Why Everyone Is Addicted to Something (12 Steps to Overcome Negative Patterns) | Ian Morgan Cron

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. Josh Axe Show – "Why Everyone Is Addicted to Something (12 Steps to Overcome Negative Patterns)" Featuring Ian Morgan Cron

Introduction to the Episode Dr. Josh Axe welcomes Ian Morgan Cron, the inventor of the Enneagram and author of his new book, The Fix. The episode delves into the pervasive nature of addiction beyond substances, exploring emotional and behavioral dependencies, and introduces a 12-step program aimed at breaking negative patterns to achieve personal breakthroughs.

Shift from Physical to Mental Health Issues Dr. Axe highlights a significant shift in his functional medicine clinic’s focus over the past seven years—from predominantly physical ailments like cancer and diabetes to mental health challenges such as depression, anxiety, and loneliness.

"Today, over the last seven years, it's mental health issues." [00:59]

Role of Social Media and Vulnerability Ian Cron discusses the impact of social media and the increased normalization of vulnerability, suggesting that while sharing emotions is beneficial, excessive openness can be detrimental to mental health.

"Sometimes people find their way there. It's just a natural progress." [02:13]

Understanding Addiction: Definition and Causes The conversation broadens the definition of addiction to include unhealthy compulsions beyond substances, such as workaholism, people-pleasing, and excessive shopping. They emphasize that addiction is deeply rooted in the human condition, intertwined with our neurological and spiritual makeup.

"Addiction is an attempt to find an external solution to an internal problem." [05:14]

The 12-Step Program as a Solution Cron introduces the 12-step program as a biblically grounded, time-tested framework designed to address addictions by fostering a relationship with a higher power, oneself, and others. He likens the steps to a trellis that supports spiritual growth and emotional resilience.

"The 12 steps are a way of life that ultimately equip you to become a useful, purposeful person who is germinating the world with the love of God." [53:46]

Personal Experiences and Stories Both hosts share personal anecdotes illustrating the power of the 12-step program. Dr. Axe recounts a transformative moment with his pastor, realizing the importance of surrendering control. Cron shares a story about apologizing to a coffee shop barista, demonstrating the practical application of the steps in everyday life.

"Transformation is when you give God consent to do for you what you have never been able to do for yourself." [40:12]

Overcoming Resistance to Change They discuss common resistance points, such as denial and the belief that one can overcome addictions alone. Strategies to overcome resistance include continuous engagement with the steps and fostering humility over pride.

"When you give up, when you admit powerlessness, then another power comes in that's not yours." [22:30]

Practical Steps and Integration Cron elaborates on the sequential nature of the 12 steps, emphasizing that each step builds upon the previous one. He advises against attempting to skip steps, as a structured approach is essential for lasting change.

"Step one is we admitted we were powerless over..." [07:23]

Spiritual Transformation and Surrender The hosts explore the spiritual dimensions of the program, highlighting practices like centering prayer that facilitate inner transformation. They stress the importance of surrendering to a higher power to achieve genuine change.

"The steps are not a self-help program. If your help could have, if yourself could have helped, you wouldn't have done that by now." [40:41]

Conclusion and Call to Action Dr. Axe encourages listeners to engage with Cron’s book, The Fix, and to participate in the 12-step program to overcome various forms of addiction and negative patterns. He underscores the transformative potential of the program in fostering emotional balance, spiritual growth, and purposeful living.

"What the steps do is they like that thing in your car where you start to drift out of the lane and it just gently bumps you back." [61:46]

Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• "Addiction is an attempt to find an external solution to an internal problem." – Ian Morgan Cron [05:14]
• "Transformation is when you give God consent to do for you what you have never been able to do for yourself." – Ian Morgan Cron [40:12]
• "When you give up, when you admit powerlessness, then another power comes in that's not yours." – Ian Morgan Cron [22:30]
• "The 12 steps are a way of life that ultimately equip you to become a useful, purposeful person who is germinating the world with the love of God." – Ian Morgan Cron [53:46]
• "The steps are not a self-help program. If your help could have, if yourself could have helped, you wouldn't have done that by now." – Ian Morgan Cron [40:41]
• "Step one is we admitted we were powerless over..." – Ian Morgan Cron [07:23]
• "What the steps do is they like that thing in your car where you start to drift out of the lane and it just gently bumps you back." – Ian Morgan Cron [61:46]

Key Takeaways

• Addiction manifests in various forms beyond substance abuse, impacting mental and emotional well-being.
• The 12-step program offers a structured, spiritually grounded approach to overcoming negative patterns.
• Surrendering control and embracing humility are crucial for lasting transformation.
• Personal anecdotes illustrate the practical and profound impact of the 12 steps in everyday life.
• Engaging with self-examination and fostering relationships with a higher power, oneself, and others are pivotal for emotional resilience and spiritual growth.

Final Thoughts Both Dr. Axe and Ian Cron underscore the universal applicability of the 12-step program, advocating for its integration into daily life to combat addiction and enhance personal growth. They invite listeners to explore The Fix and implement the steps to experience profound, life-changing breakthroughs.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Josh Axe Show. I'm your host, Dr. Axe. And each and every week on this show, we dive deep into the science and principles behind how to grow in body, mind, and spirit and take your health and your life to the next level. Today we've got an incredible episode. Ian Cronizon, he is the inventor of the Enneagram, which I'm a big fan of, and we've talked about it before. And he's the author of a new book called the Fix. It's really about how a certain program and way of thinking and philosophy in life can help you experience breakthroughs. Whether you're struggling with a sugar addiction or a food addiction, or you're a people pleaser, or you have some barrier in your life, in your relationship or your workplace or something professionally that's just keeping you from being who God designed you to be. We're gonna talk about the exact steps, 12 steps, specifically, in order to help you experience that breakthrough that you need in your life. Let's dive in. Ian, welcome to the show.

[B]

Josh. I'm really glad to be here.

[A]

Well, good. Well, hey, we're going to talk about fixing things today. So fixing. A lot of people have a lot of emotional issues, a lot of addictions. I think what's interesting, when I first opened up my functional medicine clinic in Nashville, this was years ago, the most common conditions that were growing were issues like cancer, diabetes, heart disease, hypothyroidism. Today, over the last seven years, it's mental health issues.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's also. Doesn't it. Don't you think it also has something to do with the rise of social media?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And also the normalization of vulnerability. Right. And sometimes people go too far. And sometimes I think to myself, well, that's, you know, okay, that's a little that, you know, in this milieu, that's probably going further than Is probably healthy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think the ability to maintain some level of privacy, not secrecy, but privacy is a healthy thing. Right. And there are contexts in which I can share this and others I shouldn't. Some of those barriers have come down too far. But on the whole, I think that, you know, more younger generations, and particularly since COVID too, you know, I think Covid had a big impact.

[A]

Oh. It radically changed the world. I mean. I mean, it was the biggest shift in the past, you know, hundreds some years, I'm convinced.

