a bad place to start. It's a pretty awesome place to start. But let that be an anchor point and begin to have honest conversations about we don't like each other. How do we. Let's, let's reimagine liking each. Yeah, you complain a lot. All you talk about is conspiracy theories. You actually think people landed on the moon. I'm vegetarian. And all you want to do is eat steak. Like, let's, I don't like being around your mother. Like, let's have these things because they're happening in our marriage whether we want to talk about them or not.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then, most importantly, let's begin to act different. Is that cool?

[Kate]

That's great.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Thanks for the call, my sister. I, I, I can't wait to see the kind of work y'all do. I mean, I'm strangely optimistic, and I don't know why. It's just a sentence. And if your husband ever wants to call, tell me. Give me a shout. I'm sure people listening will want to know the other side of the story, too. I'd love to talk to him as well. And if y'all both want to call in, I'd love to have you both on your marriage as you knew it is over. Here's the question. Do we want to build? And if we do, what are we gonna build next? We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, folks. We all have stories. We have the family and cultural stories we were born into. We have the stories about the good and the challenging things that have happened to us. And we have the stories that we are constantly telling ourselves, the stories of our past and the stories we have yet to write about futures that are powerful. And while you can't go back and change any of your old stories, the world is waiting to see what story you're going to write next. As we enter into 2025, I want to encourage you to examine and even heal your old stories and be intentional about the new ones that you're writing. And I'm not talking about goals that will be long gone by February. I'm talking about writing new stories that will change your life forever for the better. If you're like me, therapy can be a great place to explore the old stories and begin to write new ones. Maybe think of your therapist as your editorial partner, helping you write new, better stories. And if you're considering therapy, I want you to consider better help. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy, and you can talk with your therapist when it works. For your schedule, get online and fill out a short survey and you'll get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. Start writing a new story this month with better help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com DeLoney all right gang, listen. I've been looking for someone I could team up with to offer red light and near infrared light therapy at the highest quality, as well as someone who could help me with my other concerns about our modern living environment as well. I've tried a number of different companies and products and I'm super excited to be partnering with Bon Charge, a world leader in red light therapy. I've purchased a number of Bon Charge products with my own money and I love them. Red light and near infrared light therapy has been reviewed in over 4,000 peer reviewed studies with 400 plus of those studies being double blind placebo trials. Not only do these studies show amazing health benefits, not one study has shown any negative side effects. Red light therapy can help with boosting mood, helping with sleep, reducing stress, recovery from aches and pains, better skin and skin health, cellulite stretch marks and more. I use my red light therapy panels and mask both the near infrared light and red light 10 to 20 minutes each day and sometimes more when I'm in pain and often during my prayer meditation time or when I'm having trouble sleeping. Red light therapy has become a cornerstone of my health and wellness practice. I've also ordered their infrared sauna blanket, their special light bulbs and lamps for my home and more. Bon Charge ships worldwide in rapid time and their products, including red light therapy, are HSA and FSA eligible. Bon Charge offers easy returns in exchanges and a 12 month warranty on all red light therapy devices. Go to boncharge.com DeLoney and use coupon code DeLoney to save 15%. That's B O N C H A r g e bondcharge.com DeLoney and use coupon code DeLoney to save 15% let's roll out to Omaha and talk to Sarah. Omaha. I love counting crows. What's up Sarah?

[Sarah]

What's up? It's good to talk to you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's good to talk to you. I'm honored to talk to you. I promise I'm more honored. What's up?

[Sarah]

Well, I'll just start with my question and we can go from there. My question initially is how can I support my husband's growth while I do my own healing and setting Realistic expectations for rebuilding our marriage.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What do you, what are you. What are you healing from?

[Sarah]

We've been married for 15 years and he. It's basically been neglect and some emotional and occasional verbal abuse and trying to just figure out how to move forward from there. So I started listening to your show just over a year ago, and in September I turned the music off and I turned the lights on and said, this is actually what's happening in our marriage and I'm not okay with it. And I'm proud of you. Thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have little ones.

