Dr. John DeLoney (2:22)

Yeah, man. So what's it like being in your home since all this came out?

Chris (2:29)

So it's been about six months now. The first three months were a little rocky. I was having a really tough time with it emotionally because, you know, the situation, you know, not to get into it too deep there, but the situation hit really close to home. It Was something that her and I were. We both believed in a lot. And you know, I was, I was feeling really resentful towards her for that. And I mean, the financial strain, you know, she. She unfortunately lost her job and, you know, she had to take something minimum wage versus making good money. So our financial position definitely went down and I had to work extra hours, pick up another job while she kind of worked through it. But the last three months or so has been a little bit better. But I'm. I'm starting to feel low again. But she's not sure why because, you know, things look like they're coming up and, you know, things should be good versus not being good. So.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:29)

Man. So let me just say out of the gate, you are right. You're using very kind language. And so stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth, okay? Or not even words in your mouth. You seem like such a kind man in. And so I'll put these words right in the middle of your chest. Your right to be furious and your right to be embarrassed and your right to be feel taken advantage of. And like, you had a. You had a picture that you co painted with somebody and without you knowing it, she set fire to that picture. You're allowed to be upset and heartbroken and trying to figure out what. What am I going to do next? Okay, you're not nuts and you're not a bad husband and you're not a jerk. Okay, how much? Let me say it this way. Rarely. This type of behavior, this type of brazen stuff happens in a vacuum. And here, here's the question is, where have you seen this stuff pop up in your home over the years that you've known this person? A little deception here. A little. It's no big deal. Like, where has that popped up?

Chris (4:41)

I mean, it's popped up in a lot of aspects of our life. And I kind of, you know, I definitely, you know, brushed it off to the side saying, you know, like you said, no big deal. And there's, you know, the honesty was always a big thing and I always wanted to see change and the shining light or the, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel is that, you know, this, this situation has brought it to, you know, she's been working on that sort of honesty, which is, which is really good to see. But there was definitely a lot of signs beforehand that I kind of went, ah, it's okay, not a big deal.

Dr. John DeLoney (5:16)

Push him off to the side, man. Dude, I'm sorry, brother. I'm sorry. I'M sorry to have to talk bad about somebody's wife. That's one of my core values to ever do that. And here we are. And hopefully you hear me not talking bad about her as much as calling up, calling a behavior that's had really gnarly ramifications for you, your kids and. And for her and everybody. So, man, how can I help you? What can I. What can I do for you?

Sarah (5:41)

I'm.

Chris (5:41)

I'm like, I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate, as you said, like, when the smoke clears, like, you know, there. There is a clear plan. It's just, you know, how. How do I. How do I. How do I deal with these emotions? How do I. You know, obviously, you know, day to day is great, but, you know, when I've worked, you know, five weekends in a row and, you know, I'm sitting there and I'm exhausted, I'm like, okay, like, how do I keep going? Like, I understand. Like, I tell myself it's always for the kids. It's always for my. My daughter and, and our next one who's on the way and all this and that. But, you know, I want to be able to, you know, strengthen my marriage with my wife, you know, given the fact that, you know, she's now seeking therapy and all that. She's in like a six to eight week program now and all that.

Dr. John DeLoney (6:27)

And I just.

Chris (6:27)

I need to figure out how to get myself, you know, I. I don't know how to explain it.

Dr. John DeLoney (6:34)

No, I got you. I got you.

Chris (6:35)

I want to see unsure.

Dr. John DeLoney (6:37)

I want to see how far you would go. You never said it. Okay, so here's the path for you, and it's going to sound counter to what I tell most people, but this is directly for you, my brother Chris. Okay, Y. For a season, I want you to stop asking what everybody else needs first. I want you, for the first time, to say, my name is Chris, and I do have some major responsibilities in the form of two kids and in the form of a marriage that I want to rebuild from the ground up. But in order to do that, your kids need to be able to anchor into concrete. And you are quicksand. You've had to be quicksand your whole life. Yeah. Your marriage, you took on the role of wallpaper in a house that she built. And every time you're like, hey, I don't think this goes on. This wal. You just kind of looked away. And so for the first time in your life, I want you. You have to begin to write Down. Get out of your head and out of your body. Put it on paper for the first time. What do I want? And when you say on the fifth weekend in a row, this is just for the kids. This is just for the kids. Here's. And this sounds nutty, but you're going to start to resent them. They can't carry that kind of weight. You have to get up on that sixth weekend and that seventh weekend and say, I'm the kind of man who shows up for my family even when the house is on fire, because that's who I am. And the beneficiaries of that sort of rootedness will be your kids, will be your new marriage. You're going to rebuild. But if you're always scanning the environment to see, who can I go pat on the head? Who can I make okay, so that I have a bed to sleep in. You're gonna, I promise you, brother, you're gonna end up right back in the same situation, except this time it's gonna be with. She's gonna find some, another guy. Yeah. If she hasn't, if y' all haven't experienced that before. So let me ask you this.

Chris (8:40)

Definitely not. No.

Dr. John DeLoney (8:41)

What, what do you want? Just from your gut? Let it rip. Stability. Okay.

Chris (8:52)

How will you, the boring, the sorry.