[B]

And. And so people have been coming out of the closet, like, man, depression, anxiety, loneliness. Loneliness is endemic. Right. Addictions all. All Manner of things have come out of the closet. And again, I think it's healthier to air those, you know, in, in appropriate settings, in appropriate ways.

[A]

I do think that, you know, when we're talking about what is, you were saying, like everything from depression to anxiety, loneliness, I mean, these are conditions that are continuing to climb and as you're saying, a lot people are more vulnerable about them. And I think that these issues have always been there, but I also think that they are in certain ways more prevalent. Loneliness, for example. Not to say people haven't been lonely, but I think because people have pursued, for instance, social media, I think is a primary example. It's like if you've got a thousand friends on social media, but you're only going shallow with a thousand people, like it's probably healthier to go deep with five people than go shallow with a thousand.

[B]

Yeah, well, the, the irony there is, right, like, like you and I have meaningful sized audiences, right. They're, they may be friends, they may be termed friends on social media. They are not your friends. You know what I mean? Not in the classical sense of the word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and to be reminded of that and to tether your self worth to friends, numbers of friends, or to likes or anything like that is a very slippery slope.

[A]

I mean, how much do you think that has to do with addiction today? Like, people get it, addicting to things in terms of what we're talking about here with, with their identity and connection to others and God and, and other groups.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, addiction is such a tricky creature, right. I think it's part of the human condition. There's a great Christian psychiatrist named Gerald May wrote a classic book book years ago called Addiction and Grace. And one of the things that he said is to be human is to be addicted. And to be addicted and human is to stand in need of grace. So really it's hardwired into us, you know, like, like addiction.

[A]

Well, and I know this, I've said this hormonally. I mean, dopamine is a prime example of this. Even oxytocin and serotonin. So I mean, there's no doubt we are physiologically. Yeah. Wired for addiction. Yeah.

[B]

But you know, Bill Wilson, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, was a genius, really. You know, he was one of these guys who was channeling, you know, God stuff without, I don't even think even knowing he was doing it, you know, which makes it even more brilliant, you know. You know, addiction is so complicated, Right. I think there's a genetic or a biological Component, there's a neurological component, there's a social component, there's an economic component, there's, you know, it's just very, very complicated. But ultimately he said it's principally a spiritual malady. And I think that's right.

[A]

I do too.

[B]

That addiction is an attempt to find an external solution to an internal problem.

[A]

Can I tell you? I think that's true with most health conditions.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I think people struggling with everything from hypothyroidism to autoimmune disease to high blood pressure, it's mostly that exact same thing. I think it's mostly a spiritual problem. Like for instance, blood pressure as a primary example. I mean, yeah, you can eat too much sodium and those sort of things impact it mildly. And some seed oil and inflammatory fats. But for the most part it's stress. And so what's causing stress? Well, it's worry, worrying about your future, it's grieving over your past. It's living in a state of unforgiveness. I mean in Chinese medicine, the way that they look at this and by the way there's a lot more research on this now coming out. But every emotion, different emotions affect different organ systems and cause disease there. So we know for instance that worry affects the digestive system. Good grief. And not letting go of things of your past impacts the lungs and the colon and the immune system. And so I just wanted to reemphasize your point is I think it's almost every problem, health problem at least. And not to say diet doesn't impact it, I think it does. But I actually still think what impacts our health even more than food is our spiritual state.

[B]

Yeah. So let me ask you a question about stress. I've heard it said that stress is what happens when there's greater demand than there is supply.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that, is that true? In other words, if you're stressed because of work, it's because there's more demand for your time than there is supply of it.

[A]

I think that's a great example of it. I think that's a. Because here's what happens is stress isn't all bad. Like in fact if your organs are never stressed, they can't be strengthened. So there is a level of stressing that we actually want. But it's. Yeah. When you over it's the equivalent of our muscles are organs. It's like if I go and try and right now, if I go and try and curl 50 pound dumbbells constantly, I'm eventually going to tear my bicep. It's just too much. But a lot of people are essentially tearing, injuring, doing those very same things to their gut, microbiome, to their arterial walls, to their organs. But I think that's a great. Yeah, A great way to sum it up.

[B]

Yeah. So what's interesting about the 12 steps as a program for living. Right. As a spiritual program for living is. I think it addresses a lot of what we're talking about. Right. Like in. Let's just define an addiction for a second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe we could say that an addiction is an unhealthy compulsive relationship with a, a person, a behavior or a substance that has mood altering effects and negative consequences. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So all those things have to kind of be in place. So if you're a workaholic, for example. Right. You have a unhealthy, compulsive relationship with work and success. Right. That has mood altering effect. Because my self esteem is bolstered by myself, by my success. My identity is reinforced through my success and through my work, et cetera, et cetera. And it has negative consequences because my marriage is tanking. My kids are estranged from me because I'm never around. My health is suffering because I'm working too much. Right. That's just an addictive loop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. You're in an addict's loop at that point. Right. So what the 12 steps do is an outline for living that is very, very biblical. Like they're like, like when I look at the 12 steps of going, okay, that's the gospel in miniature.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Right. Steps one to three are just about making peace with God, getting your relationship with God straightened out.

[A]

Repent.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

And part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or is that, or is that later on?

[B]

Well, it's, that actually runs through the hole.

[A]

Right.

[B]

However, when, when, when I think of the word repent, what I don't think is, okay, I have to crucify myself for being a bad person. Right.

[A]

No, when I, when I use the word, I think the first thing is, and I know the hebraic actually is, is probably more comprehensive. But what I, what I'm saying with that is more. I recognize I've got a problem. And I admit I'm not doing, I'm not, I'm not doing the right thing. Like it's sort of this thing of like I. Okay, I realize and I, and I want to make a change and I'm going to make a change, that I am working too much. And I've put this over my family and over God and over things that are should be a bigger priority.

[B]

Yeah. And the original meaning of that word really is, in the original language, is to change the way you think. Right. Change your mind. Like, just change your mind about what will bring you happiness, what will bring you life, what will. Right. It's just a change of mind. So you think about the prodigal son. It's a perfect example of this.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

He came to his senses.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He changed his mind. He turned and went back home. Right.

[A]

Because that doesn't. Yeah. The root of the word two means to literally change direction. Like go completely the opposite way.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so what the steps do. Right. One through three. All right. Well, we're going to straighten out a relationship with God. Then four through seven, it's just. We're going to straighten out a relationship with ourselves. And then 8 and 9 is we're going to straighten out our relationships with other people. And then 10 through 12 is we're going to cultivate a lifestyle that promotes health and. And produce a generative way of being in the world moving forward. And that's it. I mean, they're simple. They're not easy, but it's super simple, and it covers the gamut of the human experience. And. And it's not just. Well, in the book, I talk about this idea that I just think everybody's an addiction. Right. At some level. Now, some obviously have more fatal consequences quicker. Right. Than others, however.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody's got loops of addiction. Right. And the only way to disentangle ourselves from them, and many of us don't realize how much they're tyrannizing our lives. Right. Is to get these three domains together. Right. And you talk about integration a lot. I think the integration of God's self and others is pretty dang important.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. It's so big. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about. You know, I watched this with Hillsdale College. There's this great Bible study that they had for free that I went through, and there's this expert in Hebrew and Genesis, and he talked about that when you're reading Genesis, that part of what we're called to do is reestablish our relationship with God, with others, and with the earth, actually. Even with our environment. With our environment. And so I think it's very akin to that in terms of we need to redeem these relationships if we're going to be whole again.

