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- [00:00]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [00:08]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [00:12]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [00:21]
Stephen
That's right.
- [00:21]
Olivia Zarella
Hey. Hey.
- [00:22]
Stephen
So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [00:26]
Hayden
And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. So spoiler alert, he'll be wrong.
- [00:33]
Stephen
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:42]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [01:09]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
Don't use if allergic to Skyrizi. Serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor about any flu like symptoms or vaccines.
- [01:21]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [01:43]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
We've spoken on this show a handful of times about, you know, the anti vax movement and our worries that things like measles might come back if people don't take their vaccinations seriously. Well, it's here.
- [01:58]
Olivia Zarella
In the first two months of this year, there have been more than a thousand confirmed measles cases across the United States. Measles cases continue to rise in Washington. So far this year, the State has reported 26 confirmed cases. That's more than double the total number of cases reported in 2025.
- [02:13]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
New state data shows Iowa's measles vaccination
- [02:16]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
rate is below the level experts say is needed for strong community protection.
- [02:21]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
According to the Alabama Department of Public Health. A measles outbreak in Alabama is no longer a matter of if, but when.
- [02:27]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
Measles exposures are now confirmed in all three Triangle cities and some towns and cities around them as well.
- [02:33]
Olivia Zarella
Measles continues to spread in the US With South Carolina currently experiencing the biggest outbre outbreak it's seen in decades.
- [02:41]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
And just the past year, the US
- [02:42]
Olivia Zarella
has seen more measles cases than it
- [02:45]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
has in the previous 25 years.
- [02:48]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
In the face of this breaking news, that amongst all the other news right now isn't getting the most attention. I wanted to talk to someone who understands what all this means, whether we're safe, what we can do for ourselves and others, and how to just process that. There's this thing we got rid of that kills people, but it's. It's back.
- [03:10]
Olivia Zarella
My name is Olivia Zarella. I have a doctorate in public health and a master's in public health. I actually started working at Emory University during my master's in mosquito borne diseases. So like Zika, dengue, you know, West Nile is a mosquito borne disease. And then I ended up shifting to working on COVID 19 related work because I came out to Colorado for my doctorate degree in 2019 and then the world shut down shortly after, things shifted to work with airborne viruses such as Covid. And my dissertation was on pandemic preparedness and health policy related to COVID 19. Since then I have worked as an infection prevention specialist for the University of Colorado campus, which has more than 4,000 people. And now I am a research associate at the University of Colorado. I do want to say that all the views and all the things that I say on this podcast are my own.
- [04:08]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
So what do you mean by you got a doctorate in public health? Like, what is this stuff?
- [04:12]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah, so I mean, we could really get into it. So I actually have my doctorate in public health and environmental and occupational health, which is basically just a bunch of words. And what that really means is it's understanding the things around you in an environmental sense that impact your well being and health. That can include infectious diseases, that can include things that lead to chronic disease like diabetes or cancer. And it's not just, you know, climate and health. So when we think of environment, I think people kind of go towards the, you know, the weather kind of approach to environment. But it actually is all of the things around us that really impact our well being and health. I had to do a dissertation, I had to do the whole nine yards, the testing, the research. It took me about five years to get it. And it was a very Rigorous degree. It just is. It sets you up for being in more of a leadership position, whether that's in the federal government or health policy related or local government and, or you know, some sort of chief decision making person in a nonprofit. So really, like, you would be the
- [05:15]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
perfect candidate to run hhs.
- [05:19]
Olivia Zarella
Actually, I would prefer them have an md, but yeah, I appreciate that. That is very sweet of you. I don't think I'll say that out loud. I think that I'm a better candidate, that's for sure, Director. But I think I probably need another decade or so of experience before we get there.
- [05:41]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
We're going to start with the very basic questions about measles, which is what is measles? Like, why does it suck?
- [05:48]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. So measles is a viral respiratory illness. It's not a bacteria, so it can't be treated with antibiotics. It basically spreads through the air. So. And the interesting part about it is that it can linger in a room for up to two hours after an infected person has left the room.
- [06:05]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yikes.
- [06:06]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. You don't need to touch anyone. You don't need to be in the same room at the same time as the person that it was that is infected and was there. Measles is in a different category of concern for a lot of public health people and a lot of doctors because of what we call the R naught, which is how many people one infected person will on average infect in a population with zero immunity. So when we talk about zero immunity, we're talking like the unvaccinated population.
- [06:36]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
So if you put 100 unvaccinated people and you throw one person with measles in that room with them at a wedding or whatever else between 12 to
- [06:45]
Olivia Zarella
18 will end up having measles.