Dr. John DeLoney (8:56)

Go ahead. How will you, my friend Chris, establish stability with. First with Chris. Let me ask a different.

Chris (9:05)

Honestly, a problem.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:07)

How, how will you become a man that you respect and more importantly, a man that you trust?

Chris (9:19)

I, I, that's, yeah, I, I feel like it starts with, you know, like you said, building myself from the ground up. And I feel like conversations like this and being honest with myself and somebody else is, is where I'm going to start.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:35)

Amen. But also, you're gonna have to start taking action that you've never taken before. And it sounds silly, but this is where I'm going to go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time, regardless of how I feel. And I'm going to make a plan for myself and I'm, I'm going to make a, in concrete commitment to myself that I'm going to do X, Y and Z for the next 60 days for me. I'm going to exercise. I am going to write down on a daily day to day basis. I am a man who, who will, who will work 7, 8, 9, 10 weekends in a row to pay off my wife's criminal behavior so that my kids have food. Because that's the kind of man I am. It might be going to a gym. It might be hanging out with your friends. It might be getting some male friends for the first time. It might be you going to see a counselor and saying, man, I need to. I need some skills to begin to practice asking myself, what do I want? And again, all of this is in service to your family. Yeah. But otherwise it becomes codependency. When you need everybody to be okay, and you need everybody to be not mad, and you need everybody to not challenge you, you end up drowning and they have nothing to anchor.

Chris (11:07)

You're too good at that. Wow. That was. That was exactly. That's.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:11)

It's.

Chris (11:11)

It's really what I need to hear, that, you know, stop trying to put out fires and make myself into concrete here so the people around me have something to anchor into.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:19)

And you're gonna have to come up with a series of probably three or four or what statements. Okay, here's what I mean by that. Yeah. Yeah. If you. If we agree on a budget and you spend money out of that account, here's what the. Here's what I am going to do. I'm going to leave because I don't trust you. And I'm not telling you. I'm just. I'm going egregious here, so it doesn't have to be that big. But if you steal a thing again, if you lie in this home again, I am going to X, Y, or Z. If for the next six months for you to reestablish trust in your home and need your own checking account, then I'm going to suggest you do that. And I tell every couple on the planet, you got to combine finances. But this is a moment when you have to reestablish safety and trust in your house, especially starting with you. Yeah.

Chris (12:13)

Thankfully, once. Once the.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:15)

The.

Chris (12:15)

The light came out, we had in the conversation and an agreement of, you know, we're going to have one singular checking account, but she doesn't have access to it. And when she needs stuff, I. I send it to her while we work on things. So thankfully, that. That doesn't end up as an issue right now. But I'd like to build to a point where we can get back to one shared bank account.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:36)

Yeah, you have. You'll have to get there. Otherwise you become her dad. Yeah. And you don't want to. You don't want a third child. And she doesn't. She doesn't deserve that from her husband. But y' all are going to have to. Right now it's about establishing safety and re. Establishing, rebuilding from the Floor up trust, which means you're going to have to tell her a whole bunch of things over time that you've kept quiet or shoved down for the sake of being nice, for the sake of not being. Making things uncomfortable. Yeah. And then you're going to have to get with a counselor of some sort, a men's group, a jiu jitsu cl. You're going have to get with a group of men and be vulnerable enough to say, I have to learn for the first time in my life how to stand tall and walk forward with purpose so that I can be a husband and a father and a man that other people can anchor into and that I can trust. I absolutely believe y' all can do that, but it's going to take some work. And that work for you. My brother starts in the mirror. We come back, a mom is struggling with the guilt of not feeling grateful for yet another pregnancy. If you're looking around at the culture and you're having a hard time knowing who to look up to, I get it. There's so much noise coming from so many different directions these days, and it can be hard to know who to trust. But there are examples of people, ancient people, who can teach us. And they've been inspiring us with their wisdom and faith for centuries. That's why I'm excited to tell you that one of Hallow's biggest prayer challenges is back this month, Saints in seven Days. The saints we honor aren't just stained glass paintings on church windows. They were real living people devoted to God no matter the cost. And during this challenge, you're going to learn how we can apply their faithfulness from back in the day to our lives right now. Saints in 7 Days also features Gwen Stefani teaching about Queen Esther. Michael is cander from Amazon's hit series House of David, talking about King David and many more. The saints aren't just stories from the past. They're real life examples for living with purpose, humility, and genuine faith. So join the Saints in seven Days prayer challenge on Hallow. Today. Right now, you get three months of Hallow for free at Hallow. H A L l o w hallow dot. That's three months for free at hallow.com deloney all right, let's stay right here at Nashville, Tennessee and talk to Sarah with an H. What's up, Sarah?

Sarah (15:12)

Hey, Dr. John. I can't believe I'm getting to talk to you. This is crazy.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:15)

I can't believe I'm talking to you. It's bananas.

Sarah (15:18)

I know.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:19)

What's Up.

Sarah (15:19)

Home team. Well, so my husband and I, we struggled with infertility for four years, and we finally had our first son, and it just was the absolute best. We ended up having another son 18 months later, very easily. No issues there. And then we got a surprise set of twins after that.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:41)

Hey. Oh.