[B]

Yes. But that requires a plan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So here's the deal, right? You go to most churches or synagogues or whatever, your spiritual orientation Is right. And if you were to go up to a common person and say to them, do you have a plan for transformation? They look at you like, well, I mean I go to church and I listen to worship music in the car and I praise every now and then. It's like, okay, that's all good. And I don't want to put that down all well intentioned and good. But you don't have a plan.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like, and actually most churches, and I've been a pastor so I know how this works. Right. They don't have a plan for you either. Like, like, like they have programs but no plan. Right. And what the steps provide and I'm not saying it's the only plan, but is a time tested, evidence based. Tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people lives have been radically overhauled, revolutionized, saved as result of working that simple program. And what the book is trying to say in the fix is, look, man, like you could anyone can derive the same benefits from this program whether they self identify as an addict or not. You know what I mean? It's like this is for everybody. It's out there for you. And I just wanted to democratize it. Like, hey, let's just get it out of church basements and get it in the hands of everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because what's happening in the basement of the church. More miracles are happening in the basement usually than upstairs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where the 12 step meetings are happening.

[A]

Hey, talk to me about this because I think there's probably some people thinking, and you mentioned everyone's an addict. I think there probably are some people thinking, well, I mean, I'm not an addict, you know, I'm not doing too much alcohol, I'm not doing too many drugs. But what about, you know, buying stuff every five minutes on Amazon and having it delivered to your door or returning it?

[B]

I know a guy who goes to Costco all the time, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he gets like 5,000 bucks worth of stuff for a party. Party and then he returns it two weeks later. I mean, and he's actually caught in a cycle of it. Like he's, you know, or the people we know are buyers, gamblers, debt, you know, people pleasing, codependency.

[A]

See, I was going to get into people pleasing and. Yeah, codependency. Sugar?

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

I mean there are, there are a lot of these things that I think that they're, they're not, they're not drugs, they're not alcohol, but they're, they're Addictions.

[B]

They have mood altering effect and negative consequences and you can't stop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On your own. Like you, you have tried, you know, you've tried diets, you've tried this, you've tried that. You keep sneaking down at 2:00 in the morning to have, you know, Ben and Jerry's because guess what, you're anxious. You, you have, you know, as great spiritual masters have said, you are experiencing that sort of sense of existential dis. Ease, discontent in quietude. You know that those feelings that are the baseline of the human condition. I mean, if you're reading the same Bible I'm reading. Right. Like, like that is just our baseline. Yeah, right. We are not. So there's a, a term I use in the book. It's the feeling of not at homeness that I think people carry with them right now. How you manage that.

[A]

Can you talk about that a little bit more? The feeling of not at homeness.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, well, from a biblical perspective, right. C.S. lewis, I'm seeing his books on your shelf. Right, okay. Well, Lewis talks about it so beautifully. Right there we have this internal sense that there is a far off country that we have not yet visited, but it lives within us. Do you know what I mean? And we're not there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so we just kind of carry that.

[A]

And there's a, and emotionally, I think the way that I would describe it, there's a longing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's an end. And our longings and our unattended sorrows that we carry, Right. They, they, they're just part of the human condition. And what, what we do with them and how we manage or deal with them. Right. With God's help is what for me determines what Bill Wilson calls emotional sobriety. Right. Not just physical sobriety. He talks about emotional sobriety. Like, how do you live as somebody in the world who can maintain emotional balance in the face of whatever it throws at you? Right. And that's what the steps are designed to do. Again, I keep referring back to them obviously, because that's what the whole premise of the book is. Right. But this is like a, you know, when you think about the 12 steps, maybe as a rule of life, like the Benedictines had a rule of life, monastic communities had rules of life. Well, that word rule, it actually in the Latin means trellis. So a trellis is a structure on which you grow things, right? Plants, whatever, tomatoes, roses, vines, whatever your thing is. But you need a structure to grow with. Right. Like, and so 12 steps are a kind of Trellis, if you will, on which we can grow a healthy spiritual life and address that sense of home, spiritual homelessness that we feel on a regular basis. That, you know, Lewis would talk about it maybe as. And so would Ronald Rolheiser, another great contemporary Christian thinker. They would describe it as, you are a finite creature with infinite desires. And that's a lot to contain in this moral body of ours. You know what I mean? Yeah. We have these, these drives and desires and they, and some are healthy and some govern our lives negatively from the shadows. And we just have to do the work, you know, of creating the natural environment in which we can experience spiritual transformation. And again, for me, in my life, I've organized it around these steps, Right. Living out these steps and these spiritual principles that are inside these steps to create the most content and satisfying life that I can have on this side of the divide.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, I, I've in counseling as you have a lot of different people, and of course me, it's more healthy oriented, but thousands of thousands of people and you know, sometimes people will see results really fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're the people. It's, it's funny, I, I can, and I'm curious if you've experienced something similar in your field. I can sometimes tell. I, I don't know if immediately it's the right word, but within sometimes minutes, if somebody is likely to have some challenges in getting better and overcoming their condition versus people are going to probably, I think, experience really great results based on this. Like, I would sit down on their first appointment and I would go over a diet diary with them and say, hey, write down what you're typically eating breakfast, lunch and dinner. And then I would say before the next consultation, where I would really go through maybe blood work, a more in depth plan is I would say something like, okay, hey, between now and then, let's at least make a few changes. Let's change your breakfast. Okay. Let's stop doing the, you know, this Pop Tarts. Exactly, the pop Tarts, whatever it might be, something like that. And let's start doing something like this superfood smoothie. Let's do some berries. Let's do some, you know, some, some bone broth or plant protein or collagen. Let's do something like this. And I would get one or two reactions. One was just very like, you're taking this away from me. I mean, it was almost this thing of like, you're taking away this thing that I love and you're saying, I can't have this thing. And the people that were able to just say, okay, I'll make that chain, like, you know, I'm going to go ahead and do this smoother, I'm going to do this. They would see good results. The people that were like hanging on for dear life and asking the question, but can I keep doing this? Are you going to take this from me? They had a harder time. They had a harder time with the breakthrough.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I can, I definitely have that experience with, with clients, coaching clients now because I don't, I don't have a therapy practice right now, but my coaching clients. Yeah, you, you are. It's fairly quick to see the, the, the resistance.

[A]

Yeah, resistance is a good word. Yeah.

[B]

And, and part of the time, sometimes it's because they're just not in enough pain.

[A]

Yeah, right. Pain and pleasure.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Those are, those are very motivating. It's interesting, you know, when you, when you read the Bible and you're reading the Old Testament, it's like fear God and love God. Right. It's those. It's sort of like fear is pain and, you know, love is more pleasurable. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, it goes way back.

