My Husband Is a Serial Cheater and Nobody Knows

Summary

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The Dr. John Delony Show

Episode: “My Husband Is a Serial Cheater and Nobody Knows”
Date: February 13, 2026
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into relationship wounds, trust, boundaries, and the struggle to value oneself amid family pressures and betrayal. Three main callers seek advice:

1. A woman hiding her husband’s serial cheating from her family
2. A husband desperate to support his depressed wife
3. A sister grappling with family estrangement due to past text messages

Dr. Delony offers direct, compassionate, and sometimes challenging counsel. The discussions revolve around choosing honesty, self-worth, facing pain, and the realities of complex family dynamics.

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[01:14] Caller #1: Hiding a Serial Cheater – “Sarah’s Story”

Key Discussion Points

• Sarah explains her situation:
  • Married for one year, together for five. Her husband has been caught sexting other women three times.
  • Her family adores him and is unaware. She hides his behavior to maintain newfound acceptance after her family disapproved of her prior marriage.
  • She feels alone and unsure if she should confide in family or anyone.

Insights & Guidance

• “But it’s built on a lie.” (Dr. Delony, 02:17)
  Dr. Delony underscores the unstable foundation: pleasing her family with a facade comes at the cost of honesty.

• Self-worth & patterns:

  • Delony notices Sarah’s tendency to put others’ approval above her safety and integrity.
  • He challenges her: “Why do you care less about your own safety and integrity and more about the fake analysis of people who don't live in your home?” (02:24)
  • Sarah admits lifelong patterns of people-pleasing, rooted in childhood exclusion and instability.

• Support beyond family:

  • Dr. Delony reassures her she doesn’t “have to” disclose everything to her family—especially if they’re not emotionally safe or supportive allies.
  • He emphasizes building support elsewhere: “You’re worth making a phone call to somebody, even if you have to pay them by the hour to sit down and talk…” (10:28)

• Confronting her husband’s behavior:

  • Sarah states, “It’s a pattern… is this how it’s going to be for the rest of our lives?” (12:16)
  • Delony is frank about the implications: “I don’t work with people that I don’t trust. And if people will cheat on their spouse, my God, they’ll cheat on me.” (14:07-14:43)

• Path forward – practical steps:

  • Seek therapy/counseling as a priority for herself.
  • Write a list of “I am worth…” statements and bring it to counseling.
  • Acknowledge both staying and leaving will be “hard”—choose the path that affirms her worth.

Memorable Quotes

• “Behavior is a pattern and I can’t accept patterns. I can accept a mistake that we, that you make and we move on from it and it never happens again. But now this is clearly a pattern…” (Caller, 12:20)
• “Choose the one that’s going to give you the most worth.” (Dr. Delony, 18:52)

Important Timestamps

• 02:17 – Foundation built on lies
• 04:34 – Challenges her self-image and value
• 10:28 – “You’re worth making a phone call…”
• 12:16 – Discussing marital patterns and consequences
• 14:07 – “I don’t work with people that I don’t trust.”
• 18:52 – “Choose the one that’s going to give you the most worth.”

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[20:36] Caller #2: “James” – Supporting a Spouse with Depression

Key Discussion Points

• James’ struggle:

  • Married 20 years, wife has emotionally ‘checked out’, is depressed and losing her sense of purpose.
  • He is overwhelmed doing household tasks and seeks ways to support her, wanting to avoid “being on her case.”

• Common “fixer” pitfalls:

  • Dr. Delony warns that “fixing” amplifies shame: “It comes across as a minute by minute, day by day confirmation that the things you feel about yourself are indeed true. You are a failure… you are broken.” (24:43)

• New approach—connection, not correction:

  • Delony encourages James to stop “score-keeping” and seeking reciprocity, and instead focus on loving action and presence.
  • “Intimacy and reconnection comes from, ‘Hey, I see you’re in the dark. I got a candle here. I’m coming to you.’ Because if she was trapped in the neighbor’s house, you’d kick the door in to go get her. And right now she’s trapped inside her own self.” (32:24-32:41)

• Practical suggestions:

  • Engage in her world: read her favorite book, watch her shows, ask how to love her today.
  • Seek his own counseling—not as a fix, but to learn to love her better.
  • Invite her into joint counseling in a way that affirms love and partnership, not as an additional task or pressure.

Memorable Quotes

• “What you have been doing isn’t working, period, at the end of that sentence. Let’s go rescue your wife, man.” (36:19)
• “If she had the flu, you'd bring her soup… So if she's struggling from depression, we're going to keep reaching.” (35:28-35:33)

Important Timestamps

• 24:43 – The harm of “fixing”
• 32:24 – The candle metaphor: connecting in the darkness
• 34:14 – Counseling: a shared journey of love and support
• 36:19 – Choosing a new approach

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[39:55] Caller #3: “Holly” – Family Estrangement After Harsh Texts

Key Discussion Points

• Seven-year-old texts led to ongoing turmoil:

  • Holly sent immature, critical messages about her brother’s wife. The wife found them; now, years later, Holly and her mother are ostracized.
  • Holly apologizes repeatedly, but her sister-in-law rebuffs all attempts at reconciliation.
  • Her brother is “torn,” misses his family, but prioritizes his wife.

• Delony reframes the narrative:

  • Challenges Holly’s assumption that her brother’s agency was stolen: “He chose another woman who became number one in his life… that’s a tough pill to swallow.” (45:41)
  • Encourages her to let go of the fantasy-family ideal and acknowledge her real grief and loss.

• Practical path forward:

  • “Set it down. Stop carrying her around with you. Your brother chose her, and he’s continuing to wake up every day and choose her over and over again. And no amount of hate, no amount of side eye… is changing anything other than it’s killing you.” (53:17-53:38)
  • Suggests focusing on positive outreach directly to her brother—not to repair, but to demonstrate ongoing love.

Memorable Quotes

• “No behavior has ever changed long term through complaining and nagging your way to something.” (56:42)
• “Let yourself be sad and then go do the next right thing…” (57:41)

Important Timestamps

• 45:41 – On siblings being replaced by spouses
• 53:17 – The toll of resentment
• 56:42 – Nagging doesn’t repair relationships
• 57:41 – The path forward: acceptance and sadness

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[60:03] Bonus Listener Mailbag: The “Who Did You Vote For?” Debate

Key Discussion Points

• Listeners took issue with Dr. Delony saying he and his wife don’t discuss who they voted for.
• Dr. Delony clarifies:
  • They discuss politics often, but intentionally never ask that direct question—a routine started to avoid disclosure pressures at work.
  • In their home, everything else is open for debate.
  • He values not letting “which team someone’s on” define relationships, especially in public or with students.

