Dr. John DeLoney (4:09)

What was his job? What was he trying to. To do?

Melissa (4:13)

Be a full time musician?

Dr. John DeLoney (4:15)

Okay, so he was out there grinding it. Was he laying around all day? Was he trying to book shows?

Melissa (4:22)

He was at home practicing and some shows every now and again.

Dr. John DeLoney (4:26)

Okay. Hmm. When you had the conversation with him about being friends with somebody, how'd that go?

Melissa (4:38)

Well, he, I mean, it was basically more than a friendship. So the context there is he was really upset at me after I said I wanted to continue the marriage because he felt like he had already process through the grief of that and then allowed himself to develop feelings for this co worker. And so that was definitely a tension that we had to navigate. And he, I mean, he just didn't feel like it was a problem because there wasn't actually a relationship happening between them.

Dr. John DeLoney (5:16)

So I guess the word that keeps coming to mind is clarity or something we say around the office all the time. And I've said to people for years is clear as kind. And so tell me if I'm wrong here, but there's a difference in saying I'm signing up to follow your dreams. I'm increasingly frustrated that you're not making any money or you're not moving the family along in a way that I want to. So back then, was there ever a conversation about, I know you have this dream, I know you want to do this at the end of every month for us, we need you to bring in this many dollars, or was it, okay, tell me about that.

Melissa (6:11)

So there were definitely conversations around that. And you know, I said, this is just the lay of the land. This is what has happened thus far. And I'm not upset at that because there is some amount of investment that needs to go into this. But I need your help. This is the amount of money we need you to bring in. And I mean, he's really never had a full time job at that point. And so it was difficult for him to understand what that meant and how he could do it. And so he would get small jobs every year and again. And it wasn't really ever enough. And it wasn't actually a behavior change. And so, I mean, that was the reason why we got separated. And when we did that actually did work. He went, he got a job, found roommates, paid his own bills, and was responsible for all of that. So because of that behavior change and learning about it at the end of it, we decided to move forward.

Dr. John DeLoney (7:19)

And so where are you now?

Melissa (7:23)

Well, now I have. So since then I have asked him, you know, recently, finding out that he still is in contact with her, I expressed, you know, I feel really uncomfortable with this because she messaged you after you told her we were working on our marriage. Something like you deserve, you know, to be with someone who treats you better or something like that.

Dr. John DeLoney (7:45)

Okay, that's super fair. Then that means yes, I. She's not getting the message. And that, that deserves a total cut off. Not talking to you. End of communication. Totally get that. And so how can I help you?

Melissa (7:59)

Yeah, so I'm just wondering what. How I move forward with this or what's the conversation I can have with him to help him understand the severity of it?

Dr. John DeLoney (8:11)

Well, I mean it. It sounds like the language you're using sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife. And he's shown the ability to, when he's on his own, to go do his own thing. But there's something about Yalls dynamic that he immediately falls into. Yes, ma'. Am. Or ignoring you like teenage boys do with their moms. Right. And. And what I'm wondering is one of two things. One is he has maybe what I would call it an emotional, call it romantic, because that's kind of just silly. An emotional connection with somebody else that he doesn't have with you because you're his mom and he likes the idea of a girlfriend. That's one idea. Another idea is he's just a complete and utter man child liar. Or the third thing is a weird combination of both, which is you married a musician with dreams of both of Y' all hitting it big, right? He hits it big, and then you get to go along for the ride. And that creates a cool life for y'. All. And then you would say, hey, we need this dollar amount. I need you to. You have to go make $650 this month, like, through any number of combination of things, shows, whatever. But you got to make this much money because this is how much it takes to run this house. And maybe he would play one show and work some odd jobs and come up with 500 of that or 600 of that. But for you, that finish line kept moving, and it was like, no, no, I don't mean get a. Get a part time job to get that 650. I meant you need to get a real job. And you see what I'm saying? Like, the bar just keeps moving and moving. I don't want you to be friends. Okay, I won't. I'm gonna go sit down with her and say, I thought I was getting divorced. I was already starting to look over the fence, and I'm not doing that anymore. This is over. And then she's like, cool, and reaches back out, like, are you sure? And you see, you get what I'm saying? And I'm just wondering if. If he is in a position. I'm not saying what he's doing is right. In fact, if he was on the phone right now, I would. I would be all over him for still having contact with this person. But I'm wondering if he is in a position where he can ever win with you or is the finish line keep moving and moving because you're just wholly unsatisfied with him as a guy. That sounds like you don't respect him, and it's hard to be romantically involved with somebody that you do not respect. Are you a safe place for him to come home to?