Sarah (15:41)

So we had. We had all four kids within three and a half years.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:46)

Holy smokes on a stick.

Sarah (15:49)

Yeah, it was wild, but they're, like, the coolest little crew.

Dr. John DeLoney (15:52)

Yeah, that's a good eight. It's. It is. I can't even imagine the chaos in your home. I would just have to. I can't even imagine it. But that's gonna.

Sarah (16:01)

Three boys.

Dr. John DeLoney (16:02)

They're gonna be a gang, which is gonna be awesome as they get older. That's cool.

Sarah (16:06)

Yeah, they are really cool. So life has, like, slowed down a little bit. The twins are two and a half. Life feels manageable. Like, my husband and I are really enjoying each other. We've got friends, we're doing house projects, all the things. And we just found out we're pregnant again with another set of twins.

Dr. John DeLoney (16:26)

Another set of twins?

Sarah (16:28)

Yep.

Dr. John DeLoney (16:30)

Oh, man. Hey.

Sarah (16:32)

Oh, yeah. I am excited, and I am very grateful, but sometimes I feel so terrified and so overwhelmed that I don't feel grateful. So how do I manage?

Dr. John DeLoney (16:50)

Stay right there. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Just stay right there. Listen to me super carefully, okay? You're a good mom.

Sarah (17:03)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:03)

You're a great mom.

Sarah (17:06)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:07)

And you're a gangster. Great wife, too.

Sarah (17:11)

Thanks. I got a pretty gangster husband.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:13)

I know. He's probably awesome. I'm not talking to him. I'm talking to you.

Sarah (17:16)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:18)

You're a good mom, and all of the emotions are right and okay. Because you're also pretty good at just talking about how great things are. You have four kids. Three boys under, what, six?

Sarah (17:37)

Yep.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:39)

Dude, you have an, like, four open blenders going at every. At every minute of. Of the day.

Sarah (17:46)

They're pretty wild.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:47)

Yes. And having twins wrecked you physically, too, didn't it?

Sarah (17:53)

Yes. I remember what the end of that pregnancy was like, and we didn't even make it full term.

Dr. John DeLoney (17:58)

It's a human explosion. Yes. And the thought of going through that again is your. Your right to. To Your every feeling you have is right.

Sarah (18:15)

Just know that there are so many people that want to be in our shoes.

Dr. John DeLoney (18:18)

I know. I've been. I've been through the years. I've been through the years of infertility, too. You're having twins for the second time, even though you don't have to say this. I'll say it. That wasn't planned. And quote, unquote, we didn't want this, but we got it. That's okay, too. And your the kind of people that are going to raise two more amazing twins. You're going to be that couple that ever. You're gonna have to get a special van. Y' all gonna be van people now, right?

Sarah (18:50)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (18:52)

You're gonna have everybody being like, oh, you know how that happens? You're like, yep, I do. I asked that one time as a joke and a guy, like, he responded in such a graphic way. I've never asked that question again. I was trying to be funny and I was like, whoa. Gosh. I was like, bro, how'd that happen? And whoa, whoa. But, like, that's just gonna be. That's gonna be it. You know it's coming, right?

Sarah (19:11)

Yeah. Well, we tell people. Yeah, we like it. Clearly, we're good at it.

Dr. John DeLoney (19:20)

Ta da. But listen, your. Your upcoming joy is not the ex at the expense of your friends. My friends, all of our listeners, friends who are struggling with infertility. It's not like there's a finite number of babies to be born and somehow you got them and somebody else didn't.

Sarah (19:41)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (19:42)

And so I know that feeling is real. And you have. You remember just like I do. I remember walking down the hallway of my house and looking to a room that was supposed to be a freaking nursery and it wasn't.

Sarah (19:52)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (19:53)

And I remember watching. It felt like every 17 year old being like, oh, my gosh, I don't know how this happened. And I'm like, I do know how it happened. And it felt like everybody was pregnant and it wasn't happening for us. I remember that emptiness and that. I get it. And those feelings were right too then. And it's right to go back to and remember that pain. But also, man, they're coming. Right? And you and your husband have stepped up to the plate. Y' all will again. And you'll have just more people in your gang, right?

Sarah (20:30)

Yeah. It's just a lot. A lot of kids listen. And we love them.

Dr. John DeLoney (20:38)

Stop, stop. No more qualifying. You feel like you have to, like, put that tag on, like. But we like them. And I'm gonna be a good mom. And my husband's great. You don't have to add that. Everyone can see you and know that. You get to say. I'll say it for you. You get to go, this sucks. I finally got my body back. Me and my husband are finally figuring out like how to squeeze in nine minute like you want to right now. Because that's all the time you have with four kids under six. Y' all are finally figuring it out and now the whole thing's going to explode again.

Sarah (21:12)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:13)

It's okay to grieve what was. At the same time celebrating what is. Yeah, all of it's okay.

Sarah (21:24)

Yeah. I just, you know, it's also scary because I want to be everything. Yeah, not everything. I want to meet all their needs. And they only have one mom and they only have one dad.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:36)

What needs do you think you're not going to be able to meet?