Quotes

• “People are interested in being on the winning team… I refuse to give that to people.” (63:13)
• “When you show up sitting with a hurting person… none of this other stuff matters.” (64:35)

Important Timestamps

• 60:43 – Listeners’ concerns about marital transparency
• 61:14 – Dr. Delony’s rationale and explanation

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Episode Tone

Dr. Delony remains empathetic, sometimes playfully irreverent but always honest and no-nonsense. He repeatedly affirms callers’ value and right to wholeness, while gently (or not so gently) challenging self-defeating narratives. The approach is practical, direct, and compassionate, put in plain, everyday language.

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Standout Moments

• “You’re worth making a phone call to somebody, even if you have to pay them by the hour…” (10:28)
• “If people will cheat on their spouse, my God, they’ll cheat on me.” (14:43)
• “What you have been doing isn’t working… Let’s go rescue your wife, man.” (36:19)
• “Your brother chose her… it’s heartbreak. Let yourself be sad and then go do the next right thing.” (57:17-57:41)

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with tough relationship crossroads—infidelity, depression, or family estrangement—and wanting actionable, empathetic, and brave advice for the next right move.

Transcript

[Caller]

How do I stop covering up my husband's transgressions? I've caught him sending inappropriate message to other women. They strongly disapproved of my first marriage, and it really took a toll on my family's relationship, and I finally, like, built that back up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But it's built on a line. Hey, this is John. I'm gl that you're with us. The associate producer, Alex back there just told me I am tall and hot. And, Alex, I accept. You're welcome to tell me that anytime. Kelly has never told me those things, but I could tell by the way you angrily stare at me. You think that's true? Not so much.

[Kelly]

Whatever makes the work happen, go with it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's what you said when you bought me drugs. About a year into this, you're like, if it worked, I need you to still be doing it. Let's go to St. Louis, Missouri, and talk to Sarah. What's up, Sarah?

[Caller]

Hi, John. I'm so glad you took my call. I'm really excited to talk to you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, thank you for calling. What's going on?

[Caller]

So my question is, how do I stop covering up or hiding my husband's transgressions from my family?

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's a loaded question. Tell me more about it.

[Caller]

Yeah. So just a little backstory. My husband and I have been together for five years and married for one. And in the five years that we've been together, I've caught him sexting or sending inappropriate message to other women about three times. And each time that that happens, I feel the need to hide it from my family because they honestly think the world of him. And this is the first relationship that I've ever. That they approve of. They strongly disapproved of my first marriage because of problems that my ex husband had, and it really took a toll on my family's relationship with me, and I finally, like, built that back up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But it's built on a lie.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's not real.

[Caller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Why? Why do you care less about your own safety and integrity and more about the fake analysis of people who don't live in your home?

[Caller]

I don't know. I really don't. It's just always kind of been that way. I don't know how to put myself first, I guess.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. I mean, because the next question I would ask is, why? Why? Why did you marry a guy? You knew this before you married him?

[Caller]

Yeah, it had happened one time before. Before we got married or engaged. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That you know about.

[Caller]

Yes, True. Very true.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It would be strange if it happened once over four years and then suddenly twice now that you're married.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I wonder if you're closer to him and y' all are more intertwining your lives and you're seeing it more.

[Caller]

Possibly. That could be. And I, you know, since it happened the first time, I'm definitely on high alert for it, so I, I go looking for it more, which probably isn't healthy either. But I mean, the thing is, and this is going to sound so contradictory, but he is a really great guy and all the aspects that make building a life together sound good.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Like he's trust and integrity.

[Caller]

He's. Yeah. No. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'll take somebody who makes less money but tells me the truth and is a ride or die seven days out of seven.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'll take somebody who is. Doesn't look like Brad Pitt, but who is loyal and will ride or die. I'll take somebody that I can get old and wrinkly with over somebody. I always have to wonder if. Yes, their direct deposits hitting and they're helping with the dishes, but they're also sending pics out to people and requesting topless photos of strangers all day, every day. I would make that trade.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What? What is it? I, I, I'm probably going to be able to answer my own question with this constant need for your parents to approve of, of you trying to take care of yourself and keep you safe, but, man, you, you have a pretty small picture of yourself.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or I've talked to you for, like, two minutes and I think I already have. I feel more a sense of your value than you do.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's probably true.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Did you grow up in that world?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Where there was just a, A steady, a steady sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times from mom and dad. Were they going to approve of the next action you took and the next thought you had and the next dress you wore?

[Caller]

I think it was more being left out of their world, so trying to get in it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, I can see that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Caller]

My mom had me when she was really young. And my dad, I don't know my biological dad, but my dad, my stepdad that stepped in, he was also young, and they did the best they could, but it was really rocky for a really long time. And so now that I feel like I have a good relationship built with them, I'm really scared to lose it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So here's how you're going to know that you sit down with your mom, like, those things are true and they happen and that's wired into your nervous system and you have to do the next thing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And by the way, I'm not suggesting that anybody who catches their spouse cheating automatically has to call their family.

[Caller]

Right. Yeah. And that's something else I was wondering, like, do I even. I wouldn't need to tell them.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I wouldn't.

[Caller]

I just feel so alone in this. Like, I just.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, that's the question. Who. Who else can you talk to? Who else do you have? Do you have girlfriends? Do you have a counselor? Do you have a spiritual advisor? Do you have somebody that you can sit down with and say, I'm experiencing some really awful stuff in my house?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Do you have that?

[Caller]

I. So the one girlfriend that I thought I did have, I started telling her about it, and she is actually having an affair on her husband. So that kind of shut that down.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And you think could.

[Caller]

Yeah, that was hard. And then my other girlfriend, she's just in a season of life with little babies, and she just doesn't. She's just not in a season where she can give emotionally right now. And I understand that. I have been thinking quite frequently about trying to find a therapist today. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Today. And in. In a large metropolitan city where you live, it's not trying to find. You just get on the phone and call some people.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And go to two or three sessions. And if you have a connection there, even if it's uncomfortable, it will be uncomfortable for you. Especially somebody who is always asking yourself, do you like me? Am I worth even being in this room with you? It'll be uncomfortable for you, but keep going. And if it just feels like there's no connection here, I don't want to be in this room. I feel unsafe for this person. Cool. Go find another one. But that's. That's the work to do, is you have to find some folks. If that is your family, then great. But if your family's going to weaponize your safety and they're going to choose this other dude over you, then they don't want to be in relationship with you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And that's heartbreaking.

[Caller]

Yeah. I doubt that. What would happen? It's just such a reflex now. Okay. That I don't even give them the chance, I think.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. If you put. If you go to them and you tell them all of this and you say, hey, I have some hard things to tell you, but I'm afraid I'm going to lose our relationship, Can I trust y' all with some really hard stuff? Because I got nowhere else to go. If they Said, oh, my God, come inside. Sit down. Yes. And you said, I found these things on my husband's phone, and I'm wrestling with them. I don't know the next right move. It's the third time in five years this has happened. I didn't want to disappoint y'. All. I don't want to disappoint myself anymore. There's some aspects of this relationship where he's. He shows up and pretty great, and this part is a nightmare. It's that there's just a tension in my life. The challenge if you do that is if you all choose to reconcile. And this guy just is. Does a 180 and is like, I'll never do this again. They can't get that out of their head.