Melissa (10:42)

I believe so.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:44)

And he can. He can just drop down and tell you what's going on in his heart and his mind and with his music and with the songs and his writing and all. Like, you're a safe place for that.

Melissa (10:52)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:52)

Okay, then. Have you. Have you sat down and said, I feel less loved and less safe when you're talking to this person? That's why.

Melissa (11:01)

Yes.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:02)

And he said, I don't really care how you feel or what you want.

Melissa (11:06)

He said, well, she's just a friend. I don't know what you want me to do.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:10)

Okay, then what he's doing is he's saying, I'm choosing her over you. It's just that simple.

Melissa (11:16)

Exactly. He's choosing whatever friendship that is over my feelings. And I don't really know what next steps are.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:28)

I think you do know what the next steps are. They're just really challenging. Okay, let's sit down and let's use I statements.

Melissa (11:36)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:36)

And maybe you spend some time really getting to the bottom of what you are experiencing and say the words when you enter into that conversation with you. And then you. And then you. Then he's going to play defense. I don't understand why you're being like this. I don't understand why that. And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a different. There's a different path to get to where you really want to get to, which is, why is my husband the guy that I'm trying to build something with? Why is he getting emotional connection? Why is he getting his needs met with another woman? That makes me feel small and less than. Because then you start trying to defend yourself with, I make all this money. I have a job in the business world. I'm letting you go play music for a living. I'm right. And now we're into scorekeeping, then we're getting into contempt. I am somehow better than you in this relationship. And so why are you doing this?

Melissa (12:34)

Well, I've definitely been there before and have worked through that. And so, yeah, I completely agree that there. There's a lot of things that I need to do on my side to maybe communicate that better. And I certainly have expressed it in that way. Makes me feel uncomfortable.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:54)

Yeah. And what's the thing beneath. What's the thing beneath uncomfortable?

Melissa (13:03)

What's the thing? When I say that, what do I mean?

Dr. John DeLoney (13:06)

Your body makes you feel uncomfortable, but feelings are simply the lights on a dashboard of your car. What is that discomfort? What is it signaling to your body?

Melissa (13:16)

Yeah, that I'm not enough.

Dr. John DeLoney (13:18)

There you go. That's what he needs to hear. I feel like not enough. And I've tried to get your love by making a bunch of money. I've tried to get your love by letting you go do this stuff that I still think is kind of boyish and childish, but go be you. And I don't feel like I'm enough. And then maybe asking a hard question, do I make you feel like you're not enough? But that's the only way you're going to get to the true root of this issue. And if he says, I just can't talk to you about this stuff, and I like her company more than yours. Then you got a guy who is invested in another woman. You're going to have to deal with that reality, which might put you back at that table of, I don't want to be married to you. Then often, though, when people get to the underneath the. You make me feel uncomfortable. You're making me feel like this. Instead of saying, I feel less than. That's almost always the place where the only true healing can happen, is there. Because my hope is he's a guy who doesn't want to make his wife feel less than. My hope is he's a guy who has figured out I can't talk and be fully myself in my own home. And so I'm doing something that's wrong and unethical and not integrous by reaching out to other women to get that. But that's the true nature here, and that's the conversation it feels like y' all are avoiding. Maybe you haven't avoided that and you've actually said those things in the past. And if so, then you've got a hard decision to make about. You've got a husband who is emotionally invested in another woman and is having his needs met there. And that's emotional infidelity. And you're gonna have to deal with that. And I can't tell you how to deal with that. Whether you leave that marriage, you make peace, and that. That's going to be your call to make. But I always want people to take that one last step and go one layer deeper and say, here's what my body's trying to get my attention about. I feel small and less than in my own house. I'm trying to love you, and I'm not getting through. And also say this to you and to everybody. Listen. It feels like when you come through a big, monumental moment in a marriage like you guys did, you were at the table to sign divorce papers and you walked away and you said, no, let's do this again. It feels like that will be the once and for all. That's the last time we'll ever come to a crossroads. And I guess what I want to pass along to everybody is marriage is full of multiple crossroads. And you can look at those one of two ways. You can look at crossroads that come up on multiple occasions as this is the last straw. One time it was about money. Now it's about, I'm asking you to not follow somebody on Instagram. Now it's about you're yelling at our kids, and I want you to yell. You can. You can Say strike three, you're out. I'm out of this thing. Or you can look at it this way. My wife said this once, and I love it. She said, because of the hard stuff we've been through, I know there is nothing that we can't overcome. So when we come to these new crossroads and these new crossroads, it's a moment to exhale because we've been through hard stuff before and so we can get through hard stuff again. All that's going to matter, though, is if both of you can get to the real root and say, here's where I am on this one. And hear me say, everybody, I think he's wrong. I think he's in the wrong. But there may be a context to his action, and that's what I want you to explore. Thanks for the call, sister. I really, really appreciate it. And if he ever wants to call, I'd love to talk to him, too. We come back, a woman wants to know how to help her husband open up about sex. All right, it's time for a quick word about Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints, the things we're doing online, are starting to feel more like digital trails leading bad guys and scammers right back to us. 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Stop the phishing attacks and the harassment and the other online threats before they start and take control of your digital privacy. With Delete me, go to joindeleteme.com Deloney today for 20% off their annual plan. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's joindeleteme.com DeLoney hey, it's DeLoney. For organifi. I talk to people every day who are stressed out. They're anxious, they're not sleeping well, they're disconnected and they're grumpy. And most of them are trying to fix all of their challenges with comfort food or caffeine or scented candles. Can we all just agree that none of that stuff is probably working? That's where organifi comes in. Organifi superfood products are made to help you feel better with more energy, less stress and helps you get better sleep by giving your body what it needs without all of the artificial nonsense. Here's a good example. I love organifi's happy drops. They're little gummies made with all natural ingredients like saffron that have positive effects on on mood and emotional well being. In fact, there are clinical studies showing that people who take saffron have improved social relationships. And there's other studies that show saffron can help lift your mood. Listen, I can talk about ingredients and clinical studies and all of that, but here's the best endorsement of organifi that I can give. I use organifi every single day. I have family members who take organifi. I travel with it, I take it at home. And I want you to give organifi a try too. Go to Organifi.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to save 20%. That's 20% off your entire order with code DeLoney@Organifi.com DeLoney all right, let's go up to Canada, to Edmonton and talk to Rachel. Hey Rachel, what's up?

