John Eldredge (3:25)

Oh, gosh, because it gives us a sense of security. We. We've literally been, like, discipled into the idea of get to the bottom, get to the lit. What's new? You know, what are people saying? What's the latest research? And we have this deep conviction now that if we're not in the know, you know, we're. We're missing out. And so you got to check it, got to check it, got to check it. It's become a place of security. I think for many people, it's also their place of connection. To be fair, you know, this is the way that they check in on their parents, check in on their friends, you know, watch a few reels, you know, scroll through Instagram, you know, so it feels like connection. It feels like community. Right? There's reasons that we go to it. I feel like I'm having an affair with my phone. Like, I. I literally have to, like, break the relationship.

Josh (4:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so true. You know, one of the things I was. I'm writing a book now, and one of the things I'm getting into in the book is around things that are artificial. You know, today we have all these artificial inputs, and so everything from artificial light to artificial food dyes to food that's not real. I mean, there's a lot of things that are, you know, and even something Like, I know I'm probably. You've discussed and talked about with your line of work is pornography. Like a lot of these things, they're not. They're not real. And so we have so many things in our life, or like, we just talked about a lot of these relationships. People might say, well, I've got a thousand friends on Facebook. Is that a real relationship? So it seems like a lot of people are substituting the real thing with something that's artificial. And I think that's leading to people feeling less, you know, less significant, less, you know, like they're living less of a meaningful life.

John Eldredge (5:12)

Yeah, yeah, totally. Not to mention your health, okay? Because Americans are infamous for getting sick when we go overseas. Because we have lived in such a sterilized environment, folks, you can actually make your environment too artificial, too sterile. And all the data's in. You're going to write about this. You've talked about it. The Probiotics episode. You did it. Children need to play in the dirt to develop healthy immune systems, right? And so if you're not out there digging your hands in the dirt, and it used to be, well, you helped on the farm or you worked in the garden, or, you know, just you and your pals were out, you know, playing, you know, sandlot softball or something like that. But we have pulled kids completely out of nature and now we're paying the consequences. A number of the things being compromised immune systems and all these autoimmune disorders, we literally like over parented in the sense of tried to make it too clean and kids need to get dirty and so do adults.

Josh (6:24)

Yeah, it's so true. You know, one thing I was going to tell you, and this is something I love about your teaching, is that, you know, we're all being discipled by something. You know, and especially as kids, they're so sensitive. I'll tell you that there are shows that I don't know that I would consider a bad show. I'll give you an example of this. Like, our daughter a few times has watched the show Peppa Pig, okay? And I started noticing she just started doing what these characters were doing. And it wasn't the worst. It was nothing like terribly immoral, but it was just a level of disrespect to their parents. And so I'm like, my daughter watching the show on TV is in a way being discipled by this cartoon character in her life. And so I think that there's a lot of, you know, another thing I hear a lot of times, John, people come up to me. And they'll say, I want a mentor. And I think people realize that they want someone in their life to mentor them. But I think today people are being mentored or discipled and they don't even know it. And by probably something that they, if they really thought about it, wouldn't want to be discipled by. And I know that's something you actually cover in your book. I'd love for you to share more about it.

John Eldredge (7:29)

This is going to blow people's minds. We are all, every last one of us, disciples of the Internet. I don't mean primarily who you listen to, what you look up, the shows you follow, the YouTube channels you watch, the podcasts you listen to. No, no, no. I mean the process. Okay? Everybody does this all day long. Hey, what's the proper temperature to bake a potato? Hey, what's the latest thing on vitamin B12? Are there neurotoxic levels? Got to figure out. I've got a lower back problem. What's the. We go look it up. We do this all day long. And what we don't realize is that after a couple decades of this, it has baked into us a way of operating in the world where, for one thing, there is. We are so impatient because you get. You Google something, you get 3 million results in less than a second. It's taught the soul impatience. It's also taught us a very kind of suspicious, kind of critical way of. Yeah, but somebody said something different yesterday. So what's the truth now? Hey, what's the latest research on that? Well, actually, I heard, you know, Dr. Josh said that that's not true. And this constant contradiction of fact has made us all like. It's like a gambling addiction, Josh. Like we are trying to get to the bottom of the truth. What's the latest thing? But it gets overturned tomorrow or next week, right? And so we're suspicious and we're cynical and we're anxious to get to the bottom of things. And I would just tell you, you know, your. Your spiritual forebears of ages past would have been horrified at this way of living and the effect that it's having on anxiety, depression, and really just the care of the soul.

Josh (9:25)

John, I bet there are very few people that realize that this is even being done to them. And I'm talking about very few people. I mean, it's definitely less than 10%. I mean, it's a very, very minute number. And I want to share something. I have a virtual clinic that I run, and I see patients through and with many Patients, we just see these, you know, incredible results and healings in their body. But when I run into a tough case where they're not seeing results as quickly as we should, there's one thing I've pinpointed of being the biggest reason why somebody won't heal. And it's not poor genetics or it's not that something was stacked against them in some way. It tends to be that they're obsessing about their condition too much and thinking about it too much. I mean, it's the single biggest thing, especially with issues like fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue or a number of issues. And this is something. This is. Goes back to more Eastern medicine and Chinese medicine. But they believed that if you're obsessing and thinking about something, it actually hurts your digestive system. It's very hard. So think about if somebody worries a lot, they'll say, oh, my stomach feels like it's tied in knots. It actually makes you physically ill. What you're talking about.