- [06:47]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
So like one in six. Yikes. And what, what does it do to the person?
- [06:52]
Olivia Zarella
Yes. So there's a timeline that basically happens. So usually what happens is there's an incubation period, so that's about one to 14 days post that exposure at the wedding. Let's say this person may have no symptoms. They have no idea that they're infected. So for the first one to four days of illness, the symptoms that might occur in some people are that high fever. So between 101 to 104 degrees Fahrenheit, sometimes higher, which is awful. And then you have a persistent dry cough, you have a bad runny nose, you might have conjunctivitis, it looks like pink eye. And then the pathogenomic sign, which basically means that these tiny little White spots show up and they appear on the inside of the cheeks. And pathogenomic for your listeners is if you see it, that's your diagnosis. That's measles. We know that that's measles. They disappear quickly, though, so they're often missed. But if you do catch them within that one to four days of illness, then that's measles, full stop. And then about three to eight days of the illness, this is what most people are picturing. And it's. It starts with these flat red spots on the face and the hairline. And so kind of like that rash, right? And it can spread so from, like, your neck to the trunk of your body to your arms, your legs, your feet. And the spots can merge to become these kind of large blotchy patches. Your fever will spike between potentially sometimes between 104 to 106 degrees. And before the fever even shows up, like, usually four days before the fever appears, you're maximally contagious. So you might have just like that high fever and cough and might think it's just like the flu. You're actually contagious, very contagious with measles. So it's hard because. Right. Everybody knows about the rash, but they may link the rash to measles. That's kind of like the most talked about symptom. And it hasn't shown up at that time. You just think you might have a bad cold or a flu and you're very contagious. And the issue really with measles is that it can be deadly. Right. So there's a lot of people that are saying, okay, let me just. You know, measles is some. Our child can get through it. Like, the probability of dying may be not that high. And actually, there are some things that they should be very concerned about. And it's not just a rash. So, you know, one in 10 cases can have an ear infection, which can cause permanent hearing loss. One in 10 cases has been found to have dangerous dehydration risk. So that can be, you know, that can lead to death, especially in young children that don't have adequate nutrition and support to get through that. One in 20 children may get pneumonia. And that is one of the most common causes of measles deaths is like pneumonia is showing up and developing, and then a child passing away from that. And then finally, one in a thousand children with measles will get permanent brain damage or deafness or an intellectual disability because of encephalitis, which is basically just brain swelling.
- [10:15]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Okay. Yeah, lots of negative outcomes. Yep. Do you know much about, like, what the world looked like at the time that the measles vaccine was developed?
- [10:27]
Olivia Zarella
So I can say that when the vaccine was developed, it was developed in 1960. Well, it was licensed in 1963 and there was a ton of cases then. And it wasn't until 1989 that there was a second dose that was recommended, because for the MMR vaccine, which is the measles vaccine, there's two doses, and I believe when it was licensed in 1963, it was just that one dose and that's about 93% effective against measles, which is fantastic in comparison to 0% effective. But that spike that was happening around the time that the vaccine was licensed, it obviously dropped with that one dose, but it wasn't enough to make an impact. So they recommended a second dose with obviously scientific research and testing for safety and efficacy.
- [11:18]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
And this is like 20 something years later. So they've seen what happens over time after your first dose.
- [11:26]
Olivia Zarella
Absolutely. This is evidence based and it's also based on risk. Right. So the safety and efficacy of the vaccine is going to be safer and more important than the actual disease that it's vaccinating against. Right. So, yeah. So the two doses. With two doses, it's about 97% effective. And that second dose was recommended in 1989 and then actually around 2000, they declared measles as eliminated in the United States. Yeah. What that means is that there were no locally acquired cases of measles. In other words, anybody that ended up being a new case of measles after or during 2000 was found to have contracted it internationally and then came back to the United States. So we were. We were on a good trajectory in
- [12:15]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
2000, but so long as everybody does it.
- [12:18]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. So that's that herd immunity idea.
- [12:20]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [12:21]
Olivia Zarella
Where you want to have a percentage of the population actually vaccinated to ensure that those that haven't yet been vaccinated, maybe they intend to, but it's an age requirement, you know, you have to wait a bit to get the first and then the second dose based on a timeline set by acip. So there's children or babies that haven't yet had the vaccine. And so having that 97.5% vaccine vaccination rate in the population helps protect those individuals that are either immunocompromised and can't get the vaccine or have yet to get the dose that they need to to protect themselves.
