My Wife Left Me Because I am a Man Child

Summary

The Dr. John Delony Show – "My Wife Left Me Because I am a Man Child"

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)
Theme: Real talk on relationships and mental health challenges, with listener calls seeking advice on marriage, parenting, grief, trauma, and decision-making.

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. John Delony taking live calls from listeners grappling with intense personal and family issues. The main themes explored are marital breakdown due to emotional immaturity and avoidance, coping with fear after community violence, the emotional toll of pregnancy loss, and how to communicate difficult truths within a family.

The tone is candid, compassionate, and direct—Dr. Delony does not shy away from hard truths but consistently guides callers toward actionable self-reflection and practical next steps.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AJ: Marriage Breakdown and Ownership of Emotional Immaturity

Timestamps: 00:25 – 16:30

Background

• AJ's wife left him, taking their three kids, after a pattern of hurtful behavior, evasiveness, and emotional immaturity.
• AJ struggles to accept responsibility, initially downplaying his actions.
• He frequently numbs out with video games, avoids conflict, and admits to making hurtful remarks, including calling his children "retarded."
• AJ feels lost, spinning between self-deception and uncertainty over whether he's "being gaslit" or just can't remember events.

Key Insights & Advice

• Dr. Delony stresses total ownership:
  "The path for you, brother, is 100%. You can't escape this. It will track you down. A hundred percent ownership of reality." (06:11)
• Dr. Delony challenges AJ’s avoidance, highlighting his pattern of evasion and the impact on his family:
  “You are worth more than the life you’re spending on 55 different plates. You have to be exhausted, huh?” (14:30)
• Dr. Delony advises radical presence and meaningful action:
  "Take the video game controller and throw it away... start being present at home. And when I feel myself getting angry, [...] I'm going to exhale, [...] and stay present. Because I'm not a child. I'm a grown man." (12:20)
• Suggests that AJ must clarify to himself: “Do you want to be married?” (12:11)
• Advocates full responsibility in therapy and with his spouse:
  “Today’s Day One when I start taking full responsibility for my actions. And today is Day One I stop blaming, I stop spinning, I stop whining about how hard I’m working. Everybody’s working hard.” (16:27)
• AJ’s self-acknowledgement:
  "I realized that I'm basically a spineless, domesticated man child. And in my wife's defense, she's raised four kids last 15 years, not just three." (08:10)

Memorable Moment

Dr. Delony calls out the avoidance directly:

“If I — I couldn't be married to you for more than two seconds because you just spin circles around everything.” (11:33)

---

2. Phoebe: Finding Safety and Agency After Tragedy at Church

Timestamps: 21:03 – 35:21

Background

• Phoebe, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, describes her struggle to return to church after a nearby violent attack.
• She expresses deep fear for her young children's safety and worries about "living in fear" vs. being responsible.

Key Insights & Advice

• Validating fear:
  “First and foremost, you are not crazy. Anybody who rolls into church this upcoming Sunday should have that little tinge of fear in their chest.” (25:10)
• On rumination and planning:
  “Rumination feels like productive thinking... it just dumps the same response chemicals into your bloodstream and says it's time to go.” (26:19)
• Suggests balancing healing and participation:
  “Give yourself permission to take a week off... That's not a statement of your faith. That's not a statement of your weakness. That's a statement of you honoring being a good steward of the mind and body that God gave you.” (33:29)
• Dr. Delony emphasizes returning to real-world connection:
  “The illusion of safety is gone. ...am I going to meditate on it and scroll through it... or I can go be a part of loving people well, in that community or in my community.” (29:42)
• Distinguishes between normal, acute fear and being trapped by ongoing patterns of avoidance:
  “If you do this forever... now I'm scared to, that's living in fear. That's not where you're at right now.” (34:56)

Quotes

• On agency and self-care:
  “The way to prove to yourself that you're worthy of being trusted is listening to yourself.” (33:29)

---

3. Jessica: Pregnancy Loss, Grief, and the "Second Child" Dilemma

Timestamps: 39:54 – 55:42

Background

• Jessica, age 35, wonders whether to have another child mostly to give her daughter a sibling, though she does not deeply desire it.
• She and her husband endured years of infertility, traumatic pregnancy loss (named Gabriel), and a difficult birth with their daughter.

Key Insights & Advice

• Affirms the right to be “done”:
  “If you're done, be done. There is some [scientific] literature... but you've been through hell. And it's okay not to want to go back through hell again.” (42:54)
• Practical steps for grief:
  • Write letters to Gabriel and read them aloud as a couple.
  • Hold a brief memorial or ritual, no matter how long it's been.
• On emotional openness in marriage:
  “Don't rob him of a chance to love you well. And carry some of these cinder blocks that you got inside you right now.” (53:22)
• Warns of the "glass film" that unspoken grief creates between loved ones:

  “Secrets will kill you. I don’t think they’ll kill you. I think they're just going to put a glass film between you and everyone who loves you.” (55:43)

• Advises setting a date for future discussion rather than deciding now.

Memorable Moment

Jessica shares her sense of shame and grief:

"I don't know if it's like shame or... something wrong with me that I cannot keep babies healthy." (51:05)
Dr. Delony gently replies:
“That’s when it hit me how heavy the grief was. ...holding it in and not wanting to say it out loud... that’s going to bury you on the inside.” (51:38)

---

4. Positive Listener Feedback: The Power of Honest Family Conversations

Timestamps: 59:11 – 61:36

• Autumn writes in to thank Dr. Delony for helping her family communicate openly about adoption and parenthood.
• Her story illustrates the generational benefits of honest, empathetic conversation.