John Eldredge (10:34)

Yes. Yes. Okay. So one of the things we released and it was, this was such a beautiful thing that I think God was behind it. Right before the pandemic rolled through in 2020, we released an app. It's a very simple app. It's called the one minute pause. Because we were realizing people do not even know how to stop during the day and let it all go. Okay. We call it benevolent detachment. You just let it all go. The email you regret sending, the phone call, you're late on returning, you gotta get to carpool. You. You let it go. And teaching people, see, these are the old saints. This is contemplative prayer. But we don't call it that. We just say, learn to pause a couple times a day. Now, here's the fascinating thing. This will be very encouraging to you. So it's the one minute part. We're literally teaching people to get still for 60 seconds. And the letters start pouring in the input. People are like, you saved my life. I was going to literally take my life. You guys have changed me. Happy. Parents are using it with kids. Teachers are using it in classrooms. My team tells me, john, we need a five minute pause and we need a ten minute pause. And I said, guys, I cannot convince people to pause for 60 seconds. There is no way people are going to use a 10 minute pause. It has become the second highest used pause on the app because as people enjoy the opposite of what we were describing, I'm no longer obsessing about my condition. I'm no longer right. I'M just learning to let it go a couple times a day. You can help your soul do this. As people get into that, they're like, oh, give me more of that. Like, that makes me feel really good. And so now they're using, like, we have a 3 and a 5 and a 10. We've got these other programs on there. But isn't that a wonderful, hopeful thing? People want this kind of mentoring. Show me how to let it go. Show me how to detach.

Josh (12:42)

Yeah, well, you know, I think that people do realize there's something wrong. I think people are yearning for more meaning, more significance, more happiness. You know, there's a study, this is out of the National Institutes of Health, and they found that if you're spending one hour, just one hour of screen time decreases happiness and increases anxiety. This is both in adults and children. And so just the more time we spend on devices, the less happy we are. And I think if people were fully aware of this, that maybe things would change. I don't think that most people are aware of that, or it's just such an addiction that it's almost like you just immediately just get sucked. And it's part of everyone's life now, so you just get sucked back in so easily. But I love the one minute pause idea. So when somebody pauses for a minute, it's just stillness. It's not thinking. I bet once somebody does one minute, that can lead to the two minutes and the five and the 10.

John Eldredge (13:37)

Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. And. And we, we encourage people, get outside. Nature heals. Nature heal. Heals the body, it heals the soul. And, you know, so, like, what happens with the pause is all your cortisol starts going down, right. And you feel peaceful. Well, people like that. I want to feel peaceful.

Josh (14:00)

Yeah.

John Eldredge (14:01)

Right. Okay. Same thing with walking outside. 20 minute walk outside does the exact same thing for you, is it brings down all the adrenaline and cortisol and stuff and all the other wonderful things it does, like sunshine and vitamin D and that sort of thing. But here's how crazy it is, Josh. So my daily walking the dogs, I got two golden retrievers. And this is literally part of my spiritual practice, is walk the dogs. Okay. Because I don't take my phone.

Josh (14:32)

Yeah.

John Eldredge (14:32)

All right. It's a half an hour walk. I am now trying to figure out how to make it shorter, because this is what I mean about being a disciple of the Internet. It's literally baked into us that if something is taking more than a few minutes, we got to get on with Things and I'm out there walking the dogs, doing something. I enjoy trying to figure out how to make it go faster so I can get back indoors and get on my screens again. This is the madness, right?

Josh (15:01)

Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

John Eldredge (15:05)

You make these choices. I'm going to give people two really lovely choices. Do not take your phone to bed. You don't need to take your phone to bed. Buy an alarm clock, people, they're cheap. Get them down at Target or Walmart. Do not take your phone to bed. You should not be scrolling and looking and chatting and reels and stuff. You shouldn't be doing that before bedtime. You're not going to sleep well, one thing, but also you've got to create some sacred space where your soul gets to be human again. Okay, simple. Don't take your phone to bed. Other thing, do not pick your phone up first thing in the morning. So when I walk out in the kitchen, I have put my. I've plugged my phone in the night before to charge it, but I've turned it face down so that when I walk out in the kitchen in the morning, all I'm going to do, be human. I'm going to make a cup of coffee, I'm going to look out the window, I'm going to say my prayers. Because as soon as you pick up your phone, folks, you are in the matrix. Here's the Mayday text. You didn't answer. Here's the, oh, phone call from my doctor. What's that about? And you're gone. You're already down the river. You can do those two things, everybody. Don't take your phone to bed. Don't check it first thing in the morning. Give yourself 15 minutes before you pick it up.

Josh (16:30)

That's so good. It's so good. You know, I think what I remember studying some neuroscience years ago and looking at the things that you remember most or the things that most impact your subconscious. And it's the things right before bed and right when you wake up in the morning that tend to have some of the biggest impacts.

John Eldredge (16:47)

Yes, I read that as well. And it scared the bejeebers out of me because I started thinking, whoa, what am I looking at right before I go to bed? Images of the. Of the world news. It was the heartache in Gaza, it was the wildfires in Australia. It was not, not happy stuff. Right? So you can make these simple choices. We're not asking people to abandon their technology. We're inviting people to create some sacred space, create a little bit of breathing room. I Mean a one minute pause. Come on, folks, you can do that, right?

Josh (17:24)

And what's the name of that app, John?

John Eldredge (17:26)

It's literally called the Woman at Paws. And if you look it up in the App store, it's free. It'll say it's by Ransomed Heart Ministries, John Eldridge. We're now called Wild at Heart. It was just a name change, but yeah, it's called Pause and you can iPhone Android. And it's. It's lovely.

Josh (17:45)

That's so great. It's so great. You know, I. One of the things that I did an episode on Sleep here not too long ago and I talked about how now this is something I've noticed personally, now there's a lot of science behind it, but the single greatest thing somebody can do to sleep better is spend more time outside. And the single worst thing they can do that's going to disrupt their sleep is screen time at night. And so there's no doubt that the health benefits of. And we're in a nation that's really deprived of sleep. If you go back to the early 1900s, people are getting closer to nine to 10 hours of sleep a night. It's a whole hour and a half less now on average that people are getting to sleep. And that alone for healing and just being able to think more clearly in a number of things is dramatic.