[Sarah]

I do. I have a 13 year old, a 10 year old, and a 7 year old.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That made that conversation extra scary, didn't it?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so you, you, you cut off the music, you turn on the lights, you sat down and said, this part of our life is over. How did he react?

[Sarah]

He didn't. Yeah, I didn't probably do it in the very best way, but I told him I was really wanting separation and I wrote him a long letter and we tried to talk about it, but he kind of just ignored the whole thing and tried to just do some things better around the house and whatever. And we tried to bring in some other people to help and didn't really get a lot of help and just kind of stayed in our cycle for the last year. And I, I know he's making some efforts toward change, but I'm having a really hard time responding positively because I know what the cycle looks like when I respond positively to what changes he makes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. So, a. I want to applaud your bravery. Good on you. Okay. So often this moment, what you did is still kind of scary, right?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it can feel like a nerve, like a, Like a raw nerve ending.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But that also means if I try to give you some coaching tips on some ideas on how to move forward, it can hurt. Right. So if I, If I walk through this with you the best you can, like you. Your feelings are going to be what your feelings are. Right. If we could all control our feelings, how rad would that be? But we can. They just. There are our bodies do what our bodies do. But will you at least intellectually hold space for. I think what you did was very brave and pretty amazing. And here's some next steps. Is that cool?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like me with you, not at you. Okay.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Most of the time it takes so much. Like these conversations build up for so long that they either come out like, like you mentioned, kind of caustic. This is the end. I want a separation. I want this. I Want this. That the other person knows you don't really mean. And they know I'm just going to weather the storm, and then things will kind of get back to the way they were. Or people explode. They do something that they can't take back. They. They cheat. They cheat. Or they go buy a bunch of stupid stuff on borrowed money, or they go like. Right. They do something they can't take back. So here's the next move. Most of the time, people are not very specific about what I need to see happen in this house. It's usually about, here's how I feel and here's what I want, and you need to start. But there needs to be some. Some really specific benchmarks, because here's what's going to happen, I think. Do you love this man? Do you love him?

[Sarah]

Yeah. We've been together a long time. Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So he's part of you. He's like an armor, a leg at this point, right? Yeah. Okay. You love him, but you don't like this guy at all. Is it fair?

[Sarah]

Probably fair, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Like, you. You love him. He's part of you at this point. Y'all have made a life together, but you don't like the guy.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you don't establish some pretty clear benchmarks, you're. Your like and dislike is just the finish line there is going to keep moving. And so if you say, I just need you to help out around here some more. Well, in his head, he's got a picture of what helps out looks like, and he's got a picture of what some more looks like. And for you, you have a picture now, but you're going to be judging whether he's helping out some more by whether you feel like you like him. And that finish line will keep moving and moving and moving. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that whole cycle often.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And then he realizes I can't win here. There's no way that I can bring this thing back because she just keeps moving the line on me, or nothing I ever do is enough. Or as Terry Real says, most men just want to know, why don't my wife. Why doesn't my wife like me? What is so bad about me? And it comes down to a set of, like, aligning pictures and words and then really saying, here's what I need in this house and specific metrics. And I know that feels very unromantic and very unhollywood and very unsexy, but Hollywood was never real.

[Sarah]

Yeah. I feel like in the last year, because I've talked to, I've talked to, I've talked to our eldership, and I have a couple of really good friends that we've walked through. And so I've put down some really specific things. But I think the follow through or having, like, the backbone to follow through is the hard part that I've struggled with.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me what you mean by that.

[Sarah]

Well, because I did ask him to move out or I said I would move out with the kids if he continued to speak to us this way, or if he spoke to the kids like he had, or to me like that again. And so that stops for a few weeks and then something happens. But I don't just move out when that happens and we just have another conversation about it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so you've heard me say this in the last year. Behavior is a language. So he understands that when you're mad, he just has to hang on and the storm will pass. Yeah, because your, your, your, your behavior says, forget what I say. I'm not actually going to go anywhere. And when you say speak to the kids in that way. I remember one time I sat down with a supervisor and I said, if you curse at me again, I will get up and walk out of this room and I will not come back. Are we on the same page? I never cursed. I said, if you curse at me again, I will get up and walk out. And the, the response was a long pause and it was understood, and to this leader's credit, the supervisor, because it never happened again. So did you, when you spoke to him and said, I don't like the way you talk to the kids, did you say, if you yell again, if you belittle me or make fun of me again, if you curse at us again, we leave?