- [12:55]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
So everything's going along, chugging along smoothly. People don't have measles, people don't have mumps, rubella, polio, all the things that we vaccinated against. Andrew Wakefield is the man who put out that false study around autism and the connection to vaccines that was published in 1998. One year prior, Andrew Wakefield patented a single shot measles vaccine.
- [13:31]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. I believe it was not approved. Yes.
- [13:37]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Can we just talk about that moment for a second? Because like this man's mind is where all of this hysteria has come from around vaccine avoidance.
- [13:48]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. So Andrew Wakefield is like, oh God, man, I'd like to punch in the face. He was a British gastroenterologist. So like a gut doctor. He was not a neurologist, he's not an immunologist. And he, he published a study in the Lancet, which is really annoying that the Lancet was like, we're going to publish this. There's a reason we have peer review and somebody messed up at the Lancet because if you know anything about publishing papers, which you may not, the Lancet is a pretty well known goal journal that you try to get your papers into because technically and historically it has scientifically peer reviewed impact heavy papers. So they really make a change or they talk about policy and science together. And so somehow he got published and in his paper he said that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and a bowel condition and then also autism. But another thing that you need to know about scientific research is we have, we use statistics for a reason and we have these guidelines that basically you put in place to ensure that what you're finding from when you're running these statistical analysis on your data is actually true and accurate. And it's not just extrapolating or making things up, running statistics. It requires some literal guidelines and really important baseline statistical understanding. What was interesting and unfortunate about his 1998 paper is that this study only involved 12 children. That's a sample size that's so small that you can't logistically draw conclusions from it. Usually you just call that a case study and you would say this is what we saw in these 12 children. But it doesn't mean that first and foremost that the findings that we have here are accurate. It's just kind of, we're just describing it and they drew like first of all, unethical, 100% unethical. His behavior, like sweeping conclusions are drawn from 12 people. And just for the knowledge of the people, you know, your listeners, usually you need at least 30 people and that's still a very small sample size. You Want, in my opinion, like, you know, at least hundreds if not thousands of people to make an actual conclusion. And research doesn't make causal inferences. We make what we call associations. So we say something might be associated to this, but we need to know more. You can't just make a causal. Hey, this is linked to this kind of situation.
- [16:19]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Correlation is not causation.
- [16:21]
Olivia Zarella
Exactly.
- [16:22]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
And I think people forget what the scientific method is. And we learned it. I think it's sixth or seventh grade. But I think people forget that there is like a method to the way scientists come up with their findings.
- [16:37]
Olivia Zarella
Absolutely. We do hypothesis testing. We utilize very well known, like I said, statistical testing methods. We. Yes. So there. And then we also argue amongst ourselves about how we're probably wrong. So, you know, that's just the other side of it. But it is.
- [16:54]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
No, but that's an important side. Don't skip past that. Like, the fact that you all are invested enough to like confront one another when you feel like something's awry is very important to the rest of us that don't know what you're talking about.
- [17:09]
Olivia Zarella
Absolutely. And I think, you know, a lot of times that silos are jargon and it makes it difficult and not accessible for the public. But there is really a process that we probably need to communicate better about in the future.
- [17:23]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
You're the third scientist I've had on the show that has said this.
- [17:27]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. Like I went to school forever to learn how to be an ethical and accurate scientist. And there's a reason I went through that training because the work that we're doing and the way that we communicate it impacts views and culture and ultimately can impact life and, you know, death. So and this, and Andrew Wakefield is a huge example of that. As someone who ignored that, he ignored that. If anything, he deliberately falsified his data too, which there was a journalist that basically identified that he had falsified his data and he had undisclosed financial conflicts of interest. You know, all in all, this man did not follow the tenets of scientific research. And it's just so unfortunate that, you know, because his findings are so, you know, abnormal and go against what I guess the culture of science and years of research has said in saying that autism is linked to vaccines. That really picked up those fear mongering, I guess, people that are attracted to misinformation and disinformation. So. We'll be right back.
- [18:40]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
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- [19:46]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
My perfect day has sand, salt water and friends, but my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis can take me out of the moment. Now I'm all in with clearer skin thanks to Skyrizi Risankizumab RZA, a prescription only 150mg injection for adults who are candidates for systemic or phototherapy with Skyrizi. Most people saw 90% clearer skin and many were even 100% plaque free at four months. Skyrizi is just four doses a year after two starter doses.
- [20:13]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
Don't use if allergic to Skyrizi. Serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor about any flu like symptoms or vaccines.
- [20:26]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
Thanks to Skyrizi, there's nothing on my skin and that means everything.
- [20:30]
Olivia Zarella
Nothing is everything.