[B]

And isn't it how our brains are kind of set up? Right. Like human beings are comfort seekers. They like pleasure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're averse to pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And distress again, part of the addiction loop. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We feel distress consciously or unconsciously, and we seek out ways to fix. Right.

[A]

Now let me ask this. So, so if, if you've got somebody who. And by the way, I just want to tell everybody, I'm super excited about this book, Ian Cron here, it's called the Fix. And this is really how to go through these steps to overcome these barriers in your life. It's not just addictions. It is addictions, but some of you don't think of them as addictions. So I also want to say you've been stuck in a place in your life and you're suffering again with a medical condition, with a bad relationship, with low self esteem, with guilt, with shame, any of those issues that are plaguing you. And it's a way to start, to advance and create a breakthrough in your life. And I think for a lot of people, you know, I think about this, I think a lot of people don't know, one, where to start. And two, some people might even know where to start, but then they don't know the second step after where to start. So walk me through a little bit about the 12 steps. Just a little bit more detail in terms of how you create this trellis and how you go from one rung to another to another.

[B]

Yeah, well said. Because they build on each other, right? There's the reason. There's kind of an inner genius to the way it's set up. Right. Step one, you can't do step two until you've done one.

[A]

But I bet a lot of people are trying to go to 12 from the first thing. And this is why they keep feeling, this is why the diet's not working or the relationship keeps going. You know, maybe it feels better for. It seems like it's better for a week or two, but then it just, you're back where you started.

[B]

So step one is we admitted we were powerless over. Now if you were an aa, you say alcohol. If you're an na, you'd say, you know, drugs. If you were an oa, as overeaters, you'd say food, what, whatever, whatever. The thing is, yeah, we admitted we were powerless over blank. That our lives had become unmanageable. So the first step out of the gate is. It feels humiliating, but you just have to reach a point in your life where you say, I'm out of ammo. Like I've, I've, I have tried everything to overcome this health problem or this way of, this pattern of living and yet I find myself caught in an uninterrupted circuit of self destructive behavior and I just can't seem to get myself out of it.

[A]

It.

[B]

Right. I've been to therapy, I've been to this, I've been to that. And I just. And part of it is you have to reach a place where you say, I give up. And here's the great paradox. When you give up, when you admit powerlessness, then another power comes in that's not yours.

[A]

It's like humility and pride that we hear about the Bible. I mean it's that like I said.

[B]

This is pure, just like unvarnished biblical gospel principles.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

Well, I'm powerless and my life is unmanageable. Now some people have a hard time with that because they're like, well, I still got a two cars and I live in a beautiful neighborhood and I, you know, my, I got a scratch golf game and I got this and you know, whatever the thing is, right. Well, unmanageability takes a lot of forms, right. It can be anxiety, it could be bad health, it could be emotional dysregulation. All the time. It could be whatever the thing is. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. But you just, you're not managing well. Right. Step two. Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. Sanity in the original world, meaning wholeness. Right. It can just restore me to wholeness. So just this acknowledgment and I love how baby step in kind the steps are. It's like, can you just be open to the idea that there's a power greater than you that can lift you out of the morass of your problem? Step three, turn my will in my life over to the care of God as I understand him. And that's this, this place where you, you, if you think about the first three steps, you could, you could boil it down to this. I can't. He can. I think I'll let him. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See, most people are caught in a loop of, in their spiritual lives and they don't. It's well intentioned. It's just in opposition to grace.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They, I think what they do is they think I'm just going to work really hard on myself and that's called reformation. I'm just going to work on me, you know, and become a. I'm going to try to become a really great Christian. Sometimes when people, I hear people say I'm trying to be a good Christian, I'm like, well then you don't understand the gospel.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You don't understand it.

[A]

Yeah. Like, can I tell you something? So that so inspired me. Just, just. Well, it's on the top of my head. Have you followed Russell Brand the past year or so?

[B]

A little bit. Not much.

[A]

I mean, it's been so amazing to see his transformation. I mean, he went from being, being this Hollywood icon, having a massive following to I think kind of hitting rock bottom emotionally, spiritually and just giving his life to Jesus. He was baptized, he's baptizing others now and just so outspoken about his faith. And it was like he had to hit rock bottom before he was willing to make this transformation. But anyways, it just made me think of like, you know, a lot of what you're sharing right now in terms of just, you know, he had to come to this place. You could see it in him. He went from being arrogant to like, his level of humility is just. That's the big if. I'm like, what's really different about him right now? It was like, it's his humility.

[B]

And you know where that all started for him, right. The 12 steps.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No, I didn't know in Fact, he has a book called Recovery, and it's the story of his journey to sobriety from drugs, alcohol, overeating, sugar. And it's actually a fairly decent book. Don't read it if you have any aversion to rough language.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's actually quite a good book. And his spiritual journey for, you know, well over a decade began in the 12 steps.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So he may have hit an emotional bottom, but he knew he had a trellis, you know what I mean? Like, that's. That was the entry point for him, is through the 12 steps.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that's just an example. That's why when Christians say to me, oh, I don't see Jesus enough in the 12 steps, I'm like, give it a minute. Like, sometimes people find their way there. It's just a natural progress. But you got to start somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's what's so powerful about, you know, Jordan Peterson reminds me of this a little bit today is, as you would say, he doesn't very frequently talk about Jesus. Example. I mean, you know, he'll call him the logos and use. He does talk about him, and it's actually becoming more and more. But I think he's teaching people patterns that sort of create this sort of guide to get there.

[B]

Yes. And that is the point of the steps, by the way. So here's the bottom line. Your addiction, my addiction, whatever it is, is not the problem. It's the symptom. It's. It's the solution to the problem that we have. Right. And it makes sense. Right. Like, we shouldn't be down on ourselves because we've become a problem drinker or a problem. You know, I mean, it's like. No, that's what humans do. Right? Like, don't be too hard on yourself. It's like you went looking for a solution. And guess what? In the beginning, it worked. It really helped. Then the problem is that the solution becomes a bigger problem than the problem it was trying to solve. Yeah, right. And that's just the nature of the human condition.

[A]

For example, like, I've met people who were overweight.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so they started running or doing something like that. And then they ran and they ran and they ran until finally their joints were worn out. And then they're like. But then. But then. Now they don't know what to do. They're in so much pain because they've overrun. And then it's like, well, now. Now what?

[B]

So they start eating again.

[A]

Sorry. That's right. And something like that they're going from.

[B]

One solution, one external solution to the internal problem to the next, right. It's like, well, I'm going to go back to the last one because that one worked, right? And so once you realize, okay, this isn't the problem, this is my solution, right now I have to remove the solution. And once I do, the problem is going to make itself apparent again. And so in a way, your addiction is an invitation from God to a greater new, new level of intimacy with him that you didn't know existed yet.