[Caller]

Right, right, right, exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's there forever. And if they're good parents, they're going to side with you, Right?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And if they're good parents, then when you say, hey, all, I've forgiven him. We're making this thing work. We're making a go of this thing. We've got some plans in place. I need you to be on our side now. Then great. Maybe they could do that. It doesn't sound like they've done that in the past for you.

[Caller]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, so everything you're tell. You're telling me is that they're not a safe option for you or a wise option for you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Which is probably more scary because you've got nowhere else to turn, Right?

[Caller]

That's exactly it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Then if not for you, for me, for the people listening to the show, hear me say, you're worth making a phone call to somebody, even if you have to pay them by the hour to sit down and talk with them and say, I'm not okay. Don't know what to do next.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I'm curious, what makes this guy, absent the fact that he's cheating on you, what makes him so great in other areas? I'm. I'm interested in this part of the story.

[Caller]

While when we got together after my first marriage, it was a couple years and we met, and I really didn't think that I would ever be with anybody again. Like, I was very content to be by myself. And he was the first person that really took an interest for who I actually was and not how I made them feel. And we have built a life together. We travel, we have fun. I have the best times with him when I can put those things out of my head. And we built a business together. I had a dream of this business and he basically put his blood, sweat and tears in it to make sure.

[James]

That it came true.

[Caller]

And so it's just, it's really hard to reconcile like why he would do these things. And it just, it automatically makes me think that I'm not enough.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Of course. Because through his actions, he's telling you you're not enough.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I mean, I listen to your show a lot and I've, I've told him, you know, just recently, you know, behavior is a pattern and I can't accept patterns. I can accept a mistake that we, that you make and we move on from it and it never happens again. But now this is clearly a pattern and is this how it's going to be for the rest of our lives?

[Dr. John Deloney]

What was his answer?

[Caller]

He's, he always says it's not going to happen again.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, I know, but that's not true.

[Caller]

Yeah, His, his answer to this is white knuckling and putting his head into work and not thinking about it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Which means there's a hundred percent failure rate in that sort of approach.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Until he decides to dig into why he is so uncomfortable in his own skin. Yeah. Let me put it this way. You can't solve what's going on inside his chest for him.

[Holly]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But it does call up the same old demons of you being a four year old little girl wondering, where's dad?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What is it about me that my young mom and my young dad don't want to be around Me.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Those same alarm bells are going off as we have success in travel, success in business, we have a fun sex life, we have fun together. Yet what is it about me that I'm not enough?

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I need you to hear me say, your bio dad left because something was going on with him. Not you and your mom and dad, your stepdad and your mom had demons when they were kids and it wasn't about you. And this guy's struggling with stuff inside his own chest. It's. I hate to say it's not about you. What is about you is your safety and well being. And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't work with people that I don't trust.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And if people will cheat on their spouse, my God, they'll cheat on me.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

They just, they will.

[Caller]

It's all. Yeah, it's all stuff that I needed to hear. I know it in myself. But also it's really hard to just put it down and not look at.

[James]

It for a little bit.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. It Burns when you grab it.

[Caller]

Yeah, I hate that. Me too.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So hear me say, dude, you're worth somebody that's going to tell you the truth and you're worth somebody not that's not going to find other people attractive but isn't going to sexually engaged with other people.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And you're worth somebody that you build a dream and a business with that you know, I can count on that person. You're worth having friends. Just if. If you get nothing out of this phone call, just hear me say your worth so much.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And untangling this is going to be hard and you might disappoint your parents. And if you do, good riddance, man. And if you've listened to the show for more than one episode, you know that I can't stand when people cut off everybody in their life for no reason. Yeah, but this isn't a matter of cutting off. They cut you off a long time ago if they're going to walk away from you in your time of need like this.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Will you commit to me? Will you call somebody today?

[Caller]

Yes.

[James]

Set up an appointment off this call.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Thank you.

[Caller]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Tonight, when you're by yourself, I want you to get out a piece of paper or a small journal and I want you to start writing the phrase I am worth. And I want you to free write all the things that are true. I'm worth somebody that I trust. I'm worth parents who will be with me by my side when somebody else hurts me. I'm worth a business partner that I can count on all the time. To be honest, I'm worth a spouse that sees another sexy person on the Internet and doesn't feel the need to solicit nude photos from them. I'm worth laughter in my own house. I'm worth going on vacation and not having to consciously shove things out of my head just so I can get through the day.

[James]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I want you to take that worth list into your counselor and say, I know I'm worth more than the life I've created and I don't know how to get here. And let your counselor walk with you. And you. It won't be forever, but tell them that you want to develop a path.

[Caller]

Yeah, that sounds really nice.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know it's a matter of choose your hard. You can keep doing the same thing you're doing. And it's hard to always wonder who he's texting.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Why he's 30 minutes late, why he's an hour late? Why? He's two hours late. Where's that other 600? Oh. Oh, okay. That's hard, right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And changing this will be hard.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Both paths are hard. Choose the one that's going to give you the most worth.

[Caller]

I think I'm ready.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. I'm proud of you, sister. Thank you for the call. Call me back anytime. Anytime we can. I can help. Call me. Even if I can't help, I'll just sit here. I'll sit here with you. Thank you so much. We come back, a man asks how he can talk to his wife about her re engaging with her life. All right, you all know that I use Hallow, and right now you can try the app for free for three months. That's 90 days of the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world at no cost. And this offer is only for my audience. Go to hallow.com deloney and check it out. And listen, here's why I use it. I My life's busy. Family and work and everything else that the world throws at me. And if I'm not anchored spiritually, I'm untethered everywhere else. Hallow helps me start my day grounded before the chaos comes. And this year, Lent starts early. Lent is a season of reflection and fasting for Christians, but honestly, anyone can benefit from hitting pause and resetting with purpose. Hallow walks with you through that process with daily reflections and guided prayers that bring clarity and peace. Hallow helps you breathe again. It just creates space to be present. So if you're ready to quiet the noise and reconnect with what matters, check out Hallow. And remember, when you sign [e-mail] DeLoney, you get three months absolutely free. That's hallow.com DeLoney for three months for free. All right, let's go out to Dallas, Texas and talk to James. What up, James?

[James]

Hey, how are you, Dr. John?

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'm good, man. What's going on?

[James]

Good. Well, hey, first off, I just wanted to say thanks for. Thanks for everything you do on your show, man. I think it's fantastic. I've learned a lot from it, and I hope everybody feels the same way.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, I appreciate it. There's some people in a Reddit thread that do not think that way, but I appreciate you calling.