- [20:34]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
Ask your doctor about Skyrizi, the number one dermatologist prescribed biologic in psoriasis. Visit skyrizi.com or call 1-866-Skyrizi to learn more.
- [20:44]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of Sanderson.
- [20:52]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash
- [20:56]
Hayden
Daddy and we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn but here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [21:05]
Stephen
That's right.
- [21:05]
Hayden
Hey.
- [21:06]
Stephen
Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [21:10]
Hayden
And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [21:17]
Stephen
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcast.
- [21:24]
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- [21:59]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Is there another element to the anti vax movement? I'm not sure of it. Like, I've definitely heard of this autism connection, but it feels like it's growing here in the US do you see any other reason that people aren't vaccinating?
- [22:20]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah, so I think probably the Wakefield paper started it, but there's just a general distrust of institutions in the United States. I think we've seen that this administration is taking advantage of that fear. And like I said, there is a lot of skepticism that probably comes from the fact that scientists have siloed themselves and how they're explaining topics where it takes a long time to become an expert in something. And when you're an expert in something, you forget that other people are not when you're having those conversations.
- [22:55]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [22:55]
Olivia Zarella
And I try really, really hard to strategically communicate based on who I'm talking to, but I still fall into those, you know, years of using acronyms or years of, you know, just being having my head down in research papers and learning that I have to write things in a certain way to get accepted for publication. Or, you know, we have, we always have a, I guess a template that we have to adhere to in our professional standards no matter what kind of person or where we work. And a lot of the times those conversations just don't make sense to other people. And that can cause a lot of distrust, I think. And you know, there's a lot of other things that have happened in our country, such as, you know, the pharmaceutical skepticism. We have such a messed up healthcare system in this country and a profit based system of insurance companies, this whole idea of big pharma profits from keeping you sick or they're hiding information and they're doing these things to keep you sick because it's profit based. You know, those come from this idea of people are not gaining access to the health care that they need and they're not getting access to the information that empowers them to understand what's happening. And I don't know the answer on how to fix that. It's such a large issue. Do you feel.
- [24:12]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
What are your feelings around replacing people like you real scientists with people who are just advocates or. I'm thinking of RFK Jr. You know, like he's in a role that should be occupied by someone in your sphere. Why did we. Why do we what? I'm not even asking this, right? I'm just like, wait, what? How is this guy who is like a Kennedy kind of a loser, former drug addict, I guess, with a very torrid past, how is this person, the person in char. Like, why did so many people decide they'd rather hear about health from him?
- [24:57]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah, man, that's a big question. I mean, RFK Jr's been around for a long time, unfortunately. Yeah, he has been a disinformation king amongst a lot of influencers that are health influencers. And I think it's been a long process. But it also is just, frankly, he was in the right place at the right time when it came to being picked for HHS director. I mean, he made a deal with the devil, literally. Trump, about. I will outright say that I support you and drop out of my presidential campaign if you promise me a cabinet position. And his cabinet position in mind was HHS director because he had an agenda. Yes, he has always had an agenda. Now, I don't know exactly where that agenda came from. I don't know where and when in his life that he decided that he was going to be the one that causes mass distrust in vaccines in this country. But he's definitely been doing a pretty good job at it for a while.
- [25:59]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I thought you were going to say mass chaos and murder causing. Well, there's 1200 current reported cases of measles now.
- [26:09]
Olivia Zarella
Yes. And that's within two full months. And so I do have to agree with you, it is mass chaos and death and. But you know, I don't know, my scientific language just came out there, but I was being way too nice. So, I mean like, yeah, so as of March 5th, there is about 12, almost 1300 confirmed cases as of the CDC reporting, which is interesting. You know, that's an under reported number. Wait a minute, wait a minute.
- [26:35]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I'm picturing the pyramid scheme right now of measles so you've got, like, your first person at the top of the pyramid, and they recruit 10 other people. And they recruit 10 other people, and they recruit 10 other people. And what you told me about how quickly this can spread before there are symptoms or symptoms that are, like, strong enough to take you to the hospital. That pyramid's growing while we can't even see it.
- [26:58]
Olivia Zarella
Absolutely.
- [26:58]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
So we're weeks behind, no matter what number we're saying.
- [27:02]
Olivia Zarella
Yes, yes. And the CDC updates this was March 5th. They do it on Thursday, as of noon. And so, like, the data that I was looking at is probably, like, I don't know, a week or two old.
- [27:20]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
As of March 12, 2026, the number is 1362 confirmed cases.