[A]

I mean, that's a great way to think about it. If you've been doing everything right, eating clean, exercising, but somehow you're still not feeling your best, your energy is dragging, your memory is slipping, and it's frustrating because you know there's more to your potential. Well, what if the issue isn't just in your routine, but it's deep down inside your cells, you know your environment, investing in the best supplements, working out regularly and sticking to a clean diet. But if your cells are stuck in what's called cell danger response, all the hard work might not be paying off as it should. Think of your cells like a house under renovation. You can bring in the highest quality materials like the best supplements and clean foods. But if the workers inside the house or are on lockdown because of a storm, nothing gets done. The materials just pile up unused. That's what happens when your cells are in cdr. They can't fully use the good stuff you're giving them. Getting out of cdr. The cell danger response is the key to unlocking your body's full potential. When your cells are no longer in protective mode, they can finally use the nutrients, hormones and energy your working so hard to provide. That's when everything starts to click. Your energy improves, your workouts become more efficient and you start to feel like yourself again. Go to BeyondBloodwork.com to learn how to break free from cell danger response and make the effort pay off. Because most people are living with, they have an addiction and they're overwhelmed with shame and guilt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they're trying to hide it from everybody.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Well, you think about the maybe a project and I talk about this in the book, right? You have a sort of a progression pain, right. Then you find a. An anesthetizing or numbing person, behavior or substance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Oh, then step three, I'm a genius. It works, right? And then step four is oh, now it owns me. Right. And then step five is shame and pain about the solution, which then takes Me back to step one. Pain. And gets me back to using again, doing it again, having temporary relief, and then. But of course, as you know, it's escalating. So now I got to do more of it than the last.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah. I got to eat three. I got to eat three Snickers bars instead of two. Right. And then more shame and pain. Right. Takes me back to step one, and here we are. We're caught in the loop.

[A]

Wow. You know, we talked about resistance earlier. How do you overcome resistance? So we've talked about those people that sometimes they feel. It feels like it's maybe hard or challenging to help them change. How do you overcome the resistance or help them overcome the resistance themselves?

[B]

I think there's a couple of ways, but one certainly is when someone says to me, well, I'm not sure if I'm an alcoholic. I go, all right, we'll just keep going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I just don't argue with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, keep going and come back when. When you realize it's not working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's a little dangerous because sometimes people are really on the edge, you know, health wise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the bottom line is I can overcome somebody's resistance.

[A]

Can I tell you when my. The hardest thing I've ever dealt with? One of the hardest things, emotionally, was when I was about to graduate and open up my own functional medicine clinic. Well, the year before that, I started seeing patients for the first time. I started leading this large Bible study, and I started. For really, the first time in my life, I feel like getting in really significant places of leadership or helping people direct their lives. And I felt this sense of, like, this unbelievable way. And I went in to see my pastor, and I had this amazing pastor in Florida, and I went in there and I sat down with him, across from him, and he didn't say anything. He just sat there. And finally I said, larry, I feel like I just want to cry. And I have the way, and I can't. But I can't even do that. I'm like, I just feel so much weight. And the thing that I realized was I felt like I had to change everybody. Like, I felt like when the patient wasn't seeing the results because they wouldn't change their diet or wouldn't do the thing. Like, that was completely on me and my responsibility. And it almost like it broke me. Like I had to get to this place of, like, giving that to God and not trying to carry that thing myself. But that was a real big point, turning point in my Life where I realized I just. That was a, that was a tough thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think a lot of people are carrying this sort of maybe weight. Weight with that sort of thing.

[B]

Absolutely. And in the clinical setting, we might say that that is a kind of codependency. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I have to change people. I. And then we can go to more and more desperate ends to try and make that happen. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And by the way, the more we try to change people, the more they resist. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the more our self esteem gets tethered to their changing. Right. I'm not a good person unless I can get you to stop doing this or start doing that. Right. It's like, yeah, I see this with parents and children all the time. You know what I mean? It's like you got a 19 year old kid, they're not living the life that you think they should be living. And you are now absolutely obsessed. You can't stop worrying, you're anxious. It's like, okay, well, you know, and the kid is becoming more and more estranged from you because you are, you are, you know, coming up with more and more subtle or not so subtle ways of controlling them. Right.

[A]

Well, I mean, first off, this is hitting a chord with some people because I can just see, I mean, I'm thinking about my own mom okay with this too, but it's just there are so many moms out there that just want to help their kids so much or so many parents. So this is, this, this is a good one because this, this is prevalent.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And what has to happen is, well, let's look back to the steps. You have to go to a place to go. You know what? I admit that I am powerless over Billy. And my continued obsessive addictive ways of relating to him is making my life unmanageable. Now I believe step two, I've come to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. Right. To wholeness, to right. Thinking about this. Step three, I'm going to turn my will and my life and Billy over to the care of God as I understand him. Right. And that's, you know, because at a certain point, you know, we, we have some influence, but we have no control.

[A]

I mean, do you know how many patients I've seen where the reason why they have the gut issues or the hormonal issues was because the mom was worrying about the kids in that exact cycle? That goes back to what I was saying earlier. I think the majority of health conditions, the single greatest factor making people sick Today is addiction.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's this emotional thing. I mean, it's the single biggest factor.

[B]

Yeah. And so when, then we get to step four. Right. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. So now you have to start to do the hard work of going, you know, the reason I'm doing with this with Billy is, is because my whole self esteem is trapped in his being the success as I define it, that I want him to be.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I'm not letting him make the decisions that a 19 or 20 year old is supposed to make. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like I have to let go, you know, like at this point, I am no longer a cop, I am no longer a coach with this kid. I'm a consultant. I gotta wait for the client to come to me. You know what I mean? When your kids are little, you're a cop, right. You yell at them, you grab your hands, you take them out of the street, get to be teenagers. You're a coach at this point. Right. Because your level of control is going down pretty dramatically by the time you get to 19, 20, 21 and on, you're a consultant. Sorry. And if you try to be a cop when you're supposed to be a consultant, bad things happen. And if you try to be a consultant when you're supposed to be a cop, bad things happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So it's again, it's like you have to do these inventories. That's one of the things that the program does is it says, all right, we're going to have to take a look inside with a kind, self compassionate, dispassionate view.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In other words, the. To do an inventory is like when you go to the grocery store. If you're, if you own a grocery store. It's like, I just got to go through the tomatoes and figure out which ones are bad, I can't sell anymore and which ones are good, I'm going to leave on the shelf.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we just go inside with kindness and look around and we own what's ours, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's, you know, part of the journey. As I said, these steps are simple, they're not easy, they require some effort on your part. But as you know from scripture, from the stoics, from others. Right. Like self examination, like a life without self examination is not heading in the right direction.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we live in a society today that's very future driven. I think most people spend a lot more time on goal setting than they do self awareness and Self examination. I think goals are vision or where you want to go. Self examination, awareness are. You need to know where you're at now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, where are you now?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And a lot of people, they don't want to know. They want to think maybe they're somewhere else than they actually are.