[Sarah]

Or was it that?

[Stephen]

Okay, okay, I have said that.

[Sarah]

Yeah. So it's cursing, calling names, Great, good for you. Things like that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so now it's just a matter of follow through, or you come back and say, I'm not going to leave. I'm actually not leaving. I'm never going to leave. I want you to choose to not treat us like we're like, you know, like you don't love us, we're in the way somehow in your life. Can I ask you something insane?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

When's the last time you made him a cup of coffee?

[Sarah]

Every day? Almost.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. All right. So you're trying.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I have spent a lot of years trying. This last, probably the last three months has gotten really, really hard. I just kind of have shut down in a lot of ways. Like, I'm really having trouble just getting through my days.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is that because you know it's coming?

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a homeschool mom, and, like, the. There's just never a break.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. But it's. It's bigger than that. Are you coming to the realization that your life is not going to change unless you do something dramatic?

[Sarah]

Yeah, And I feel like I've been making dramatic steps for a year.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, you've been. You've been making dramatic statements for a year, but you haven't been making dramatic steps, Right?

[Sarah]

Yeah. Other than bringing other people into the picture to try to help get us some guidance and direction.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does he want that? Guidance and direction?

[Sarah]

I don't think so. I think. I think he says he does, but it's really hard for him to submit to any kind of authority.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So if behavior is a language, what's he been telling you for the last year?

[Sarah]

I don't know, because he knows I'm not going to do anything.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What has he been telling you? If behavior is a language, what has your husband been telling you for the last year after you sat down and said, I can't do this anymore?

[Kate]

He's.

[Sarah]

He's tried to put in some effort.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So let me ask you this on behalf of him. Are you done? Is this theater?

[Sarah]

I've been asking myself that for a couple weeks now for really solidly. If I'm. If I'm done.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Sarah]

And about 90% of me says yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Sarah]

I just don't know how.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What does that mean?

[Sarah]

I can't support ourselves, and I can't support the kids, and I. And don't have a job, and I homeschool my kids.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so some of those things are gonna have to change.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Your kids are gonna have to go to regular school, and you're gonna have to get a job, and you're gonna have to do this officially so that your husband will pay child support and alimony.

[Sarah]

And I don't. I don't want that. I want. I want.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know what you want, but what is. Is what is. He doesn't want to make it work. If behavior is a language. For a year. He's been telling you. Yeah, I don't care. I just want you to turn the lights back off, turn the music back on. Let's just go about our regular life.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'll meet with whatever guy you want me to meet with, and I'll tell him I'm going to work hard, but I'm not going to. And I'd rather have my ego intact than my family intact.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I think there's an element to that for sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, if somebody won't submit to an authority. It's funny. I, I, I started a new training program with a new trainer, and I've had the same, like, I've been, like, worked with the same guys for years, and I just started a whole new thing just to mix it up. And it's a pretty amazing company. And the trainer sat down with me and we walked through it all. And the trainer was like, oh, my gosh. Okay. You know all the stuff. And I was like, yeah, I know all the stuff. And he said, how can I help you? And I said, I'm submitting to you. If you tell me to do this, you put it in the app. I'm going to do it with no questions asked. And he was like, wow. I go, I am submitting to you. You are my trainer from this point forward. I said that to my minister at my church when I signed up to place membership at your church, I submitted to your leadership. And that's just my particular faith community.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And he is. Your husband won't submit to somebody to a therapist who says, I know more about what's happening than you do.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Nah, I don't want that. I want, I'd rather be right. I'd rather my illusion of power. That's cool. He's going to lose everything. Or here's the other side. He's not going to lose anything. Nothing's going to change. He's going to slowly. His wife's just going to turn to dust in his presence.

