My Wife and I Live Like Roommates

Summary

The Dr. John Delony Show

Episode: "My Wife and I Live Like Roommates"
Date: September 8, 2025
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. John Delony answers caller-driven questions on relationships and mental health, focusing on deeply personal and challenging situations. The show begins with a man named Paul struggling with emotional and physical disconnect in his 30+ year marriage. Other callers address setting boundaries with family members who live differently and the nuanced experience of grieving tragedies that don’t affect you directly. Throughout, Dr. Delony provides honest, empathetic advice, leaning on vulnerability, self-reflection, and clear communication.

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Main Themes & Discussion Points

1. Living Like Roommates: Addressing Emotional and Physical Disconnection in Marriage

(Paul’s Call – Pittsburgh)

• Paul’s Situation:

  • Happily married "for the most part" for over 30 years.
  • Financially stable, three children grown and independent.
  • Since becoming empty nesters, Paul has sought to rekindle romance and intimacy, but his wife is uninterested.
  • They lead largely separate lives at home, sleeping in different rooms and rarely conversing; feels more like “two people that happen to live in the same building.” (02:01 – 02:44)

• Efforts to Reconnect:

  • Paul has tried date nights, trips, shared hobbies (even joining her for power yoga and learning mahjong).
  • Despite efforts, his wife shuts down conversations about intimacy and becomes defensive or irritated. (04:08 – 05:20)

• Dr. Delony’s Insights:

  • Lack of Conversation Is the Core Issue:
    • “The thing that concerns me the most at this point is a lack of a conversation. And it sounds like she is very avoidant.” (03:17)
  • Reframing the Approach:
    • Suggests focusing less on “getting things back” and more on “who do we want to be in the next 10-15 years?”
    • Notes that the “backward-facing” mindset can worsen feelings of loss for partners especially affected by menopause and aging.
    • Raises the tough possibility: “I’m hearing a woman who doesn’t like you. Why would she not like you?” (06:32)
  • Friendship Before Intimacy:
    • Emphasizes the loss of friendship as a root issue: “Beneath the sex for me that’s breaking my heart for you is y’all aren’t friends anymore.” (13:31)
    • Encourages honest “I statements” to invite conversation: “My heart’s broken, because I feel like you don’t like me. Am I unlikable?” (11:47)
  • The Scariest Question:
    • Points out that the hardest questions are often necessary for real progress: “Anytime there’s a terrifying question, that’s usually the question that needs to get put on the table.” (13:31)

• Notable Quotes:

  • “If she liked you, she would at least talk to you about, ‘Hey, I don’t feel good in my own body…’ She would have that conversation. She won’t even entertain it.” – Dr. John Delony (09:53)
  • “Sex often says, ‘You’re okay, we’re okay.’ And absent of that… there’s this nagging question, like, what’s wrong with me?” – Dr. John Delony (11:04)
  • “How do I become more likable? Not more sexually attractive, or how can we have more sex, but how can I become your friend again?” – Dr. John Delony (12:23)

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2. Family Boundaries and Navigating Different Values

(Riley’s Call – Nashville)

• Riley’s Situation:

  • Torn between supporting her older sister (recently involved in a throuple and living a different lifestyle) and protecting her own young son (2 years old).
  • Experiences discomfort with her sister’s current relationship choices and struggles to maintain boundaries for her child’s safety when the family visits.
  • Misses the closeness she once shared with her sister; feels their bond is fading as values and lifestyles diverge. (17:22 – 23:46)

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Dr. Delony validates Riley’s grief over losing the sense of her “old” sister, and acknowledges her reasonable concern for her son's safety.
  • Points out the importance of separating grief about the relationship from value-based disagreements.
  • “You’re mourning the fact that you loved your sister’s wife… and then this whole other thing happened.” (21:38)
  • Suggests Riley use “I statements” to set boundaries (“I just don’t let my kid have sleepovers where I don’t know the other kids or adults... that’s on me. Period.” (30:13)), not to make it about lifestyle judgment.
  • Warns against letting the need for her sister's approval drive her decisions: “You’re still desperate for your sister to approve of you and you have to stop.” (31:05)

• Action Steps for Riley:

  • Grieve the loss of the relationship as it was, and consider reaching out with vulnerability by expressing “I miss my sister.”
  • Own her parenting boundaries without engaging in debates over ethics or lifestyle: “I’m very protective of my son, and I don’t let him spend the night where there’s going to be just kids I don’t know…” (30:13)
  • Decide whether to maintain contact out of authentic desire versus obligation or guilt.

• Memorable Exchanges:

  • “Friends don’t agree with everything. Friends… still friends, same team. You being able to take responsibility…starts with saying, ‘I want to be someone that I love and that I respect.’” – Dr. John Delony (33:12)

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3. Grieving Tragedies Distant From You & Social Media Judgment

(Joshua’s Call – Fayetteville, AR)

• Joshua’s Situation:

  • Feels deeply grieved over a tragic Texas flood at Camp Mystic, though not directly affected.
  • Struggles with guilt—worries his sadness is self-centered, and fears being perceived like those on social media who “make tragedy about them.” (35:18 – 36:25)

• Dr. Delony’s Insights:

  • Explores the roots of guilt: “It sounds like your chief fear is that other people are judging you as harshly as you judge others.” (36:54)
  • Shares wisdom from experience: “Loss is loss.” (37:30)
  • Encourages grieving authentically—there’s no right or wrong way to process second-hand loss.
  • Advises Joshua to step away from social media, connect directly with those affected, and focus on concrete support.
  • “If somebody chooses to take that response and put it all over social media, I’m not going to consume it, but I’m not going to spend one second trying to dig into their motive.” (42:56)

• Healthy Grieving Practices Suggested:

  • Write unsent letters to those lost as a way to process feelings.
  • Direct time, money, or action to support victims or community organizations.
  • Use grief as an opportunity for gratitude and presence with one’s own loved ones: “Go hug (your kids) in the dark… be sad. And be grateful, too.” (42:08)

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4. Public Shaming & Social Media “Piling On”

(Closing Segment with Kelly, Producer)

• Topic:

  • Addressing recent hateful online comments directed at a previous caller.
  • Dr. Delony and Kelly condemn the cruelty and anonymous judgment found in online spaces, especially when callers share vulnerable stories.