Memorable Quote

"Kids do not come with instruction manuals... you never know how to approach things to make your kid better and not bitter. I just wanted to express our gratitude. You do make a difference in people's lives." (59:11)

---

Notable Quotes

• Dr. John Delony:
  • "You have some soul searching to do and you have some actions to change." (16:27)
  • "Today I become a rock that this family can anchor into." (16:27)
  • “The way to give yourself, the way to prove to yourself that you’re worthy of being trusted is listening to yourself.” (33:29)
• AJ:
  • "I'm a basically a spineless, domesticated man child." (08:10)
• Jessica:
  • "I don't know if it's like shame or... something wrong with me that I cannot keep babies healthy." (51:05)

---

Key Timestamps for Segments

• AJ’s call (Marriage breakdown): 00:25 – 16:30
• Phoebe’s call (Fear at church): 21:03 – 35:21
• Jessica’s call (Second child after loss): 39:54 – 55:42
• Listener Letter from Autumn: 59:11 – 61:36

---

Summary

This episode of The Dr. John Delony Show is a moving, hard-hitting exploration of family pain, accountability, grief, fear, and healing. Dr. Delony’s tone is supportive and direct, urging each caller to face reality head on, own their actions, and find comfort and agency through honest self-reflection and genuine connection with loved ones.

He offers practical, empathetic tools for rebuilding trust, processing trauma, and communicating difficult truths—anchoring all advice in real human experience. Listeners are reminded that healing requires vulnerability, personal responsibility, and the willingness to walk through discomfort rather than maneuver around it.

Transcript

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, let's talk about your marriage. Right now, we have February and October weekends on sale for the money in Marriage Getaway. It's the best marriage retreat on the planet. Tickets start at 749 bucks a couple. Get [e-mail] getaway.

[AJ]

I have been trying to take some steps to, you know, use nicer words, whatever my exact thoughts were. I'm killing myself mentally, physically, to put food on this table. And my kids took it out. I'm killing myself. And they went to their mom about it and said, hey, dad said he's gonna kill himself. And she said, well, we're out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, but that. That means that happened in a context. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee. I'm a real person. I'm a real boy talking with real people. So if you're already caught up in the madness that is AI Influencers, come pull up a real seat, and I guess you can have some AI Nachos with us. And we're going to figure out real challenges because no matter how much you go down the the rabbit holes on the Internets, our real lives keep happening. And we need help and support with our mental emotional health, our marriages, our relationships, our kids, everything. If you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you go to John DeLoney do/ask a S K. And for the jillions of you who reach out on social media, no, I don't take marriage and mental health questions on Instagram or Facebook, but I will take your calls live. I like to talk to real people. All right, let's go out to Asheville, North Carolina, and talk to A.J. what's up, brother? How we doing?

[AJ]

Good. Dr. John. So glad to talk to you guys today. Thank you for taking my call.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You bet, man. What's up?

[AJ]

So my question is, my wife and I recently separated. She took the kids, and I'm just wondering how I can kind of rebuild that relationship after I have emotionally hurt them.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me about it, ma'. Am.

[AJ]

All right, so they left about a month ago.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Real quick, before you tell me a story.

[AJ]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I wanna. I wanna, I want. I wanna. I need to frame this for myself. Okay, when you say after I emotionally hurt them, I caught just a hint of. You don't think you did that. But she took the kids and left because she thinks you did.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Wow.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or are you owning? No, no. I've hurt my family.

[AJ]

Well, you're good. So I guess it's a little bit of both. I've. So I don't know where to start. So it's a little bit of both.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

So.

[AJ]

I don't know where to start with this. So. Long story. I had seen the writing on the wall for about six months, and I had been trying to take some steps to change some things, you know, use nicer words, whatever. And it just. It came to head one day I made a kind of a crash comments around the kids about how hard I'm working. My exact thoughts were, I'm killing myself mentally and physically to put food on this table. And my kids took it as I'm killing myself. And they went to their mom about it and said, hey, dad says he's going to kill himself. Which is not what I said. And she said, well, we're out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right. But that, that means that happened in a context.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You know, like, so if. If I said the exact same thing in my house. A, I have a history of always taking care of my family and, like, my family knows I love them. And B, I have a history of making stupid comments that I wish I could take back and I could go on and on and on. But my wife's first thought wouldn't be, oh, gosh, this is imminent. Her first thought would be, don't say that, you moron. Right, so give me a context. For seasons or for things you've said over the years that led to. Because that. That's somebody that's a camel looking for a straw to break its back.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[AJ]

So, I mean, I agree. It wasn't the one comment. At the end of the day, I am a turtle. I hide from conflict. And so instead of dealing with my mess, her mess, and marriage, I just retreated to video games. That's my therapy. I'm not an alcoholic, I don't do drugs. I'm a great guy. It's just instead of dealing with stuff, I retreat to a world I can't control when I can't control mine.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, how many kids you have?

[AJ]

3.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How old are they?

[AJ]

12? 11?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

8.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So if I was. If I was talking to your wife, put. Put your wife hat on. If I. If she called in my show and said, I just left my husband, took the kids and moved out. Are you. Are you even allowed to see them?

[AJ]

Are you having contact with them yet? First time I've seen him in a month was just at a. A sporting event real quick. So, no, I'm not.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. So I took my kids away from my husband, and I'm not even letting him see them. A. He hasn't fought me for him.

[AJ]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Which is information I need. But what would she tell me? The reason she walked out the door on you?

[AJ]

Because I'm an emotional mess.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What does that mean? You play video games. That just means you're. You're. You numb out. What do you mean emotional mess?

[AJ]

I. I don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, give me some specific examples of why she would walk out the door on you.

[AJ]

Because she feels that I've hurt my children with my statements. And we have a child that has a lot of mental stuff and is on medication. And, you know, I've apparently made some remarks in the past. I personally don't remember them. I'm not gonna say I didn't. And so I. I come across as a very harsh, passionate person to my children, I guess.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, be specific, brother. I can't tell if you're. If you are seriously in shock because your wife is not a good person and just bailed on you or.

[AJ]

No, she's a great person.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you are being incredibly evasive.

[AJ]

I don't. She's a great person, honestly. Like, hold on.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She took your children from you. So either she has put herself in a binary category. Either she is a hero who rescued her children from a monster, or not. And the path for you, brother, is 100%. You can't escape this. It will. It will track you down. A hundred percent ownership of reality. Either your wife is not a good person and you're gonna have to go to war for your kids, or you have some reckoning with honesty.