[Sarah]

Yeah, that's happened.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, I can feel it. You don't deserve that. Your kids don't deserve that. He doesn't deserve that. And so I think the conversation is 90%. Like, you've done all the feeling parts of this. There's the tactile direct. How much money will it cost for me to get an apartment for the kids? Or how much, like, husband, you're moving out on this date. I've got somebody at my local church who will serve as an attorney, and we'll do this at a discounted rate for us. You are telling me by your actions you don't want to be married to me anymore because you can't curse at me and the kids and you can't scare your family and all the other things that you're not telling me on the on the air, which I know are going on fair.

[Sarah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so here. Here. I guess my challenge for you is this. I would love for you to sit down with somebody and actually put a pen to paper and make an actual plan with actual numbers and exhale on that plan. Because right now you've made all these grand gestures and these statements, and they're brave and they're different, but they don't have any action behind them. They don't have any steps behind him. And good on you. You've. You've continued to tell him, you cannot talk to us like this. And here's what that means. And other. I'm sure there's other things you've said. You cannot hit me again. You cannot spin this again. You cannot come home drunk again, or whatever you've laid out for him. And through his actions, he said, I don't care. I will weather the storm. And you always make these big proclamations. You don't ever do anything. And here she goes again. I'm gonna let it ride, and then we're gonna move on. And if you want to let it ride, let it ride, let it ride, but stop beating yourself up over it. Or if you are done, the 90%, you've thought through it and felt through it and prayed through it and gotten wise counsel through it, and there's 10% left. Then if you're done, then for the sake of him, for you, for your kids, go make a plan and put it on paper and see what happens next. At least you've got. At least you. At least you're acting from a place of. With. With a firm foundation instead of just sense of feeling. My dream is that your marriage is saved. Is that. He goes, what am I doing? My stupid ego is about to blow this whole thing up. And me and my wife haven't liked each other for a long time, but we can get that back. That's not hard to get back. We can get that back. And I don't want these kids to grow up with going to two different Christmases and two different things. We can get that back. God, I wish you would do that, and I wish you would love yourself enough to demand that. But also, there's a financial reality, There's a. There's a fiscal. I mean, there's just. There's reality after reality after reality after reality. I get that. But I think it's time for action steps. You say, how can I support my husband's growth? It doesn't sound like he's growing. If you see growth in trajectory, then you start practicing, how do we like each other again. Let's go do fun things together. Let's do questions for humans together. Let's go be silly together. Let's go see a movie together. Let's go see a play together. I don't know what y'all are into. Let's go fishing together. Whatever things y'all are into, let's begin to work on our friendship. Let's work on liking ourselves together. But what I'm hearing is he's not growing. It sounds like he abused you one last time. You said, enough is enough is enough, and you drew the line and then he stepped over that line and you're thinking, are you? Oh. Oh, this is real. I hate this for you, my friend. I'll be here every step away. Call me anytime. Any way I can help you. Any way I can help you. I think it's time to get some wise counsel in your life, some friends around you and say, okay, I don't have to. I don't have to act, but I at least need to get some action steps. I at least need to have a plan on paper and see what this is gonna look like. And then me and my husband are gonna sit back down and say, okay, you didn't follow through. Here's what happens next. Thanks for the call, my friend. We'll be right back. All right. Since the first day I started the Dr. John DeLoney show, I've preached about the importance of regular exercise and your overall physical health. And I'm thrilled to announce I've partnered with TrainWell, an amazing app and personal trainer. In one, TrainWell offers tailored workouts with step by step guidance from real people. So while it is on your phone or your computer, it's not just an app and it's not just a personal trainer. It's the best of both. Me, my wife, my colleagues and their wives, we've all been using trainwell for some time now. And the feedback, the interaction with the real personal trainer, the accountability, and the personalized nature of the workout has all been outstanding. It's been amazing. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your fitness journey. You hop on a chat with your expert trainer to discuss your goals and make a personalized plan. And then it's time to get to work. As you complete workouts, your trainer will keep tweaking them to help you get better. And it works. Over 90% of TrainWell clients say they exercise more consistently. So if you're ready to start taking control of your health, take the quiz to find your perfect [e-mail] DeLoney Today, this January only, you'll get 45% off the monthly price plus 14 days of free training at trainwell.net/deloney Go right now. It will change your life. Trainwell.net DeLoney all right, let's go to Austin, Texas and talk to Stephen. Hey, Stephen. What's up, brother?