Rachel (19:47)

Hey, John. So my husband and I have been married for almost 20 years. We both come from conservative backgrounds. Over the past few years, I've been doing a lot of inner work to heal from shame and harm caused by the church impurity culture. And as a result, I now feel a sense of freedom in this area and have been the one initiating conversations with my husband about sex. He will engage, but says the topic still makes him uncomfortable and has said he would honestly prefer not to talk about not to talk about it at all. How can I help my husband be more comfortable discussing sex?

Dr. John DeLoney (20:17)

Wow. So tell me, like, give me an example of a situation where he just shuts down.

Rachel (20:23)

So I shared with him like one of my fantasies and he just listened and didn't really respond at all. I have asked him, like, what turns you on? Like for me it's this thing or that thing. What gets you excited? And he's like, when you're naked and doesn't Say anything else. And I'm like, okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (20:42)

Oh, the simple male mind. All, all the, all the guys in the booth are just nodding like, well, that's kind of it.

Rachel (20:48)

So I'm like, there has to be more. Like.

Dr. John DeLoney (20:53)

I guess there's, there's two sides of this. Number one, tell me why there has to be more. What if, what if his ultimate fantasy is you?

Rachel (21:07)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:08)

And that, that may not be the case. And I, I know there's deeper layers to this, but I just want to hold that potential. What if the source of his fantasy is you?

Rachel (21:21)

I guess I never thought about it that way because in my head I'm like, oh, you know, I assumed you would like this thing or what about this? Or I have fantasies about doing this with you. Like, what about you? And he'll respond like nothing.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:32)

And I'm like, okay, but when you try to enact some of your fantasies with him, does he go along with it? Is he all in?

Rachel (21:40)

No, he'll, he'll be like, oh, that's crazy dirty. Or just listen and not really say anything. And then it just makes me feel kind of stupid for being so vulnerable.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:48)

Okay, there it is, right there.

Rachel (21:49)

Well received.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:50)

So that, that I think is, is the first thing I want to talk through. You've done all this work to heal from shame, but you moved from your parents approval to your church's approval. And now you've, you've, you've, you've wiped that up. You haven't wiped it clean. That's not fair. You have unhooked yourself from those judgments. But you outsource it to him.

Rachel (22:17)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (22:18)

And now he's like, yeah, it's just. That's kind of out there. And that, that 9 year old girl or that 17 year old girl or that 22 year old girl goes whoosh all the way back again. Yet another person telling you that the way you feel about sex is somehow wrong or dirty or not enough. So tell me about the outsourcing of that.

Rachel (22:41)

Could you clarify your question?

Dr. John DeLoney (22:42)

Do you feel like you're gross for having a fantasy that you want to try out with your husband?

Rachel (22:49)

I mean, I don't want to feel gross because I'm so happy that I don't feel shame anymore.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:56)

Yeah, except you do feel shame when he looks at you and doesn't, doesn't answer you back.