[AJ]

Well, I would say I have some reckoning with honesty.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, what are some things you have said that she has stood there with her mouth wide open saying, I can't believe you just said that to our kids?

[AJ]

Well, that's the thing. There's not. There's not really. I mean, I've called my kids retarded sometimes. And yeah, that's harsh. And, you know, sometimes I try to make them.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, stop, Stop.

[AJ]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have a list of things. You do have a list of things. You don't ever call your kids that, but you're not even letting yourself feel the fact that that's what you called your kids on multiple occasions. Okay, I want you to be honest with me, dude. Give me some of the things that you've said that in. In a better light you would not have said in front of your kids or even worse at your kids.

[AJ]

Well, I wouldn't have made that one statement about, you know, killing myself mentally Physically, to put food on the table. I wouldn't have made that statement. I wouldn't have called him retarded in an occasion or two. But honestly, that's it. Like, sometimes I do feel like I've either mastered the art of self deception or maybe I'm being gaslit. I'm not sure which one it is.

[Kelly / Autumn]

I.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's hard for me to wrap my head around, dude.

[AJ]

Well, that's why I called you. It's hard for me to wrap my head around. I have had a ton of time. I've had a month now to self reflect. And, you know, there's been a roller coaster of emotions with that. And, you know, I realized that I'm a basically a spineless, domesticated man child. And in my wife's defense, she's raised four kids last 15 years and not just three.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so six months ago or six weeks ago, you said you saw the writing on the wall. What does that mean?

[AJ]

I realized that, you know, our marriage is not okay. We weren't communicating. Things were not. Like, we're just not good communicators. And instead of dealing with the conflict, I would just. Like I said, when I know I can't control this world, I'll pick up a controller and control that one. That's my therapy. It's how I cope. And I guess she had enough of being alone in a marriage and she took the kids and left.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, now you're starting to own it, but you're owning it at arm's length. Like, you're almost talking about yourself in the third person. Like. Like the. The. The thought of actually feeling this is like a tidal wave for you. You're gonna feel like you're going to be drowning.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So is she done? Is she falling for divorce?

[AJ]

No, no, no. That's. We're working together. Like, we're. We've had a couple marriage sessions. I've actually got one this afternoon. Like, we are both working together and we're trying to be wise. That's one reason why I didn't, like, fight for my kids, because I'm like, they're in the safest place they can be. They're with their mom. Like. And anyway, so, like, you keep saying.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That, though, but then you say, I don't even know. I might be being gaslit, but thank God they're with her. And I've been like an absentee father, immature child. I don't know why she left.

[AJ]

It's very conflicting.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It doesn't feel conflicting. It feels like you're Trying to avoid one reality or the other. I mean, your wife had to have sat there in front of a marriage therapist the last few weeks and rattled off what's been going on. What has she told the therapist.

[AJ]

Exactly? That. That I am very harsh with our children and with her, and that I don't take milk out. So one of my kids is allergic to milk, and I just. I. I don't believe it to an extent. And apparently I put him in some situations where not safe, you know, that type of stuff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why don't you believe it?

[AJ]

Because I don't. I. I don't know. Well, yeah, that. That I wish I knew. I mean, I do believe it to a certain degree. Like, I'm not going to feed him milk, but am I going to wash my hands after eating pizza? You know, I think that's an extreme thing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does his physician think that's extreme?

[AJ]

I've never talked to his physician.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why?

[AJ]

Because I'm a man child. My wife handles everything.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

She.

[AJ]

In my defense, she has raised four kids last 15 years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I do nothing defense here. None.

[AJ]

I know none.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here's. Here's the deal. Beyond your wife, beyond your kids, you have a choice to make. Am I going to be an adult male and honor and love my kids and my wife, or am I going to leave? Because what you're doing right with me, if I. I couldn't be married to you for more than two seconds because you just spin circles around everything.

[AJ]

Well, thank you for saying that. Nobody else will tell me that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you out of this thing?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

No, no, no, no.

[AJ]

I'm agreeing with you 100%. I'm. Finally, somebody's telling me something that I can do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I. Before you do anything, brother, you have to honestly ask yourself, do you want to be married?

[AJ]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. You've heard me say this a thousand times. I'll say it again. Behavior is a language. If I'm you, if I'm your best friend, you know what I'm telling you? Take the video game controller and throw it away. The whole box. Sell it today.

[AJ]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's you taking all of the alcohol out of your house. Except for you. It's video games. And I'm going to start being present at home. And when I feel myself getting angry, when I feel myself wanting to run, I'm going to exhale, take a real deep breath, hold it, exhale. And then I'm going to stay present. Because I'm not a child. I'm a grown man. And then I'm. Every single morning of my life, I'M gonna ask my wife, how can I love you Today, before I think about work, before I think about any of that other nonsense, I'm gonna own reality. I'm going to write down every single person on the planet that I owe money to. I'm going to put it in order of least to most. I'm gonna start paying people what I owe them because I'm an adult, Because I made a commitment when I slept with my wife at least on three occasions and had three kids. I'm gonna get under this whole family and hold them up.

[AJ]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You get what I'm saying?

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And anytime you catch yourself saying, well, maybe or I may have, stop yourself and say, I'm sorry I did. And if you find yourself unable to say that because it's factually incorrect, then you have to turn and face your wife and take that on. Because if that's the case, you have a woman who's trying to steal your three kids. I don't think that's the case, though.

[AJ]

I don't either.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm just telling you right now, brother, you are worth more than the life you're spending on 55 different plates. You're like, you have to be exhausted, huh?

[AJ]

I mean, yeah, emotionally.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Not physically exhausted. You don't do anything at home?

[AJ]

No, I don't. I mean, yeah, I mean, I do what I can. I work a lot. I do. I have a full time job, probably work 60 hours a week, you know, whatever. But we all.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Dude, man. Yeah, we all do. And that doesn't give us a pass to come home and not participate in this amazing life we have. Because here's the question. Why? What's all the work for?