[James]

Going to be haters, right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[James]

So, you know, I think this is something that a lot of spouses kind of struggle with. And bottom line, like, I kind of just feel like my wife is just let herself go, just emotionally, mentally, physically. And you know, I want to do everything I possibly can to help her get back on track, but I just don't have the answers. I don't know where to start. And, you know, if I try to talk to her, you know, I get this sense that, I mean, she'll just tell me flat out, like, gosh, stop being on my case 24 7. You're always on the case. And I just need some good tactics because as a guy, you know, I know we're not all built this way, but, you know, a lot of times when friends watch me, hey, how are things going? Like, oh, it's good. Or everything's great. We just don't open up a lot. So, you know, I don't know who to talk to. And I just need some, some pointers on things that I could do to just help her get back in the game.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, man, I appreciate your call, dude. It took a lot of courage to call. Appreciate that. And I'm not going to join the chorus of people who will say, who do you think you are? And all guys are interested in blah, blah, because I hear this, this is, seems to be. And tell me if I'm wrong. This is deeper than. She's gained weight. This is deeper than we're not having sex anymore. This is deeper than that stuff. It's. I've. I'm watching the woman I love. Watching the, the light inside of her go out.

[James]

Yeah, 100%. And I mean, you know, there's, you know, there's depression there. She's lost her identity.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[James]

I mean, those things, of course, but.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Those are big things. Tell me, tell me about. It's like those, you know, there's those few things like depression and loss, identity. Well, so is. Do you have kids? How has she lost her identity?

[James]

We do have kids.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[James]

And, you know, a lot of the conversations I have with her sometimes revolve around, you know, I want, I want us as a team to try to put the best examples forward for our kids. And, you know, it's challenging if sometimes I feel I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting or give me some examples. Okay.

[Caller]

So.

[James]

So we, we live kind of in a traditional household. I mean, she's a, you know, ever since we met and started dating and got married, I mean, you know, we've been married for 20 years now, so I love her to death. There's been this sense that, okay, hey, all I wanted, I would love to be a stay at home mom. I want to take care of the kids. I want to make dinner and all that stuff. And a lot of that stuff is falling off the, you know, falling off the wayside. So I'm the one going shopping. I'm the one, you know, just everyday things and I don't mind doing any of it. That's, that's not, that's not why, you know what I'm talking about. I'm. Of course I'm here to help, but I just want her to, you know, I'd like to see her just get up in the morning, have a plan, go somewhere, get ready. Even if it's just being social with people. I think that's a big aspect of her life that's kind of missing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Tell me about the depression. Has she been diagnosed with depression or she just been struggling?

[James]

She's taking some medication for it. I don't know exactly what she's taking. She's, you know, she speaks to somebody on a monthly basis, but it's more for just like, hey, how's the medication going? And you know, of course she's going to say, oh, it's working great. But I don't think she's got anybody that she talks to, per se. And I've even said, like, hey, look, like, why don't you go talk to somebody? Because my, you know, the way I'm built and I don't know if, you know, I know this is not all guys, of course, but we tend to be fixers. And hey, even got a problem, I can fix the problem. Here's how you're going to fix it. Okay, see you tomorrow. That kind of thing. And I know it's not that easy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, the challenge is when a fixer, when somebody is who is struggling is married to a fixer.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is it comes across as a minute by minute, day by day confirmation that the things you feel about yourself are indeed true. Okay, you are a failure. You're not enough. Or to use the fixing language, you are broken. And here's what you need to do.

[James]

Sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And that you're right. That's. There's a traditionally male approach to, oh, I'm just gonna go hit that guy. Then after that we'll be fine. And then we'll buy each other beer and we'll move on with our day. Right. Or, well, let's just, let's just not go to see our family anymore. That's easy. Or let's just never go to that church again because they're terrible. Let's go to this one. And there is a, A fix it mentality and there is some health healthy aspects to that, but there's also some not healthy aspects to that. And if a fixer is constantly coming up with, well, you know, what you need to be doing about this and doing about this and doing about this, somebody who is struggling with depression, someone who is trying to figure out after 20 years, who am I? What is my role here? What's my purpose here? It just confirms everything that, that self narrative, right? So there, there's a couple of things here that I would challenge you on. Okay, I, I'll, I, I think I've talked about this on the show in the past. I don't remember or not, but it was, I think it was a couple years ago. I had this revelation. Maybe it was last year or the year before that. I had this thing that just popped into my head. I take a retreat with my wife every year, and before that I spent some time by myself every year. Just like, what kind of guy were you this year? How did your business go? What kind of dad were you? Kind of husband were you? Are you becoming the guy that you want to become through actions? Right? Are you taking the right actions to keep your promises to yourself? So I have that reflection time every year, and for some reason, this particular year popped into my head. How much money have you spent on like, getting trained in mental health stuff? And the number I came up with was a couple of hundred thousand bucks. When you figure in the, the PhD, when you figure in all the trainings, all the books, all the travel, all the conferences, all the, you know, the medical conferences and the mental health, all that stuff, it was a lot of money. I'd invested in time. And I was thinking, man, good man, you're investing like you're going all in on this deal, right? And then a voice that I've never heard before asked, what are the two most important things in your life? And I gave myself my stock answer, which is my wife, my family, and my faith, right? That's important to me. And the next question was, how much have you spent time and money on getting to know those things? And if I'm honest, the answer was zero. Zero. I go to church and I, I mean, I tithe. And so maybe that could be a cost, but not really. And so I did two things from, from that conversation with myself, like, oh, man, if I'm going to say that follow somebody's calendar and follow their, their money and you're going to find out who they are, then I need to put my money where my mouth is. So I hired a theology professor from A university here in town and said, we're going to meet for coffee once a week, and I want to do Faith 101. I want to know what I actually believe, because I can deconstruct anybody's anything, and I can have conversations with everybody. I need to know what I actually believe. I have a young kid, two young kids who are staring across the table at me saying, daddy, who are we going to be? And the second thing was, I need to get to know my wife again. And here's what I asked her. She's an old college professor. I'm an old college professor. So I said, hey, will you make me a syllabus of you? And she's like, what are you talking about? And I said, I don't know the podcast you listen to, I don't know the books you read. I don't know the shows that you watch when I'm gone. I don't know what you're wrestling with. I, I, I just want to get to know you again. One month went by, two months went by, and then I remember being like, hey, I never got that syllabus from you. And she's like, yeah, I was hoping you'd forget. And I was like, why? And can. I said, she said, I'm afraid that you're going to see all this stuff and you're not going to like me anymore. And it was one of those, like, time stops in my house. And so, yeah, you know what I'm saying?

[James]

He's afraid of that. Yeah, I think she's, you know, I think she's afraid of that. I don't think she, she didn't have positive relationships growing up. Mom and dad was a little tumultuous, you know, even relationships that she had, you know, during high school.

[Caller]

And I, I know, I know.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But listen, let's bring it to the present.