Rachel (23:02)

Yeah, I feel like, kind of like he's judging me.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:04)

There you go. Is he really judging you? Because if he is and he's a jerk and we can, we could take a different path. Here. Is he judging you or is he just saying, oh, I'm not into that fantasy, but good on you?

Rachel (23:16)

I don't think he's judging. I think it is just kind of like, oh, that's a crazy fantasy. Yours. But yeah, he's not into it.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:21)

Okay, does it feel lonely or isolating or you feel nuts? What do you feel?

Rachel (23:29)

Yeah, I guess I just feel like I'm so excited and like all in. In this area. And I feel like he just wishes I would have stayed in this box.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:37)

Ah, there you go. Is that a story you're telling yourself or has he told you that story?

Rachel (23:43)

That's a story I'm telling myself.

Dr. John DeLoney (23:44)

Okay. Is there anything in your mind or your more than your mind, in your experience that says he doesn't love being with you? He doesn't like making love to you, doesn't like going along with some of your wild stuff? Not maybe not the extent fantasies, but like, all right, I want to try this tonight. He's like, absolutely not. We're not doing that. We are going old school missionary. We're done in 30 seconds. And we're like. Or does he. Or does he go along with you?

Rachel (24:13)

He sometimes will be flexible, but he's. He's a man of routine for sure. Okay, so he just likes the good old classic.

Dr. John DeLoney (24:23)

A man of routine. That's fantastic. Good old classic. And just know that millions of men listening to this are just banging their dashboard in their car right now. Like, why? Right. And so. So have you gone again? I feel like this is kind of a recurring theme in the show. Have you gone that layer deeper and said, hey, I've put some things on the table. I've tried to be vulnerable. And when you just kind of blow it off, I feel that deep sense of shame again. I feel like you don't like the person who I. I don't feel like you like a sexualized wife that wants to be with you all the time and. And be curious and be playful and be exploratory together.

Rachel (25:06)

Yeah, I said that. And we're just in different places right now, which is fine. I don't think anybody's desires match up 100% of the time. And so for me, I'm the one with the higher interest and he's not. And so I think it's harder to. For him to want to be all in when he's just mentally not.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:23)

Why isn't he mentally in?

Rachel (25:28)

He's sure, you know, he. He feels nothing lately. Like, he doesn't feel excitement. He doesn't feel joy. He doesn't look forward to anything. And we've talked about, you know, him possibly seeking out therapy or seeing a doctor and things like that, and he isn't interested. And so, you know, just any excitement at all, never mind when it comes to the bedroom. He's just. He's a good, loving husband and he'll participate. He'll participate. But.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:58)

Is. Is that. How much of this story is that? That you're watching the life drain out of. Of the guy that you love?

Rachel (26:11)

Yeah, I thought about that. Lately, he hasn't been, you know, when you meet, of course, like two decades ago, it's. You're different. You're teenagers. You have no responsibilities, no kids. But he was definitely more full of life and vibrant and fun and funny, and he hasn't been that way for a long time.

Dr. John DeLoney (26:27)

Yeah. And is there some part of you, the person, raised a people pleaser, to please everybody at your church and please everybody at your house that is trying to run around and trying to solve that for him or that's taking ownership?

Rachel (26:43)

It's hard for me not to feel his mood. Like, if he's depressed and I feel depressed and I'm like, how can I fix it? Or if he's, you know, angry, I feel like I turtle and I did something wrong. Like, it's hard for me not to feel his emotions. But I know that I can't fix anything. That's up to him. That's his job.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:02)

I know, but can I just tell you, you're a pretty amazing wife.

Rachel (27:06)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:09)

This is when a lot of wives cash out. And I'm. I'm so grateful to know there's a wife like you out there that loves her husband so much that she sees him dying in his own skin and is really trying to make an effort, reach out to him. That's awesome.

Rachel (27:26)

Thank you.

Dr. John DeLoney (27:27)

And when we're live such busy lives, you'll have kids, too. Okay. You got kids running around. You just got chaos everywhere. A lot of times, especially in certain seasons, the only. Only thing we have left to get our pulse rate up that's not on a screen somewhere is sex. And I, man, I high five you for getting, like, going and going back and mining your depths and getting your healing done and for exhaling honestly for his sake and for your marriage's sake, I. I really think you'll need to go talk to somebody. And I know it can be hard when you have a stubborn husband who just is like, I ain't doing that, or I'm Too busy or whatever. But I think it's worth saying, hey, I'm not doing a great job of communicating with you, and I'd love for you to go talk to somebody with me, because I want to do a better job. It would mean a lot if you came with me.

Rachel (28:20)

So what if I have said that and he's already said he doesn't want to?

