To Kid Or Not to Kid

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream – "To Kid or Not to Kid" (May 29, 2026)

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Overview of the Episode

This episode marks the return of "The Dream," now reimagined as a weekly interview show. Host Jane Marie welcomes married couple Maris Kreizman (writer and host of "Maris Review") and Josh Gondelman (comedian, writer, and broadcaster), to discuss the choice to be “DINKs” (Dual Income, No Kids) and how that decision shapes their relationship, happiness, careers—and their pursuit of the “American Dream.” The conversation delves into societal expectations, personal fulfillment, family pressure, and what life can look like when opting out of parenthood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Guest Introductions & the Premise of "Living the Dream"

• [01:10] Jane Marie frames the episode as an exploration of a "version of the dream"—a life without children, still centered around fulfillment, partnership, and self-determined happiness.
• Maris and Josh introduce themselves and their work, highlighting creative careers and their beloved pug, Maggie.

2. Meeting & Relationship Beginnings

• [05:01] The story of how Maris and Josh met via a friend's party for Maris' Tumblr blog is shared, evoking a sense of organic, easy compatibility.
  • Josh: “It was really lovely. I always just felt like, oh, this is great. And it’s always more fun when Maris is around.” [06:26]
  • Jane Marie: “I love the kind of romances where you meet and then you just kind of never stop hanging out.” [06:19]

3. Conversations About Children

• [07:48] Maris made her stance on not wanting children clear when Josh proposed.
  • Maris: “When Josh asked me to marry him, I made sure that he understood that I didn’t want to have kids.” [07:48]
  • Josh: “That was the biggest conversation that we had—was that night... It’s not something that feels pressing or missing from my life. It’s not like the puzzle piece that completes the picture of, like, a happy and thriving life and relationship.” [08:12]

4. The Internal Journey to Choosing Not to Have Kids

• [09:28] Maris shares that even once stability arrived in her life, the urge to have a baby didn’t materialize; she describes it as a "revolutionary" choice.
• Maris: “Sometimes I still can’t believe how revolutionary this feels—that I’ve chosen something so not normal.” [09:28]
• Josh talks about respect for those who want kids, but how it’s never been a core need for him.

5. Health & Practical Barriers

• [10:53] Maris discusses having type 1 diabetes and how media (like "Steel Magnolias") shaped her perception of pregnancy risk.
• [11:23] Josh recounts their engagement conversation: “You saying, like, this would just be so hazardous to my body… And I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. We can always seek out a baby if we want a baby down the line.” [11:23]

6. Family and Societal Pressure

• [12:27] Maris recounts an endocrinologist’s probing—“But what if he changes his mind?”—reflecting the deep-rooted expectation of parenthood for women.
• Jane Marie notes, “If, like, any fundamental principle of our marriage would be to change unexpectedly, that would, I think, be destabilizing to the both of us.” [13:13]
• Both describe families of origin (Maris has brothers with kids; Josh an only brother) and minimal pressure from relatives.

7. Social Circle & Observing Parenthood

• [15:29] Friends’ new babies are a source of joy—for a few hours at a time.
  • Maris: “We enjoy our couple of hours with [baby Lulu]…and then we go home satisfied.” [15:46]
  • Josh compares it to “beautiful music—you’re moved by it, but you don’t want to play the bassoon.” [16:34]

8. The Perks and Freedoms of a Childless Lifestyle

• [19:56] Jane Marie asks what the absence of kids enables.
  • Josh and Maris point to spontaneity, travel, risk-taking in creative careers, and the financial and emotional flexibility of their life:
  • Josh: “We don't have to save to put a kid through college... there's two mouths to feed and we're both working towards feeding them—and plus a pug mouth…” [20:27]
  • Maris: “When we got married, I went freelance for the first time… That felt like freedom for sure.” [21:11]

9. Lessons Learned from Previous Relationships

• [24:04] Both reflect on having previously dated “dramatic” or “intense” people, and learning that relationships don't have to be fraught to count as “work.”
  • Maris: “It was not until I met Josh where I felt like, oh, feeling like you’re gonna cry all the time is actually bad.” [25:18]
  • Josh: “Work doesn’t mean hard. Work means you care… But it doesn’t mean things have to be fraught, difficult.” [27:03]
• They also attribute their relationship’s strength to timing and busy, contented lives that overlap rather than try to “complete” one another.