[Stephen]

Yeah, so I guess just kind of the. The condensed version of my question would be how do I overcome anxiety related to having children?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, good question. What are you anxious about?

[Stephen]

I am terrified of screwing up somebody else's life. I like to think that I came from a pretty good family, but my dad had his issues and a lot of those issues kind of got passed on and I'm scared to pass those same issues.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me about my kids. What are your issues? Don't tell me about your dads. What are your issues that you think you have that are going to ruin a child, man?

[Stephen]

Well, in the past I've struggled with. With addiction. Now that's, that's a long time ago in my life. I've been clean for about 10 years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. @ this point, what was your drug of choice?

[Stephen]

Pardon?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What was your drug of choice?

[Stephen]

It was alcohol and cocaine.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. To the big boys, huh?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. What, what, what did alcohol and cocaine. What did that wallpaper over for you?

[Stephen]

I guess, I guess several things. I had a. I had a friend that died when I was young.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And.

[Stephen]

And that kind of spurred a lot of this stuff on. Alcohol was. It started with alcohol and then kind of moved on beyond that. So it was the death of a close friend. My best friend, actually. Beyond that, I had kind of dealt with just general depression and anxiety related issues growing up. Didn't really realize what they were up until truthfully I got clean. I didn't really realize that's what I was doing. I was trying to cover up, you know, those depression issues and all the anxiety issues that I was having. I would say that those two things were probably the two biggest contributors.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How old were you when your buddy died?

[Stephen]

I was 18.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

18. I'm sorry about your friend.

[Stephen]

Thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What was his name?

[Stephen]

Her name is Montana. Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Was she goofy? Was she silly? Was she serious? Sexy, funny? Tell me about her.

[Stephen]

Yeah, she. She was pretty goofy. She was a big WWE fan.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sweet dude.

[Stephen]

Yeah. So if that kind of gives you an idea of like, you know, just the kind of person that she was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

Great person, though. Would give you the shirt off her back if it helps somebody else out. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And before that, what role did she play in your life?

[Stephen]

She was just my, my closest friend. She, we, we were together all the time. Never, Never any kind of like a romantic thing or anything like that. Truly just friends. We, we worked together for a period of time. So she was a co worker. We would hang out. We, truth be told, we partied a little bit. Now that was, that was kind of before the cocaine. That was a little bit of the drinking had just started out, you know, just kind of teenage.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Stephen]

You know, experimentation, I guess was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did your dad struggle with substance abuse?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. How long? Your whole life?

[Stephen]

Oh yeah, my whole life.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Stephen]

Still going to this day.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Where's mom?

[Stephen]

Divorce. That, that happened about a year ago.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. So tell me if I'm way off base here and I don't mind being way off base. Okay. When you grow up in the home of somebody who's struggling with addiction of any kind, you grow up next to like a, a ghost image of your mom or your dad or your brother or your sister. And especially when you're a little kid and into your early teen years, everything a child does has to be anchored into two adults that care about them. And you were anchoring into a ghost. You try to hug this person and they weren't there. Your dad was on the couch, but he wasn't there. Your dad would smile at you, but he'd look through you. And then you have this wild card, goofball, wwe loving, fun friend that happens to be a girl, which when you're a young boy, it feels like you got the keys to the kingdom. Right. Two of my best friends growing up were girls and I, I, I felt like I had insider knowledge. Right. It was amazing. And. But you have a special connection, especially non romantic friendship, which is pretty rare, but it's pretty rad. But it sounds like you may have been a really lonely kid and then your whole world went away when you were 18.

[Stephen]

That sounds pretty right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So how old are you now?