Dr. John DeLoney (28:25)

Then I think the next layer is, is I'm feeling unsafe and unloved in this house. Because that's the truth.

Rachel (28:31)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (28:32)

Do you ever say this? I need you. I want you.

Rachel (28:44)

Yeah, I do need to want him. I don't know how often I say that, but.

Dr. John DeLoney (28:48)

I can just tell you. I was on the road for the last two months. I was touring all over the place, and I got home, and things are always a little bit just. Everyone's just trying to figure out their routines. And I missed finals week for my son. I was just out and about, and my wife just said a week ago, sitting by each other on the front porch, looking out over our property, she said, I think I realized why. I was just out of sorts. And I was like, why is that? And she said, I need you. I'm gonna tell you right now, dude, I got a great marriage. But that felt like a cup of cold water in a desert. There's a lot of conversation about quote, unquote, mental load that women carry. And it's exorbitant. It's crazy. It's a lot. It's. It's astounding. The dentist appointments and the schools out and the lunches and all of it, and the. The bills, like, there's so much. I get it. I think there's been a misrepresentation or a lack of understanding or not even conversation about the mental load that men carry. It's so heavy, and it's way out into the future, and it's not always real, but it's so heavy. And most men I know are walking around their lives feeling like they're just a failure at everything. And so some. A wife reaching out and grabbing their husband's hand, figuratively, are literally saying, I need you to. This is a path. You can love me, and I'm asking you to come with me. I'm not telling you you need to. I'm asking you, please come with me. That might be the shot. And all I can say is it worked with me. And I thank God every day of my life that my wife asked me to do that, because it unlocked healing in me that I didn't know, needed to be healed. And I think I'm an infinitely better husband and a better communicator and a better dad, better citizen because my wife said, I need you. Thanks for the call, sister. I'm really, really grateful. And hey, I would be honored if he would call in. He probably won't, but, man, I would love to talk to him. That would be awesome because I've been in that seat before. I'd love for him to call. We come back, a woman asks how to raise concern for her husband's lack of friends. Sounds like we got a theme on this show. Be right back. Poncho is back. As a supporter of this show, and I'm stoked about it. If you have seen me speaking on stages across the country, if you watch this show, or if you recently ran into me when I was fishing with my son out at Gulf Shores in Alabama, or if you've even seen me mowing my acres out here in Nashville, I'm almost always wearing poncho shirts inside and outside. Poncho makes the absolute best outdoor performance shirts for men, period. Whether they are sponsoring the show or not. You're going to almost always see me wearing poncho. And of course, I love their denims and their insanely soft flannels. But now that it's super hot outside, I'm wearing poncho shirts outside, too. They're lightweight and they're breathable, yet they're still tough enough to handle whatever chaos my day brings. And I'm talking everything from travel to being up to my chest, fishing in the surf or doing yard work. These shirts move with you, not against you. They dry fast and they don't cling or bunch up. And they come in slim or regular fits. So you're not walking around like a circus tent or like a sausage link. Head over to ponchooutdoors.com DeLoney and try them for yourself. And right now, new customers get $10 off their first poncho purchase. Just sign up with your email. Go to ponchooutdoors.com DeLoney and trust me, Poncho ultralight shirts will turn into your summer essentials, too. All right, Charlotte, North Carolina, let's talk to Morgan. Hey, Morgan, what's up?

Morgan (32:27)

Hey, how are you?

Dr. John DeLoney (32:28)

I'm all right. How about you?

Morgan (32:31)

Doing good. Excited to cannonball into this question. As I've heard you say, let's do it.

Dr. John DeLoney (32:37)

Cannonball. Top rope. Let's do it.

Morgan (32:40)

So how do I kindly encourage my massively introverted husband to make friends? Because I Am his only best friend and if I, if something happened to me, he would have his family, who are lovely people. But he has no like really close male friendships. He did in college, but those have dissipated. They still like group text occasionally, but I just. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Anthill. No, molehill. And is, is it, how do I go about this? Because I just, I'm lost.

Dr. John DeLoney (33:27)

No, I mean there's, there's multiple things here, but. No, your instincts are right. Men are lonelying themselves to death in record numbers.

Morgan (33:37)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (33:37)

Yeah. They are netflixing themselves to death. They are gambling themselves to death. They are lonelying themselves, they're pornographing themselves to death. They're. They're just, just slowly dying. Most of that I think comes from. There's no more shared purpose. There is zero shared purpose anymore. It doesn't exist. And I think there's not a, there's not a. Like, that's why there's those long text threads. That was the last. Like, there's reasons why 40 year old men get together and still talk about that old football game that one time. Because that was the last time most men were a part of something bigger than themselves.