• Key Quotes:

  • “People are so brave behind a screen and a keyboard… it was stuff you would never say to someone’s face.” – Kelly (50:07)
  • “If that makes you feel better to pile onto somebody… go talk to somebody, because you need some help.” – Dr. John Delony (51:14)

• Takeaway:

  • The show is a safe space for vulnerability, not judgment.
  • Listeners are encouraged to “just scroll another direction” rather than participate in public shaming.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Paul’s Call (Roommate Marriage): 01:11 – 15:00
• Riley’s Call (Family Boundaries): 17:22 – 34:20
• Joshua’s Call (Vicarious Grieving & Social Media): 34:51 – 47:46
• Discussion on Public Shaming & Comments: 47:46 – 52:00

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Overall Tone & Final Thoughts

Dr. John Delony brings compassion, honesty, and practical wisdom to difficult mental health and relationship questions. He encourages direct conversation (“the scariest question is the one that must be asked”), self-ownership, and kindness both with oneself and others. The episode flows between deeply personal coaching and broader cultural observations, creating a rich resource for anyone facing similar struggles in marriage, family, or the challenge of being human in a complicated world.

Transcript

[A]

So I've been happily married for a little over 30 years. I've been wanting to get things heated up a little bit again, and my wife is pretty much not interested in that anymore. Most days I'll come home and, you know, I've pretty much been replaced by a tablet and a cell phone.

[B]

Correct. The thing that concerns me the most at this point is what's going on. What's going on? This is John with the Doct John Deloney show, taking your calls from all over the planet on your mental and emotional health, your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. I'm just teasing this humongous news. A few weeks ago, I launched the Together app by the doc by. It's in the App store. Together by Dr. John Deloney. It's an app for your marriage. I'm not going to say anything else about it, but you can go get it right now. It's intentionally inexpensive. It's intentionally awesome, and, and we've run thousands of people through it already, and it'll change your marriage. Go check it out in the App store. All right. Let's go out to Pittsburgh and talk to Paul. What's up, Paul?

[A]

Hey, John, how are you? I'm taking my call this morning.

[B]

Of course, man. Thanks for calling in, my brother. How are you?

[A]

I'm doing fine, but I have a question for you. So I've been happily married for the most part, my wife for a little over 30 years. We're financially well off. We've done followed Dave's plan for our entire marriage, raised three kids who are now out of the house and being contributing members of society. The question is that since we've become empty nesters, I've been one of wanting to try to get back to maybe a little bit more romance, maybe get things heated up a little bit again. And my wife is pretty much not interested in that anymore.

[B]

How the conversations gone?

[A]

Not very well. I mean, it's, you know, I try to do the things that, you know, try to, to woo my wife again, you know, back to our old dating years where try to have date nights, go out to dinner, movies, concerts, that kind of thing. Even gone on trips to Europe and, and try to rekindle things, get things going. But every time I bring up the thought of us being together again, she kind of doesn't really want to talk about it. I just. And it's gotten to the point where, you know, we're at home, we're in separate rooms and separate beds, and quite honestly, you know, it's Gone beyond being roommates. Now it's more like two people that happen to live in the same building.

[B]

Where else is this showing up, Paul? And by the way, I appreciate you having the courage to call. Most men wouldn't have the guts to do this, so I appreciate you having the courage to call. I know this is happening to millions of households all over the country based on how, what people write in. So thank you for calling.

[A]

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, John. Because this is kind of difficult for me to talk about this. I'm one of those guys who likes to take care of everything himself. You know, it's my, my vocation is kind of like that kind of thing, you know, engineering type background. And, you know, I'm a problem solver.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

So it's kind of hard to talk about this, but thanks for, thanks for helping me out.

[B]

You bet, ma'. Am. So. So I'm trying to think where to start even. I guess the thing that concerns me the most at this point is a lack of a conversation. And it sounds like she is, is very avoidant. Tell me about that.

[A]

Yeah, so most, most days I'll come home and, you know, I've pretty much been replaced by a tablet and a cell phone.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

She's in her room, you know, working with her, watching, watching shows, talking on the cell phone. So there's not much conversation. Try to do different things with her, you know, to get her out of the house. Do things. We've been done power yoga with her on, on weekends, learn how to play mahjong, try to get interest in other things, things that we have common to get things going again.

[B]

Dude, you're really like putting in the time, man. If you're doing power yoga, way to go. Yeah.

[A]

I'll tell you what, when I started that, John, it was like, oh, come on, this can't be that hard. But I'll tell you what, respect to everybody who does that, because it's, it's not easy.

[B]

Mad respect to the yogites, man. It's tough stuff.

[A]

Absolutely. It takes a lot of strength, I'll tell you. But so trying to engage in things like that, but when it comes time to us being together to have a little bit more of a relationship there, just like a, you know, the business part of the marriage, I guess I'll call it. You know, we take, I take care of the bills, you know, go to work, help with the chores. But when it comes time to husband and wife time, she kind of gets defensive, doesn't want to. Tells me she's not Interested in that anymore. I understand, you know, we're in our early 60s and menopause has a play in that.

[B]

Sure. But, but also there's some, there's some, there's some. There's multiple options for, for walking through perimenopause and menopause these days when it comes to how well you feel your sexual intimacy, I mean, all that stuff. So there's a number of avenues to explore if somebody's interested in those explorations.

[A]

And when, when I go down that path to talk about those things and that she just kind of gets a little bit upset, little. Maybe acts irritated, annoyed, doesn't really want to talk about it.