10. Creative Careers & Parenting Realities

• Both note that having kids would shift their risk calculus, stifle professional moves, and add pressure to monetize creative work over passion.
  • Josh: “I am pretty, like, career motivated…The creative exploration…It would put a pressure on the creative work that would make it be like, why don’t I just get a job that you just show up and then they give you money.” [29:54]

11. On Legacy, Regret & Social Narratives

• [39:38] Legacy is not a driving force for either:
  • Josh: “I have probably less appetite for legacy than most people. I have like a pretty firm idea of, like, when I’m dead, whatever happens after that regarding me does not matter…” [39:38]
  • Maris jokes about passing down "IKEA furniture" rather than a homestead. [40:13]

12. Jealousies, Trade-offs, and Adult Choices

• [42:23] Maris admits to a twinge of envy over milestones (school plays, etc.), but both note their intense anxiety and sensitivity could make parenthood overwhelming.
  • Josh: “I’d have so much fun and fear attached…Taking the lid off how much love you can have in your life in that way feels like a Pandora’s box of terror.” [43:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Possessed children is such a good way to put that.” — Josh Gondelman, on the language of parenthood [04:02]
• “Sometimes I still can’t believe how revolutionary this feels—that I’ve chosen something so not normal.” — Maris Kreizman [09:28]
• “But what if he changes his mind?” — Maris’ endocrinologist’s reaction [12:53]
• “Work doesn’t mean hard. Work means, like, you care about the other person and you take them into account.” — Josh Gondelman [27:03]
• “I can nap whenever I want. That’s a huge thing.” — Maris Kreizman, on child-free perks [41:01]
• “Getting a pet… people think… is training wheels for a baby. And we got the dog and were like, this is plenty. We’re full.” — Josh Gondelman [41:06]
• “It’s not like I see people with kids and go, like, every moment of this looks like agony. It’s just on balance, it just feels like… I have so much love and joy in my life and I have like a selfishness about the other stuff that I just am like, I don’t want to give this up.” — Josh Gondelman [43:47]

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Significant Timestamps

• 01:10 – Jane Marie sets the theme; “The American Dream” reimagined through childlessness
• 05:01 – How Maris and Josh met
• 07:48 – The pivotal conversation: marriage proposal and the no-kids agreement
• 10:53 – Maris describes her health (diabetes) and the fear-mongering of “Steel Magnolias”
• 19:56 – The upsides of spontaneity, creative risks, and going freelance
• 24:04 – Past relationships, peace vs. drama, and learning “work” isn’t “hard”
• 29:54 – The impact of having kids on creative ambition and job choices
• 39:38 – The “legacy” discussion and inheritance jokes
• 41:06 – Reflections on having a dog as “enough” caregiving
• 42:23 – Acknowledging small envies of parent milestones and overwhelming anxieties

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Tone & Closing Takeaways

The conversation is candid, humorous, and affectionate, often self-deprecating. Josh and Maris are honest about what they gain by not having children (freedom, creativity, less anxiety), what they sometimes miss (rare milestone moments), and the fact that their decision resists cultural assumptions about fulfillment and “the dream.” Their story opens up space for listeners contemplating similar choices and subverts the American Dream narrative with personal contentment and partnership as the measure of success.

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For more stories or to share yours, listeners are encouraged to contact The Dream's tip line at 323-248-1488.

Transcript

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[Maris Kreizman]

I'm Maris Kreizman and yeah, I'm Josh

[Josh Gondelman]

Gondelman and we are married to each other.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yes,

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the Dream. The name of the show is Kind of a Joke because the idea of living the dream is kind of a joke. And most of the time we could call our program the Nightmare, but not today. Today's guests are friends of mine who are living a version of the dream that I think a lot of us find enviable and fascinating. They made a very simple choice with radical consequences in terms of their personal happiness and well being. Tell me a little more about you, like what do you do, where are you? Et cetera.

[Maris Kreizman]

I have a book out now called I Want to Burn this Place Down. It's an essay collection about all of the relatable. Yes. I mean, look around, right? And I have a newsletter called the Maris Review and you can find it just by going to marischriseman.com Great.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And oh, that's our hot pug, Maggie, who's scratching on the carpet a little bit, which is not a usual Maggie proclivity. I'm Josh and I am a writer and comedian. I've worked in television on late night shows like Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Desus and Marrow. I've written a book. I do a lot of standup. I have a new special out called Positive Reinforcement and I also write a newsletter. But Writer, Comedian I think is the headline of what I do. Pug, dad, pug mom, Celtics fan. Like just Boston expat.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, Josh left out one thing. For all of you avid public radio listeners, Josh's voice may sound familiar. He's one of the regular guests on. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Yeah, we're jealous, Josh. But wait, wait, there's more. I wanted to invite you both on because I think you are living a dream, at least a dream I once had of being a dink, which I thought was like a rude thing when my mom would say it when we were growing up. But now I'm like, oh, she was just jealous. Living in a dual income, no kids household is what that stands for. And obviously this season we're branching out and doing different things outside of pyramid schemes and wellness and such and just exploring different corners of the American dream and what that's supposed to look like. And so I wanted to talk to you about what life is like as a married couple who've been together for a while and don't have nor seem to be itching to possess children.