Morgan (34:20)

Yeah. And he, like, I'm flying out to see my best friend tomorrow and I'm coming back Sunday and I know while I'm at work, I know exactly what he's going to do. He's going to around while I'm visiting her. He's going to go to work, he's going to come home, take care of our dogs, cook himself dinner, watch him show or read a book and go to bed. Like I could, I would bet my left arm that that is what he's going to do. And it's just, it's not great and it makes me sad and okay, I don't know what to do about it.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:51)

Okay, but, but let's not, let's not judge him for the life that he's choosing. Get to the deeper pathology or the, the deeper struggle here, to use a not nerdy word. Are you, are you being asked to carry a disproportionate or. Let me ask it this way. Have you become his trash dump? You're the only person he talks to about politics, about religion, about work, about money, about people. And you just get dumped on every day.

Morgan (35:18)

I would describe it not as getting dumped on, I mean, but yes, I'm pretty much his everything. I'm his best friend. And we get like, he is a lovely human. Like we get along great. We have A ton of fun together. And he does have a co worker who he's like a previous co worker. I'm sorry, who he hangs out with, like, once every three to six months. And she's great. Like, they get along great. But, like, that's kind of the extent of his socialization. And he had, like, some really good friends in college.

Dr. John DeLoney (35:52)

But is he happy? Is he happy? Is he happy? Or are you seeing something in him that you're worried about?

Morgan (36:01)

So we check in and I ask, like, hey, are you happy? I haven't. Normally it's more in a romantic sense. But yes, like, he says he's happy. The last check in we had was like, a couple weeks ago, and it was great. Like, he said, hey, I am happy. And it was a little context. I was having a panic attack. He sat through it with me, and part of the pan attack was something that he said one way that I heard a totally different way. What was that?

Dr. John DeLoney (36:38)

What do you say?

Morgan (36:41)

Basically, so we. It was a Saturday, and I. We just got back from the grocery store, and he was about to go outside to mow the lawn and weed, eat and do all that fun man stuff. And he. We were gonna go see a movie, and I basically was just like, I don't think we have time. And so what said was, it's okay. I'm used to it. And what he. He genuinely meant that, like, it's okay. Like, it's not a big deal. I heard it as I am unhappy. We get to. We don't get to go, you know, do things like what I want. And that's not what he meant. That's how I heard it from my own issues and trauma and blah, blah, blah. So I had a panic attack. So it was kind of like the needle that, you know, or the straw that broke Camel's back. And he saw me had it. He sat through with them before with me and held my hand and, you know, been great. And so he went outside after I finished, and then he came back and was like, hey, I just want you to know I'm really sorry. I said, like, it came out that way. I love you and I'm happy. And that's the. That's the context that he said. So he just seems completely unbothered that he doesn't have any friends. And so I don't know if I'm making a big deal, but I know if he didn't have me, he would not have any close relationships. And it kind of.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:06)

But hold on, hold on, hold on. It bothers Me, I think two things. One, he may be such a good man in his mind that he always wants to make sure he's available for you in case something happens.

Morgan (38:22)

I never thought of that.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:23)

He may love you so much that he. How dare he go waste time drinking beers with some buddies, watching the fights. Because if my wife has a panic attack, if my wife isn't okay, I'm going to be here.

Morgan (38:38)

That's true.

Dr. John DeLoney (38:40)

But hold on. Hold on. And it may be that you are making up a story in your mind that if it weren't for you, he would have nothing. A harder reality is, if you were to go away, he might have lots of fun and friends. You know why? Hold on. You know why? Because he did before. Yeah, just sit in it. Hold on. Just sit in it. He did before. And so the reality is he just might. And you have to ask yourself, whoa, if he was going out to hang out with friends once a weekend and once or twice, would I be okay with that? Or if he texted me and said, hey, I'm running 30 minutes late, and I spun off into a panic attack again because I'm so close to the edge most of the time, would I be okay if he wasn't there to sit with me and ride it out?

Morgan (39:41)

Well, in. In he. I mean, yes, I've had them when I'm completely alone and I'm medicated. Like, I mean, it doesn't happen like, every day or anything, but I don't know if that's the issue or not, because he had. What I was trying to get to earlier was, so he had a really good group of friends in college, and he was even supposed to go on a boys trip with them last November, but he canceled. Not because of me.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:15)

They.

Morgan (40:17)

They like to party. And he's just passed that in his life.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:20)

Sure.