[Stephen]

I'm 32.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Something in the last 12 to 14 years has happened. You don't like you anymore. Why not?

[Stephen]

You know that. That's a good question. I don't.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Don't go back to the past. Give me right now. Are you, I mean, you're worried about kids? Are you married? Are you seeing somebody?

[Stephen]

I'm engaged.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Stephen]

We've been, we've been dating for about five and a half years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Good God, what's taking you so long?

[Stephen]

You know, there were, so I guess it's kind of separately on that. There were all sorts of Goals that I had in my mind, like, oh, I want to have a house ready to go that way when we get married, you know, we got a house to go to. And, and also, if I'm, if I'm gonna be real honest, I knew that shortly after we got married, kids were going to come into the picture. She made it clear pretty early on that she wanted kids. And while I certainly am not against that, I knew that like, once I pulled that trigger, let timers counting down.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

At that point, you know, okay, two things, two things on that. When you grow up with anxiety and low level dysthymia, low level depression, that just hangs around like a bad headache all the time, right. One of the ways you can cope with that is trying to grasp every variable in the world and control it. I will make this much money by this age. I will have a house by this age, I will have this degree by this age. I will be at this job. You see what I'm saying? It's. It's a kid trying to create order out of a chaotic childhood into adulthood. But the only way we're told we're taught how to create order is by these external metrics, these external things that are supposed to tell us that we're doing okay and we're all fine now. And it sounds like for the last 14 years you've been accomplishing those things. Are you pretty damn accomplished? Are you pretty good, what you do?

[Stephen]

I like to think so, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, I could heal it. Like, what do you do for a living? Give me a general picture.

[Stephen]

I work in sales.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And you do well?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir, I do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you do real well?

[Stephen]

I like to think so. I guess it depends on what metric you're looking at, but generally speaking, yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You sales people always have the next guy ahead of you. Give me a, give me a salary, ballpark.

[Stephen]

So the job that I work, if I just do my job, I make around. I would only make around 50,000.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Stephen]

I'm regularly in the 90 to 100 range.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And you had a magic number that you thought if I got six figures, then it was gonna be okay.

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then you, you learned that sucky thing that we all learn, which is you made six figures at one time and you went with you and you still didn't like you even though you had that number.

[Stephen]

I guess that's right. Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The second thing is this. I don't want you to enter into a marriage where you feel like you are entering into a mother son relationship.

[Stephen]

Oh, no, no, sir. No, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Where you like lose control. Right. If. If you want to get married and you want to start creating a life for this person, but you're not ready to have kids, I want you to enter into a relationship with a. Who will honor that and walk with you?

[Stephen]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does that make, does that make sense?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir, it absolutely does.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so it's kind of tongue in cheek. Kind of like the day you get married, she's not going to be like, ha. And like do a burn the birth control ceremony and then like we're having like that's not going to happen, right?

[Stephen]

No, no.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I. Here's the deal. I want you to maintain your voice, but all this to say, what are you concerned about with your kids? What do you think you're going to do to a child.

[Stephen]

Specifically? I. I don't know. Abstractly, I'm. I'm worried about passing on, you know, my own problems that I've dealt with and you know, my dad has dealt with and other families have dealt. Other families.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Your dad hasn't dealt with it. You have.

[Stephen]

Fair enough. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Say this. Repeat after me. I am not my dad.

[Stephen]

I'm not my dad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, no, no. I am not my dad.

[Stephen]

I'm not my dad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Will you make a commitment when you have a child? Every day you're in town, you will tell that kid, boy or girl, son or daughter, you'll look that child in the eye and say, I love you and give him a hug.

[Stephen]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There will never be a day of that kid's life that they don't fully know the dad loves them.

[Stephen]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Will you make a commitment to stay sober and if you find yourself unable to, like needing to numb some sort of hurt, that you'll seek professional help? You'll go get the care that you need?

[Stephen]

Absolutely. Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Say, repeat after me, man, I screwed up. I'm sorry.