John Eldredge (18:36)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. So you were born in a garden. You were created to live in the garden of Eden. All right? And your destiny is to live in a garden again. Eden returns. Okay, in the meantime, what are we thinking? Like, literally every creature on Earth has a habitat in which it thrives. So you can't put whales in the desert and you can't put, you know, desert creatures into rainforest environments. Right? Everybody's got the habitat in which they live. So do human beings. In a highly technological, Technological, highly sterile, fast paced world is not the habitat that your soul and body were created for. So we can take some steps without, you know, radical, radical life change. You can take some steps to change that. You can get outside every day. Children spend four minutes a day outside, four minutes and four hours a day on screens.

Josh (19:52)

Wow. Wow.

John Eldredge (19:55)

That's not good, folks. You got to get your kids outside, right? Get outside, collect sticks, pick up pine cones, throw snowballs, get on a bike. You can do this, everybody. The things that we're suggesting are not hard.

Josh (20:10)

Yeah. You know what's so interesting, John? I know you've. If you're, you know, a health enthusiast like I am, there's a Whole movement called biohacking. And within this community, almost all of the therapies are nature based therapies that you get benefit from because you're missing out on the real thing. Now the real thing is always better, but. And the same goes for supplements. The same goes with almost anything in the health space. So if you think about like red light beds, it's. Those are similar rays as the sun. Now the sun's even better. But you're missing that if you think about pemf, it stands for pulse electromagnetic frequency. This therapy, like these mats. That's because you're not spending enough time barefoot on the earth, right? There's like sound music. Now that music playing, it's like, well, all the sounds are of rain and waterfalls and you know, the forest, you know, so. So almost every one of these therapies are just, hey, we're trying to take, harness nature and use that because you're missing out on it so badly. But people would heal even more if they just ate real organic food from nutrient dense soil. Spend more time in sunshine, spent more time in nature. We're barefoot, you know, and, and so it really, you know, like. And they're much more in touch with this. I think in some of these eastern countries, like, I know Japan in particular, they have people do something called forest bathing as a form of therapy and healing, especially for anxiety. And so it's that, you know, these are definitely things that, you know, they can benefit people, but they're, they're still not. Not as powerful as the real thing.

John Eldredge (21:46)

Right? Yes. And again, folks, we're not saying you got to get outside now for half of your day. I know that's not available. You got to go to work, you got, you pick up your kids. I get that. But you can make some choices. You can, you can take the dog for a walk, you can go for a walk yourself, you can get on your bike, you can get outside, right. You can take your shoes off and stand in the grass and do a little grounding. You can do that. Guys, come on. This is two minutes, five minutes.

Josh (22:14)

Yeah. John, I'm curious your thoughts on that. Well, I had a couple things I want to ask you about. COVID I'm going to ask you about that about second, though. But, but you know, I think for a lot of people that they are so sucked in because it is such an addiction. And of course, by the way, I'm not. And I know John's not either. Like, not being hypocritical here because I'm as guilty as anybody is getting sucked into my phone. Yeah, yeah. Say, hey, you know, our hands are high here, so that can happen. I found for myself the best way to fix that is actually schedule time in my schedule to say I will take a 20 minute walk in the morning and right after lunch. And like I just, I have to schedule it because if not, I just. It just happens. Or it has to become a very hard habit that I'm very conscious of. Because if it's not a habit and it's not part of my schedule, then somehow I still end up on, on, on the technology.

John Eldredge (23:08)

Yes, yes. Your lifestyle is built on your habits. So whatever it is you choose to do, don't make big resolutions you can't sustain. It has to be sustainable or it won't become a habit. But once it becomes a habit, then it's really going to start paying the dividends. Right? So I have to think, John, don't take your phone to bed at night. Well, now it's a habit. I just don't do that. I have an alarm clock.

Josh (23:34)

Yeah, yeah.

John Eldredge (23:36)

And the habit now is part of my lifestyle and my lifestyle is much healthier. Okay. So choose things, folks, that are sustainable over time for you. You know yourself. You're like, oh, I'll never be able to, you know, whatever it is, go for a two mile hike each day. That's okay. That's okay. Go around the block. Start where you can.

Josh (23:58)

Yeah, yeah, it's so good. You know, one of. I saw a major, major shift in people actually getting outdoors more. More. And let me say this, there's sort of two groups, but there were a lot of people where Covid caused them to go and buy more land, remodel their house, get chickens, make sourdough bread. I mean, start, you know, becoming more. Why do you think Covid had that effect on people?

John Eldredge (24:28)

Yeah, so it was two things. First off, the cost of COVID on the human soil. And when we say Covid, we mean the whole pandemic. We mean the coronavirus, all of that, right? School's on, schools off, schools on, schools off. You're working at home, you got, you know, it was all of that, let's call it. And then the politics of it, right? Highly anxiety, Anxiety producing anxiety and depression went through the roof. So did all chemical addictions. Alcohol, tobacco, all that went through the roof during that. But what people discovered was, I, I now need, I am forced to get better. I'm going crazy. You know, it's cabin fever and all that. So what can I do to get Better. I think it was an acceleration of the awful that is our daily. It was like a condensed dose of it that caused people to say, I can't do this. I can't live like this anymore. And I'm with you. It's amazing. Like, trailheads, you couldn't find parking and, you know, go to your favorite park and everybody's out playing Frisbee. Like, I had to find new places to walk because there were 30 cars, you know, in the parking lot. So that's all good. That's okay. But, you know, let's get outside. I think that there's also something that's very mental health spiritual about this.

Josh (25:57)

Are you tired of doctors dismissing your symptoms or worse, even making you feel crazy? Even if your blood work comes back normal, it doesn't mean your health is where it should be. Think of your blood like a delivery truck carrying nutrients and hormones. But the real payoff happens when your cells open the package and use what's inside. If your cells are stuck in what's called cell danger response, triggered by stress, toxins or infections, they go into protective mode. In this state, cells close off and don't properly take in or utilize the hormones or nutrients they need from the bloodstream. Now, this makes the blood work often appear normal. So doctors often miss the deeper issue, leaving you feeling tired, gaining weight, experiencing mood swings, and dealing with other symptoms while other cells remain in a state of limbo. Visit BeyondBloodwork.com to learn how you can start changing this in as little as 30 days.