[AJ]

To provide for my family and live life. Live a good life.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. If living a good life is coming home while a tornado of activity happens around you and you living with a partner that you've been with for a decade and a half who you know is more tense when you're at home and your idea of a good life is pulling out a video game controller, I'm going to challenge you on your definition of a good life. A good life starts with somebody who is rooted and connected and people's shoulders drop when they walk into a room, not tens up. And for you, brother, I want home to be a place you can't wait to get home to. Instead of it becoming a. A failure factory.

[Kelly / Autumn]

If.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If I'm you and y' all going to marriage therapy and you really think, what if you believe what you're telling me that My wife's been raising a fourth kid for 15 years and yada, yada, yada, all that. Today, walk in to marriage counseling and drop your shoulders and hold your wife's hands and say, hold on, therapist. Before anybody says anything, I got something I got to say. Today's Day 1 When I start taking full responsibility for my actions. And today is day one. I stop blaming, I stop spinning, I stop whining about how hard I'm working. Everybody's working hard, everybody's worried about finances. Everybody. But I have three kids and I've got a wife who you say is amazing. Today I become a rock that this family can anchor into. And I'm gonna have to practice, learn how to do that because I've never, ever done it. Will you be patient with me and will you teach me? And when you walk alongside me while I learn, that's the place you gotta start, man. Call anytime, brother. I'll tell you the truth, but man, you got a lot. Not a oh, I've got so good to change my personality. No, you have some soul searching to do and you have some actions to change. Thanks for the call, brother. We come back, a woman asks how to feel safe at church again. This show is sponsored by Better Help. This time of year can be tough for all of us, so be sure you check in on your friends and if you can, reconnect with loved ones. I recently reconnected with some old friends of mine and it was an amazing time of restoration. And just like it can take a little courage to send that message or grab coffee with somebody you haven't talked to in a long time. Reaching out for a therapist can also feel hard. But if you need it, it's worth it. If you're thinking about reaching out to a therapist, I recommend BetterHelp. With over 30,000 therapists, they're the largest online therapy provider in the world. They've served over 5 million people globally, and they have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5. BetterHelp is totally online, so it's easy to fit into your schedule. To get started, you just answer a few simple questions and they're to connect you with a licensed therapist who will fit your needs. If it's not the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost. This month, don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist, Better Help makes it easy to take that first step. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P-.com DeLoney all right, I don't know about you, but have you ever been looking at something on your phone and then suddenly it ends up on your laptop? And then suddenly there's a commercial on the TV that matches what you're looking for on your phone? It feels like everything is listening to us. And it gives me this low grade anxiety about everything. And we already know that every move we make on the Internet is being tracked. And now it feels like our phones are listening to us and our TVs are watching us. We live in a time when personal information like name, address, phone number, even our family's information is being bought and sold behind our backs without our consent. And this is not just a privacy issue. When your data becomes scattered across the Internet and people are buying it and selling it without your knowledge, it makes you feel uncomfortable. It makes you feel scared. It's an invasion of privacy. And this is why I use Delete Me. Delete Me is a service that hunts down your personal information that's sitting on shady data broker sites and it makes sure that it's removed. It's like digital boundary setting. When you take back control of your personal information, you're not just safer, you feel calmer. You can exhale in your own house. And look, it's not about hiding from the world. It's just about you choosing what parts of your life are for public knowledge and what is private for you. If you want less chaos and more control in your digital life, this is a simple way to start. Go to join delete me.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to get 20% off your annual plan. That's digital freedom. Join delete me.com DeLoney to save 20% off. Go check them out. All right, let's go out to Detroit, Michigan and talk to Phoebe. Hey, Phoebe, what's up?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Hey, John. This is pretty wild. I've been listening to your show for a while, so it's kind of crazy to hear you, like, you know, not on my headphones.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, I appreciate you calling. That's fantastic. I'm really grateful. What's up?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay, so my question is, how do I go back to church without worrying about scary or violent things happening to my family? That's a pretty specific question. So I'm going to give you the saga here. I live about an hour away from the church that was attacked in Grand Blink, Michigan. And man, I thought I was too tired to cry. But no, too late.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Again, no, that's a scary, it was a scary thing for everybody.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. Oh man, it was scary because, and you know, no, religious violence isn't scary, but I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that isn't my building, but that's my church. And I had been, you know, in my church with my family that morning and I just keep picturing like, what would I have done with my children if that had happened to us? And I just, I realized I don't know how to protect them from that, you know, And I tell, I tell my 3 year old every day, you know, my job is to keep you safe and that's what I want to do. And I just, I don't know how to do that. And I, and I want to go back to church. I don't want to be afraid. I don't want to let this stop me from living. But I also don't want to just, you know, pretend it didn't happen or just, you know, like nothing bad will ever happen to me because it, it did happen to my, my friends friends and my friends family, you know, and I just, I'm trying to figure out how to, how to go back to church and not put my head on a swivel.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. I guess the first thing I'm going to tell you is I'm sorry.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It shouldn't happen like that. And you're not crazy.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Thanks.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I had a very similar, a different but similar when I dropped my daughter off at her small little Christian school here in town the day that that killer went and shot up the window while the kids were in en masse at, for their, during their school.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I sent my son to a Catholic school here in town. Like I, I had that same, I had that very same. Like, oh gosh, like that's off limits. Right? That's, that's the feeling I had. Like that all this violence can be somewhere else out there, but not, not a little kid's school. Nobody can drive into a church. Right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Right. Yeah. And I feel like it's hard too because in my ward, in my congregation, we have just a lot of little kids that have all. We've all kind of moved in recently and there are still a lot of kids who, you know, go to school and they get training there. You know, they have to have these drills about an active shooter. But I just have these little babies. I have just a three year old and a six month old and yeah. And you know, I, they don't, you Know the day we found out and everything happened, my, you know, I'm over here having a panic attack and my 3 year old's like, can I have a fruit snack? You know, like he has no idea what's going on and I want to protect him from that. And I just don't know how 3.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Year olds you should protect because they won't understand.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that makes it almost scarier. Right. I can tell my 15 year old if something happens. Here's what I want you to do. I could tell my nine year old, that three year old, you just see that innocence, Right?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So I'll tell you a few things. We're not going to solve it all here on this call, but I want to give you some direction. Okay?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