- [27:27]
Olivia Zarella
I will say that the one thing I didn't say about measles that's really kind of something that people don't realize is that it's not just those situations of the flu and then the potential encephalitis within, I don't know, the first few weeks of actually obtaining and being infected with measles. What's crazy is that they call it a subacute sclerosing panencephal. So I'm going to call that sspe. Basically, all that you need to know about that is it's a rare but invariably fatal brain disease, and it's caused by measles. And in some patients, basically, the measles virus doesn't fully clear after they go through the flu and all the, you know, the flu, like, symptoms and then all the other things. And then, you know, they. They get better. These, especially their children, they're starting to feel better. And then measles will go dormant, in some cases in the brain tissue, and it silently mutates. Then years or decades later, it reemerges and begins destroying the brain. Yes, that's what's crazy. The average onset for somebody who's going to have SSPE is about seven to 10 years after the original infection. And that child has fully recovered or appeared to fully recover. The parents may never actually connect the two events. And this can cause personality changes, behavioral shifts, declining school performance, muscle jerks, seizures, progressive loss of motor control, dementia, coma, and then death a decade later. A decade later. Yep. So, like, those three deaths of measles that happened in 2025 is almost certainly an undercount of measles. True mortality. It's like one in 5,500 people will get SSPE. If it's an infant under 12 months that gets measles, that's one in 600. Ooh, that's bad. Yeah. And then if you get measles after getting the MMR vaccine, no individual has been found to have SSPE in the field. Really? Yes.
- [29:30]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
If you've gotten the vaccine that is
- [29:32]
Olivia Zarella
93% effective, or 97 if you have two dose. Yeah.
- [29:36]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Right. So if you get that and you still contract measles, you are in a class that doesn't experience these long term recurrence effects.
- [29:48]
Olivia Zarella
Mm. It protects against sspe.
- [29:51]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Wow.
- [29:51]
Olivia Zarella
So, yeah, I just wanted to make sure I said that, but because that's definitely one of the more scary things.
- [30:02]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Tell me more about RFK.
- [30:04]
Olivia Zarella
RFK Jr man, he has been the poster child for vaccine skepticism for a long time. He built a nonprofit around anti vaccine narratives called the Children's Health Defense chd. And this was really his primary identity for years. And CHD is responsible for a majority of vaccine misinformation on social media. In Samoa in 2018, there was two infants that died from the MMR vaccine. And this kind of spread this huge misinformation against the vaccine and was really kind of picked up and spread by the Children's Health Defense. And so in 2018, this happens and they find out that it's actually not because of the vaccine itself, but because two nurses incorrectly mixed the vaccine powder with an expired muscle relaxant instead of sterile water. Yes. So there was an error in the medical community in Samoa, in an organization there, and it led to the death of two infants. And on the surface it looked like it was just from the vaccine itself. And so anti vaccine groups like the Children's Health Defense, RFK Jr. He's a poster child of CHD, basically immediately weaponized these deaths on social media. And that was kind of the spark of what we call the Samoa case that led to basically a trajectory of things. So he lied and said that what happened in Samoa, which ended up being that they, from this situation, suspended their program for 10 months of vaccines against the WHO advice and vaccination. The rate dropped from 74% to about 31 to 34%.
- [31:51]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
On an island.
- [31:52]
Olivia Zarella
On an island. And 83 people ended up dying from a measles outbreak.
- [31:58]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yes.
- [31:59]
Olivia Zarella
During the outbreak, he attributed the deaths to the vaccine itself. He wrote a letter to the Samoans prime minister suggesting without evidence that the infections were due to the defective vaccine. And then he recommended vitamin A deficiency and using vitamin A as a measles preventative.
- [32:20]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
And then 83 people died.
- [32:22]
Olivia Zarella
Yes. And a majority of those were children under five.
- [32:26]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
And when asked about it, when Asked
- [32:29]
Olivia Zarella
about it by the Senate, he said that it had nothing to do with the vaccines. What happened?
- [32:34]
Interviewer Questioning RFK Jr.
Your role in the 2019 measles outbreak in Samoa. In July 2018, two children died immediately after receiving a measles vaccine that nurses had mistakenly mixed with a muscle relaxant. The nurses get charged with manslaughter, but vaccination rates go down. I asked you about this in my office. You told me flatly that your visit to Samoa had nothing to do with vaccinations. We now know that's not true. I have the documentation. You met with the Prime Minister. You talked about vaccinations. You met with an anti vaccine influencer who described the meeting as, quote, profoundly monumental for this movement. So what happens? Vaccinations go down, there's a measles outbreak and children start dying, but you double down. You didn't give up. Just four days after the Prime Minister declared a state of emergency, 16 people already dead, you sent a letter to him promoting the idea that the children had died not from measles, but from, quote, defective vaccine. You launched the idea that a measles vaccine caused these deaths. You are a very influential man. In fact, you are called the leader of the disinformation dozen multiple. UNICEF and who, the World Health Organization investigated this. They say the claims are false. It is not biologically possible what you claimed. And yet ultimately, more than 70 people died because they didn't get vaccines. So my question is, do you accept even a scintilla, just even a sliver of responsibility for the drop in vaccinations and the subsequent deaths of more than 70 people? Anything you do differently?