[James]

Sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You know how I know she's gonna think that? Because she already thinks you don't like her. Because she already thinks that you think she's not enough.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so the approach here is not, hey, you know what you could do? You could get on this diet. You can start this workout program. You can go do this, you can go to this, you can join a gym, you can go to the Y, you can go get a job, whatever that is. A series of things that for somebody who's struggling with depression, somebody who's struggling to get out of bed in the morning, hears as if you want me to, like, you, go do these 10 things, right? And if you're A people pleaser and a performer. People will hop out of bed and go sing and dance or if they're not a people pleaser, if they're somebody who learned really young. I just need to get small and disappear in my own house. That's the safest move for me.

[James]

Man.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Getting out of bed's real, real heavy.

[James]

Yeah, because that's been an issue. You know, it's just there's a. I'm sure a lot of people do this that are in similar situations. I mean, they're, they're, you know, outside. How people view them outside the home is different than how they view them, you know, like that person views themselves when they're, when you know where they're within the four walls, of course. So, you know, obviously everything seems hunky dory on the outside, but you know, you know, on the inside there's this internal battle. You know, I know that you're big on hey, write yourself a letter kind of thing, right? So in an, in an airport a couple weeks back, I wrote her a letter and I'm like, I don't know if you called it like word vomit or I can't remember what it is, but you're like, just write. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to write her a letter. So I wrote her a letter and it was, you know, it was, it was probably about five or six pages and I'm like, hey, just letting you know that you're enough and you're loved and it's okay. And we're in this together and we're going to do this and let me tell you some stuff that, that, you know, I want to be upfront with you, with what I'm feeling, and I'd like you to write me back on what you're feeling. And you know, this was six weeks ago and you know, that next morning I got a little, you know, a little note that was like folded up piece of paper like you get in middle school when you're passing notes and says, oh, thank you so much for your letter. And you know, hey, I'm going to write to you. One, two. And I'm like, that's awesome.

[Caller]

That's great.

[James]

Okay, maybe we're opening up here and. And you know, I asked her, hey, I'm. I still waiting on my letter. And she goes, oh my gosh, I like, I totally forgot about that. So I'm like, man, I put a lot of work into that. Aren't they? Okay, okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So if you go right to scorekeeping yeah. Then it's. It's less about how do I connect with you?

[James]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And it's more about, look what I did. Yeah.

[James]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Score keeping is about fear.

[James]

Got you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right. It's about I. Now I'm doing the dishes. Now I'm going to the grocery store. Now I'm doing these things. And what are you doing? And that's never a recipe for intimacy and reconnection.

[James]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Intimacy and reconnection comes from, hey, I see you're in the dark. I got a candle here. I'm coming to you. Because if she was trapped in the neighbor's house, you'd kick the door in to go get her.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And right now she's trapped inside her own self.

[James]

For sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So go get her. And what do I mean by that? Find the book on her nightstand and go buy the exact copy and start reading it in bed next to her. If there's a show she's watching, then you start watching it with her. If there is a. Hey, it would mean a huge deal to me. A way you could show me you love me. Today is. Will you go for a walk with me? I want to walk by myself. I like walking with you.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's you getting up in the morning and saying, how can I love you today? I don't know. I don't know. All right, well, I'm gonna go make your cup of coffee and bring it to you.

[James]

Sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And it's these small daily bids, as the Gottmans call it, for I love you. I love you. I love you. Through action. Through action. Not I love you, I love you. And now here's what you need to go do.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[James]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That makes sense because that's to somebody who's struggling with some. Someone who's struggling with depression. That's all they're going to hear in a big neon sign is, blah, blah, blah. You're not enough.

[James]

Do you think it would be healthy for her to go speak to somebody that's, you know, like. That can just listen to her 1 million percent?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes. Just. Just doing a monthly med management check in is clearly not. You're. You're watching your wife dissolve in front of you. If clearly that's not working and it's a problem with our current psychiatric system. I get it. And you going and saying, you know what else you need to do? Go see a counselor. That's going to bury her, too.

[James]

Sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You going and saying, you know what? I've decided I'm going to go see a counselor because I want to be the best husband I can be for you. And I feel like I'm struggling to connect. What? Yeah. Dude, I love you so much. I'm sick for how much I love you. And I want to be the best husband as I can be.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And you're gonna go, and then you're gonna go. And you know what? That might bury her further, but it might turn on a light in the room. A little one.

[James]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Because then after the fourth or fifth, you could say, hey, would you come with me?

[James]

Right, right, right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

To my session.

[James]

That was my next question. Like, should we go together to something like that? You know, which I'm not opposed to.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I would invite her to yours.

[James]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And then possibly in that session, she could hear in front of a third party how much you love her.

[James]

That's a good point.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And the question here is not. Or the. The answer here is not. Here's what you need to do. Here's what you need to do. Here's what you need to do. The answer is, I miss my wife.

[James]

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. That's a good. That's good. That's a good thought.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But if she had the flu, you'd bring her soup until she got better. Right?

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. So if she's struggling from depression, we're going to keep reaching. And we're going to keep reaching. We're going to keep reaching because we made a covenant, dude. We said in sickness and health till death was part. So we're going to keep going. We're going to keep going.

[James]

Yeah. And I mean, it's, you know, she's. It's been cyclical. A couple years back, she was in great shape. You know, actually, I know, bro.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Listen, listen. You got. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Stop talking about her physical shape. That's not the problem.

[James]

Sure.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. Stop talking about the things she used to do. You have a person who's sick right in front of you.

[James]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And if you, like, if you keep going back and dragging the past into right now saying, look, what used to be, that's just a weight she can't carry right now. You can't carry that weight right now.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's a decision to resent the moment you're in. How old are your kids right now?

[James]

12 and 17.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, so one. She's got a kid about to go.

[James]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

She has another kid about to explode.

[Caller]

Right.

[James]