First and foremost, you are not crazy. Anybody who rolls into church this upcoming Sunday should have that little tinge of fear in their chest.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And everyone should feel that. The second thing is, is you have to decide, am I going to go or not?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I mean, I want to go.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I mean our, our leaders here in our local congregations have been so gracious and you know, they said if you don't want to come, we're going to have virtual, you know, we'll have it on zoom. Like there's no pressure. Everyone is wel. But if you stay home, they're, they're so compassionate and so understanding.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

So. But I, if I can, I want to go.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

For me personally, it's been very important that I get up and leave my house.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because that's how my body is going to be reminded that that's not the way of the world. It's, it's, it's. I mean, violence is a way of the world. Let me say it like that. But that every church is. That's not happening to.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Statistically speaking, that's not going to happen to you. Right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And so that leads me to the next thing. Rumination feels like productive thinking. Going over and over, what would you do if that happened? And I would do this and then that would happen. It feels like you're almost pre planning and you're not. What you're doing is you're setting your body on fire from the inside out. It doesn't know the difference between a real event and a mother imagining grabbing her three kids and not being able to find the youngest one.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it just dumps the same response chemicals into your bloodstream and says it's time to go. And so it's You. When that thought pops in your head, it's you literally catching it and saying out loud or yelling, if you're by yourself, no. And then having a next picture that you can immediately backfill it with, which is one of everybody greeting you walking into church or walking out of church or holding all three of your babies. Having a photo in your mind that you can immediately go to. And over time, that plot a choice to not ruminate. You can't help it when that lightning bolt strikes, when that image of, oh, my gosh, there's a car coming through the wall. Right. Or there's a shooter walking. Like you can't control that it will hit you.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it is important to have a, like some. Some idea of a plan.

[AJ]

Right, Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

My dad used to do nuclear weapon drills when he was a kid. He grew up in Houston, and they had nukes in Cuba pointed right at the US and so they would make them do drills. So this isn't a new thing. I hate the fact that my daughter has to have active shooter or active lockdown or what they call bad guy drills. I hate that with all my guts. And also that's kind of been what's happening for a long time.

[AJ]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if I step out of it, I've been doing tornado drills and hurricane drills and fired. Like, it's this idea that we're kind of sold a bill of goods that we can all be protected. We can't. There might be a windstorm that comes from the sky and knocks a building over.

[AJ]

Yeah, right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

A bad guy can walk in the front door. And so some of it is exhaling and saying, I have some idea of a plan. And also knowing that nobody. No pre plan, they call it the. The known knowns and the unknown knowns. And then the unknown unknowns. Like, I don't. You don't know. Right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then I'm going to do the next right thing. The day after Charlie Kirk died, I went and found a. An event to go to with people that I normally wouldn't like, that I wouldn't have gone to otherwise. And it ended up being a magical, magical evening because I realized, oh, we're all on the same page.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

That's awesome.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I drove my daughter to school right after that shooting because I wanted my body to experience. This is a safe place for my kids.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And also love them and know I can't protect them all the time, even though that's my one job. And it keeps me up at night sometimes. And that's okay. Too.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I think you're, yeah, you're. You've got this. The illusion of safety is gone. And now I get to decide whether I'm going to meditate on it and scroll through it and read everything about the. Whatever they're reporting. Which, by the way, I've been enough investigations behind closed doors, not criminal investigations, but enough, like, digging into stuff that whatever they put on the table is often not real. So I can do that and have all these conspiracy theory. I can do that, or I know that happened. I know it's a tragedy. I can go be a part of loving people. Well, in that community or in my community.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then I can make a choice. Am I gonna go?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then as safely as I can go, I'm gonna walk in the front door with my head held high, holding my kids. And by the way, living in fear doesn't mean that you're not scared. Living in fear doesn't mean some days you just wake up and say, we're not gonna go today.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, so I, I, I'm around people of faith a lot, and they're like, like, literally recovering from trauma, and they're like, well, I don't want to live in fear. That's not living in fear. That's healing. That's grief.

[Kelly / Autumn]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's. You need to go see a counselor. That's not living in fear. Waking up one day and being like, hey, it's too much today. I'm not gonna go. It's patterns over time when you're like, hey, I'm letting this outside thing, this event or these events dictate every step I make, and I'm not going to give them that kind of power.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. That's what I'm, I'm trying to do is just not let it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can't.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I don't want it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can't. Oh, okay, Then don't try to not let it.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because what you're doing is you're still giving it the power. Don't fight it. Walk right through it. You get what I mean?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, I think so. It's just hard to. Man, it's hard to do just. It is just because, you know, I've been going to church every Sunday for my whole life, forever. And so, like, it's never like, even during, you know, the pandemic when we couldn't go, like, that was really hard, but it was kind of like, oh, like the whole world isn't going. Like, nobody's going. So it was a little easier to say, like, you know what? I just don't feel up to it. I'm going to stay back. But with this, like. And like I said, I don't think anybody would think poorly of me if I decided not to go. But it's like, man, I just, it's just such a knee jerk response that I'm scared that I would think poorly of myself if I chose not to go.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, why don't you take a week off?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