[B]

Yeah. And people who resist it are usually people who are struggling with shame.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they just. And I get it. Like, I get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But I just always try to encourage people I work with to say, look, you know, this is what humans do. Like, you're not going to come up with anything new and creative. Like, like people say the old time man, I'm the worst of all sinners. And I'm like, don't flatter yourself. You know what I mean? Like you, like you don't even flatter yourself. Like, I've met people far worse than you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Number one. Number two, you haven't come up with anything really all that. You have not even remotely come up with some new character defect that hasn't ever been out there, like wildly present in the population forever. Right. We're just going to look at your particular set of issues and we're just going to own it. Right. Without shame. Now, there may be some grief and some sadness in there. That's normal too. Right. But we just have to go in and shine the light of our attention on those things that are obstacles to our loving God, ourselves and others. And we're just going to name them and then we're going to admit them.

[A]

That's so good. You know, I think a lot of people today, and if we're talking about maybe the secular world is they, they try and they try and skip the first three steps and say, well, I need to find myself or do something within myself or change myself. Yes. What tends to happen to people if they just decide I want to just try and change myself, but kind of skip those first three steps of getting. Right. Connection.

[B]

So that's reformation. We were talking about that earlier.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Thought so. Thank you for circling back to it. Right. So reformation is I'm going to work on myself and change these things. And my thing is. Okay, well, good luck.

[A]

It's stoicism. I mean, that's in part. I mean, maybe not exactly, but I think that's.

[B]

Yeah. And I actually appreciate pieces of stoicism.

[A]

Oh, me too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the problem is, is that, well, as my sponsor once said to me, and we are well past any conversation about you changing you, you know what I mean? Like you just. I love this guy. So great, right? And, and I'm like, okay. He said, so I use an illustration in the book. My son went, this is a little scatological, but we'll run with it, right? So he's about maybe a year and a half, two years old. He's in the bathtub. I realized I don't have a towel. I run to the line closet to get it. In the brief moment that that happened and you know, you've got kids, you know this happens, right? He takes an epic poo in the tub, right? Epic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean like I'm, I like Exxon Valdez level, right? And in the little brief time I'm not in the room, he realizes he has created a natural disaster as well. And he has tried to pick this stuff up and then he realizes it's on his hands and now he's wiping it on his hair and then it's wiped on the walls, right? All over the place, right. He has made more of a mess trying to clean himself up. Right. Reformation. He's just trying to clean himself up. And guess what? Didn't work, right. It's actually made more of a mess than when he started.

[A]

What a great picture. I mean, I got 11 month old and a 4 year old right now. I mean, you know, right. The, the place we're living, right.

[B]

So what did he need? He needed a power greater than himself, external to him, namely me.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

To come in and go, it's okay, dude, I got this. Just relax, let go. Like stop. And then I come in and I can clean them off and I can shower them off and all is well. Wow. So that is a really, a great biblical example of how transformation works. Transformation is when you give God consent to do for you what you have never been able to do for yourself.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so we move from that Reformation mindset to a transformation mindset, which is so counterintuitive because everything in us, the ego says, I got this, I can do this. And God says, okay, well really there's. You're making this harder than it needs to be. Give me consent to do this for you. And that's again the genius of the steps, right? That, that the steps are not a self help program. Because if your help could have, if yourself could have helped, you wouldn't have done that by now. Like, you know what I mean? Like, self help is kind of a ridiculous.

[A]

It's, it's ridiculous. I mean, you know, even the whole, the whole genre right now, it's almost making some of this worse? Yeah, I mean. I mean, you know, it's. Yeah, because you're just distracting yourself with. With something that's not allowing you to get to the root of the whole thing.

[B]

Yes. And in fact, I bet there's a bunch of listeners right now. The resistance has gone way up. Right. Because he's like, well, you staying to stop trying? And I'm like, no. I will say I would strongly encourage you to stop trying to earn love from God. Right. Or to earn God's intervention through your good efforts. But actually, your good efforts are maybe standing in the way of allowing God to do for you what it is that you most deeply desire.

[A]

I think there are a good amount of people, you know, I've really come to appreciate. I grew up and still, you know, Protestant, and it's so fun. I got to so many different denominations growing up. We went to Baptist when I was in elementary school, then I went to Methodist, and then I went to denominational, and then I went to Presbyterian, and then I was at a charismatic church, and then I was at. It was like a lot of different churches that I've experienced. And then half my family was Catholic growing up, got a lot of orthodox friends. All that being said, I've come to really appreciate, I think, a lot of the different, you know, virtues and qualities between, you know, both Catholicism and Protestantism. And I think that it's easy to get in the. The ditch in both of them. That. The thing I wanted to mention here is, is I think sometimes people, when they hear, okay, you need to stop working or trying, because that's not necessarily what you're saying. It's. It's. They actually do that, you know, so it's like you've got like, maybe like some Catholics that are, like, trying and working too much, and then some Christians hear what you said, but then they're like. They almost don't do anything and they don't work as hard. How do you find that balance for people? Or how do you. Can you help create the right perspective for people of understanding? No, you should work harderly as for the Lord, not for men. You should run to win the race. There's this element of laying it all on the table, going hard after things, but. But you're doing it in a completely different way with a different sort of fuel and motivation that, that, that, that. That maybe you had before.

[B]

As passive as it sounds, I think there's so much power in surrender in. In. In embracing my power, my spiritual powerlessness. Right. Because then it makes room for a Different power to enter that can. As I use that old mantra, who can will do for me what I can't do for myself. I think that's grace. Right.

[A]

You know, I used to have an old running coach when I was in track, and he would tell us to run relaxed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it was like if you would try and run too hard and too stiff and kind of do it all, versus, you know, letting your own body sort of propel you forward, it was a very different way of running.

[B]

Yeah. And there's a term antinomy, Right. Which is where you have two seemingly opposite ideas that would seem to negate one another, but both are true at the same time. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, when you're talking about faith, if there's no if you can't get comfortable with paradox, you're going to have a real hard time.

[A]

Free will, predestination. There's a lot of these. There's a lot of these.

[B]

Right. Virgin births. I mean, come on. I mean, what are we doing here? You know, three in one, one in three. There's a lot of weird stuff going on here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so if you can't hold these things, things in tension, you're going to run into problems. Now, for me personally, there are spiritual practices that I regularly engage. For example, centering prayer. For me, centering prayer has, like, been one of the most helpful spiritual practices where I sit 20, 25 minutes a morning in silence, and I simply present myself to God in the silence, and I say to him, look, listen, there's a mess inside here, right? Like, I can't fix this. So I'm going to sit here and I'm going to meditate on a word, and I'm just going to focus my attention on it, and I'm going to give you permission to do the work in me that I can't do for myself. And I have seen the most remarkable results as a result. Right. Like, so here's how you know, you're growing spiritually. You're starting to see virtues arise in your character that even surprise you on a regular.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Without any effort, it's just like there's something flowing in you and you're like, holy smokes, what's going on? It's like, well, that's called grace.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're changing from the inside out. You're no longer taping fruit to trees, which is what you've been doing before. Right now it's just flowing naturally up through the root system, and you're bearing fruit that you didn't Even know you could do. And. And again, I love the steps because the steps, like Wilson had a very biblical worldview. Right. Whether he knew it or not. But. But of course, you know, maybe your listeners don't know this, but the, the 12 steps actually derived from a Christian movement called the Oxford.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't know. I. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't think most people realize that.