Morgan (40:21)

And they were just talking about some things that. That made him uncomfortable, and so he just bailed and made up an excuse. And so. But I encouraged him. I was like, you should totally go. Have a great time. I'll take care of the dogs. Don't worry about anything. And so those are the only other people that he has, like, even remote friendships with. And they group text occasionally, but that's it. And so I don't really know what to do.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:56)

So here's a path forward. One is I would sit down with him and say, hey, I want us to make more friends around town.

Rachel (41:07)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:08)

And you're about to get on a plane and fly away to your friends. I want you to start being vocal about I want us to have friends locally here. And my wife and I, I left in my own devices. I would end up with my old text threads. I'd hang out with nobody ever, ever. And I would go hunting in the fall with people. But here's what happens when you go hunting. Nobody says anything. You're not allowed to talk. And we'd go sit in the woods next to each other and say no words. And then I'd go and be like, all right, way to go. And then I'd help somebody drag a deer out of the woods. And then I'd be like, man, I hung out with my friends.

Morgan (41:45)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:45)

You know what I mean? And so, left to my own devices, I could get there really quickly. And here's the. Here's. I've dug into why. Here's why. I have no shared experiences with somebody. And in a man's world, leading with emotions or with vulnerability is a way to get yourself excommunicated from the party.

Morgan (42:06)

Okay?

Dr. John DeLoney (42:06)

And so this sounds so ridiculous, but when I say, hey, we're having a couple over for dinner, and my wife's like, awesome, who is it? And I tell them, she's like, great, that's cool. Now I've got a shared purpose. That's why guys go stand around a grill, because they can pretend that they're doing a thing.

Morgan (42:23)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (42:24)

Because in their normal day, if I just sit on a couch and be like, hey, bro, how's your heart? It'll be like, all right, I'm not coming back here. But when we grill together and we're shoulder to shoulder, and I can say, man, I've been worried about my finances lately. He can go without making eye contact. Yeah, I know, man. And, hey, can you help me build a fence? Can you help me move a thing? Andrew, who's over here running the. The screens right now, I asked him, can I hire you for a Saturday to teach me how to weld and teach my son how to weld. I want my son to learn how to do it more than me. I think in the world he's inheriting, he's gonna have to learn how to weld. So I want to know how to do it, and he knows how to do it.

Rachel (43:05)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:05)

But I didn't ask Andrew to come over to my house and share his feelings with me. But I promise you, through welding, spending a day welding together, he'll learn a lot about my feelings and how insecure I am. You get what I'm saying? And so setting up things that we can technically do together, or that there are shared experiences. Or in our house, we had to put one on the calendar. We will have one couple. We'll have one group of people to our house once per week, period. That's just a rule we made in the house. And we don't always stick to it, but most of the time we have somebody over at the house.

Rachel (43:44)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:44)

And it's a wacky cascade of characters that comes over to our house. And I love it. I love it for us, I love for our kids, I love it for my friend, like all of it. And I've made some great friends out of it.

Morgan (43:55)

So more of like a hey, let's do this together type of thing, I think.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:00)