That would be. I mean, we kind of did this last Sunday. This last weekend. Our whole worldwide church has a. Every six months we do just a big broadcast. So. No, it's kind of the same thing. Nobody goes to church. We all just watch broadcast from home.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, but that's cheating.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What if you play this Sunday morning, I'm gonna take my kids out for breakfast. We're gonna go. We're gonna go have a gratitude breakfast and we're all gonna talk about the things we're grateful for. Your three year old will babble, your two year old will just face and your one world will just pee everywhere. But like it's. Or maybe it's just you and your husband. We're just gonna have a gratitude breakfast. I'm gonna get. I got. I got my bell rung in a boxing match and I just need to go to the corner for a minute.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because you're putting a ton of pressure on yourself to. To be okay in a moment when you're not okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the way to give yourself, The way to prove to yourself that you're worthy of being trusted is listening to yourself. And right now your body's telling you, I need a minute. It's okay. That's not a statement of your faith. That's not a statement of your weakness. That's not a statement of your fear. That's a statement of you honoring being a good steward of the mind and body that God gave you.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay. Yeah. I don't know why, but it always feels better when someone tells me I'm being a steward. I just feel like it is less. Like, I don't know. It gives me responsibility, but it's not agency.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It gives you agency.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I love agency.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, I know. And it may be worth going back and looking. How much agency have you given away over the years to your parents, to your church, to all these other things.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That have been telling you you should, you should, you have to, you have to, you should, you should. And then putting your own fist in your chest and saying, Today, the right thing for me is looking at your husband and saying, hey, today the right thing for us is now. If you do this forever, when you. When you know in your guts, I want to go in that building, but now I'm scared to. Then you begin to transition over to living in fear. I'm going to not do a thing that I know is good for me, that I want to be a part of, that I want my family to be a part of, because it makes me feel uncomfortable. Right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so. But right now, it's like. It's like a. A runner stepped off the curb wrong and blew their knee out. It makes sense. You got to take a break. You got to heal. And then if you're scared to ever jog again, even though it made you feel good, it kept your body healthy, it cleared your mind. But I'm afraid I'm going to step, Make a wrong step, then that's living in fear. That's not where you're at right now.

[Kelly / Autumn]

Now.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And for everybody listening there has been from the woman on the train to the shooting with Charlie to the person driving through church, through the international conflicts. And I'm missing some here. So people are going to send me mean things. You didn't say. You're right. I like the political violence. The. The politician in Minnesota, like, it just keeps going on and on and on. And I guess the big picture thing here is one is a couple of things. One, violence like this has been going on forever. We just didn't have every second of every angle and every commenter making every comment in our minds, in our faces, in our ears, 24, 7, 365. It is up to us to get the information and turn it off. The second thing all of this forces us to do is ask ourselves, what kind of world do we want? And for us, in the US we get a vote. We get to make a vote locally, statewide, and nationally. We get to decide do we want to live in this world and how do we want this thing to look. Other countries don't get that privilege. We do. We get that choice on 50 million different issues. And the final thing is we have to ask ourselves what is right and good for us? And even when it's scary or hard, are we going to go anyway? I cannot tell you as a public figure, a guy who's out on stages all over the world, I mean, all the world, all over the country, how scary this has been. And I can't tell you how healing it was to roll into a comedy club to See a comic that normally I wouldn't go see with a room full of hundreds of strangers, everybody united. And I was like, oh, this is where I live. Most people are good. I need to spend more time here with real people. People leaning over to let people buy, people paying for each other's drinks, people opening the door for each other, people saying, excuse me, I'm so sorry for bumping you. Humans interacting with humans. And that's at a comedy club, that's at a local church, that's on a hike with your friend. That is real life. I think with all my guts, that's the path forward for all of us is to be around real people in the world, remembering we're all on the same team here. Thank you for the call, Phoebe. I'm really grateful that you reached out. Take a weekend off. Regroup with your husband. Feel the fear next time you're rolling into church. Feel uncomfortable. And if it's right for y', all, go in anyway. And remember, rumination is a waste of time. It feels like helpful thinking. It's not. It's protective thinking. Thank you so much for the call. We come back, a woman asks, is it worth it to have a second child just for my daughter? I want to invite you to something really cool that's happening this month. Hallow, which is the prayer app that I use almost every single day, is teaming up with the Bible app and other Christian organizations all over the world for Global Bible Month. Heading into the holidays, there's no better time to slow down, reconnect with your spiritual life, and bring prayer back into your daily routine. During Global Bible Month, Hallow will offer a 30 day Bible story challenge. These are some of the most popular Bible stories in scripture, read by incredible voices that you already know and love like Lauren Daigle, Jonathan Roumie, and more. And while you're using Hallow, check out their thousands of prayers and meditations as well as their sleep series, which is a series that can fill your mind with positive thoughts and stories as you drift off to sleep. Join me and millions of others around the world for Global Bible Month on Hallow. Together we can dive into scripture and change the trajectory of our lives. Join right now and you're going to get three months for free of [e-mail] DeLoney that's hallow. H a l l o w.com DeLoney all right, let's go out to Philadelphia where she was born and raised and talked to Jessica. What's up, Jessica?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Hello. You will tell by my accent that I was not born and raised.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know. Just playing. That's the old Fresh Prince of Bel Air song. So, yeah. Good to talk to you. What's up?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Good talking to you, too. Yeah. So I'm gonna read my question, and then we can go from there. So my question is, is it a good idea to have a second baby just to give my daughter a sibling, even though I really don't want to?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How old is your daughter?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

She's only six months old. So I know this is a little bit, like, early, but I'm not young.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're like in the middle of a tornado asking, is this the right hairspray I should be using for my hair? Right. Like, this isn't the moment to make any existential questions. How old are you?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I'm 35.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, gosh. You're not old. They're gonna tell you it's. You're geriatric and you're a thousand years old. You grandma lit. You're not. You're not, you're not, you're not. But, yeah, get me to the root of the question.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I guess the root of the question is I. We. It wasn't easy to get to have my daughter. We. It's been a couple of years of just, like, I guess, traumatic pregnancies and birth events.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Have you lost pregnancies?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How many?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