[B]

Yeah. But yeah, come straight out of it, you know, and he made it available to people of all spiritual orientations because he was trying to save people's lives. Right. He didn't want to make it just for Christians to become sober people. Right. He wanted everyone. So in a good way, I think what he did is he said, okay, I'm going to make this available to everybody. Right.

[A]

You know, one thing I like to think about, and I'd encourage everybody to do this, I think back at the biggest turning points in my life and who I. And who I've become and who I am. And one of my biggest turning points by far it might be my biggest. It's up there is when I was in college, I grew up a Christian and then went off for a couple of years in college and sort of, you know, drank and partied and felt really empty. And then I remember just praying and just said, God, I feel. So I surrendered. That's what I'll say. I surrendered. And I remember going down this path of just sort of following where God was leading me. And one of the things that led me to. Was to do this group is that was doing Neil Anderson, the Bondage Breaker. Ever heard that? Anyways, it was a book about just sort of sharing the things that I was doing, just, you know, admitting the things I'm doing wrong, that I'm surrendering it to God and moving forward. And I remember I had people come up to me for the next few months after while I was going through this process, like multiple people saying, you're different. There's something different about you. And to me, at first I didn't like it. But then over time, but I think then I started to realize because it was like I started my friend group, I didn't fit anymore with the current group that I was the people I was running around like I just wasn't a fit. And so I didn't find a completely new friend group. And. But I do feel like I. But then over time, I realized that was the greatest compliment I could ever, ever receive.

[B]

Yeah. And what you're really describing is what happens in like 12 step meetings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's so interesting is every, every depiction of a 12 step meeting you've ever seen on television is an utter lie. I can just tell you right now, like every time I see one I'm like, wait a minute, that is not like any meeting I've ever been to. Right. They're glum, they're like people sitting around talking about problems. It's like when you go to meetings, there's what always surprises newcomers is the amount of laughter.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, just lots of laughter.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Right? And laughter about things most people won't laugh about. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, of course I did that, you know what I mean? And you just remember and there's kind of like laugh. The other, the other piece of it that is so interesting is we focus on the solution, not the problem. The point. And the point of the 12 steps, you know, is not to get you to stop drinking. Right? The 12 step says having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps.

[A]

Right?

[B]

The point, the whole point of the 12 steps is to facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that it expels your need for your self prescribed treatment plans. Unnecessary. Your sugar fix, your maker's mark fix, your cigarette fix, your workaholism fix your people pleasing fix, whatever your fix is. You would have a, a spiritual awakening of sufficient force. That's like, I don't even need that anymore. That's the whole thing of the 12 steps. Now. I don't think it happens just once, by the way. Yeah, I think it happens serially. We have spiritual awakenings, we have moments of insight where we go, ah, a deeper surrender. I'm called to a deeper surrender. And that deeper surrender is now going to produce a whole new crop of, you know, fruit and good things in my life that came as a result of my giving up and handing it over.

[A]

You know, first off, I love this conversation because I am always very obsessive about let's get the root of the problem. Like, let's not waste our time. Let's actually do something that's transformational and let's not waste our time. And I am curious about some of these other. So we spent a lot of times on, I think the most important steps, I mean, reconnecting with God a little bit. We talked about getting right with ourselves. By the way, I do want to mention for everybody, this is such an amazing book, if you are. And by the way, I'm going to go through the book here. I got to get some of the highlights here, but I'm going to go through myself. And actually, I have a men's group. We're going to go through this book together. I'm really excited about it, but I want to encourage everybody to get the book read through the book. We're all addicts. We all have something, a barrier that's in our way. And even if you have spent a lot of time, I know we have a lot of people that are Christians and Jews on this podcast, a lot of people that are religious, but I want to encourage you to go through this because this is something that even though you might have got a glimpse of this in church, there's such power in going through the actual full program yourself. And here's the thing, it's going to help you. And then you can use some of this frame of mind to. I love the trellis example here, Ian, because when you know the pattern of how to overcome one thing and you do it once, now you know how to do it for these other obstacles in your life, and you can help other people as well. So there's so much power there. Is there any. Do you get into habits here or anything like that? I mean, I think that one of the things that I think about when in a book I recently wrote, I talk a lot about overcoming limiting beliefs. And one of the things sometimes, once you get to the end, is how do I reinforce this and make it part of who I am? Because you said sometimes there's one awakening, but how do you sort of create these multiple awakenings or continue to go all the way up the trellis and make this part of who you are?

[B]

So my sponsor, he's a very funny, funny guy, man, and he's incredibly wise. And once he said to me, says, you know, Ian, once you've done these steps long enough, the numbers fall away. And now you're just reflexively pulling, drawing wisdom from them as you move throughout the day. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as you said, you set up a new pattern, right. A new set of habits, a new way of looking at the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like changing out one pair of glasses for another. And you're like, oh, I didn't have the right prescription before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything was blurry. Now things are pretty clear, you know? And so I. I have seen people, Josh. This is the most amazing thing. I was a pastor for years, right. And I yearned for transformation for my people and for myself. Right. And the best transformation was going on in the basement, like the people who didn't even attend church upstairs. Right. I have seen Levels like, I have met people who. This is not an exaggeration and I see it regularly where people were living in the back of their cars, right. I mean, really at their bottom, right. And two years later, married, kids, job, life focused on character, focused on virtues, focused on being of service to other people. That's what the steps are about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're not about how do I give this up and like live with the hole in my soul. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what it's about. Like, yes, we are going to want to expel these habits in our lives that are not serving us. Right. These solutions to this internal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it goes well beyond that. The 12 steps are a way of life that ultimately equip you to become a useful, purposeful person who is germinating the world with the love of God. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, I was telling, I was telling a friend yesterday about the tenth step, right? The tenth step is continue to take personal inventory. And when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. And now let's go ahead a moment. I'm at a coffee shop down on Music Row that I love to go to. I'm in a bad mood. I go in the line is like out the door. Never is like that. There's a brand new barista and guess what, the barista is like talking to everybody at length about their lives. This is why the line is out the door, right? And, and because I'm a little efficiency minded, I'm a little bit like, okay, this is not working, you know, And I'm getting more and more annoyed. I get up to the front of the line and she says, oh, hi hon. And I don't like it when 25 year olds call me hun, by the way. And so I'm like, okay. And she's like, what can I get you? I said like a cortado, you know, kind of icily. And she goes, and how would you like it? And I went, today I would like it today. I was not at my best, right? I was not at my best. And then she hands me the cortado and she goes, here's your drink, jackass. Right? And this was not a good moment, right? And I, I left furious. And I called my sponsor and he said, do you, do you think it's time to do a 10 step? Meaning don't you think you ought to go back there and promptly admit that you were wrong and ask her forgiveness and see if you can make it up to her somehow? So I'm Like, I hate this. I hate these steps. I hate these dang steps. Now my ego is going, I don't want to do that. But I turn my car around, I go back, the line is pretty much dissipated. And I go up to this woman, whose name is Felicity, by the way, and I said, you know, I was in here earlier, and I really. I acted like a jerk, and I just want to ask your forgiveness and ask if there's some. Some way I can make that up to you. And she just started to cry, and she came out from behind the counter, she gave me a big hug, and she said, I had a fight with my boyfriend, and I didn't respond very well. And I've been thinking about you. And then I, you know, next thing I know, we're having a moment, like, we're doing therapy in the coffee shop, right? And I end up with a free cortado with extra cinnamon and a new best friend named Felicity.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's a. You know, to me, when I do the steps, it's like, oh, that's how we're supposed to be in the world. That's just the gospel. That's just an example of the gospel at work, right?