- [34:33]
Olivia Zarella
No, absolutely not.
- [34:36]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
This next clip is from a documentary on vaccines called Shot in the Army.
- [34:41]
Olivia Zarella
Do you have any idea of how many cases of measles were in Samoa between, say, 1986 and 2019? I have no idea. Right, okay, I've got that. 1986, one case of measles. 93, seven, 2005 zero. 2006 zero, 2009, zero. And in 2019, there were 5,707 measles cases. Do you know what happened in 2019? Yeah, I'm aware there was a measles outbreak, but I didn't have anything, you know, I had nothing to do with people not vaccinating in Samoa. I never told anybody not to vaccinate. I didn't, you know, go there for any reason to do with that. It was an interesting situation because the Guardian in AP directly found that there was emails that they obtained that contradicted this testimony and it was actually Kennedy saying that he was trying to raise awareness about the vaccines and that he was actively. He was actually actively working with the. Like I said, the Samoan prime minister during the period that the vaccine ended up getting suspended. He also, like, flew in on a helicopter and, like, met a bunch of people and, like, you know, used his celebrity status to basically say vaccines weren't good.
- [35:59]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Well, he has a very tenuous relationship with the truth.
- [36:02]
Olivia Zarella
Mm. That's a very nice way to say that.
- [36:06]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Okay. I mean, even about his own body.
- [36:09]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah.
- [36:09]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I mean, thinking of the brain worm.
- [36:12]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. So, oh, man. Okay, so sideline RFK junior Brain worm. So, oh, man. Okay, so like, decades ago, he was married to a woman named Mary, and she had. She was a mother of his children, and they were going through a contentious divorce because he basically was the king of extramarital affairs because he's so fucking sexy.
- [36:33]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I can't even. I mean, that.
- [36:34]
Olivia Zarella
Have you seen him in jeans? I mean, like. I mean, can you hold yourself back with those jeans?
- [36:43]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I want a man who feels like an old aristocratic couch and sounds like one, too. So he's a philanderer. He's a known philanderer.
- [37:00]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. And he's, like, writing it down in a journal, which is, like, psychopathic behavior. Like.
- [37:04]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [37:05]
Olivia Zarella
Who just, like, writes down all their escapades in a journal, and apparently he, like, leaves it out or something, and she finds it, and she's requesting alimony, and he ends up coming back to, I don't know, whatever trial that they're in, contentious trial, and saying that he. And his lawyer says that he has diminished capacity to pay alimony payments because he has what a doctor has diagnosed as a parasite in his brain. And there's a CT scan that basically shows a dark mark on his brain.
- [37:36]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
This is the first time he's claimed to have a brain worm in his divorce proceedings, where he doesn't want to
- [37:45]
Olivia Zarella
pay alimony, he doesn't want to pay alimony, and he finds, I guess, a doctor or two to say that he does, in fact, have a dark mark in his brain. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if he does, based on his behavior, have some sort of brain damage. But, you know, do we really know it's actually a parasite? There's, like, very.
- [38:03]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
We all could have one, but does my insurance pay for an mri? No. Yeah.
- [38:08]
Olivia Zarella
No. So bottom line, he's out here saying that he has a diminished capacity to pay for alimony. He also says he is higher than the normal population levels of mercury, which turns out to be true. He does have high levels of mercury, and that can be linked to to diminish capacity and, you know, fogginess and forgetfulness. But again, he's our HHS director, so he may not be qualified to pay alimony payments, but he's still our HHS director. We'll be right back.
- [38:41]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas, I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [38:49]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [38:53]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sander Anderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [39:01]
Stephen
That's right.
- [39:02]
Olivia Zarella
Hey.
- [39:02]
Stephen
Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [39:06]
Hayden
And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [39:14]
Stephen
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:22]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [39:50]
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- [40:02]
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- [40:06]
Olivia Zarella
Nothing is everything.
- [40:10]
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- [40:52]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [40:53]
Olivia Zarella
Meet Russell.