[Josh Gondelman]

Possessed children is such a good way to put that.

[Maris Kreizman]

Well, you.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, having them, like, implies that someone's body gets like, ripped apart. But I feel like getting them or possessing them kind of. Yeah, acquiring a child is kind of what everyone does whether or not their body is part of that equation. So would you say that that's a correct assessment? Do you think that's a correct assessment of where you're at?

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, I think that's a great description. We have been married for eight years

[Maris Kreizman]

and together for 11.

[Josh Gondelman]

And we don't possess any children and we don't have any, you know, designs on acquiring any.

[Maris Kreizman]

Our dog is very lucky.

[Josh Gondelman]

She has a lot of attention paid to her. So, like, if she was hoping to get up to no good, it would be difficult for her because we focus all our parental energy on that.

[Jane Marie]

Well, good for Maggie. How did you meet?

[Maris Kreizman]

We had a mutual friend who brought Josh to a party I was throwing.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's an extremely 2014 set of circumstances, which is a friend that we both just met brought me to a party that Maris had thrown to celebrate the five year anniversary of her very popular Tumblr blog.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, what?

[Maris Kreizman]

Yep.

[Jane Marie]

First of all, Maris, good for you. You are just living it all over the place.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, we just started dating right away. We got along right away at the party and like went on our first date maybe three days later and then just like continued to date through a wedding and living together and moving apartments

[Maris Kreizman]

and yeah, yeah, we moved in together. We waited to get married, but we moved in together pretty quickly.

[Josh Gondelman]

Well, it was all like, to me, it felt like pretty structured at like one year marks where like we moved in together right around a year of dating, like 13 months maybe. We got engaged a year after that on like our anniversary and then got married just Over a year after that. So it all, you know, none of it. We were together for three years when we got married, but we knew at two years that we were going to get married.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

I love the kind of romances where you meet and then you just kind of never stop hanging out.

[Maris Kreizman]

Mm.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, it was.

[Maris Kreizman]

That's how it was.

[Josh Gondelman]

It was really lovely. Like, it just. I don't know, I always just felt like, oh, this is great. And it's always more fun when Maris is around.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, you still feel that way, too?

[Josh Gondelman]

She patted my hand twice. I do, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Good, good.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's pretty lovely. I mean, the comedian Phil Hanley has this joke that I always think about where he says. And I think he's recorded this and put on specials years ago. So I don't feel bad because it is such a clarifying sentiment that I feel like people should hear it of. Like, they say, when you meet the right person, you know right away. How come when it's the wrong person, it takes a year and a half?

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

I'm in the middle of watching the New Love island, and I feel that at watching everybody. I'm like, it should not be this hard. Like, what is the amount of work you're putting into this complete stranger? Not just, like, to get them to like you, but to even be able to tolerate them.

[Josh Gondelman]

Right.

[Maris Kreizman]

My mom always used to say, when you meet the right person, it'll be easy. And I was just like, stop lying, Mom. That's not a thing.

[Jane Marie]

Did you have conversations early on? So it sounds like you moved in after a year, you got engaged after two, and then kind of the rest is history. Right. Did you have conversations about what your togetherness would look like, what your relationship would look like? Kind of in the mid to long run?

[Maris Kreizman]

When Josh asked me to marry him, I made sure that he understood that I didn't want to have kids.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. That was, like, the biggest conversation that we had was. Was that night and I.

[Jane Marie]

That night. The first night.

[Josh Gondelman]

No, no, no. When we got engaged.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Josh Gondelman]

We talked about it, like, in, like, real. In real sincerity. I think that was, like, the kind of moment of like, oh, this isn't. At the very least, if we do end up acquiring a child, we're going third party. It'll be down the line. And. Yeah, that's. I think that's. That was established, like, certainty in certainty when we got engaged, but I think we'd talked about it before. We must have, like, neither of us. I think we both are. I remember both of our stances like, up until that point being, like, I. You know, I'm not in a rush to do it. It's not something that feels pressing or missing from my life. It's not like the puzzle piece that completes the picture of, like, a happy and thriving life and relationship.

[Maris Kreizman]

And I had always. I had always had bad luck in love and so always thought, like, I can't even consider this. Like, I can barely afford my studio apartment. What am I gonna do? And then when Josh and I got into a stable relationship, I realized that I still didn't feel compelled.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, that is interesting. Say more about that. Like you had you been thinking up until that point, like.