Sarah (21:40)

I don't know, like one of our sons. He just, he. It seems like he just needs our time and he just lights up when he gets even. Just a few minutes of one on one time. And so I'm scared I'm not going to be able to meet that. You know, we even. Like I was telling Alex, he asked if we had financial concerns and we do. But it's more like I have to be patient because we're not going to take out any debt. We drank the Ramsey Kool Aid a long time ago. So we're going to build onto our house, but it's going to take time. So it's just a lot of things just feel up in the air. And I like things to be on paper so I can check them off. And with six kids, I don't think that. I don't think there's going to be a lot of things running smoothly for a little bit.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:30)

Let me just clarify. There will be. There will be zero things running smoothly. None. None. None. And often the needs we project on our kids are the needs that we thought we needed or that we did need when we were kids. And so let your kids have their childhood. It's theirs. It's not a replay of yours. And so if you constantly think, are still thinking or still wishing. All I wanted was to be seen in my own house. Growing up, I just wanted my mom or my dad to cuddle up and watch a bluey episode with me and they were too busy doing X, Y or Z or I don't know, your childhood at all. And I'm making some big leaps here. But most of the time when we. The fears we have with our kids are the same fears we experienced. And so your kids aren't ever going to know those. They're going to have different ones. And I'll just save you from the, from the clinched fist right now. You're going to mess stuff up And a house with 500 people in it like yours. Your kids are going to wonder, what would it be like just for us to just be two of us. And I'll tell you, I have two kids, and my son regularly asks dad, why didn't we have seven? Right. So every kid is going to wonder what the other life was like. And that doesn't mean their needs aren't being met. You and your husband are going to give them a picture of two people who love each other. You and your husband are going to give them a picture of two parents with firm values. Whether that's, we're going to have a great marriage. We're not going to borrow money. We're going to go to church. We're not going to go to church. I don't know what Yalls values are, but you're going to give your kids that. That picture. You're going to give your kids food and water and a place to sleep, even if three of them have to share a room.

Sarah (24:18)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:18)

And so your needs are going. Their needs are going to be met. What might not be met is the fantasy you had or the picture you painted in your mind because you're already projecting 30 years down the road about the. Maybe we can have a twin wedding. That'd be. So it's not going to happen like that, but, like, you've already thought through all those things, and the real thing to grieve here is the picture of what you thought your life was going to look like.

Sarah (24:42)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:43)

Because otherwise you're going to try to shove these two new kids in that old picture, and they're not going to fit.

Sarah (24:48)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:50)

And so if you can. You can imagine just taking your arm to a table with, like, a big Monopoly board that you've mapped out. Here's how this is going to go. And just swiping it clean and looking at this awesome husband of yours and be like, well, we got to make new plans. By the way, the plans are going to be a disaster. They're not going to work. But it'd be the. Like, you don't.

Chris (25:08)

You.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:08)

You don't use, like, cocaine. You don't drink too much. You make plans. That's your drug. And that's great. Make. Make plans. Right. Just hold them really loosely.

Sarah (25:15)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:17)

And never forget, you're a great mom.

Sarah (25:20)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:21)

And great moms are allowed to be like, oh, my gosh, why do we do this? Right? Why couldn't have. I had a headache that night. Why couldn't you? Like, I mean, like, it's okay to think those things. Yeah. What else? You still seem heavy. Ugh. That's not a thing to say to a mother with. Pregnant. With twins. I didn't mean it like that.

Sarah (25:43)

You're good.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:44)

I didn't mean, like, you're good.

Sarah (25:45)

No, you're good. I thought the table analogy was cool because my husband and I, we were sitting at dinner with our kids, and I said, this table's too small. And he said, so we'll build a bigger table.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:55)

Oh, dude, you married well, man. What a great guy.

Sarah (25:59)

You would love him. He also hunts and fishes, and he's just Steady Eddie. Like, he's such a. He's the best.

Dr. John DeLoney (26:05)

It's awesome. Awesome. And so you. Can I tell you something? And I mean this. The Internet people are gonna. I don't care. You're allowed to go a little crazy. Have full permission. And listen, you should be. You're a mom of 800 kids. It's okay. Allow yourself to go a little crazy. Allow yourself to be heartbroken. Allow yourself to be concerned that your body's gonna have to go through this again and lean on Steady Eddie right now. That's why we do this together.

Sarah (26:48)

Yes, we. All four of our kids required NICU time for various reasons. And with twins, it'll be just kind of par for the course. But I read your book, Building a Non Anxious Life, which everybody should read, by the way. And.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:07)

Free plug. Good commercial. Appreciate it.

Sarah (27:09)

Yeah. But our twins came early, 10 weeks early. And they were in the NICU on ventilators, all that stuff. And I feel that fire alarm already going off. And, yes, we're going to do some things to try to keep them in longer now that we know that this is a very real possibility. But it's like, it's coming. Like, I know it's coming. And so I just, like. I feel it in my chest. And I know we'll get excellent care. I know all those things, but I know what it's like to spend all day with one child, to have to go to the nicu. And then you leave your children behind. You're always leaving kids behind.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:47)

Yeah.