[Stephen]

Man, I screwed up. I'm sorry.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you can say those words, you're going to be a world class dad. Will you commit to never making your kid feel small, even if they've got weird wacky dreams and not swearing and yelling at your kids?

[Stephen]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Will you commit to honoring those kids, mom till the end of time? That doesn't mean agreeing with everything, but that means treating her with dignity and respect.

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You need to start having kids tomorrow because I want more dads like you out in the world right now.

[Stephen]

It's funny that that's. That's what my fiance says as well.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So here's the deal. I don't think you're scared of passing on. I don't think you're scared of ruining your kids. Here's what I think you're scared of. I think you're scared of your kids looking at you and thinking about you like you think about you. I think you're scared about having kids and them looking at you and becoming ghosts just like your mom and dad did. And I want you to let that fear God. Okay?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Your kids will love you till the moon and back. And they demand little things like presents and putting your phone down and sitting in the mud with them. And like my daughter last night, scraping snowflakes off of a disgusting sidewalk and eating it. I just. I just let it roll, dude. You know what I mean?

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I had a hard, hard conversation last night with my son. He's really struggling when it comes to the. My phone restrictions and all that. And it's hard. I hate it for a man.

[Kate]

But.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He knows that I love him. And you're going to be that kind of dad. But your kids aren't going to stare through a hole through you. They're just not. You're going to be the most important thing of their entire world. But the person that needs to believe that is you. And your dad drank because he was going through hell, not because of anything you did. And your mom left, not because of you. Because she was dealing with crap. She was dealing with her own hell. Think of it this way. There's a period at the end of that sentence and the world is waiting to find out what Stephen's going to write next. When is your wedding? Dude.

[Stephen]

We'Re still trying to figure out dates.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Good God. Go to the justice of the peace tomorrow. Five and a half years. Plan a party later.

[Stephen]

Feel any better? The. The proposal actually just happened last night and she said yes, so.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She said yes.

[Stephen]

The dates yet?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, go this weekend and just call it for you've. You've been dating for half a decade already.

[Stephen]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I want you. Here's what I want you to do tonight. Will you do me a weird favor?

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This is going to sound crazy. This may be the most romantic thing you've ever done. And I want you to take full credit for this. And don't say that you heard it from some podcast guy. Okay?

[Stephen]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're 32. How old's your wife? Your fiance?

[Stephen]