[B]

So here, here's my deeper question and there's an outcropping here. Two things I'm hearing. One is you've made the comments back to, back to, back to. And my challenge to you would be forward looking. Who do we want to be for the next 10 years, next 15 years versus how do we get this thing back? The actions may be exactly the same, but that future orientation. For somebody who feels like I'm losing control of my body, which is what I hear from women in perimenopause and menopause, my body is, is leaving me the body. I knew this idea that I'm going to get back can be seen as. I'll never get that body back. I'll never be that young spring chicken. I'm never going to be attractive again. All those things versus I'm in love with you now and into the future. Or I'm attracted to you, which is even different than that. I want to be with you now and into the future. Though you may have said all those things and done all those things, that, that orientation sometimes is huge. Here's the second thing. If you. She's not on the phone. So I just got you right, Being reflective. I'm hearing a woman who doesn't like you, why would she not like you?

[A]

That's. Boy, that's a, that's a difficult one for me to answer because I don't, I don't see me.

[B]

Okay, but if you had to guess, like if would she say for 40 years he hasn't listened to me and he's just problem solved over me and I got the kids out of here. Now I want to live my life or I had to do what he wanted to do, live in his town. I gave up my life for him and now it's my like is what would she say as to the reason? Like, I just don't want to be in the same room with you. I don't want to see the bedroom with you because that. That's beneath love and that's beneath, you know, duty, and that's beneath sex and intimacy. This sounds like somebody who just doesn't like you. And I know that's harsh to say. It's probably the harshest thing I could say to another man, but it sounds like she doesn't like you. Where does that come from? You think.

[A]

That'S it, John? I mean, other than talking about intimacy, very pleasant. We, like I said, we do things together. We go out to lunches, dinners, breakfasts on Saturdays. It kind of seems like I'm more custodial to the relationship where the things that she seems to be interested now are with her old friends, with some acquaintances she's had in town, some of the other activities she's involved in. So it's not like I don't get the vibe that she doesn't like me. I. I feel more like it's. It's kind of what's. I don't want to say, for lack of a better term, deteriorated. Like I said, instead of being a husband and wife pair, it's more like now we're two people that happen to live in the same building.

[B]

I know, and I know what I'm saying is hard to hear, but if you ran back what you just said, that's basically you just said what I said in a different way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She likes being with other people. She likes being with her friends. She prefers their company. She will check the boxes. She'll check the boxes with you. She will feed herself. She will live in a home. She'll be. Do things like laundry and. Or dishes, because that's the function of the house. But when it comes to who does she like being around, that's not you.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right.

[B]

And that, like, Let me say this. If you talk to any marriage therapist who's been doing what they do for a while, the most men can get over sexual infidelity. Men can get over financial infidelity. Men can rarely get over my wife doesn't like me because that's such a core. What is what's wrong about. What's so wrong about me? And for most men, that calls into all the way back to their childhood. What something was wrong with me that I had to go fix. And there's something terrifying about asking that question, which relationally, and this is hard. I would tell you the scariest question to ask is usually the Question that must be asked because, yeah, that's true. Because if she liked you, she would at least talk to you about, hey, I don't feel good in my own body. Sex hurts right now because of menopause, or I'm, I feel like I'm crazy, or I feel like she would have that conversation, she won't entertain it. And her way of deflecting is to get frustrated or angry or annoyed. And then if she can get a benefit out of it, if it can be a trip somewhere, if it can be a meal somewhere, she'll inner chill, endure it. But when it comes to something that intimate, and so that's like the biggest concern here. Lots of 60 year olds, you know, men struggle with erectile dysfunction or women with all sorts of, you know, physical challenges after menopause. This seems to be different because y' all can't even have the conversation. And if I were you, that's where I would start, would be like, hey, I want to have a conversation about our friendship. I don't think you like me anymore. And she, she'll love you. That's just, I get that. But there's a deeper, like, I don't feel like you like me. And if you start with an I statement, it becomes an invitation. And she might get upset and say, I'm going to ask you to not get upset. I'm going to ask you to have this conversation because my, my heart is hurting right now.

[A]

Yeah, that is how I feel. I mean, as you. Yeah, thanks for feeding that back to me because as I, as I hear all you're explaining this, it does make a lot of sense to me. Like, everything we do is, is functional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's, you know, it's cold, it's not intimate.

[B]

That's it. And most, most men, of course, everyone likes sex and everyone likes, like that. But there's something beneath sex that I've come to believe after meeting with so many men and reading so much and just have my own life experience, sex often says, you're okay, we're okay. And absent of that, like it can, I mean, it just gets tough, man. And in your mind, your engineering mind, you've checked every Excel spreadsheet box possible. Finances, money, trips, food, successful kids. And then there's this like, nagging question in your guts, like, what's wrong with me?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I think if you use I statements and ask your wife, hey, as your husband of however many years, 40 years, 30 years, I'm going to ask you to stay present in this conversation. My Heart's broken. Because I feel like you don't like me. Am I, am I unlikable?

[A]

All right. And it's interesting, too. I mean, my, my reactions to the way our situation now is. I mean, brings the frustration, resentment to me because, like, you're saying, I, I don't understand. I feel like I'm, I'm doing what I should do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yet I'm not getting any kind of reciprocation or response or anything.

[B]

Right. And I. This is a. It's going to sound like you're a submissive question, which I think is a great thing, but it might be a. If you ask the question, how do I become more likable? Not more sexually attractive or how can we have more sex? But, yeah, how can I become more likable? How can, how can I become your friend again? That will force it. I'll be quiet. You're my friend, like, but I'm not.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And how do I become your friend again? Because I know that you don't. I, I, I get the sense you don't like me. And I think for anyone listening, I'm just putting myself in your seat, man. I've had that conversation a few times across. I've been married 23 years. I've had that conversation a few times, and it's a nightmare of a, of a question. I'd much rather ask any other question than that.

[A]

And yeah, you're right, because. Because it all starts there. I mean, yeah, everybody's different, but I mean, when you get to the sexual intimacy part of it, that's, that has, has more to do with how you feel about each other.

[B]

Do you like? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's the core. That's, that's what makes that unity of the husband and wife unique.