Already.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so you'll have a brand new marriage. And there's something about saying, not. I want you to be like you used to be. I want it to be. It's about saying, okay, we have a new marriage. I want to love you the best way that I can right now. And it might be one week, it might be one day, it might be one month. It might be six months of you showing up every day saying, how can I love you today? I don't know. Well, here's your favorite cup of coffee, just like you like it. And here's yet another sticky note on the mirror. Here's an invitation for you to come with me on a walk. Here's an invitation to come to my counseling session. And if you start asking, well, what about me, dude? What about me? Then that's you keeping score with a person who's clearly struggling. And right now, y' all need one of you to step up and say, I'm gonna be all in. I'm gonna come kick in that door. And in this way, it's not kicking the door. It's gently approaching. And not talking about weight, not talking about you need to. And not talking about you should have. Not talking about you used to, but talking about right now. How can I love you right now? And I'm gonna keep showing up, but ask her for. Ask her for a couple of books. Ask her for a couple of movies. Enter into her world for a short season, and maybe none of it works. Maybe it doesn't work at all, but maybe it does, and what you have been doing isn't working, period, at the end of that sentence. Let's go rescue your wife, man. Make a call today to a counselor, and you start going, not so you can fix her, but so that you can learn to love this new version of the woman you married. You're a move, brother. Appreciate the call, dude. We come back, a woman asks how to fix things with her brother after really making him mad. It's February, and it's dark and cold outside, and that means you're probably spending more time in bed. So if you're going to be spending more time in bed, do it right and with comfort and get yourself a Helix mattress. I've been sleeping on a Helix mattress for a couple of years now. And listen, I track my sleep. I. I know for certain that my sleep quality and depth has improved since I got my Helix mattress. Helix mattresses are designed for real people with real sleep styles, whether you run hot toss and turn or sleep like a rock. Get online and take their sleep quiz, and they're going to match you with the mattress that fits you. It's simple. Takes, like, two Minutes. And it works. I did it. You gotta do it. Plus Helix offers a hundred night trial and every Helix mattress comes with a 10 or 15 year warranty. And right now Helix is giving my audience 27 off site wide. This is the best deal you're gonna find anywhere. Go to Helix. H E l I x helixsleep.com DeLoney today. That's helixsleep.com DeLoney with Helix. Better sleep starts right now. All right, Little Rock, Arkansas. Let's talk to Holly. What's up? Holly?

[Caller]

Hey, how are you?

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'm good. What do you say?

[Holly]

Well, I just feel very lucky that you're taking my call today. So I'm really looking forward to your advice on this. As you said before your break, I did do something that kind of will definitely upset our family. It's really more my sister in law than my brother. Although it's definitely affecting everyone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What'd you do?

[Holly]

So I sent some text messages. This was like seven years ago. I sent some text messages that, although not very.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What were they?

[Caller]

Mature.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What were they saying?

[Holly]

Basically, when my brother married his, you know, now wife, I think they'd been together, I don't remember, seven or eight years. We started, we. I just say, like me, my mom, other people that knew him started noticing some changes in him. Like he wasn't really allowed to come to our church anymore. His wife is very closed off, doesn't hardly talk to anybody. Literally has never asked me a question in seven years, like, how are you? How's your son, like ever. And so the, the messages that I sent were addressing that, but it was in a really immature way.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What did you write?

[Holly]

I don't, it's been here. Okay, so here's the thing. It's been so many years that I can't, I honestly can't tell you specifically. I think I said things like I may or may not have said that he drank the Kool Aid, things like that, that were not very nice. And just calling her, calling out the behavior that she's had towards him and towards the family. So obviously, in retrospect, I handled it poorly. Me and my brother have always been the type that, you know how some siblings are. You can say things to each other, you can yell and scream and then you're fine five minutes later. So I sent those things in anger. And then what happened was she went in his phone and read them but wouldn't let him tell me. So for a couple of years, I had no idea she had read these text messages.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You, you take away your brother's agency a lot.

[Holly]

Okay. What do you. What do you mean exactly?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Has it ever occurred to you that he showed her that he doesn't want to come to Yale's church?

[Holly]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How do you know that?

[Holly]

No, no, no. I guarantee you that's not the case. He would never. No, no, no, no, no. He would not do that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You think. You think that he would be married to somebody and somebody would rip on his wife to him and he would choose that person over his spouse?

[Holly]

No, I don't think that. Nor do I think he should.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Holly]

I don't think he would purposely show her.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're saying. You're saying two different things.

[Holly]

Well, I. I don't know what good it would have done to have shown her. Like, even if he was, like, telling me, like, hey, you're wrong. Don't ever talk about my wife again. That's one thing. But to show her. I don't see what good that would have done.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, to be a person of integrity and not keep secrets in his own marriage.

[Holly]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or maybe he has said, hey, my. And I'm making stuff up here. Right. To be provocative. Yeah. But I'm just trying to give a different side of the narrative. Because you've got a story that's so entrenched in your head.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That somehow you're trying to rescue your brother from this evil person.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And what I've found over the years is it's never that cut and dry or that you don't know that he might have told her, hey, dude, don't tell my family anything. It will end up in text threads. They just run their mouths about people just keep low. And she was like, cool. Got it.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or I want to go to whatever church we want to go to or not go to church if we don't want to do that. And she's like, oh, thank God. I can't stand that place. Cool.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I've been having to go to these Sunday lunches with my family for the last 15 years. If you don't want to, like, cool. Like, you don't. I guess what I'm saying is you don't know. And so you have one side of a story that you've made up, and this thing's gone on for seven years. You know what I'm saying?

[Holly]

Yeah, I. I think there's some fairness to that, because I do think in the beginning. So me and my mom and my brother have always been very close, you know, forever. And so I think in the beginning, there probably was A learning curve for everyone. Because my brother probably did consult us. And let me just say this. I would like to say this, though I can guarantee you I have never once overstepped. I've never gone to their home unannounced. I think I've only been to their home three times in the seven years. So I just don't want it to be. Paint the picture that when I say that, yes, there was a learning curve. This wasn't like a situation where he calls us every step he makes, we're giving him advice on everything to do. Because I know some families are very enmeshed like that. It was not that totally, but nonetheless, I could see where he probably did go, oh, let me, you know, let me see what my sister's doing or whatever. And that probably was something that needed to change.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, and I guess I'm also wondering, is it hard for you and. Or your mom that your beloved brother. This ride or die brother you had and your mom's. Is it her only son?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Her only son chose another woman who became number one in his life. Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.

[Holly]

You know, it is. I agree. And I've had, unfortunately, plenty of years now to reflect on this. But the truth is, when he first met her, we were very excited because we. It's a. It's. It's too long to go into today, but there were some things that had us separated in our earlier years. And so we were very much like, okay, this is. We're gonna make up for lost time together and blah, blah, blah. So when she came on the scene and was just cold, indifferent, had, you know, didn't want to interact with anyone, it was very disappointing. It still is. Very disappointing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Holly]

And I know that's his decision.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, exact. Like that could be disappointing. And when he met somebody and he's like, dude, I think I met the girl, you instantly had a picture in your head of what this was going to be like. You were going to get a new sister. Y' all were going to have all these fun adventures together. It was going to be one big happy family. And she was like, I want our family to be us. And instead of grieving that picture that you concocted out of thin air, like, I want this to be like this. And she's like, no, the home that we were going to co create is going to be different than the one your sister imagined and your mom imagined. And he was like, cool, Great.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Instead of grieving that and saying, okay, I still love my brother he clearly sees something in this woman he wants to create a life with. And so I have to grieve the. The fantasy I made up. And then I gotta find where I can be a part of this new thing or just decide I don't want to be a part of it at all. But instead you've kept your picture up on the wall and you keep pointing back to it, saying, this is the way it should be, and she's the problem. And I guess. I guess what I'm saying is, after seven years, you still don't have a relationship with your brother, which seems to be the thing you miss the most.