John Eldredge (26:56)

Your soul was actually never meant to know the news of the World. There's been a number of interesting studies done on this. And there was Robin Dunbar, British sociologist, anthropologist. Human beings were meant to live in small organic communities of about 150 people. And they've even done this on church sizes. Kind of like the ideal church size is about 200 people. And part of the reason for that is you're just literally not supposed to know about the tragedy that's taking place right now in the Congo. You're not supposed. We think that to be a responsible human being, this is one of the Internet disciple lies. We've all just been taught this. I'm not shaming anyone. We've just been mentored into this way of living. We think that to be a responsible human being, you need to know what's happening in Ukraine. You need to know what Trump does. You need to, you know, you know all of it. You need to know about the heartache that's taking place in. In the African Civil wars right now or in Somalia. Folks, that's a lie. Your brain was literally not created for omniscience. You're not meant to know the tragedy of the world. And so learning to reduce your news intake, if you want to reduce anxiety in your children, make their world smaller, make their world small. They should not be tuned into everything because the heartache of it, the human soul takes on the heartache as if it were its own. So here's a mind blowing piece and do you see how you and I have to keep citing the latest research to make our point? You know, that is what happened to Internet disciples. Like, you can't even convince somebody of something unless you cite this. So 9, 11, the Twin Towers are hit. Tragedy in New York. They did a study afterwards on PTSD which showed that people who watched it happening live on their televisions experience the same level of PTSD as people who are there on the streets in New York. Folks, your soul is not meant to take in the tragedy of the world. Your soul is actually a very small, lovely, finite thing. And so I check the news in the morning, I just check the headlines, three minutes maybe. I mean, if something big's going on, I need to know that, you know, and then I get off the news. Get off the news, man. Like, shrink your world back down to a human size. You're not being irresponsible, you're being humble.

Josh (29:44)

John, can I tell you the most stressed I think I've ever been was it was the last election cycle four years ago, and just keeping up with it for three or four months. And I realized to myself, and the thing is, I was probably on it a lot less than a lot of people. I mean, I'm Talking about maybe 30 minutes a day, but it was just a new thing I added in that I was paying attention to. And I realized, like, I'm very anxious. Like, this is the most anxious I've ever been in my life for anything. And it was very stressful. And I'm like, after, I'm like, you know what? I just, I can't watch the news anymore for this reason, for the most part. And, you know, it makes me what you're. And listen, I bet somebody could take what you just shared here because I saw this recently. I think we see this a lot in politics today. But this idea of, you know, do we save. Go save the world or do we go and focus on our family? You know, and I love the words, you know, Mother Teresa. What did she say? You know, she said, if you want to change the world, go home and love your family. I mean, it's such a powerful thought and statement. I think also if you look at the life of Jesus, it's a very, you know, like he wasn't going out trying to save the Gentiles. Like, he was really focused on Israel. He was really focused on his people, focused on 12 disciples. So, so I, and I love what you said there. I think there's a level of, when we find ourselves doing that, a lack of humility, you know, a source of a sense of pride that, hey, I need to go and, you know, be God, do some of the things God's supposed to do. And so, yeah, I mean, that's. It's a, it's a powerful thought. It's a powerful thought. And yeah, you know, I went, growing up, I went to a small Christian school and we had about like 32. I remember I had like 32, 33 kids in my class. And there was something about that. Like, we really connected into our church, really connected into this small Christian school that was in through eighth grade. And I think about the least anxious time of my life and the time where it's like, man, I just have such deep relationships. Actually, I have friends from junior high that. Two of my best friends still, because we just, we would watch Tommy Boy and, you know, and Dumb and Dumber pretty much on repeat over and over and over again and had such a wonderful, just, you know, the time of our lives doing it. But all that being said, when I think about the time of my life and again, I was a kid and whatnot, but I still think there was something to just that it was just such a small, tight knit community. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

John Eldredge (32:08)

Have you, have you noticed almost all children love to build forts? Right?

Josh (32:14)

Yeah.

John Eldredge (32:15)

They push some chairs together, they get a blanket, the couch cushions. Okay. This is universal. This is actually all over the world. And it was a phenomenon that began to intrigue, you know, the mental health community, because what children intuit is that they need a place to go, feel safe, to get into those little forts. You're shutting down stimulus, okay? You're. You're shutting down the news, so to speak, all the drama of the outside world. And you have a little place where it's quiet and it feels like your little safe spot. It's really, really good for mental health. Well, this, this is what prayer is meant to do for the human soul, is that you come into a quiet place. It could be your car. You know, you turn the engine off, but before you run into Work or run into your house. You take a moment in your car and you pray. Okay. God wants to be a place of refuge and comfort and solace to your body and your soul. And so that idea of building forts, I grabbed that, man. I love that. In the morning, before I even turn on a lot of lights, I'll just light a candle and I'll have my coffee and I'll say my prayers. And it's my little fort. It's my little quiet space. Right. No news from the world yet.

Josh (33:40)

Yeah.

John Eldredge (33:41)

No email. You need this, everybody. Your soul is designed to have a little sanctuary every day. And prayer and communion with Christ was meant to be that.

Josh (33:54)

Wow. It's reminding me of. Well, you know, in the book of Daniel and in other places throughout scripture, they reference, you know, having a prayer closet. You know, it's like, why do you need a closet? Right. It's like, you got a whole house. Maybe you're the only person living in there. Why, you know, why do you need a prayer closet? But it's, you know, I'm sure it's for this very same reason.

John Eldredge (34:11)

Exactly. Yeah. Because the soul needs help, everybody. You got to be gentle with your soul. You got to shepherd it into these spaces. The soul needs help shutting out stimulus and tuning into the inner life. I mean, just to ask, how is your soul today? How is your heart? Okay. Well, if you'll create little quiet, I call them sacred spaces. Right. And for some people, it's literally before they get out of bed, you're still tucked in. Right. And it's quiet in the house for a minute. Well, good. Say your prayers right there. Right.