[B]

Yeah, man. And I know a lot of couples. I say a lot. I know many couples, if you will, that are in their 60s and their 70s. They're not sexually active, but they like each other. They're ridiculous. And the ones that I know, like, personally, I'll give them a hard time, like, are you seriously not doing it? Are about to be dead in, like, 10 years. And they'll laugh, and we all laugh, and they're like, you shut up. But they like each other's company. They, like, they're each other's best friend. And I think the thing here, beneath the sex for me that's breaking my heart for you, is y' all aren't friends anymore. And I think the hardest part for you is you've Done what you knew to do to be a good provider and be a good husband. And those things are ringing hollow because the woman in your life doesn't like you, doesn't want to be around you and doesn't want to sleep next to you, doesn't want to eat next to you unless it's somewhere nice. Doesn't want to, like, be with you. Sexual, like, all those questions. And so I think getting to the bottom of you don't like me. I'd like to be your friend. And we have 30 years left together until we pass away. Like, I want to be your friend. Or the deeper question is, what would need to change in me that would make you like me? Not saying that something wrong with you. You got to go change. But that's a way to ask that question, put on the table and maybe get some deeper things. So that's where I would start, man, anytime. And this is for everybody listening. Anytime there's a scary, scary, terrifying question. That's usually the question that needs to get put on the table. And sometimes you can't just drop it like a grenade. But getting to that scariest question is often where the healing and or the revelation in a relationship challenge is. We come back. A mom is torn between supporting her sister's lifestyle and protecting her son. All right, listen, if you're anything like me, you have recently felt it. That not so subtle shift. Right? Summer's winding down, the days are getting shorter, schools back in action, and Q4 work stresses are hitting hard, hard. And if you're like me, you're wanting to numb out more and more. We have to be intentional about protecting our sleep, because here's the truth. How you sleep is a massive part of how well you feel or not. When your mind and body aren't resting, your mind and body can't reset. One of the most important things I do to stay mentally sharp and emotionally steady and able to show up for my wife and my kids and my team is get good sleep. And that's why I've been talking and talking and talking about Helix mattresses. Helix builds mattresses made for you, not the generic average sleeper for you. So whether you're a hot sleeper, a side sleeper, a back sleeper, or somewhere in between, Helix designs mattresses around your needs. Get online and take the Helix sleep quiz just like I did. It takes, like, two minutes, and they're going to match you with exactly the right mattress. Right now, my audience can get an exclusive 27% off during Helix's extended Labor Day sale. Go to helixsleep.com deloney for 27% off site wide, that's Helix H E l I x helixsleep.com Deloney and tell them you heard about this right here on this show with Helix. Better sleep starts right now. All right. Hey, take two seconds and hit the subscribe button, especially if you're watching this on YouTube. I've got some big YouTube subscription goals this year and I want to try to hit them. And we just crossed 100 million views last month, which means only a fraction of you all are stopping to hit the subscribe button. So if you'll stop, hit the subscribe button, it would mean the world to me. Thank you so, so much. Let's go down the street here in Nashville and talk to Riley. What's up, Riley?

[C]

Hi, John. Or hi, Dr. DeLoney. How are you?

[B]

Oh, you can call me John. That's what.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

It's nicer than what all my friends call me. No, you're good. You're good.

[C]

Great. First, I just want you to know I'm a really big fan, so thank you for taking my call.

[B]

You got it. Got it.

[C]

So I. This is kind of a complex issue, so feel free to cut me off if I'm rambling too much.

[B]

Cool. Let it rip.

[C]

Yes. So I am torn between supporting my sister, who I used to be very close with, but it was mostly in my early 20s, teenage years that we were very close. There's a fairly large age gap between us, about 10 years. And then I feel like as I've matured and I became a mom and I got married, I have matured and I feel like she almost hasn't. I have a son and we live in different states. We don't see each other every day, but our children are very close. And I would like to maintain their relationship for my son's purposes and also just for my parents because, you know, I don't want to tear the family apart. However, I do get torn a lot because our values are very different. Just to give you one example, she's married to a woman who she's been married to for a really long time. And I love this woman so much. She feels like a sister to me and they have kids together. But recently she. Well, not recently. It's probably been about a year. She opened up to us that they are in a throuple and then that kind of has developed into it sounds like maybe they're at a point now where just my sister and this individual are dating and my sister in law is no Longer involved, but I'm not totally sure because she's very difficult for me to talk to. We have a really hard time discussing the issues. She kind of lives in, like, a victim mentality. And for me personally, like, I'm a very positive person, but I think that, you know, and we used to be able to talk about everything, but recently I. I feel like I've matured and grown and learned more about setting boundaries, and I'm still learning how to use those boundaries, but sometimes I come across as very cold towards her, and I don't mean to. So I know that it's hard for her to talk to me as well as I have a hard time talking to her because she can get very mean and, like, uses very harsh language sometimes that I'm just, you know, it's just impossible to talk to her. She kind of bulldozes you kind of person.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

So basically, I would like my son to maintain a relationship with her children, and I'd like her to have a relationship with my son. But I also am not comfortable with a thruffle dynamic. I think that marriage is sacred, and I think that if you have issues within your marriage, it's better to resolve them than to bring in a third and kind of treat that person like a band aid. I also feel nervous bringing my child over to her house because I don't know this person. I don't know that person's children who are also around. And I want to. It's my job to protect my child. He's very young. He's only 2, and, you know, living in different states, when we're in the same location, it's, you know, we want quality time together because we don't see each other a ton. And so there's often, like, a request for my son to sleep over, or, like, there's times where it would be nice to just be able to drop my son off at her house to watch him, because that would be helpful. But I also, like, don't know that I trust that dynamic anymore to just drop my son off, because I don't know those children. I don't know her partner, her new partner. And I also worry about the influence that this could have on my son. Granted, he's only two, but this. I don't want this to be normalized. And when you're starting it off young, it is going to be normalized if he's always around it. So I think that that mostly covered everything. There's a ton of other things, but I feel like that's A good starting point.

[B]

No, Riley, tell me more. That was a lot.