One.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

One. Did you name him or her?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What was the name?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Gabriel. Gabriel.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, it's okay. I want to take a minute. For Gabriel, I have the names of all the babies that my wife and I have lost in pregnancy through miscarriage. I haven't tattooed on my body. It means something. Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It means something. I'm sorry that Gabriel left early.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Thank you. Yeah. And. And with my daughter now, like, she was also born not breathing, and she wasn't in the queue for 10 days, and. And it's, you know, I feel like it was, you know, a whole marathon to even have one healthy baby. And I. I kind of. I guess I kind of want to answer this question because I kind of want to put. I want to put, like, the pregnancy kids thing, kind of like. Like, I'm done. I'm tired.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, listen to me. Listen. Listen to me. Okay? If you're done, be done. Yeah, be done. There is some. There's some. I would call it. Trying to think of a non nerdy way to say it. There's some literature out, some science on there about how having a sibling can help in the short term with language development and some social development and things like that. Reading Things like that, literacy, I often care way less about that. But there's also some literature about conflict. Right. That it can be tough on kids if they've got. So it's kind of mixed. I care way more about when Your daughter is 30 and she's taking care of old mom Jessica.

[AJ]

Right, Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She has some siblings to lean on in that time. I, I. And I don't have that literature off top of my head. I just know that I've got friends who have one kid and dealing with aging parents is really hard. All by yourself. That said.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hold on. That said, you've been through hell.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it's okay to not want to go back through hell again. Personally, I would make no decisions right now. I would put a star on the calendar for a year from now when you'll be grandma 36, for crying out loud. So, D. And, and, and by the way, yes, risks go up. Blah, blah, blah. You're not old, you're 36.

[Kelly / Autumn]

And.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you married?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, then I would say already, plan a weekend away with your husband, and you'll have an honest assessment about where you are.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, yeah. He's. That's another issue because he's pretty. Like, he really wants another baby.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

And he keeps joking about her little brother and stuff like that. And I just, I don't know how to, like, I don't know how to have this conversation with him in the sense of, like, just make him, like, understand how. Because to him, like, you know, we had one, you know, we had bad experiences, but then, you know, he sees her and, like, he's, you know, over the moon with her, and he, you know, just always wants, you know how, you know, men want a boy or whatever, and then so that's kind of like, where he is. He's just, like, so happy with everything and where we're at, and I'm still trying to understand what the heck happened.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, there you go.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Last couple of years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go. Okay, so give yourself a second. Yeah, give yourself a second. Can I give you a couple of things to do, some homework assignments? Because here's the thing. Both you and your husband are right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that makes it tough because you're both being loving and you're both being honoring, and you both want safety, and grief and love are very closely connected. Okay. I want you to do a couple of things. Okay?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I want you to, first and foremost, by yourself, write Gabriel a letter. You're going to get frozen in that grief. You're not going to be able to move through it until you move through it. And if he'll be brave. I want your husband to write a letter to Gabriel, and I want you all to read them to each other.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Often in miscarriages, there's a. In any loss, but especially in miscarriages, there is a mix match, mismatch, if you will, of grief. One person's ready to move on. One person gets. Wants to sit in it. One person. It doesn't. It didn't have the same effect as it did on the other person in terms of weight or whatever. And people fly past each other.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. And it's okay to tell Gabriel that you were so happy that you got to be his mom for the period of time you did that you're really sad that you never got to meet him. All those things, whatever. Whatever happened. But it's you processing this, and then you got to share it with somebody. If y' all didn't do a small service, I want you to do that. It's not too late.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. We were really wrapped up in the medical stuff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, I know. It's chaotic, and it goes so fast, and all of a sudden, it happens, and you're on your way home. You don't realize what just happened.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Right? Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And then he's got to get up and go to work. Maybe you do, too. And all of a sudden, it feels like the world is spinning right past you. It's just everybody's blowing and going, and then you start to feel crazy.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How much later, after you lost Gabriel, were did you find yourself pregnant?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Four months.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Four months.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. She didn't even know what day it is. And all of a sudden, everyone's telling you to be excited for this new one, and you can't breathe until you see that baby, right?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then when you do see that baby, they take her away and put her in NICU for 10 days. Hold your own baby, Right?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've been through hell.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. Putting it all together, it's.

[AJ]

It's a lot because.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you're not able to tell your husband, this is the moment to do that and to say, I've been holding this in. I've been through hell. I had to. And to replay what I just told you, but tell them what your experience is from the time you found out you were pregnant with Gabriel and you were so excited. It was gonna be amazing all the way up until the birth of your baby. And if you're in the middle of the road after a head on collision that you barely survived. That's not the time to be looking on Carmax for the kind of car you're gonna buy. Right?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You gotta go home and you gotta exhale, you gotta laugh, thank God. And you gotta cry.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. It feels like this sometimes. It feels like. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I'm gonna say something that's gonna sound mean, but I want you to hear me saying it. I'm saying it with you, not at you. Okay?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you don't process, if you don't share with somebody or a couple of people what's been inside your chest for all this time and forget all the hormones and the up and down and you're, you know, I mean, all that chaos, if you don't share that, it forms like a film between you and your baby.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Between you and your husband, between you and the outside world. And most of the time when I say that, people know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, I guess. I guess part of, like, why I don't talk about it a lot is I feel like a little bit of. I don't know if it's like shame or they're like, there's something wrong with me that I cannot keep babies healthy.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I get that I can't experience that with you, but I remember holding somebody one time who said, I feel like my body is killing babies. And that's when it. It's when it hit me how heavy the grief was. No, don't be sorry. I'll just sit here with you. I need you to know that factually that's not true. But right now that doesn't matter. But what I will tell you is holding it in and not wanting to say it out loud because of the fear that it might be true. Man, that's going to bury you on the inside. Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There's a million different variables and factors as to pregnancy loss and NICU and all sorts of stuff.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, yeah. And I understand, like the medical, you know, aspect of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, no, no. Then that doesn't matter. I'm talking about the spiritual side, the emotional side, right?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's okay that you're having those feelings is what I'll tell you. I'll tell you they're not right, but it doesn't matter.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But one of the greatest things about being married to somebody, if you trust him and he's a good man. Is that so?