Josh (34:51)

I'm thinking about the contrast of, you know, you're inside and you're having this intimate time with God, and you're having. You're in your prayer closet, you're in your car, you're in the safe space in the. Just the power and the healing that takes place in there. And there's a sense of sort of that security and safety and comfort, sort of that Maslow's hierarchy that's at the very bottom. Right. You've got to feel that safe and security. And then there's also this element, the other element that's missing that you've talked about. And again, this is what captivated me about Wild at Heart. Like, it was one of the most stirring books I'd ever read, maybe ever at the time in my life. And. And there's another book I was reading recently. I don't know if you've read Abraham, Joshua, Hashel, man in search of God. But it's a. It's a great book. Basically. The book's about the, like, living in a state of awe and wonder. And so what Wild at Heart made me think of is sort of. Then you get out and sort of like you're looking at, like, the ocean or the mountains or. It's sort of like everything is big. And how. That's sort of almost the opposite of Maslow's hierarchy, which is this safety and security. You're at this sort of like, divine sort of, you know. What's the word? Sort of just. Just. Yeah, almost the opposite in a way. And just thinking about, like, I'm small, I'm here, I'm safe, I'm secure. God is big. Wow. This is crazy and amazing and breathtaking, you know, and so sort of being able to. How I get both of those.

John Eldredge (36:17)

Yeah.

Josh (36:18)

Yeah.

John Eldredge (36:18)

That's so good. Yeah. Because we're made for the intimate and the epic. We're made for both the intimate and the epic. And so the night sky, the horizon, thunderstorms, waterfalls, all of it. A forest for one thing, folks, beauty heals the soul. Beauty heals the soul. And you're going to prefer the real to the artificial. Okay? So that looking at pictures is good. I like nature shows, but it's a lot better to get out in it. Right? Beauty heals the soul. And so you take. You take your walk in the woods or to the park or. Yeah, if you can get to the ocean, you know, when the thunderstorms are going, you listen to it, you watch the lightning. It's good for the soul. It really is. It nourishes the soul.

Josh (37:13)

That's so good.

John Eldredge (37:13)

This is a fascinating thing, Josh. So why do we bring flowers when people are hurting or they've lost someone or they're sick? Right. It's. I don't know what to say. Here's some beauty. I know you're feeling bad. Here's some beauty. Right? Okay. Intuitively, we know it works. And it's almost always natural beauty. Right. We bring real flowers, not fake ones. Right. Because it has the power to nourish the soul. It reminds us of the goodness of God. Beauty reminds you of the goodness of God.

Josh (37:51)

You know, one of the other things, too, and you had mentioned this, there's an element of. I think you said the word here, like it's natural. Like, I think about the nicest homes, the ones that you're like, well, one, they're probably the most expensive, but also they're the most comfortable. They're just the best is homes that are made of like, stone and marble and wood and all those real things versus stucco or whatever it might be. Right. I mean, there's something there. I mean, I saw this thing and I want to say it was. It was. It was a psychologist and he was talking about modern architecture versus architecture from, you know, the time of Michelangelo that, you know, the Renaissance and some of those. And basically how even our architecture today is depressing. It's like gray, stone cold in color. It's just flat. It has no character. Versus you think about the Sistine Chapel or the temple that's Solomon. But whatever it is of it being. Or just even Roman architecture just being sort of like, you know, unawe and uninspiring in today. So there are just. There's so many things today that aren't beautiful and that are fake and not the real thing. And so I think the more. And of course, this is so much of what I teach it, you know, is like, start just eating real food. I mean, my actually first sort of tagline I had was just eat real food when I was in my clinic because there were so many different conditions, so many questions about things, and I just found, listen, if you just. And I would teach people when they go in the grocery store, just shop on the outside. It's where the vegetables are, it's where the meat is, it's where the eggs are. The dare. Just don't go in the middle, you know?

John Eldredge (39:35)

Yep, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's really good. Because. Okay, so the interaction with the rill as you're making that dinner, you're chopping garlic, right? You're getting all of it, right? You're getting the texture, the fragrance. The experience of it is really, really good for the soul as well. You are engaging the rill, right? And it's going to be nature. You know, it's the onion, it's the, you know, beautiful salmon that you're about to grill. Right? You're engaging the real again as opposed to the artificial.

Josh (40:14)

It's so good. It's so good. I wanted to ask you about your daily practices, some of the things you do, and I'd love to just kind of also hear just the practical. So I think most of us are living in this state you've talked about where on our phones. And the studies are mind blowing. I mean, literally, I want to say that a lot of people are on devices almost 10 hours a day. And I know that's a fact for gen z. It's almost 10 hours a day. I mean, it's crazy. And so when you think about how addicted we are today, what are some of the solutions proactively that people can do? And then how do you live this out also in your own life?

John Eldredge (40:59)