[C]

So tell you my childhood trauma now. No, I'm just kidding.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I'm going to take some, I'm going to take just a big old handful of spaghetti and start throwing it up against the wall and you tell me if what I heard in that conversation is real. Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Or if it's accurate. It's a better way to say it. Thing I heard, number one is you're mourning the fact that you loved your sister's wife. Y' all had a great relationship and for whatever reason they've broken up, gotten divorced, added a third but complicated. A situation that you were really comfortable with. And so there's some sense of mourning the end of your sister's marriage.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's really accurate.

[B]

And your sister in law you loved, like she was awesome.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's, let's put that aside. So that's me throwing spaghetti up. Number one. So there's a morning of. I liked the way this thing was going and I liked the people in my. Like we, we talk all the time. Like marry somebody that the rest of us will like too. Right. And your sister did. Her wife was awesome. And then this whole other thing happened. Then number two, you're concerned about the sexual ethic of adding multiple people. I don't know who's in that house. And I don't like the, I don't like the threesome or throuple. And for those who don't know what that is, that is when basically when a married couple or a dating couple decides to add three. So everybody's dating each other and equal parts or some equal parts or some form of an arrangement. And for you that's too, that's, that's. I don't, I don't want to be around that. Right. I have, I have ethical issues with that, that arrangement. That's number two. The third one is I'm not dropping my two year old off in a world that I don't. That's got kids coming and going, other adults coming and going. There's just no way. And then the fourth one is, I freaking miss my sister. I can't hang out with her. We can't talk anymore. You mentioned several times about how you're wiser or you've gotten more wisdom. Like there's just this dynamic that each of you feels above the other and she probably feels more enlightened than you and you're with your simpleton mind and you feel more ethical than her. Like, but at the end of that, underneath it all, I can miss my sister.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So those four things, do they nail it a little bit?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's accurate.

[B]

Okay, so I think the challenge with this is. And then you add the politics on top of the throuple and you add, if you're a person of faith, like how that intertwines with everything. And then the. You're. You're the odd man out because you love your sister's wife, but you don't like this arrangement. And so you, your one group of your friends doesn't think that even the gay marriage is okay. And then the other group of friends thinks anything go like, so you find yourself all by yourself in this. Right.

[C]

I don't feel like I have anyone in my life that has issues with like a gay marriage. It's. Yeah, it's simply just the throttle. I, I am a person of faith, but I'm not super involved in the church community. Okay, cool.

[B]

Awesome. All right, so. So I missed that one. So I threw that one up against the wall. I just didn't stick. It fell on the floor. So there we go. So I. The challenge here is all of this gets mushed up into one big knot in the middle of your chest. And the reason I think it's important to pull it out is like, to like pull it apart is the scariest thing of all of this is. And I want to hone in on this one first is the safety of your kid. And I don't think that a two year old being around an aunt that has different life choices is just gonna. Is gonna imprint this on them or normalize it. I don't think that. But.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I am worried about the safety of your kid coming and going. I would not drop my kid off in a house that's where I don't know the kids. I don't know the, the partner. I don't know. I wouldn't do that. Absolutely wouldn't.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And that's just me being around kids, a. Working with young people my whole career and hearing the stories of abuse from Vi. Not from the friend at the sleepover, but the friend's brother or the friend's brother's friend. Right. And just the further that extended circle goes, the less safety there is. And so, yeah, I think you are dead on on that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Then I think you gotta grieve the, the loss of your relationship with your sister.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know how you make your way back to that beneath all of These different layers. But sometimes it's just a matter of a phone call or a voice, text, or even a text message that says, I miss my sister. And that may. That may not. That may not respond well at all. That may be, like, who knows how she responds to that? But I hate that for you.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's. I feel like there's been a lot of. This has been. The distance between us has been growing since before the throuple even.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

You know, I just feel like. I don't know. I just feel like we just have grown into different people. We've had a lot of different life experiences, especially given our large age gap.

[B]

And you have, and you should have. The challenge is, like, letting go of the fantasy that we're still little girls in the house together, which you'll never really work. You had a big gauge gap. But. But, like, this idea that sisters are supposed to have very similar lives. And there's this other woman in my life who's also my sister, who has a very different world than me, but I miss her.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's letting go of some of the stories that we tell ourselves about what sisters are supposed to be like and what hanging out is supposed to look like and what our lives are supposed to be like, but letting reality kind of drive this, which is. We're. How many years apart did you say?

[C]

About 10?

[B]

Yeah, we're 10 years apart. But I miss my sister. If you. If you sent her a message, just said, hey, I miss you. Like, for the last few years, we've been growing further and further apart. I know I played a role in that, but I miss my sister. Is there a chance we could get together? What would she say to that?

[C]

I think that she would be open to it. I do, because she's, you know, I know she feels the same way. I just worry about what would happen after that. I think that there was a part of my life. I think she's moved on from this, but there was a part of my life where she placed a lot of blame on my husband, saying that he changed me. And that was really hard because you never want your family talking badly about your chosen partner like that. And I think that I hold on to some resentment from that, so that's something I need to work through. But also, I just. I worry that she might pull that on again, and I don't want to do that. You know, I just. I just wish that we could just have, like, a normal sister relationship, like, where we're friends. I just don't feel like we're friends right now. And I don't know that. I don't know that if she wasn't my sister, I don't know that I would choose her as a friend.

[B]

I know. I know with uncertainty that you would not.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the question becomes, what does that mean? And does that mean you grieve this relationship and kind of let it go to the wind?

[C]

It's just hard to imagine doing that because of what that could do to my parents. Like, I don't.

[B]

You haven't done that. Your job isn't to perpetually keep your parents propped up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You probably learned that at a young age, too. But that's not your job.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And if your parents happiness and well being is contingent on their two daughters who are 10 years apart with radically different lives and who have treated each other in different ways over the years, somehow manufacturing or duct taping together some sort of relationship that doesn't make any sense. That's their issue to deal with.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a kindness and being cordial. Right. You don't fist fight at Thanksgiving if mom and dad asks y' all to all come in. But there's a. There's just a reality. We're 10 years apart. We live in different states.