- [40:54]
BetterHelp Ad Voice
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- [40:54]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [40:57]
Hayden
he Needed to get the word out
- [40:58]
Olivia Zarella
to busy professionals looking to stay fit.
- [41:00]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [41:13]
Hayden
Sounds like a smart move.
- [41:14]
Olivia Zarella
Russell.
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Hayden
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- [41:22]
Olivia Zarella
Start today@go.acast.com advertise.
- [41:32]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Somewhere out there is a person, an anti vax person listening to this. And most often they are a parent. But parents are vaccinated. Yeah, for the most part, yeah, or
- [41:47]
Olivia Zarella
they wouldn't be here. I mean that comes down to this idea that you haven't seen the impacts. You decide things in your life based on perceived risk. Some people are more risky and some people are less risky. Some people just don't have a great idea of how to perceive risk. I think that just differs by person. But wearing a seatbelt versus not or jumping off a cliff versus not, those are a little bit different. But jumping off a cliff versus not jumping off a cliff, you could probably decide that it's probably pretty risky if you jump off the cliff. But for the perceived risk of vaccines, it's like most parents today haven't seen a child in the iron lung, which is an outcome was used with polio. They may never watch a baby die from measles. I really hope that they don't. I think the threat feels abstract and this is kind of this public health paradox that we deal with. It's all preventative and our country is just inherently not a preventative country. We're very reactionary.
- [42:50]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
But also the American exceptionalism is that all of our kids should be the smartest, most capable people and autism diagnosis is a fate worse than death.
- [43:04]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah, this idea that, that the outcome, the very, the non existent outcome, but even if there was an outcome from those false papers, it would be very small. Right. So the non existent outcome is somehow so much worse than the potential of your child having debilitating disease symptoms or outcomes. And I don't know exactly where that comes from, but I think it has to do with a mixture of the social engineering that these anti vaccines groups like the Child Health Defense has created and this idea that you know, you could have be sick with the flu and or have flu symptoms and you should be fine after a while and being sick is socially acceptable because you get to stay home. But having autism is like a social issue. Or challenge. It's not an issue, but you know what I mean? Like, they see it as a social issue, and so then their child is out there in the world acting awry or not within the social boundaries of the. Of our world. And that's a problem. That's somehow a bigger problem to them. I mean, I think that we're inherently afraid of being different and not being socially acceptable at all. And autism has been defined as being socially different or, you know, and it has been labeled as being different. And it. I. And I have to say, I'm not a parent, so this is based off of what I've learned through my experience in working. But there's so many different drivers of hesitancy, and I think it's this fear of just, you know, with autism specifically, first of all, we don't have, like, a clear, definitive reason or exposure that causes autism. Right. The research hasn't identified that. And there's. In my opinion, there's probably more than one. But, you know, being able to define something makes people feel more comfortable, because then they can say, oh, I'll avoid that.
- [44:57]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Right.
- [44:58]
Olivia Zarella
Or if I can, if I have the privilege to avoid it, I'll try that, because it'll reduce my risk of. Or my children's risk of having autism down the line.
- [45:05]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
I can't even believe that would be a choice to make against the other option, which is like, dying or killing other people. So can we talk about vaccine danger? Yeah.
- [45:18]
Olivia Zarella
So for, like. For MMR vaccine, I mean, it's always important to be honest about, like, you know, they found that there's almost zero chance that you're gonna get actual encephalitis from the vaccine. I'm talking, like, less. It's approximately less than in a million people that are vaccinated, like, one in a million people that are vaccinated, and that's less than 1. That the risk is of getting potentially encephalitis from the vaccine itself, whereas the risk with measles is one in a thousand for encephalitis, for that brain swelling,
- [45:52]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
we have a hard time understanding big numbers.
- [45:56]
Olivia Zarella
Yes.
- [46:02]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
What else do you want to talk about?
- [46:04]
Olivia Zarella
I don't know, Jane. I hope that I was helpful.
- [46:07]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Really helpful. What other diseases are you thinking?