That's so good. Well, okay, that's really fair because this is how discipleship used to work. You would go find a sage, right? Or a desert father or mother. You go find a saint and you'd hang out with him. Okay, you're talking about Jesus plan for changing the world. It didn't start with big crowds, right? It's like, change a few people who change a few people who change a few people and pretty soon, you know, you've changed the world. Okay, so what do I do? Let's start with I go to bed at a reasonable time. I go to bed by 9pm, oftentimes 8pm I'm looking to get adequate sleep. So I. And I actually don't set an alarm. I said, I have an alarm in there. I do, but it's just so I can have a clock in there. I don't set an alarm. I'm going to let my body sleep as long as it needs to sleep. Okay, so. But before we go to bed, those of us who ranch life and that sort of thing work in the horse world. There's an adage that the condition you put the horse away in is the condition you'll find him in when you go back. So if you put your soul away all flurried and flustered and that sort of thing, you're not going to be great in the morning. All right, so what do we do? We turn off technology and the last hour of our evening. So 7 to 8pm It's a cup of tea, it's reading, it's conversation. We're not watching things. Stacey and I play cards. We love, we love doing that together. Go to bed. I wake up early because now my body is rested, I'm ready to go. So I wake up early in the morning and like I said, I'll walk out in the morning. I don't pick up my phone as best I can. And we're trying, folks. Josh and I are not perfect at this. We're trying. Sometimes I do. But for me, my morning prayer time is very, very important. I'll actually start one of the God's greatest gifts to the world with noise canceling headphones. That's your little cubby, that's your little fort. That's your little sacred space. Put my Headphones on, I listen to some worship music that's quiet, not rock and roll. I listen to audio scripture, listen to someone else reading the Psalms to me. That's a lovely thing. And then I'll say my prayers. Okay, so what does that look like? Well, now I'm going to have a healthy breakfast. You know, I love AG1, so I'll do that. I'll do some green shakes, you know, have some blueberries, that kind of thing. I eat well. I care about what I put in my body. I try not to over stimulate my body with caffeine, sugar, you know, and then sedate it in the evening with alcohol. I don't, I don't like that. So going to my day, I gotta go to work. So, you know, get in the car. I listen to the five minute news, those little news summaries that like CNN and NPR and other, you know, channels have. Just listen to a little bit of news and then turn it off. And now here's the key thing. This is really fun. So in our offices at 10am and 2pm every day, monastery bells ring out. It's just a recording. We don't have bells, but. And everybody in the office knows we're pausing for 60 seconds because by 10 in the morning you are spun up, right? You are already anxious and buzzing and kind of thing. I stop, I let it go. Okay? At noon, I walk out of the building and I just walk around outside. I take my lunch break to get outside, even if it's cold. You know, in Colorado, I walk around, give myself the outdoors. And one of the things I love to do outdoors is I touch things. If there's a puddle, touch it right Tree bark, touch it, pick up rocks, break eucalyptus leaves and smell the fragrance, break juniper branches, smell the right. Like I engage my soul in the real world.

Josh (45:12)

Wow, okay.

John Eldredge (45:13)

And it looks like this on and through, on and through the day. But that gives you an idea of like, I'm caring for my body and soul with simple sacred rhythms. I'm gonna give one last thing that everybody can do. So here's the temptation. When you and I are done with this interview, I'm going to be kind of amped, right? Because like, this is exciting. We're talking about things that matter to us. The temptation is go straight to the next thing. So we'll just pick up the phone, we'll get, we'll get on another zoom call, we just go to the next thing, Next thing. The next thing, next thing, next thing. You can't do that to the soul. The soul needs transitional moments from one thing to the next. And so instead of doing that, I'm going to go make a cup of tea. I'm going to chuck the ball for the dogs. I'm going to take a few minutes of transition between one event and the next one. Those little transitional moments are sacred, man. They are life saving.

Josh (46:14)

That's so good. There's a physician, I think he's a physician. He wrote a book called Margin and it's that.

John Eldredge (46:22)

Oh yeah, Dr. Richard Swenson. It's brilliant.

Josh (46:25)

Yes. Yeah, that was a great book. Yeah. He got into like, you can't, you know, the sickness is, it's causing of, especially mentally, of just, you know, every moment of every second of every day of just, you know, having something from here to the moment. You just, you know, you pass out at night. And I think there's so much power there. You know, one of the things that I. I've been so excited about recently, John, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, is this sort of spiritual awakening that's happened coming out of COVID You know, I did an episode recently and maybe some of it was a little controversial. Just talking about how I generally am happy that. Trying to think how to say this, that Covid happened the way it happened because so many people woke up and realize that I've been lied to. And I think that caused a lot of the people that are more maybe self aware and maybe more truth seekers to find God and to discover truth. Like Russell Brand, I think is a good example of this. I mean, he's a person who now has just confessed his faith in Christ is, you know, I mean, really radically, radically changed his life because he's a person that did want to find the truth. And this exposed a lot of things. And, you know, and so I think that one of the things that maybe a lot of people don't know how to do, and I was really blessed to have parents like this, John, that really taught me that spirituality is not about rituals first, it's about relationship first, but using rituals in order to have a greater relationship. And so for me, it's like, you know, if Chelsea and I do a date night a week, it's like, well, I'm not worshiping the date night or I'm not obsessed with the date night. I'm obsessed and love my wife, right. And so. But the ritual, whether it's communion or something else, is, you know, it's a great way to draw closer. If you also, if you know, the number one Goal is relationship. And in all of your books you do such a good job of, I think, getting into here's what this looks like, or here's how to truly start to build a relationship with God and do something meaningful. Because again, I think there's an element sometimes when people think about spirituality, it's like, well, I need to meditate or I need to pray or I need to like, it's sort of like I need to because it's this thing that I have to. If not I'm an immoral or a bad person and I want to be more moral versus no, I want this deep, meaningful relationship. So I'd love to, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that in terms of, hey, what's, what's part of what's causing this spiritual awakening in a lot of people today. And, and also how do we draw closer to God?

John Eldredge (49:12)

Mm hmm. Wow. Huge questions. I think you're right. I think reality is a brutal teacher. Right. Reality is what you hit when you're wrong. Okay, so we hit reality in a lot of ways through the pandemic and just found this is not sustainable. I don't want to live like that. I don't think I trust these folks anymore. I, you know, I need reality. Your body starts breaking down or your mental health issues, it's a wake up call. Right? You go, why am I so anxious? Why, why do I have gut issues? What? You know, go, right, yeah. Reality is what you hit when you're wrong. You can't live like that. Okay, well, the same thing is true of God. The human soul cannot live without God. When Jesus says things like, I'm the vine, you're the branch, he's describing an actual exchange of life. He says, I want to nourish you, I want to sustain you. I want to be your source of hope and security. Right? Through an actual union. Life doesn't work without that. I don't care who you are, how successful you are. And what's interesting is the people who make a lot of money find this out sooner than others, right? Because you kind of get everything you want, you buy the stuff and you go, I'm no happier.

Josh (50:43)

Right?