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. He's a great man.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then let him. Let him do what he said he would do when y' all got married, which is carry this with you. Don't rob him of a chance to love you. Well. And carry some of these cinder blocks that you're. You got inside of you right now. Okay.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. I mean, like, sometimes I feel like he kind of knows something is going on.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He does. And yet he doesn't know what it is, and so he blames himself. And so if he's safe, invite him in and tell him, I can't carry this.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah. He always tells me. I don't talk to him or I don't tell him stuff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, you don't. He's right.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

I don't even know where to start.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Start with, I keep going back to that ride home from the hospital when we lost Gabriel, and I never fully processed that. And I want you to do something with me. Do you love me? And will you do this with me? And he'll. He'll say, of course. Anything. And then say, I want you to write a letter to Gabriel about how you didn't get to be his dad, and it makes you sad. And I'm going to write a letter to Gabriel, and we're going to read it to each other, and we're going to have. Even if it's a short moment, we're going to have a moment together where we honor the loss in our house.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then when I tell you about how scary it was having my baby taken from me and immediately run out of the room and put on a bunch of machines, and I didn't even get to hold my kid.

[Phoebe / Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you can ask him. Tell me about what that was like for you. And these are deeply painful, deeply intimate conversations that if y' all handle with care and you're curious with each other. And what I mean by curious is if someone says, oh, my gosh, I didn't know you were carrying that. Tell me more about that versus that ain't true. Forget that. Let's go watch a game. Right? If people are curious and they don't judge each other.

[Kelly / Autumn]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This can be one of the most unifying things you'll ever experience. But I promise you, secrets will kill you. And I don't. You know what? You're tough. I don't think they're going to kill you. I think they're just going to put a glass film between you and everyone who loves you. Your daughter, your husband, your family. And it will feel lonely inside that glass prison because you'll see everybody and they'll smile, and they'll Try to reach in there and hold you and they can't get through. And you're going to want somebody just to smash that glass. The problem is it's locked on the inside and you have to open it. And opening it means you have to feel all this stuff again. But this time we're going to feel it with the purpose of letting it move through us. And then tell your husband, I know with all your guts you want a second kid. You probably want a third and a fourth kid. No chance, buddy. But I know you want a second kid right now. This is all so heavy on on me. I'm going to put this little star on the calendar. You pick the weekend place that we're going to go or even the morning, like the half day. I want you to take off of work and we'll go talk about on this day. But I just need a few months to heal and grieve before I can clear my mind. Because right now I bet your your five month old daughter feels really burdensome and heavy and exhausting. In a year, man, some of that stuff really can start to change. It's been a big time honor to that you were honest and brave with me. I know you haven't said a lot of this stuff out loud and I'm grateful that you spent some time with us today. You call anytime if your husband wants to call. I'd love to talk to him. I'll dedicate this segment to little Gabriel and for the time he got to spend with you. And all that time got cut short. Thanks for the call, sister. All right, we are way into the fall season now, headed right towards Christmas and winter. This season is chaotic. We got stuff going on with family, school, work, holidays. Everyone I know is rattling around the edges. And in this season that already trends towards anxiety and exhaustion, sleep is more critical than ever. And that's why I'm always telling you about Helix mattresses. My family loves them. I love them. Even when people come spend the night at our house, they always want to know, what is this amazing mattress I'm sleeping on? Helix mattresses are that good. And here's why. Helix makes mattresses for real people, not just quote, unquote, average sleepers. So whether you sleep hot, cold on your side, your back, Helix customizes the mattress to you. You can get online and take their Helix sleep quiz. It takes like two minutes. I took it. It's amazing. It's quick and you can do it too. And you can get the mattress that was designed for you. Right now, my audience gets an exclusive 27% off their entire order at helix sleep.com DeLoney that's helix h e l I x helixsleep.com DeLoney and tell them you heard about it right here on this show with Helix. Better Sleep starts right now. All right. Something cool that happened. What is it, Kelly?

[Kelly / Autumn]

All right. This is from Autumn and she writes. My husband and I are huge fans of your podcast. We listen to your podcast during the day while I'm home with the kids and he's at work. We then come together and discuss it. It always brings up the best conversations and has really helped us grow in our communication skills with one another. Really encouraged us to talk to our oldest son, who is not biologically mine. My husband had him with his high school girlfriend at 19. We have full custody, but he still goes on visits with his bio mom twice a month. I've always wanted to talk with him openly about how his life started, but we never knew how to approach it. We sat down with him first to explain sex and openly talked with him about that. He's 11, by the way. We talked about the science behind conception. He was very thankful that we explained it to him and now we have open conversations about it often. He knows he can ask us a question about it. It's not awkward. It's been a huge blessing. After we laid that foundation, we explained to him the start of his life. We could not emphasize enough how loved he is and how he was chosen. I explained to him that he will always be my first. When we had our daughter, which was technically my husband and I's first, when the doctor handed her to me, I thought, I hope I can love her as much as I love him. His response was everything to us. It has blown us away. He got very emotional and started crying. He explained that he was so overwhelmed with how much we love him. He expressed how thankful he was that we kept him safe and gave him such a good, loving, caring home and foundation. His biological mom has a lot of mental issues and when he was a baby she was put in a mental institution. That's why we have full custody. We told him everything about what happened so there's no missing puzzle pieces for him. You could see the weight lifted off of his shoulders. Kids do not come with instruction manuals and when you go through hard things, such as a 19 year old, which my husband did, you never know how to approach things to make your kid better and not bitter. I just wanted to express our gratitude. You do make a difference in people's lives. Your job is not easy. Even though you carry it well, I know it can be very heavy. Thank you to Dr. John and team. We are thankful.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm not even going to say anything after that. I'm just going to accept that and be really grateful. That's awesome. That's one of those ones that gives me light at the end of tunnel when things are smoky and dark outside. Awesome. What was her name?

[Kelly / Autumn]

Autumn.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Autumn. Thank you for writing in Autumn. You just made my whole. My whole week. Blessings to you. See you guys.