[Holly]

Well, of course. And I've.

[Caller]

I've.

[Holly]

And again, I guess I should have done this in person in retrospect, although I can almost guarantee you it would have turned out really poorly. But I have tried three times. I've emailed her three times and basically said, I'm an idiot. I'm so sorry I said the things I said. I was angry. I was really more angry with my brother. I'm sorry. You have every right to be mad. What can I do about this? Do you want to meet in person? Blah, blah, blah. And she will not respond to any of my messages. My brother can't come to holiday meals now. He looks like he's aged 20 years. I mean, it's. It's turned into a horrible.

[James]

Big thing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And.

[Holly]

And I don't know. I don't. I realized. What? I realized the texts were wrong. I take 100 accountability for that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But. I know. But, Holly. But listen, this isn't about those text messages. That was seven years ago. Yeah, it's not about. You got to let those go, you know?

[Holly]

Well, I can't because I'm getting beat over the head with them constantly. Because that's what she says is her reasoning.

[Dr. John Deloney]

She won't talk to you.

[Caller]

She doesn't. She.

[Holly]

I'll walk by her and talk to her. She literally will not look at me.

[Caller]

Or speak to me.

[Holly]

And she does the same thing to my mom, who never sent any text messages.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And then let it be. Let it be known that it's not about the text messages. Yeah, she is going through whatever she's going through. Or let me put it this way. This is kind of a crass way to say it, but you're not the star of her story.

[Holly]

And I. I do realize that. I think there's something much deeper.

[Dr. John Deloney]

There might be. There might be. But here's what I'll tell you. You've done the right thing. You Reached out to her directly on multiple occasions. You've taken the high road and said I screwed up. And behavior is a language she has communicated loud and clear through her silence. I don't want anything to do with you.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so the next thing to. For you to do with this is to be real sad that you lost your brother. And to grieve the fact that you have a living brother who doesn't want anything to do with you.

[Holly]

And he says he's completely torn. He says he hates. He knows that, you know, he thinks she's wrong for not being more forgiving, but he can't make her do anything.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That she is not exactly right.

[Holly]

You know, which is true. Yeah, I agree. There's. You can't make anybody do anything.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And he can have a grown up choice of. This is no way even close to the same thing. But as a family, we chose not to travel this year. But I, my son and I ended up going on like almost a week long trip over the, over the holiday break. It wasn't as a rejection of my wife or my wife wasn't rejecting her family or my family. There's nothing like what y' all are experiencing. But I had a grown up choice to make saying, hey, I still want to go do these few things.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And we, it was, it was awesome for everybody and we missed each other. And so your brother does have a grown up choice to make which is, I can't make you come to these lunches. I still miss my family. I'm gonna go to the lunch. He can do that.

[Holly]

He did that for a while. Well, it kind of progressed for like them coming to the holidays together with her sitting on the couch on her phone, literally not making eye contact or speaking.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, can we just, just stop? Leave her alone. Yeah, just leave her alone.

[Caller]

It's just so. It's just like I don't know how.

[Holly]

She can respect him or love him and note seeing what this is doing to him.

[Caller]

This isn't he.

[Holly]

That my brother very much wants us to be. Okay, whatever that that looks like. I do not expect any to be holding hands and skipping through the tulips or anything at this point, believe me. But it's really breaking him down. And it's hard for me to watch and it's hard for me to watch my mom be completely dissed at every turn and.

[Caller]

But I, I guess what you're saying.

[Holly]

Is, yeah, that's all good and fine and true, but it is what it is and I have to.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's not good and fine. But it is what it is.

[Kelly]

This.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so the choice y' all have is, do we really cherish the time when we get our. When our brother comes and we don't sit there in the corner if she shows up on the couch on her phone and side eyeing her be like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe she. We are just delighting in our brother. Yeah. Our. In Our. In your mom's son.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Holly]

I'm very much trying to. I really don't get that opportunity hardly anymore, but he does go by and check on my mom, so she gets.

[Caller]

She.

[Holly]

At least.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's amazing.

[James]

Good.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's amazing. Yeah. I would not be interested in spending time with people who hate my wife.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so I wonder if there's a season in the same way you asked her to forgive you for sending text messages seven years ago. What if you wrote her a letter that you will, good God, never send, where you just say, I forgive you. I'm setting you down because you're carrying the cinder block that is your imagination of her with you everywhere, and it's killing you.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's not affecting her at all.

[Caller]

I know. Right?

[Holly]

You're.

[Caller]

You're right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Set it down. Stop carrying her around with you. Your brother chose her, and he's continuing to wake up every day and choose her over and over again. And no amount of hate, no amount of side eye, no amount of mad, no amount of picking apart every action she takes or doesn't take is changing anything other than it's killing you.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Set it down. Decide to write your brother a letter once a week, send it og in the mail with a stamp, and only tell him some cool stuff that's going on in your life.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Because what's the alternative?

[Holly]

I. Yeah. Apparently there's not been banging my head against the wall for seven years now.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes. And all you have is a concussion.

[Holly]

Better. It's getting worse.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes. You just have a concussion from it. Stop hitting your head on the wall.

[Holly]

And. And I know you can't fully give advice from his point of view because, you know, you don't know all of their lives and all that, but I guess there's always this point of me where I hear, not only on your show, but just in general. And I believe. I truly do believe that obviously, your spouse is supposed to be number one. I understand that. I've always understood that. But I also feel like sometimes people use it to their advantage. Like, I feel like it's like, even if they're having horrible Behavior or whatever. And they come in and they kind of wreck people. People's families. And I just wondered from my brother's perspective, like, if he can say, hey, I'm going to go have lunch with them every once in a blue moon or something to that effect. But he goes home and there's hell to pay. What does he. I. That's my main concern is he has held a pay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

If he doesn't go. Yeah, he can't win. Yeah, he can't win. And so if he doesn't come, if you'll invite him and he says, I can't make it, say, we love you. We're really going to miss you. Have an awesome weekend. And then if you put your phone down and turn it off and sob your eyes out because you miss your brother, that's the next right move. Because the turmoil in that exchange is inside of you. And you can choose to. We're just not going to invite him anymore. Okay. Or we're going to keep inviting him and we're going to risk getting told no over and over again.

[Holly]

And she's welcome, too. That's the thing.

[Caller]

Like, she.

[Holly]

If she walked in today and never said she was sorry, but just started being halfway civil, I'd be great. Good.

[James]

Let's move forward.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. That's not going to happen.

[Holly]

I mean, I know that's not going to happen.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. Set her down.

[James]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I'm confident that your brother knows that if you ever. If he ever knocked on your door in the middle of the night saying, I need a place to stay, you'd be. He'd be welcome. He knows that. Yeah, but you're taking.

[Holly]

I guess it is just grieving because it's just, you know, my son doesn't have an uncle. I don't get to see my niece. But it's just.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes, all of those things are true. Send pictures of your son in the mail.