John Eldredge (50:43)

Okay. We are in the midst of a great spiritual revival in the world now. It's exploding in places like Africa and South America. It's starting to finally happen in the west with guys like Russell Brand and other. Even Joe Rogan has moved from being a total atheist to being like acknowledging. Well, I think there's something to this Christianity thing. He's not fully there yet. Pray for. But the human soul is created for a rich intimacy with God. And what will help you in that direction is God will meet you in the things that you love. So you go, oh, I love, I love cycling. Great. As you're cycling, enjoy the presence of God because he gave it to you and he's right there with you. I love music. Good. He's right there. He gave you the gift, he gave you the ear. Now you acknowledge his presence in it. He'll meet you in the things you love. Rather than, oh, you need to become an aesthetic or you need, now you need to become a monk or no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He'll meet you right now right where you are. And the other thing that's an epiphany for people is the doorway is the heart. The mind is a lovely instrument, but the heart is where the action is. When you fall in love with somebody, it's not because you thought it through. Right? Your heart is in it. Right. When you're having a gas on vacation, it's not because your reason has figured it out. Heart's alive. You're like, this is so much fun. Okay. The heart is where the action is. You want to cultivate a heart to heart with God, okay? So bring your heart to the process. And if right now what your heart says is, I'm hurting, great, that's what you bring. Okay? God, I'm hurting. I need your help, I'm anxious, I need your help. Right? Bring your heart straight into the conversation.

Josh (52:52)

Yeah. One of the things that I, I think because I'm, you know, I'm an achiever, I'm wired to be a busy person. You know, One of the things that I really have to do when I pray is not remember not to just make a lot of requests. It's to also listen. It's like I'm talking, I'm talking, I'm talking in prayer. And I was even thinking about this last night. So we were, every night we get around our dinner table, we do family dinner. I got a one year old and four year old daughter. And so our four year old will pray. But I was actually thinking about this afterwards. I thought, you know, as we're teaching my daughter Arwen to pray, I thought, well, one of the things that I would love to do is also, you know, part of prayer is listening, right? And my wife does such a great job of this with her. So she actually started doing this a little bit. I was like, we need to do this more just in terms of. And I think today when people hear prayer, I do think the first thing they think of is say stuff to God versus be able to sit there in the stillness and listen to that consciousness of God, you know, that still small voice that the Bible describes, and be able to hear what's he saying. And today it feels like it's harder to do that than ever before because there's so much noise. And to your point, getting out of the noise, spending time and pausing, putting on the noise, canceling headphones. These are things that to be able to actually listen, you know?

John Eldredge (54:13)

Yes, yes, yes. And folks, let me tell you that the first things that you're going to hear are going to be things like, I love you, you're okay, we're going to do this together. The first things you hear as you listen and let God speak during your prayer time will be words of assurance.

Josh (54:35)

Okay?

John Eldredge (54:36)

He's not going to scold you. He's not going to give you a whole bunch of hard things to go do. He's immensely kind. So don't be afraid of the listening part. You get quiet, you listen, you just say, father, what are you saying today, Jesus, what are you saying? A lot of times all he says to me is, I'm with you. I'm like, okay, good. I need you with me.

Josh (55:05)

That's powerful. That's so good. It's so good. Well, yeah, it's been exciting to see. And yeah, you mentioned Joe Rogan. I think Jordan Peterson is somebody that we've seen continue to move over the past several years. I think Jim Carrey, I mean, there's been a lot of people I've seen that have sort of experienced this awakening. And I think that part of it is people, as you mentioned, it's like, I think I heard a pastor say this once or some of this degree. It's like, you know, when you hit rock bottom, the only place you can look is up, you know, and who's up there, you know, so it's just sort of. So I think Covid to your point, caused some people losing their businesses or, you know, or just being inside all the time and not being, you know, just, you know, cause them to seek God more, to seek truth. And so that's been, that's been encouraging. You know, I want to mention for everybody here that you have a new book out. It's called Experience Jesus. Really? And I think for a lot of people, this is what we kind of discussed before. I think that a lot of times it's, you know, Jesus might feel Far off or again, or people might be thinking about religion or not Jesus at all. And it's stale and it's not. It's artificial. It's not the real thing. And so talk to me a little bit about some of these principles or some of the ideas or thoughts in the book you wrote and experience Jesus really well.

John Eldredge (56:30)

Just like I was saying, you know, in. In ages past, you would have gone and found someone who knew God and you would have hung out with them and say, teach me how to experience what you experience. We need guidance into this. It's not your fault you're having a hard time hearing God. It's not your fault you're having a hard time even making room for God. You're a disciple of the Internet. It was baked into you from childhood. Like, this isn't something you did wrong. It's something that was done to all of us. It's just what it means to live in the modern moment with chaos and all of that. That's okay. There are some practices you can take up, like the one minute pause. If I give you anything to do today, download the app, it's free. And just learn to pause because it's what it is. It's not just silence. There's beautiful music, there's guided prayer. It's very simple, it's very lovely. That will help. Okay, and then the practices we've been talking about, you do need to create a little bit of space for this. And it might be last thing in the evening, it might be your lunchtime, it might be first thing in the morning, a little bit of space. The Carmelite friar, Brother Lawrence wrote a book called Practicing the Presence of God. I like the idea of practicing. Okay, you can go. I'm going to give this a try until I kind of get the hang of it. Right. That's what you do when you practice. I'm going to give it a try until I get the hang of it. And so you're going to create some of that 20 minutes in the morning or in the evening on your lunch break, and you're going to practice sitting with the presence of God. You just say, I love you. I love you, Father. Thank you for your goodness to me. Thank you for this cup of coffee. Thank you for this new day. What are you saying? And you just linger. You just learn to linger. And you might read a psalm or a proverb, you might listen to something, but it's not primarily content based. Right. It's what you were saying. It's relationship based. And as you Practice communing with the God who is right here with you. You get better at it, like riding a bike or playing tennis. And then you're like, oh, wow, I'm really tuned in. So what should we do? Is it time to sell the house? And he'll guide you. Right. In all your questions of life, he'll guide you.