Sarah (27:48)

And it's just. I know it's coming, so I just feel that, like, impending. It feels like doom.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:53)

Yeah. Can I. Can I. It is doom. It's not. It's not. I'll say it's not natural. That's the wrong way I say it. But a mom shouldn't give birth and then go home without her babies.

Sarah (28:07)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (28:09)

And thank God we live in a little sliver of History where that's. We can do that. And there's trained professionals who can care for our babies in ways we can't. You know what I mean? So it's, it's. I would love for you to shift your language from we left them behind to we left them in a different we left them in care. The best way we could love them today was this. And then go home and cry your eyes out that you're not holding your babies. That's right. And good. What I don't want you to do here is go to war with your body because your body's right. You would be weird if you were like, all right, two months a night nicu and I couldn't move because the C section was wild. And because of this. And because of this, all right, let's just saddle up. Like, your body. There would be something wrong with your alarm system if it wasn't going off again.

Sarah (29:00)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (29:01)

And so what I would tell you is don't fight it as much as put your fist in your chest and exhale when you're by yourself journaling in the morning and say, thank you for trying to take care of me. We've done this four times and we're going to do it again and make all your crazy lists over list over plan and just hold them really loosely. And then if you want to go ahead, go ahead.

Sarah (29:30)

Oh, I said we'll do that. And I, I read your, I read your book and so I should know that I should be writing these things down.

Dr. John DeLoney (29:37)

Don't say should. There's no should. You have a thousand kids. You're just surviving. Right? Like I should, I should. It's more about like, hey, you, here's some tools. And what I would really love for you and your husband to do is to get away and say, and we're going to start doing marriage in three month chunks. We're not going to build a new marriage right now. We're going to plan for three months at a time. How can I love you in the next three months when I walk in and you're just sobbing, husband, here's a road map for how you can best love me when he comes home and he didn't make a sale this month, or the check is a little bit lower, or the insurance premiums go up and he's just sitting there scrolling the night away, or he's just trying to spreadsheet after spreadsheet. Like, go ahead and talk about it now. How you can best love him in that moment, right? And then in three Months. We're going to do it again, and then hopefully two or three months. Maybe you'll get three or four more weeks in the oven with these ones, with these kids, and that'd be awesome. And if you don't, you've already been down that road before, and it sucked and it worked out okay. So we're going to lean on that. Our previous experience, the word that keeps coming into my mind here, that I think that is the thing you have to lay down, you have to submit to, is control. Is that word right? Does that sound right?

Sarah (31:02)

Yeah. I'm the oldest of five. Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:08)

Okay. And so let's be honest. There were some things in your house that you missed out on because you had five kids, Right? Or there's five of you.

Sarah (31:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:16)

And our middle.

Sarah (31:16)

Our middle brother passed away when we were kids, so.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:18)

Okay.

Sarah (31:19)

You know, watching our parents deal with that grief while going through our own grief was.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:23)

That's right.

Sarah (31:24)

A wild thing as a little kid.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:25)

So that alarm is going off, too. You watching your parents dissolve after and become shells of themselves after losing a kid, that alarms going off. Watching their marriage change after pain and hurt and all these kids, that alarm's going off. When you look at this amazing husband you've married, all those alarms are going off and they're all right.

Sarah (31:47)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (31:48)

What I want you to do is begin to identify them. And that just comes from. From. From writing them down and say, speaking them out loud. And over time, if your husband isn't the. It's not that he's unsafe or he's not a good guy, and he just might not be the best person to share that with. Make sure you've got some women in your life that you can share those fears with or just say, hey, I don't need anybody to fix anything. I just need to say this out loud. This happened and this happened. And my body is running that script back to try to protect me right now in the present. And I can't make my heart rate just suddenly go down, and I can't make. Make my fears suddenly go away, but I want to put them on the table so that they're not in secrecy. They're not killing me from the inside out. But, man, I'm happy to know you're my neighbor, Sarah, and I'm happy to know that you and your awesome husband are going to be raising 500 little kids and that it's going to be awesome. And I want you to never forget these words. You're a good Mom. And good moms are allowed to be upset. Good moms are allowed to have bad days. Good moms are allowed to snap. Good moms are allowed to be a little bit crazy. Good wives are allowed to just unplug for a night because I can't. And that's what a good husband is for. All that stuff is right and good. The only thing that's going to hold you underwater a little bit too long is trying to hold on to a. A plan. Try to control every variable in this pretty chaotic season of your life. Ah. But I absolutely wish you the best, Sarah. And when these babies are born, I hope you'll send us a card so we can celebrate them with you. And you're right down the street here. One day I'd like to see one of your buses pull up, your family vans pull up and everybody pile out. And you can come visit us and we'll celebrate you right here in the studio. It was an honor talking to you today, Sarah. The world's a better place because you and your husband are raising an amazing family in it. When we come back, a man is grappling with guilt after a tragic accident that killed their family dog. I love, love, love my poncho shirts. And now, as the mornings are starting to get cooler, I get to pull out my favorite poncho shirts. The comfortable performance denims and flannels. Poncho's performance denim has that soft broken in feel like you've worn it a hundred times, but it still looks really sharp. I wear them to dress up events and on stages all across the country. It's got a touch of stretch so it moves with you, not against you. And those poncho flannels, you can get them in original or western styles and they are guarant to be the softest shirts you own. They're medium weight, yet somehow really durable and really comfortable. They keep me warm without overheating and they're perfect for layering. I'm wearing one right now. Poncho shirts are built for real life. They wick away sweat and they dry fast and hold up to whatever your day throws at you. They come in slim and regular fit so you can always look nice no matter where you happen to find yourself this fall. Look sharp and stay warm in poncho denims and flannels. Head to poncho outdoors.com deloney and get 10 bucks off your first order. When you sign up with your email. Check out a few of my favorites like the Laramie and the Matamoros. Again, that's poncho outdoors.com DeLoney all right, let's roll out to Vancouver, Canada, and talk to Daniel. What's up, Daniel?