- [46:10]
Olivia Zarella
Thinking about what's next? I worry about airborne diseases. I think measles is a good example. I think Covid is a good example. I worry about the diseases that requires individual behavior changes, like mask use to prevent spread and then also vaccination, as we've talked about, to Prevent, spread. I do worry about flu. I mean, people in public health just inevitably worry about flu. I worry about, you know, every 10 years or so, we tend to have what we call an antigen shift situation, which means that there is an animal that has the flu genetically that is infected with the flu, and it's. It basically genetically shifts so much that it's able to be transmitted to a human. And we have that crossover and that transmission. And when that occurs, we tend to have a flu pandemic. It's about every 10 years. We tend to see it. We're definitely overdue for that. If you can remember, swine flu, that was a good one or a recent one to relate to, not a good one, avian flu. And then avian flu is one for sure. And I am concerned about avian. I'm concerned about our ability to basically prepare for avian flu. Bringing it all back to RFK Jr. One thing that he did a fantastic job at was basically hiding the concern around avian flu last year. So with all of the massive reduction in forces that have occurred, so all of the federal agencies that were kind of cleaned out by Doge at hhs, including the cdc, that included getting rid of the people that man all those surveillance systems and talk with the state and local public health agencies across the country and basically collate and bring all this data together and combine the data to say, hey, we might have an outbreak here, or we're seeing a spike here and being able to capture where avian flu is an issue. And we knew avian flu was an issue last year. If you can remember, your eggs were really expensive. And instead of investing in developing an avian flu vaccine and putting forth and working with the FDA and any of the vaccine companies, those trials were ended and stifled, and money was pulled away from that, as well as pulling away from any kind of process that's necessary to do mass expansion and distribution of a vaccine. So that's a different department, that's a different situation through the cdc. And then also working with any kind of like the other federal agencies like USDA and fda that have to kind of build up those processes. That's, you know, we need. If a vaccine needs to be made fast, you need to have the ability to do so by partnering with factories and getting the resources and the materials you need to make a mass amount and then also distributing those across the country.
- [49:16]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Right.
- [49:16]
Olivia Zarella
And they kind of closed down any modeling efforts that would allow them to prepare to do so. And that was all through rfk. And so we don't really talk about avian flu right now. And I. I don't know where that stands. And that concerns me.
- [49:31]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Yeah. What concerns me, too. I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. Right. Like, it's. It's something that I know about as a layperson.
- [49:39]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:41]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
With a vaccinated child, you know, avian
- [49:44]
Olivia Zarella
flu is scary because if you get avian flu, your mortality rate is 45%.
- [49:48]
BetterHelp Ad Voice
What?
- [49:49]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah.
- [49:50]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
45.
- [49:51]
Olivia Zarella
Yes. The average mortality rate with avian flu is 45%. It is not your average flu.
- [50:00]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Olivia.
- [50:01]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. You might have to have a whole episode about avian flu.
- [50:04]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Thanks for coming on the show.
- [50:06]
Olivia Zarella
You're like, I don't want to hear anymore.
- [50:08]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Wap, wap, wap, wap, wah. I see a difference lately between people who are loudly advocating for the greater good and people who are loudly advocating for individuals, individual freedoms. Do you have any thoughts around that in terms of how disease spreads and stuff? Like, don't we all need to be thinking about each other?
- [50:48]
Olivia Zarella
Yeah. I mean, with diseases, thinking about each other is important for thinking about yourself. And that kind of goes against that American individualism that we talked about, because truly protecting yourself protects people, which then protects you in the future. And, you know, when other people protect themselves and get vaccinated, it also protects you if you're not ready to get vaccinated or can't. And I. I don't. It just. I think it's an empathy thing, truly. But I'm sure people will come for me for saying that. So the only reason I continue to do what I do is because I can't. Not, like I truly can't sleep if I'm not in some sort of role that's helping people, which sounds so cliche, but I just am written up that way, and that's who I am. And it's kind of a curse in itself. And so that's why I do what I do is because I don't think I could sleep. I mean, I don't sleep anyways, but you know what I mean. Foreign.
- [52:01]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [52:09]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [52:13]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [52:22]
Stephen
That's right.
- [52:22]
BetterHelp Ad Voice
Hey.
- [52:23]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Hey.
- [52:23]
Stephen
So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [52:27]
Hayden
And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [52:34]
Stephen
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:43]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [53:08]
Skyrizi Ad Warning Voice
After two starter doses, don't use if allergic to Skyrizi. Serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor about any flu like symptoms or vaccines.
- [53:22]
Skyrizi Ad Voice
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- [53:43]
Olivia Zarella
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.
- [53:47]
Hayden
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [53:51]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
Michael Gargiulo stalked and slaughtered his female neighbors in LA in the 2000s until one survived.
- [53:58]
Hayden
She painted a picture that you could never imagine.
- [54:02]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
In a First on Mind of a Monster, we dive into a case that's still active. Did Michael's murderous rampage start in the 1990s when he was just 17?
- [54:11]
Olivia Zarella
His impulsivity and his rage was starting
- [54:15]
Podcast Host (Interviewer)
to peak around that age. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Hollywood Ripper wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:22]
Olivia Zarella
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.