She's 28.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

28. I want you to write a letter to 38 year old her. And I want 10 years from now.

[Stephen]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I want you to write about what kind of husband you are going to become over the next decade. What kind of man you're going to become over the next decade and how you're going to dedicate your life to listening and to not trying to solve, but to be with her and to love her and to provide. And then I want you to write a letter to your future kid 10 years from now, so maybe that kid will be eight or knowing you, you won't get married for four more years because you want to plan the perfect wedding. So whatever. But. But I want you to write a letter to that kid and I want you to read it to her. Here's what's going to be different. Because God chose me to be your dad. And I want you to read it to your wife and I want you, or to your fiance, I want you to put out into the universe. But more importantly, I want you to hear it. Here's what kind of dad I am going to become. The great Terry Real says family trauma rolls just burns through a family like a forest fire until one person turns and stares it down and brings peace to generations they will never know. And the part I added is the person who turns and stares it down gets burned and gets scars and it's painful, but he brings peace, as Terry says, to those next generations, that's you, and this is you saying this generational substance abuse, the generational depression, the generational anxiety stops with me. My kids will. Will know love and connection and laughter and warmth and joy, and they'll know sadness and grief, too. But this stops with me. And I'm putting a stake in the ground right now. And to my dear fiance, here's the life you can expect over the next 10 years. I dedicate my life to you and the kids that aren't even here yet. Here's the dad I'm going to become. I'm going to start working on this right now. Actually, you started working on this 14 years ago, and you decided to get sober. And one last letter. You got three to write. I want you to write one last letter to your friend. And once you go back and listen to this interview, this, this conversation between us, whenever you brought her up, you lit up like a Christmas tree. I could hear it in your voice. Why don't you go back and write her a letter and let her go. Let her go be free with whatever wwe angels she's hanging out with and commit to her in that letter. I'm going to live a life for both of us now, and it's going to be wheels Off. Off the top rope. Wheels off. I'm going to be the dad I never had. There's no anxiety about bringing kids into the future. It is wheels off. And by the way, that's a crazy statement. Of course we're going to be anxious about kids. The world's a crazy place. I'm going to make these commitments now. Then I'm going to go do the next right thing to make these commitments happen. Send me a wedding invitation, brother, and let me know when little Steven Junior's on the way. Or Stevenetta. I don't know who it's gonna be, boy or girl. I made that real weird. Sorry. Kelly's looking at me like, yeah, you made that weird. Send me a birth notice here in a couple years. The work you've done. Stephen's amazing, and I think the work is just getting started. Thanks for the call, brother. We'll be right back. I am the founding member of the get off the Internet and go Outside club. And yet, like all of you, I find myself at work and my personal life pretty much living on the Internet these days. As a society, we're creating more and more online accounts all the time. And we're signing up for promos, giving away our emails and personal numbers, and buying everything with our phones. I get hundreds of emails to my personal account, my business accounts, and every business wants to survey me and become my friend. And everyone everywhere is trying to sell me all kinds of stuff. It drives me nuts. And with all of this online activity, do any of us really know where our data is and who has it? Chances are high that data broker websites have your information and they're selling it to scammers, spammers and other shady people. But when you use Delete Me, they find and remove your data from hundreds of sites and they send you reports throughout the year to show you exactly what they've removed and from where. And right now, I'm getting way fewer of those spammy texts and phone calls. And it allows me to let my guard down just a little bit and finally feel some peace. This new year, I want you to share the peace by giving a delete me subscription to someone you love. Individual Delete me plans start as low as $9 a month. Go to join J-O-I-N deleteme.com DeLoney today for 20% off, that's joindeleteme.com DeLoney all right, we are back. All right. Something cool happened. Kelly, what is it?

[E]

All right, this is from Ryan. He said, I heard John reference a song Called Ceasefire by Frank Turner during an episode.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, geez, that song makes me weep.

[E]

I listened to it and the song really resonated with me. I like to say this year has been sort of my post war era. I'm 32 and growing up in a chaotic household taught me to always look for high energy situations and environments. My 15 year old self was always on the battlefield and ever since I've been continuing to show up on the battlefield, starting the wars if I needed to. This year I decided to change that. But much like the song, I think about my 15 year old self a lot. And although I love him very much, I realized that I was being very unkind to him. I expected him to figure things out that he never could have solved. As John would say, it's time to go. Let him pay, let him play. And for me right now, it's time for peace.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh my gosh. If you guys. Hey, that's. That's a. That guy will get me chucked up on the way home. I'm going to act tough until I leave and like, I appreciate that call. What was that? What was that? That letter. What was that?

[E]

His name, his name is Ryan.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Ryan. Thank you, brother. Thank you for that. If I could wish for anything for anybody, it would be peace between them and their 15 year old selves. And if you want to go check it out, everybody listening. Frank Turner's Ceasefire, that song off his latest record is just. I don't know if I said this on the show, but I listened to it and I just started sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And one of my oldest buddies, the drummer in my band in high school, one of my closest friends in the world, he reached out and goes, dude, tell me you've got this new record. It's so amazing. And I was like, yeah, I said this song. And he immediately wrote back and said, as soon as I heard that, I thought of you, dude. And just the war I had in my head with my when I was 15. That has continued on. Yeah, if you're struggling with letting yourself off the hook, your former self off the hook. Maybe today's the day. Let your former self go rest in peace. The world's waiting to find out what you're gonna write next. Grab a pen and let's get going. Love you guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bye. Hey, what's up folks? Big news. The Dr. John DeLoney show is now available a full week early in the Ramsey Network app. That's right. You can catch all the real talk of mental health, relationships, emotional health before anyone else. And the best part? It's completely free. Just click the link in the show notes to download the Ramsey Network app and start watching early today.