[C]

Mm. Do you think then that, like, it should be, like, a formal conversation of, like. I think that we are living different lifestyles and, like, it's just not something I'm comfortable with my son being around anymore and. Or do you think I should just continue to be cordial and just.

[B]

No, I. I would. I would flip it all the way around. I always want to use I statements whenever I can, and so. Oh. I'm very protective of my son, and I don't let him spend the night where there's going to be just kids I don't know, and other adults I don't know. That's on me. Period. End of story.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't have to get into lifestyle stuff. You don't have to get into dating choices. You don't have to get into the sexual ethics of throuples. You have to get any of that. I don't let my kid do X, Y and Z. Doesn't matter if it's a friend from school. Doesn't matter if it's a friend from church. Doesn't matter if it's a friend from, like, one of your friends. I just don't do that. Oh, he's gonna be fine. He'll be fine. I know, I know. This one's on me. I just don't do that. Period.

[C]

Yeah, period. I think another. Another thing that I'm afraid of is, you know, if there's no one at the house and she's just like, well, it's just. It's just my kids and, you know, my wife at this point, because, you know, the third isn't always there. What I have a fear of is what if something has already happened with one of her kids and what if they do something to my side? I know that's like spiraling, but like, here's, here's.

[B]

Here's what your big fear. Here's what your big fear is. You're still desperate for your sister to approve of you and you have to stop.

[C]

Yeah, I know that's really accurate.

[B]

You have to stop. You're making yourself crazy.

[C]

Mm.

[B]

And if. If you're honest and she has chosen to not be your friend or chosen to just live her own life, and her sister is just like, hey, what about me? What about me? What about me? You have to grieve that, like the loss that it is that you're so desperate for her approval that you're willing to a give her just miles of rent free real estate. In your mind, while you're worrying about things, you're imagining things. And you're imagining things on top of those imaginations, creating story after story after story. You're having imaginary conversations with her where you, like, imagine yourself responding to her and then getting indignant about her response back to you. And none of that stuff has happened. And now you're imagining imaginary potential, maybe abuse of a situation that may have happened. That major man, you are making yourself nuts. And at the end of this, you're just trying to please somebody. And the only way path forward I see is one of two ways. One is you write her a letter, don't send it, but you write her a letter saying, I love you and I wish you the best and I understand you don't want me in your life. May God bless you. And then you weep like you haven't weeped before, wept before. Or you call her and say, I miss my sister. And more importantly, I miss my friend. Can we be friends? And friends don't agree with everything. Friends don't do everything the same way. Friends don't listen to the same music all the time. Friends don't stay up as late as each other. Friends don't drink as much as each other does. Friends don't have the same sexual ethics as each other does or the same like. Like they're like the same things with their kids. They're still friends, same team. And you being able to take responsibility, not well, I would like you, but you do the. I just don't do that with my kids. I miss your wife. I miss your like, I, I, I, I. And that's you taking ownership. And that starts with you saying, I want to be someone that I love and that I respect and that my life isn't going to be about trying to get other people to like me. And that's a hard place to be. Thanks for the call, sister. Thanks for the call. We come back Amanda struggling to grieve a tragedy that didn't directly affect him, but is really weighing on him heavy. Hey, it's Deloney for Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world. Right now, we're juggling work, family, and a million other things. And in all of this chaos, we often forget to pause and reflect and even pray. Creating peace in our life doesn't just happen. We have to choose it. We have to be intentional to make space for it. And that is where Hallow comes in. Hallow provides you amazing opportunities to slow down and, and reconnect with what matters most. One of my favorite features on Hallow is the daily reflections with Jeff Cavins. Because he helps you connect scripture to real life joys and real life challenges, or if you're struggling with anxiety or feeling overwhelmed, Hallow offers mental health meditations and prayers that I have found useful and I use. From healing emotional wounds to establishing healthy habits, these guided prayers give you words of comfort and longing when you're all out of things to say. If you're ready to find some peace in the chaos and some purpose in your day, check out Hallow. And right now, when you sign [e-mail] DeLoney, you get three months for free. That's hallow.com DeLoney for three months for free. All right, let's go to Fayetteville Aransas and talk to Joshua. What's up, Joshua?

[D]

Hey, Dr. John.

[B]

What's up, man?

[D]

Man. Well, I just want to say it's an honor to get to talk to you, and it's kind of weird hearing your voice over the phone and on YouTube.

[B]

I appreciate you calling, man.

[D]

Absolutely. Well, my, my question is, how do I, and really, I guess my family and I grieve something that hasn't directly happened to us in a way, without making it selfish. So I'm referring, you know, to the flooding that happened in Central Texas and the, the tragedy at Camp Mystic.

[A]

It's just.

[D]

It's just weighed really heavily on mine and my wife's heart. And we're not sure. How do we grieve that well, and how do we grieve that appropriately?

[B]

Tell me where the judgment of your grief is coming from.

[D]

I think part of it is just seeing how people have reacted to tragedy, like, on social media in the past, just the way they've made it about. Like, oh, look at me. Look how sorrowful I am. This is all about me. And I just, like, I don't want to be disrespectful to those who have lost loved ones when I haven't. And it almost feels guilty crying over somebody else, losing children who I don't know and have no relationship with. Like, I've cried over friends who've lost people before and have grieved those around me who have. Who have walked through hard times. But I think just having something so distant and grieving so heavily over, it just. It almost feels like I'm not allowed to.

[B]

Yeah. Where does that voice come from, man?

[D]

Like, I think I just get irritated seeing people make tragedy about them and about how they're feeling, and it almost feels like they're trying to shine light on themselves and not show compassion for those around them.