Absolutely. So that's my thought there. Morgan, I think you have to wrestle with. He doesn't see seem that there's a problem. And so feeling the problem in your chest and then saying, you need to go do this to fix my. My angst. That's a recipe for things not getting fixed or for him going to sit at a bar with a couple of dudes and being like, hey, hey, have you tried the hot hot wings? No. Cool. All right, man, see you later. Like Big gulps, huh? Like, it's just not a recipe for that. Shared experiences. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Hey. And we come back. I have a very important segment that I've never done before. So hang with me. Cozy Earth time. Listen, hearing the term nine to five go, what a drag. It makes me think of a boss with coffee breath or co workers that have no boundaries. Or some of you are working from home with kids running around and dogs barking, everyone acting bonkers. That's why Cozy Earth wants to make your 5 to 9 the time that matters most, the most comfortable part of your day. Cozy Earth is a big part of how my wife and I make our home warm and cozy. My wife gets into her cozy Earth PJs as early as possible without it being weird. And I love Cozy Earth T shirts and pants because they're soft and breathable. But they're also tough. They survived my front yard wrestling matches with my daughter and my long slow jogs with my son. Plus, my whole family loves Cozy Earth's temperature regulating sheets. They naturally wick away heat and moisture from our bodies. They help all of us sleep several degrees cooler. Cozy Earth is so confident, they offer a hundred night sleep trial. Try them during the hottest nights of the year and if you don't love them absolutely, you can return them hassle free. And of course Cozy earth offers a 10 year warranty on all bedding products. And that makes for a decade of amazing sleep. Go to cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney for 40% off their best selling temperature regulating sheets, apparel, towels and more. Trust me, you're gonna feel the difference. That's cozyearth.com DeLoney and code DeLoney to save 40% off your entire order. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter and stay cozy. All right, we're back. So a few weeks ago I was on tour and I had an opportunity to meet with a woman who's become a great friend of mine over the last five years. And she is an executive at BetterHelp, the, the counseling service that I recommend online that's available 24 7. Like it's not 24 7, but it's available online or on your phone. And we had a great conversation backstage and she sent me a study and I just want to just call out. I'm always skeptical of studies, especially that are done by companies, right? Because I always think, man, there's going to be a bias there. But I read through it and I think this study's exactly what I'm reading in the regular literature and it's especially what I'm experiencing with people over and over and over again. And so the name of this study they named it is the State of Stigma. And here's some of the data points in the study. 76% of people, that's seven and a half out of 10 people, believe that talking to a therapist is actually helpful. Six out of 10 people though believe that society discourages people from actually talking to somebody. And if you dump men into that conversation, as some of the calls on this show, I think it's even higher. There's this idea that if I go talk to a counselor, if I go talk to a therapist, I have failed in my ability to fix myself. We don't think that about air conditioning. We don't think that about our roof. We don't think about a crack in our driveway. But for some reason we think if I have to go talk to somebody, I have failed me. Or I can just put the answers into chat GPT as though the answer is what I'm looking for. Here's another one. Gen Z is highly engaged in mental health content. They scroll these things, they listen to my show and other shows like it. They are scrolling tick tock. But they're very distrustful of therapy, saying that a therapist would never understand me. Here's another one. Those spending four plus hours on Social media are more likely to feel judged and skeptical of therapy. By the way, if you pull that data further, people spending four plus hours on social media feel like everyone in every circle is judging them. That's why there is caustic literature about girls, especially teenage girls, and being on social media a lot. And if you add different types of behaviors, like violence behaviors or checking out completely and just playing video games 19 hours a day, boys are experiencing it too. It just looks different. The pathology is expressed in different ways. Here's another one. Parents of young kids strongly believe in therapy, but face high stigma and high cost and high time barriers. I don't have time to leave work, drive for 45 minutes in traffic, go talk to a therapist for an hour, and then drive 45 minutes back. If I'm working hourly, I just burned three hours of wage, not to mention how much it cost to go see the therapist. So here's the deal. There is stigma when it comes to getting help. And I am so one of the highest honors I've ever been able to experience in my life is the millions of people that listen to the show or watch this show. It's amazing. And I get your letters and I get your DMs and I get your emails and I get so much great feedback on when I'm on the road and thousands of people come out to a live event. Just the lines and I'm signing books and man, it means the world to me that you're picking up ideas and learning things. That's amazing. And you're applying them in your homes with your kids, with your spouses, with your boyfriends and girlfriends, with your workplace. That's so great. So I do this show and there's, there's a percentage of people, a large percentage of people that like myself, need to go sit down and exhale in front of somebody and be seen and be heard for the first time. So I just want to say this a, I want to thank my buddy at better help and I want to thank the better help people that like when there's lines of like, yeah, you can come see this therapist, there's a six month waiting list, or yes, you can come see this person, but you got to pay $200 because they only take cash and they don't. I don't have $200. Right. I want to say this out loud. If you're struggling with something, please go talk to somebody. Call one of your buddies. I promise you one of your buddies is going through something similar. I promise you, before you blow your marriage up. Before you text that man or that woman back, before you go spend money that you don't have, talk to somebody. Talk to a friend. If you're a person of faith and you have a safe religious community, not that someone's going to beat you up for having thoughts or fears or anxieties, go talk to somebody at your local church. If you can, go see a counselor or a therapist in your local community, please go do that. I do that regularly. And if cost is an issue, if time is an issue, if convenience is an issue, if just the anonymity is an issue, please reach out to my friends of BetterHelp. We have to, as a community, as a society, we have to go through that stigma we've got. The world needs a whole bunch of regulated adults because things are skidding off the tracks. And look around at what you've tried to do to solve your anxiety, to solve your depression, to solve your. Your yelling at your kids, to solve your frustration. Every time your spouse says something, you just go into a hole or you want to come out swinging. What we're doing isn't working. And it's strange that all the literature points back to other people are the solution for so much of these issues. So please jump right through that stigma. I know it's real. I felt it myself. I remember the first time I took anxiety meds and I sat at my kitchen table and I wept. I felt like such a loser and a failure. I've been there. I've been there. I've been there. Walk through the stigma and reach out and talk to somebody. And I'm telling you right now, men, I'm especially talking to you. I don't care how many tattoos you have. I don't care how big your truck is. I don't care how much you think you're failing your wife or your kids. Call somebody. I love you guys. Bye.