[A]

You know, I think everybody can really relate to this, that we all have family members, we all have people we encounter at work that are difficult. And it is so easy to, you know, when you get punched, punch back. And, you know, and I think about in my life, when I'm at my best, it's when I'm the most aware of myself, of others. I'm living in that spiritual state, the surrendered state. And when I have that person say something to me or do something that I feel like isn't right, I can instead not think about how I'm a victim or how it's offending me. Instead, I can think about, how's that person doing? I wonder what's going on. How can I. Oh, this is straight.

[B]

Out of the steps you're talking about. Like, it's just common, perennial wisdom, right? So, like, I. I think about in the Big Book of aa, which is kind of the text that we use and we reference a lot, and it says, love and tolerance is our code, right? So when I get up in the morning, I'm encouraged to do what's called the third step prayer. It's the first thing I think of before I get out of bed. It's the first prayer I say. And it's like, now, reflexive, right? I'm not patting myself on the back. I've just Done it so much. First thing that it's. The first thing I think of. It goes like this. God, I offer myself to thee, to build with me and to do with me as thou wilt. Listen to this next line. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do thy will. That's a huge idea. Because what you're saying is, like, when someone asks me, how do you know you're doing well spiritually? I go, when I'm doing well spiritually, it's impossible to offend me.

[A]

That's. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because my ego isn't at risk here. Right. My ego has been right sized. Right. You can say, you know, it's like, okay, well, as you said, my mind doesn't go to. Well, how don't you know who I think I am? You know, it's like it goes to. My mind goes to. Ah, so this is a sick person. I'm a sick person. How would I want to be treated if, you know, if. If I were a sick person? I need to extend love and grace and mercy and kindness to this person in the hope that their heart will warm and gentle and become, you know, that this will be a moment where I get to disseminate the gospel in, like, concrete fashion.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And that's the mindset shift that the 12 steps encourages.

[A]

You know, when I think about people that are at the top of their fields, the top 1% of the 1% of the 1%, they're the people that are the most. I think it's. They're the most awareness. And this could extend almost anything. I mean, I think about, like, finances. Like, if you have Warren Buffett and he's going to buy something and he's got, like. He is the most aware person in the room of what's going on financially here and here and here. And with this person with his own, I'm like, there's a high level of awareness. When I run into and spend time with, you know, a lot of pastors and priests and rabbis, monks. There tends to be this thing where it's harder to rattle them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's harder to offend them. And I think the thing is they've learned these principles via the Bible, via the 12 steps. Psychologists sometimes fall in that category too, where they've learned this framework, they have the trail, they understand these patterns, and they're living in this higher state. And I just want to encourage everybody, if you're a person that wants to live in that higher state, you want to live in that higher state of awareness, you want to grow spiritually and you want to break through these things that are holding you back from becoming the person God wants you to be. This is really an amazing roadmap to be able to do that. And so I know Ian here has this book. It's nationwide. The book's called the Fix. Okay, so it's called the Fix. You can buy it on Amazon.com, it's in bookstores nationwide. Ian has been on a lot of podcasts and he's been on a lot of different shows talking about this because it's really, it's truly transformational. As we talked about it transformed Russell Brand's life. I remember I watched this video recently with Jim Carrey. You could see very similar thing, you know, these sort of principles transforming his life. There are people who have literally become different people overnight. Better people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because of these principles and these steps. So, Ian, I'm so encouraged by this. It's been an amazing conversation. I'm really excited for people to go through this book. I'm excited to do this with my men's group as well, because I know that we're going to experience even a greater depth of understanding as we go through, through it. So thanks so much. Any, any last words of wisdom or thoughts for everybody in terms of just, you know, you know, why you wrote the book and, and what you hope they can walk away with.

[B]

So I wrote the book because the 12 steps completely revolutionized my life, you know, and you know, for me, like, my. My life mission is to present people with or introduce them to ideas and experiences that will deepen and improve their lives. That's, that's my mission in life. So whether it's the Enneagram or whatever, and the 12 steps have brought me to a place of. You were referring to emotional balance, and there's a great word for that, equanimity. Right. This ability to kind of move through the world. Not being thrown off the beam all the time, you know, not acting like somebody trapped in a phone booth with a murder hornet. That's what most people are like, man, aren't they? I mean, they're just like in reactivity all the time.

[A]

Time, Right.

[B]

But to learn just how to be in the world as a grounded, centered, self aware person and most importantly, a God centered person. Yeah, right. And I'm not going to dictate to you what that God is. Right. That's an evolving thing for, for people. Right. But all I'm going to say is, is that when you move from being an egocentric person to a theocentric person, everything changes. You know, everybody's in the right lane.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you know what the steps do, by the way? They're like that. That thing in your car where you start to drift out of the lane and it just gently bumps you back.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. That, for me, is what the steps have been. Right. Like, when I start to leave my lane, it's like bumps me back and says, you can keep going. Okay, go ahead. But really, if you just follow the directions, you get to stay in your lane, avoid a lot of accidents.

[A]

Wow, that's so good. Well, I just want to say thanks to Ian Krohn here for coming on and sharing all of his wisdom. This has been so powerful. We didn't even get into the Enneagram. I'm going to have you on again, Ian, so we can talk about more of that and just continue this conversation in the future. But just so, so grateful that you came on. I want to encourage everybody get the book. It's called the Fix by here by Ian Cron and it's on Amazon bookstores nationwide. And want to say just thanks to all of you who tuned in here. You know, this show is all about how you can grow. It's here to help you grow in body, in mind, in spirit, and take your health and your life to the next level. I want to say so many of you are on this mission with me and with people like us like Ian here, and we want to help transform the world. We want to help transform people's lives. And so I want to say thank you for sharing this video and podcast. I want to say thank you for subscribing. And I'm so excited to continue to connect with you and. And grow with you. And also, hey, if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment. We would love to hear from you. What is your biggest takeaway? Do you have any addictions? Have you ever done the 12 step program? We'd love to hear from you. What is your single biggest takeaway from the wisdom that Ian shared with us today? Hey, I can't wait to see you on next episode. Have a great week.