Daniel (35:10)

Hi, John. Big fan of the show. Thank you for everything you do and for taking my call today.

Dr. John DeLoney (35:15)

I appreciate you. I'm a big fan of yours, man. What's up?

Daniel (35:19)

I'm just gonna get right into it. I want to know how to cope and navigate my own guilt of accidentally running over our family dog. Staying strong for the kids, but explaining life and death in a way where my children are ready for it developmentally.

Dr. John DeLoney (35:35)

Oh, man. I'm so sorry, dude.

Daniel (35:38)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (35:39)

Oh, man. What happened?

Chris (35:43)

So we were away.

Daniel (35:44)

My wife was away, and I had my three kids, and we were out for the day, and we live on a rural property, and we were coming up the driveway, and we have a cleaning lady, and she let the dogs out, and we were just coming up slowly like normal. And my one guy was on the other end of the property and just ran after the car. And he was in a blind spot. We never saw him. So, yeah, drove over him. Did the best I could. Sheltered the kids from it. At first we just thought it was his leg. And then I got them inside real quick and was able to shelter them from seeing him before he went downhill there. Rushed to the hospital with him and. Yeah, did everything I could, but he didn't make it. We lost him on the way.

Dr. John DeLoney (36:40)

Yeah, man. I'm sorry, Daniel.

Daniel (36:47)

Super tough.

Dr. John DeLoney (36:48)

Yeah. That's the worst, man. All of it. The whole picture of it, man. Good dog, too.

Daniel (36:56)

Oh, he was awesome.

Dr. John DeLoney (36:58)

Yeah.

Daniel (36:59)

All three of our dogs are rescue dogs, and. Yeah. So I'm. I'm struggling. You know, we only. We only had him for a couple years. He's about five. Perfect family fit. My kids are eight, six. And then we got a one year old, too, and he was just. Yeah, perfect. Perfect fit for the family.

Dr. John DeLoney (37:17)

So. I'm sorry, man. So what's the. What's the. What's weighing on you the heaviest? The guilt of this thing happened. This sweet dog that came into your life that was great with your kids. Your kids.

Daniel (37:32)

The guilt is. Yeah, sorry.

Dr. John DeLoney (37:34)

Go ahead. Go ahead, brother. Like, what's. What's the heaviest on your shoulders right now?

Daniel (37:37)

The guilt. The guilt is tough because I'm obviously responsible. I don't. You know, I don't. It's tough to fully blame myself. There was nothing I could do differently. I'm feeling guilty that I didn't put the steps in place maybe to, like, ensure that an incident like that Couldn't happen. The trauma of having to deal with it because I, you know, I love that dog lots, you know, he's a member of the family. And then, you know, I think, I think a lot of it I've buried just trying to be there for the kids, you know, and being strong for them and trying to shelter them from some of that, you know, and so.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:19)

Let'S peel this back. Is that cool?

Daniel (38:23)

Yep.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:23)

Let's walk it back. I, I am honored by your ownership. Okay. That's a responsible thing to do. There is a difference between responsibility and blame. And our culture has no psychology for an accident. We just don't. We live in such an insanely litigious, insanely everything's videoed, insanely armchair quarterback culture. Yeah. You live on a rural. I live on a rural property too. My dogs are all over the place. I told, I, dude, I totally get it. And so were you the one with your foot on the gas pedal and your hands on the wheel? Yes. Are you to blame for this dog's death? Absolutely not. And I don't blame a dog for wanting to come see his family. And so I, I, I love the idea of you taking ownership. I was driving. I'm the dad. I'm responsible. And there's no fault here. A bad thing happened, period. Okay, so you trying to come up with, that's how we end up in crazy societies when everyone tries to manage risk to a point that we're all sitting in a chair in a white sterile room and now we just found out that room's got microplastics in it. Like we, we've created a world where we've taken all joy, adventure, laughter out of it for the off chance that there might be uncomfortable discomfort or pain. Yeah. And as Brene Brown once said, if you shut off the pain switch, you also shut off the joy switch. And so, so here's what I say. You could have all the things in place in the world and a well meaning housekeeper comes over and opens the door and one of them shoots out. It's just, it happens. Right. And so I can't just flip a switch and take blame from you. But I, I want to tell you, just hearing your story, there's no blame here, man. It just happened. It happened.

Daniel (40:34)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:34)

A well meaning dad was being safe with his kids in a car going slow down a road and a well meaning dog couldn't wait to see his family. And a thing happens. Right? Yeah. The second thing, and this is real, is you've got some images in your Head that people shouldn't have in their head. Right?