[James]

Oh.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What you want to establish is not a decade of I told you so and I can't believe you and she's the worst because nobody wants to engage with that.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No behavior has ever changed long term through complaining and nagging your way to something.

[Holly]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What you want is 10 years from today on of I always kept showing up for you. I sent you a letter every week. I sent you a picture of our. Of your nephew every other week. And then when your nephew. When Your son is 18 and he says, where's uncle so? And so, you can then say, man, he's struggling. I tried and I'M gonna. I'm gonna be a person of character. I'm not gonna get down in the mud and they get mad at everybody that I'm dirty.

[James]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Here's the thing. I think. I think. I think all your anger and frustration, it's not even anger. It's rage. You're mad at this woman. I think all of that is protecting you from how sad you feel that you had this amazing relationship with your brother and he chose some to go a different direction. It's heartbreak.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Let yourself be sad and then go do the next right thing, which might be. You know what? This is what you've been asking for for the better part of a decade. I'm going to stop annoying you. I'm going to stop reaching out or I'm not going to lose you. I want you to know my nephew. My nephew's going to write you letters, too. I'm going to send you a letter every other week forever. You can do that, too. But this is not about the text messages. Stop with that story. The next move is yours. But I think the next right move for you is a season of just being sad. I miss my brother. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Sometimes it can feel like everyone else's love lives are perfect. Little Hallmark movies. But here's the truth. Married, dating, or single? Everyone. Everyone is still figuring out how to do life and relationships well. I've been married for 23 and a half years. Both my wife and I have PhDs, and we're still trying to figure out how to keep our marriage rolling down the track. And both of us have benefited greatly from our times with a good therapist. No matter if you just met someone or if you've been married forever like me, therapy can help you find your way. What you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some of the pressure off yourself and build a stronger relationship. Whether for individuals or couples, therapy is an opportunity to identify what's getting in the way and help remove any blockers. And for all of this, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with the licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions through the platform. And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime at no additional cost. When it comes to love and relationships, everyone is still finding their way. Find yours. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com DeLoney all right, we're back. What's up, Kelly?

[Kelly]

All right, so over the holidays, I was reading through the comments on our Ask Me anything that came out on Christmas Eve.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Ah, okay. People watched people watch that?

[Kelly]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, they didn't.

[Kelly]

Yeah, they did. I don't know that they all watched it on Christmas Eve, but they watched it. And there was an overwhelming, overwhelming question about something you said, and I thought it was worth bringing up here.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, yeah. I don't even know it's coming.

[Kelly]

No, he doesn't. I haven't told him this, y'.

[Caller]

All.

[Kelly]

So there was confusion, dismay, disbelief, and anger. A lot of anger.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Nice.

[Kelly]

Over your comment that you and Sheila don't know who the other voted for.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, why?

[Kelly]

So I'll give you the. The main thing that we heard, some people just were like, that's just crap. That's, you know, that's fine. But the people that actually had valid thoughts, the main issue that they felt was if I can't talk about these kind of things with my spouse, the one person that is supposed to be my safe place.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Ah, gotcha.

[Kelly]

Then we're. We're keeping things from each other or we're, we're not being true to who we are, that kind of thing. And I understand that we've been talking about it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Kelly]

So let me go with yes, run with that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So, a, we talk about politics all the time in my house. All the time. And I have 99.9999-9999. Sure. Who my wife voted for and vice versa. Very clear. The reason. And this actually started. It's a good question. I should have been more clear. It started all the way back when I was working with graduate students and everyone was always peppering me with, who did you vote for? Who did you not vote for? Why don't you tell us? Are you a coward or whatever? So the way I avoided that conversation was I told my wife, I'm not going to ask you who, who you win and click the vote for. And you don't ask me. And she was like, okay. So that I could tell my students, I don't even talk. I, I keep that for me. And I'll also say this inside my house with my marriage, like, there's. We talk about everything. So rest assured, my wife has told me I make things very uncomfortable when people come visit, and I just assume they all talk about everything, too. The number of times people have been at my house and I'm like, oh, y' all never had that conversation. Whoops. So we're good in my house. But I've also found this over the last decade, especially when it comes to voting. People care less about. I'm making a broad statement. People care less about. I have this set of principles that I'm for, and I have this set of things that I'm against, and I'm going to lay these things out. People are interested in being on the winning team. I want my person to have won. And so instead of saying, I don't like this or I don't like this, I want to be on the winning side. I think that shifts a lot of politics talk. And so I won't engage with people who are interested in defining everything I am and all the things I'm not by that one button that I pushed in this room and in my little cubicle or whatever. And by the way, I'll also say the last two times I voted, I took my son in with me because I wanted him to see who I was voting for. And we talked about why. So it's not like this big, but when it comes in the house, it's been a lot. It's probably been more than a decade now. It's been longer than that. Geez, probably 15 years. We just. I don't be like, okay, who'd you put? Who'd you push the button for? I'm pretty sure. I knew. I'm pretty sure. And vice versa. But it allows me to. When I'm out in public, when I'm in for, like, forever, I could say, dude, I even tell my wife who I pushed that. That button for. I did tell my adolescent child. And so if you want to go, he probably wouldn't tell anybody anyway. So that's the answer. That's the true answer to that. Do you go home? You're like, I voted for no.

[Kelly]

And I guess if my wife asked.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Me, I would tell her. I don't. At least don't have to each other.

[Kelly]

I mean, I have. I mean, I very clearly know where my husband stands and. And I'm probably a bit more of an enigma in it than he is, but I think he also knows like that he, you know, 99.9999 sure of where I voted.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Kelly]

But no, I don't go home and go. I hit this one or checked this one or whatever. So no, that makes sense.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So not a question that we ask in my house. I guess it's. I get it. I get the confusion. But yeah, we. But. But again, in my House. We debate personalities and we debate principles. We don't try to see which team the other person's on. Does that make sense?

[Kelly]

Yeah, I think the, the question that our listeners had about it was, I think if they took it as. We don't talk about this at all.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, God. We talk about everything in the house who we can't stand. People act like idiots, people act like morons, people aren't telling the truth. Like, we talk about all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, no, we talk about there's. There. I can't think of a thing in my house that we don't talk about. Probably too much, but that's just a question we don't ask. And it started from self protection with my students, but over the years it has been. That just is a question that I throw all this other baggage at you if I know what button you pushed with no context, no meaning. No. I felt like I had two bad options. I feel like I had two great options. None of that. It's just a way to divide the world up. And I refuse to give that to people. And my. One of my favorite things about what we've created here is nobody knows where we stand. And that to me is the most helpful thing. When you show up sitting with a hurting person, which is, hey, I'm glad to see you, and none of this other stuff matters. I'm happy that you're here. And so I don't know. That's. That's my thing. But, yeah, no, we talk about everything in our house, but we don't ask that question. Love you guys. Bye.