Josh (58:59)

That's so good. You know, John, one thing I'm curious or this just sort of popped into my head is that, you know, I think that some of the church today maybe has gotten away from the discipleship. I think there's a lot more lectures, there's a lot more programs, but maybe there's not as much of that sort of one on one discipleship. I have to think back. So again, I was so blessed to grow up in the Christian home. I did and to have parents who, who kind of put me in these things. And so I, I felt like I, like, I don't know that most churches have Sunday school anymore, but like I went and I felt like that was a much smaller group of people my age that I was sort of. And then I went on Wednesday night. Like I was actually in discipleship groups all through for a long time. And my. Any success that I've had has been due to being discipled or mentored. I mean, it's just, it's been, you know, like, like I actually went to business school. I actually went and got a doctorate in medicine. You know, I learned some stuff here, but I learned way more from the doctors I was shadowing. Way more. It's not even close.

John Eldredge (60:10)

Yep.

Josh (60:12)

So, you know, I think for. What's your advice to people who need to be discipled and like, they know I want to be discipled, I want to be mentored. How do you go and find a mentor or find somebody that you can latch on to? Obviously there's an element of doing it online to a degree, so there's some benefit there. But also like we've talked about, nothing is like the real. You know, I'm trying to think what. There wasn't there old commercial nothing like the real thing, baby. Anyways, I can't remember what that was.

John Eldredge (60:40)

Yeah, absolutely.

Josh (60:41)

But yeah, yeah.

John Eldredge (60:44)

Okay, so let's just remind everybody the why is really big. So there's knowledge about things and there's knowledge of things. You know, you know about the rings of Saturn, but you ain't never been there. Okay, yeah, you know, you know about the South Pole. Very few of you have been there. You don't have knowledge of it. Experiential knowledge. So as you're thinking about, who do I want to listen to, it's not primarily their brilliance. Do they know God? Are they experiencing a genuine life with God that they're telling you about or are they just giving you the tips and the principles and, you know, the latest thing and that kind of thing? That's a big difference. You want to be discipled by people who actually know God. Okay. Some of those people you may have to find in books and in podcasts. That's okay. That's okay. I mean, some of my greatest mentors have been C.S. lewis, right. George MacDonald and the Christian mystics like Jean Guyot and St. John of the Cross. But you do want to try and find some folks that you can walk with in real life that know God. So as you visit a church, as you're kind of taking things in, what you're looking for is do these people sound like they actually know God or do they know about God? They're kind of reporting facts on the rings of Saturn, you know, versus oh, they've been to Saturn, like that. They know God and I want to be with people like that. So just distinguish the difference there because what you're after is the deep experiential.

Josh (62:35)

Knowledge of God and it's this principle that Jesus taught right. By their fruit, you will recognize them. And it's not by their great lecture or their charisma or their, you know, savviness. It's their. It's through their. Yeah, it's through their fruit. And I think, you know, this is true with homeless. It can be true with marriage. You want to have a great marriage who is somebody that truly has a great marriage. Not on the outside, but when you get around them and you really see that affection and that care and that support and that spurring on. So that's great advice. That's a great differentiation between the two to find the real thing.

John Eldredge (63:11)

Yeah. And obviously that's why I wrote a book called Experience Jesus, period. Really? Period. Because we haven't been mentored into the kind of rich, rich experiential life that many of our spiritual forefathers and mothers knew. And so I'm using some of their stories and their lives and my life and Stacy's my wife to invite people in. Well, if you need a mentor, I'd love to be one of those voices in your life. Let me take you into the experience of it rather than just more content.

Josh (63:50)

Yeah, I love it. Well, John, I have so many just life changing takeaways. For myself, I know one is, you know, searching out the real thing and spending more time in the real thing, spending time in nature, less time on devices. And then the pausing, I think, again, just doing it for one minute, it leads to other things as well. One minute's transformational, but then it will lead to more transformation. It's like, it's such a great. It's like when I go to the gym, if I don't want to go, what I'll tell myself is, listen, you don't have to have a hard workout today. Just go walk on the treadmill for five minutes. Yeah, walk five more. Okay. And by the end, I got my hour in or 45 minutes or whatever I'm trying to do. So I think the idea around pausing and spending time in nature and building a deep, intimate relationship with Christ, really experiencing him, not just the facts, but an actual relationship. And so now I want to encourage everybody to check out John's app. If they just go on the App Store and look up, pause. Yes, it'll pop up.

John Eldredge (64:54)

Yep.

Josh (64:55)

And then his book, Experience Jesus. Really? If you want to experience life transformation in a true, the most deeply meaningful relationship of your life, check out the book Experience Jesus. Really. It's in bookstores nationwide. You can also go to Amazon.com it's a great thing to check out. I couldn't recommend any more, just John, so many of his books. And again, these have been books that have actually change my life. And I think for all of you listening, if you're in this point in your life where you're saying, I want to break through. I want to experience something that's divine and real and powerful and improve my happiness and improve my health. This is such a great. A great book to check out, Experience Jesus. Really. And John wanted to say it was a true honor today. Again, I probably read your book when I was. It was definitely in college. It would have been probably between 2000 and 2004 sometime in there, but it was just. Man, such a great, empowering book. So thanks so much for all the work you do.

John Eldredge (65:58)

Thank you, Josh. That's really kind. I'm cheering what you're doing, too, because I think the intersection of body and soul and spirit is really important. I really do.

Josh (66:08)

Awesome. Well, thanks again. Well, everybody want to say thanks so much for tuning in here to the Dr. Josh action. Remember, every week we're diving deep into the science and the principles behind how you can grow and heal in body, mind and spirit. And big thank you to John Eldredge today for his wisdom. Hey, if you're watching on YouTube, hey, let us know what is your biggest takeaway from something John shared with you today and what's maybe an action step, something that you're going to do from what you've learned today. And also, I want to just say thank you, all of you, for sharing this episode who are on mission with me and with John. We want to help people live their best lives. And so thank you for all of you for sharing this. Thank you, all your subscribers out there for being on mission as well, praying for the best for you. And I'll see you on the next episode.