Daniel (40:56)

Definitely.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:57)

Yeah. And so I want to say this, and I want you to metabolize this and let it sit deep inside your chest. Okay? Okay. That dog. What was the dog's name?

Daniel (41:08)

Rhino.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:09)

Okay. Rhino is not hurting right now. Rhino is pain free. Okay.

Daniel (41:25)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:27)

Everyone I've ever talked to who's been in an accident, whether it's with a. With a family member, with a loved one, with a stranger, with a pet, your body rightfully so loops on that incident and keeps flashing those things in front of you and the noises in front of you and the sight in front of you and all the carnage in front of you, because it wants to make sure that never happens again. But it's easy when it keeps doing that, when it stays on that loop for us to continually go back to that moment of intense fear and pain. And so I want to bring you from that moment to right this second, Rhino's not hurting anymore. Rhino's free. Okay.

Daniel (42:05)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (42:05)

And this is a choice you have to make. All people who go through catastrophic loss have a choice now. And it's hard. The way I've seen people be successful is one of two things. Get an actual photograph of Rhino in a funny family moment and put it in your back pocket and carry it with you for the next three or four months, or have one on your phone. And the moment, one of those lightning bolt moments pops into your head, of that moment when you're holding that dog, when you're seeing that dog, that feeling like, oh, God. Right? Those moments, you can't help the lightning bolts, but you can help the next second, which is, am I going to meditate on that moment, or am I going to pull that picture out and replace that image in my mind with something beautiful, something full of laughter and something full of joy. Because there's a difference between grief and terror. And I want to again, be. I want to. I want to be sad. I want to smile when I see that dog. And I want to intentionally begin to change my default setting out of that terrible, awful, scary moment.

Daniel (43:10)

Yep.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:10)

And it's a practice. You have to choose it, and it's hard to choose it. It's the same thing I tell people when they capture when they see a video or image or they walk in on their spouse with somebody else. Same thing when somebody accidentally hits their kid with a car or accidentally hits, you know, causes they're texting and driving and they have a car wreck. It's so your body just wants to loop on that image on that moment over and over and over. And it's a protective measure, and I get it. But we have to choose what we meditate on. And I'm going to meditate on. I'm going to choose, not through thinking, through action, to look at a photo of that dog smiling, hanging out with my young kids. And then I'm gonna be sad. And sad is different than terrified.

Daniel (43:53)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:53)

Okay.

Daniel (43:54)

I feel like I have both those things going on. Either it's either intense sadness, and then I. I feel bad kind of being too emotional in front of the kids.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:05)

That's the third thing I want to tell you. Hold on. That's the third thing I want to tell you. The single greatest gift you could give to your kids right now is to be sad in front of them. Yeah. Here's why. They're sad. And they might even be mad at their dad. They might even be scared and upset. And what if that happens to us like kids are kids? But when parents try to shield their kids from scary things and from emotions, the kids walk away feeling crazy. They feel insane. Because all of your kids want to be like Daddy. And right now, what they're learning is when you get scared or terrified or horrified or scared or sad, you bury that. And so the greatest gift you can give your kids is to be really sad.

Daniel (44:52)

Yeah, I was doing that, and then my daughter told my wife that it makes her more sad seeing me like that.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:59)

That's okay. That's okay.

Daniel (45:00)

I buried it a bit more.

Dr. John DeLoney (45:01)

No, that's okay.

Daniel (45:03)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (45:04)

Because the response to your daughter is now, if you're walking around sobbing all day every day, and you're laying under a blanket and you can't get up, then you need to go see a professional. Right? They, like, there's. There's. There's catastrophe. Right. And kids have a hard time processing watching their father melt in front of them. That's fair. But you circling up all the kids and saying, hey, Daddy's really sad. We're all going to write our favorite memory of Rhino, and we're going to read it to each other. That sounds nutty. And one of your kids might say, that makes me extra sad. And you can say, I know sad is a way that we say I love you when somebody's passed away.

Daniel (45:51)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (45:52)

And if y' all didn't have a funeral of some sort, I'd recommend that and let the kids participate in constructing that.

Daniel (46:00)

I think the ashes come back today.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:01)

Okay, then let's have it. Let's have. Let's all Everybody draw a picture. Everybody write a story. Everybody write a poem. Whatever that thing is, we're all going to participate in this.

Daniel (46:14)

Okay?

Dr. John DeLoney (46:14)

And it's okay to say, daddy's really sorry. Daddy's sorry that Rhino ran out in front of us. Daddy's sorry that this happened. Daddy sorry that the dog is dead. But I want to change your language. You didn't quote him. And I'm going to say. I'm going to be kind of harsh here. You didn't kill the dog, okay? You were behind the wheel when an accident happened. Yeah. If you're texting and driving or you're turning around making jokes, then that's a. That's a different story. It's going to change.

Daniel (46:48)

Wasn't happen. Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:52)

And we can talk about. Our favorite thing about Rhino is he was always running after us because he loved us so much. And then there was an accident. But when our kids say, hey, seeing Daddy cry makes me feel extra sad. The. The thing to do isn't to take away that sadness, because that sadness is still going to be there with her. It's to say, I know it hurts so big, and I'm not scared of your hurt. And you're allowed to be sad with me. Even extra sad with me. Not. Hey, dad, nip it in the bud. Right? Like that. Like.