[B]

So can I say something real hard to you?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

It sounds like your chief fear is that other people are judging you as harshly as you judge others. One of the things I've learned, and this comes from a great friend of mine named Link. He. Him and his wife experienced a pretty traumatic pregnancy loss very close to term. And then my wife and I went through one of our miscarriages, which was much earlier in the term. And him and I were talking, and he was on the crisis team with me. He was. He'd just been a good, good mentor of mine. He's ahead of me. He's been being a mental health professional longer than I have. And I remember us talking, and I stopped and I said during our conversation, I said, yeah, I know what we went through is not near as bad as what you and his wife went through. And he stopped me and he said, loss is. Loss is loss. And I'll never forget those three words like hurt and pain is hurt and pain. And when we judge how other people are experiencing, I don't know it there. Here's the deal. There are people who use tragedy for their own personal gain. Politicians, we saw that happen. It's disgusting. Gross. Yeah, they did it within. Within 10 minutes. They're politicizing it. Right. And there's real. If you're. I, I've got friends and family and community members in Texas. I've got family members that were deeply affected by this. Lost every. Like, I've got. I've. I've. I've vested interest in this. And there's real blame to go around. And there's also just. It rained 30ft, like. Right. All that to say, if your heart is with those hurting parents, there's no judgment. Dude, cry your eyes out. I have. My kids have been at a camp ever since that happened. One or both. One of my kids has been away from my house at a camp. I haven't had everybody back in the house yet, and I haven't slept yet. Not well. And so I hope every parent grieves deeply at the loss of somebody else's child. Do I think it can be gross that people put on social media? Yeah. I just don't even pay attention to it. And so my hope is as a parent, you and your wife as parents, I hope you all are kept up at night by the loss of kids. I hope you look around your local community and say, where can we get involved here? I hope you say, I don't know why I'm crying because our kids are okay, but one time this happened or one. This reminds me of a time our friends, kids got lost. And loss is. Loss is lost. Pain isn't some zero. And where can we make sure our communities are safe? Where can we make sure our kids are safe? Where can we send 30 bucks to or 50 bucks or 3,000? Like, where can we get. Do a little bit of put something in the hat to pass around to help out? Like, I think all of those are human experiences. And yet if you're judging how other people are grieving, you're always going to feel judged when you grieve. And so the challenge there is not that you figure out a way to grieve. Right. But that you, in your spirit, decide, I'm going to stop judging people. If they're sad and heartbroken and weeping, I'm going to weep with him, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I think part of that is even more, I think the more social media component than anything else. Like, I think that's where I. I judge more than having personal interactions with people. And I think that's kind of where.

[A]

My folly is, is I don't need.

[D]

To use social media as the gauge for that.

[B]

I think 1000% you're onto something. Or to put it, put it differently now, I'm from Texas, so It's a little bit easier for me. I, I got off of social media and I started making phone calls to people, and that connected me directly to what was going on. And my wife and I are in a, in a silly season of blessing, and we put our money where our mouth is. And my wife got in the car and drove across the state, and I kept the house together while she was down helping family. Like, so, like, you get involved where you can get involved, and if you don't know anybody in Texas and you don't know any, like, you can get off social media and find a local music artist and buy one of the T shirts and put some money down there. And I mean, there's just a million ways to get to be supportive, but I think you're right. And by the way, can I give us all some grace? If somebody's is, There's a tragedy in our kid and kids are lost, we as parents would be nuts if we weren't transfixed to that, trying to figure out ways to make sure our kids don't get lost someday. Yeah. And when 30ft of water rise up in less than 20 minutes or whatever crazy thing happened out there in Texas, it's unnerving because there's not, there's, I mean, there's, there's, they can put sirens in and they can do that kind of stuff. Fine. There's not a lot you can do. And that's a terrifying notion for parents. Is that fair?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. And sometimes I can tell you this, there's a couple of times when I was doing crisis work when I would show up to sit with parents who had lost kids, and I would go in. This is before my daughter was born, but I would go in to my son's room when he was really little. He'd be asleeping, and I would just go hug him in the dark because I just, I, there's nothing I could do. I just needed to, to put my hands on my son and be sad. Yeah. And be grateful, too. Yeah.

[D]

I, I did that after, after we had heard the news and my wife and I were really broken up about it that, that weekend. And just in the evenings, like, I, I, we were out of town and I, I just, like, I couldn't help just looking at my kids and just, just thinking, like, what if that was them?

[B]

I just, that is a, that is a right response of a parent. It's a right response. And if somebody chooses to take that response and put it all over social media, I'm, I'm just Not gonna, I'm not gonna consume it, but I'm not gonna spend one second of energy trying to dig into their mind and spirit about their motive. I'm gonna go on about my day and see where, if any, place I can be of a support or assistance. And if this were to happen in Northern California, I just made up something. I, I know some people there. I'm trying to think of a place. I don't know anybody in South Dakota. I, I wouldn't be able to call somebody. I don't know anybody there. Right. I wouldn't be able to. I mean, I, I wouldn't know the organizations to send money to. I mean, I wouldn't know what to do. And so it's right to feel helpless in my house here in Nashville. It's right to want to hug my kids extra. And all those things are right and good. It's that next step of trying to judge how people are grieving that I'm just, I don't have any, I don't have any use for. I don't have the interest of loss is. Loss is loss. And as David Kessler says, grief is like a fingerprint. It's different for everybody. So people are screaming in the street. I'm going to give that to them. And if they're silent and go into a closet in their house, I'm going to give that to them. And if they want to post about it or blog about, I'm going to give that to him. Because people grieve differently. And I'm going to move on with my life. I will speak out against disgusting politicians that try to use every horrible thing as a way to improve their standing, I think that's gross and I think it's inhumane. But when it comes to moms and dads just grieving the loss of other people's kids, dude, grieve how you want to grieve, man. And yeah, get off social media and then do something in your life. Here's a couple things for grief. Write a letter, put money on the table and go find something to do in your local community. Here's something silly. Get your kids together and get a trash act. And y' all go for a long two hour walk and pick up trash in your neighborhood. Go find an organization in your local community and you and your kids, just for an afternoon, go do a thing. There's something about the. It's a stress cycle. But if you go do a thing, if you go do a hard thing, you go exercise, you go spend some time Serving somebody else. It literally works. The chemicals out of your body, the cortisol and the adrenaline that should fire in every parent when kids are, are under attack. And so finding a way to channel this instead of just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. That would, that would be my highest recommendation there.