Daniel (47:31)

Yeah, that's.

Dr. John DeLoney (47:32)

Then it just teaches everybody. Just pipe it down. It also teaches your daughter that she has control over her daddy's emotions. And I don't want her to have that kind of control either. She's just a kid. Dad's allowed to feel sad, and so is she.

Daniel (47:49)

Okay?

Dr. John DeLoney (47:49)

And here's my promise. This is going to sound nutty. My dog died. My beloved dog died. And my son and I, when he was 4, I think 3 or 4. A buddy of mine had a ranch, and I'll never forget this. It's the. It's the single holiest picture I have. But my friend took it from about 400 yards away. He's got a real fancy camera. But he took this photo and he sent it to me, and he said, I don't capture holy moments on film, but I captured this one. Feel free to delete it. And when we pulled up to his ranch, he had put up a little miniature shovel and a big shovel for me and my son. And together we dug that hole together. We buried that dog. We prayed for that dog. We talked about what we liked about that dog. And then we hugged. And we were sad about that dog. And let me tell you this. A few years later, one of my grandparents died. And that dog's life, that moment gave me so much context for me to teach my son about what had just happened to granddad. And so the legacy of my dog is still rattles through my family in a positive way. So even through my dog's death, and by the way, I don't talk about it a lot on the show. Love, love, love my dogs. But even in our dog's passing, beloved family pets, they become teaching moments for our kids that help us frame when loved ones die, when their friends pass away, when somebody at church gets sick or whatever. The thing is. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So letting them be a part of it in an appropriate way.

Daniel (49:31)

Thank you so much for sharing that. That's awesome.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:34)

I hate it for you, brother. But. But letting your kids see the natural grief cycle and letting them work through it with you is a great gift a parent can give them. Great gift. Obviously, we're gonna do it age appropriate and etc. I honestly. This is me being honest, Daniel. I don't know how I would. I don't know how I would explain ashes to an eight year old. You pro. You probably can To a six and eight year old. That this is what we do. This is what they do. Yeah. Yeah. There's a way to tell that narrative, just being kind of careful with how graphic you are with it. But I'm just thinking this through in real time. Yeah, you can. You can maybe bury the whole thing, but I think there's something about burying and there's a place and there's a marker, and maybe you and the kids make something together for that grave. Man. It's a powerful, important lesson for kids to learn that every single body passes away. And age appropriate, the earlier they can learn that and see that it's okay to. To be devastated, it's okay to be sad. It's. It's healing starts with action too, right? We're gonna. We're gonna dig a hole. We're gonna make a. We're gonna make a gravestone. We're gonna write poetry. We're gonna share it with each other. We're gonna write a story, we're gonna share pictures, and we're all gonna be sad, and we're all gonna laugh a little bit through tears, and we're gonna remember things. All of that is right and good experience. There's a difference between responsibility and blame, Daniel. And as for me, I don't blame you for anything. Your kids are lucky to have you as a dad. And Old rhino had a good run with you too. We'll be right back. All right. We are back. Gosh. Kelly 2.0. Get us out of that one, by the way. Like, and subscribe the show. Send the episodes to all your friends. Wow. All right, Kelly 2.0.

Kelly 2.0 (51:39)

Okay, so we need some good news.

Dr. John DeLoney (51:41)

Okay. Bring it. Okay.

Kelly 2.0 (51:42)

This is from a previous caller. She wrote in, she said, hey, Kelly's rest of the booth and John, I wanted to follow up on a call I had with Deloney back in December 2024. It was about, how do I tell a friend I'm pregnant after she had a miscarriage? The conversation went better than expected. Throughout my pregnancy, our friendship has developed, and we've become quite close. She's a friend I'm grateful to have in my corner. We had a baby on Sunday, a girl, and we named her Kelly.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:13)

No, she didn't.

Kelly 2.0 (52:14)

No, she did it. But she said not really.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:17)

I was gonna say the world's full up on Kelly's right now.

Kelly 2.0 (52:21)

We need more.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:22)

Disagree.

Kelly 2.0 (52:24)

She said not really. I just wanted to see the look on John's face.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:27)

Well, you got it. I thought that was for real.

Daniel (52:29)

Gosh.

Kelly 2.0 (52:30)

It's actually a baby boy named Isaac. I wanted to let y' all know the conversation and birth were better than expected. And I was even listening to a recent episod while in labor. My friend is eager to meet my baby, and I'm so thankful for stepping out and having the hard conversation because it turned something. Because it turned into something unexpectedly beautiful. Y' all are changing lives. Keep up the wonderful work.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:53)

That's awesome. The only problem I have with that is Isaac. Really? I think John would have been an amazing name for your son, but whatever. Hey, dude, that's so awesome. Thanks for having the courage to call in and the courage to go have that hard phone call. That's. And then, I mean, the beauty that. That came from that. That vulnerability is awesome. So very cool. Take care of each other out there. I love you guys. Keep making good choices and choose kindness.