[D]

Yeah, I appreciate that.

[B]

And maybe if you want to do something, I used, I used to do this and I just stopped. It became overwhelming. But every time there was a shooting and kids died or every time there was a loss of kids, I would read their name on this show. You can go back to some of the earlier episodes and I wanted people to hear their names and for me personally there's, there's an experience saying their names out loud and recognize them as, as whole beings as. I have a nine year old little girl, man, she would have been in one of those cabins, right. And I was a camp counselor growing up in college. I would have had to make the decision, do I break the window out and walk these kids out here up in neck deep water or do I just ride it out? I mean, I've put myself in that situation several times just as a thought experiment and it's daunting, it's terrifying. Right? All of us have been there and so maybe getting the list of those girls off some media site and writing a letter to each one of them that you'll never send and just let them know, hey, I am going to be the best dad to my kids ever. Wanted you to know your loss reminded me of the importance of life and how precious life is. And I'm going to be the best freaking dad that's ever lived. And my kids, Susie and Jim are going to have, they're going to have a dad that loves them to the moon and back. Right. That may be a way to process that grief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, ultimately, end of all, this call, get off social, get off social media, man. Just literally adds nothing after the initial what's going on. And there is a news aspect to it. I'm gonna get off, I'm gonna get off and just look around my home, look around my neighborhood, look around my community and say where can I be a person of support? So thanks for calling my brother. I'm really grateful for you. We'll be right back. All right, we are back. Real quick. Before we talk about what we have to talk about in light of that last call, there is a couple of. I, I'm just thinking of a couple of opportunities to put money in and buy a T shirt to. If you want to support the flood efforts. My buddy, he's a country music star in Texas named Aaron Watson. You can look him up on social media. He is a great friend, high, high man of character and trust.

[A]

And.

[B]

And he's got a T shirt that he's selling that the proceeds will go directly to that buddies in Bowling for Soup, the old pop punk band. Jarrett and that crew have a T shirt that you can sell. Kelly found one that is supportive of. I've never said this before and will I say it after, but the Astros and the Rangers. Tell me about that.

[E]

So the Astros and the Rangers both create. They. They had a shirt created that has both logos on it, and it says together for Texas that they've been selling at both stadiums and wearing for batting practice.

[B]

Right. So you can get that online. So even if you just want to buy a T shirt and all the proceeds are going to go, T shirts, you know, cost like five or six bucks to make. So if you buy it for 30 bucks, the rest of that money goes to support flood recovery efforts and all kind of stuff. So that's just a couple of things that I'm putting my money towards. And I want to encourage you all to do something. 10 bucks, 20 bucks, 30 bucks, you can donate there to Texas or if you've got more. That's awesome. All right, Kelly. Yes. I got a bone to pick with the Internets.

[E]

So do I.

[B]

We recently had a caller who was going through a nightmare scenario. A, she'd made some poor choices in her life. B, she was really struggling in a profound way. And ultimately, I reached out to you and to Chris, the head of the network here, and said, hey, we need to turn these comments off, or we all check and see if we need to turn these comments off. Because I'd gotten word that there was just some vile, just awful stuff people were piling on to this person. So tell me about what you saw. I didn't even see him. I was driving.

[E]

Yeah. So this happened over the weekend. Got a text from John. He'd gotten a DM from somebody about the comments. So looked at them, and I was shocked at. And I will not repeat the things that were said because we would get taken off the air. Yeah, they were the personal attacks against who she was as a person. The names that she was called. The worst names you can call a woman were in there multiple times.

[B]

Kelly, I'm just kidding. I'm trying to lighten things up a little bit, but, yeah, it was awful.

[E]

It was disgusting. It really was. That A. This was clearly a Woman that was struggling, but who cares? Even if it wasn't, People are so brave behind a screen and a keyboard.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And it was stuff you would never say to someone's face. And it was. It was disgusting. And it really left a bad taste in my mouth. And we turn the comments off. And we'll do that, because we're not going to let people that are brave enough to call into this show get berated like that.

[B]

Right on.

[E]

So if you're listening. And that was you.

[B]

Don't.

[E]

Shame on you.

[B]

Yeah, don't. And that brings into a larger, like, thing in my head. This show's going to come out a month later, but we're just a weekend after the Coldplay incident. Was there some hilarious memes after that? Yes. Like, I laugh. There's some funny stuff out there. But the public pylon, like, the. The. The public shaming, which is as old as time. Right. People getting dragged out to the public square and locked in stock so that everyone could walk by and point at them. Our collective like, ooh, look at them. Is so powerful and yet so disgusting. And here's why. Both of those people who got caught cheating on the jumbotron have kids that cannot show their face anymore. A. Because their parents did something stupid. Fair. In a public setting. Fair. And because we all just decided to go. Look at them. Look at them. Same with. I won't go down the rabbit hole. There's just been so much public shaming, and I think it's a way to make us all feel better. Kind of like that last caller. Like, I feel really bad, but I don't want to be one of those people that grieves like that. And we have this just public shaming thing wired into us. And I guess if I would tell everybody is, dude, just stop. Stop, man. If that makes you feel better to pile onto somebody to blast somebody with an ugly comment, go. Go talk to somebody. Because you need some help. Need some help. If there's a funny meme, you can laugh. That's funny. But the public just. Gross. Pile on, man. It's just. I don't know, dude. It's just grossing me out these days. It feels like that's the soup du jour, and I'm kind of over it. I'd rather somebody blows up their life. I don't know. I'd rather us pull up a seat and say, man, here's. Here's a drink. Come tell me what happened. And. Versus, Ah, I don't know. I just think it's the. I think it's the worst parts of us. So is what it is. So that's my me and Kelly's public lecture of the day. Don't pile on. Be kind. And if you get mad about something, if you get ugly about something, here's this awesome thing you can do. Just change channel. Just scroll another direction. Ta da. Try that. Love you guys. Bye.