[Maris Kreizman]

Well, when the circumstances are right. Yeah. And, like, there's. I never, when I was a kid, thought I wasn't gonna have kids. Like, I was gonna do every single thing regular people did, and regular people have kids, and so I wasn't gonna deny myself of that. And sometimes I still can't believe how revolutionary this feels. Mm. That I've chosen something so not normal.

[Jane Marie]

Well, you know what's funny is that doing the normal things that normal people do is sort of my. Well, I always put it, like, I want the breadth of the human experience, but I did not grow up being, like, baby hungry. I've never had that itch. Have you ever had that at any point in your life, Maris, to, like, put a baby inside of your body?

[Maris Kreizman]

I have had the itch to hold babies and rock babies and stuff, but, no, not a baby inside my body. No.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I've also specifically, like, I used to work with little kids. I love babies and kids, but I've specifically always been, like, mortified by the idea of making someone grow a baby inside them. It just felt like such a cruel thing to do to another person's human body.

[Maris Kreizman]

I also want to mention that I have type 1 diabetes, and I know plenty of type 1 diabetics who've had very successful pregnancies. But I grew up in the age of Steel Magnolias, where Julia Roberts was told that she could not have a baby or else she would die. And what happens? She dies.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Right.

[Maris Kreizman]

Sorry. Spoiler alert.

[Jane Marie]

Spoiler alert from the 80s, guys.

[Josh Gondelman]

Well, this was also. I remember that being, like, a really big part of our conversation in Philadelphia when we got engaged. You saying, like, this would just be so hazardous to my body, and I don't think it's anything that I want to take on necessarily. And I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. We can always seek out a baby if we want a baby down the line. And, you know, nine years later, it hasn't come up that we're like, God, we gotta find a baby.

[Maris Kreizman]

We just found a baby.

[Jane Marie]

Right?

[Maris Kreizman]

Her name's Maggie, and she's a pug.

[Josh Gondelman]

And she's a pug.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah. I have to say, my mom told me to just get a dog, so.

[Jane Marie]

Ouch. Mom.

[Maris Kreizman]

I know, but she was right.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I think, like, I don't. I never felt, like, a lot of pressure from my parents. Like, I think we had, like, a brief talk about it at one point, and I know. I think they would really. I think they make great grandparents. I think they're great parents and. But it's. Yeah, I think, you know, I really offloaded that pressure to my sister, who also does not currently have children.

[Maris Kreizman]

So here's. Here's the thing that I remember most. I went to my endocrinologist, and she knew that I was getting married, and she. So she said, are you going to have babies? And I said, I don't. I don't think so. And she, more than anyone, should know, like, what's involved in type 1 diabetes and pregnancy. And she said, well, does he know? And I said, yeah, of course he knows. We've discussed this. And she says, but what if he

[Jane Marie]

changes his mind and you're like, do you know something? I don't know.

[Maris Kreizman]

I guess that's a familiar trope.

[Jane Marie]

But, I mean, really, what is the answer? Like, well, then he can just go have a baby elsewhere. You know, like, we'll get divorced for one of the hundred reasons people get divorced.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. Right. I think that's a. That's like, a weird thing to propose as. Like, I don't know. We've. We've talked about it. We've. We have an. An understanding and a loving marriage. And if, like, any fundamental principle of our marriage would be to change unexpectedly, that would, I think, be destabilizing to the both of us.

[Jane Marie]

Right. I mean, that is. That is. Yeah. Where I was gonna go next is like, well, people change things. Circumstances change. Life happens to you. And the idea that you're never going to be a different person within, like, a lifelong relationship is weird to me.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. I think. I think ideally. And ideally. Right. A marriage can, like, withstand a capacity for change, and I think that's, like, a really beautiful thing. And I. And I. But I don't think, you know, the people I've known who have gotten divorced because there have been new circumstances or just growing apart after a long time, it's like I don't look at them and be like, oh, those failures who couldn't stay static or couldn't, like, absorb another person's dynamism, you know, I think that that's, like, part of what life is. And, like, you want both people to be happy in the long term. And I think we. We are. Like, it's. You know, we. We're very long term compatible is like the. What it feels like now and what the hope is.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Do you. Did you both come from big families?

[Maris Kreizman]

I have two older brothers and they both have kids, so a lot of pressure was taken off from me, even. Even with that.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I'm the older brother, and I have one younger sister. And I think it is kind of like the. The expectation, I think, would be on me to go first.

[Jane Marie]

How old are you guys? I forget.

[Maris Kreizman]

I'm 46.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I'm 40.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. So, Maris, you and I are the same age. I mean, I'm 47. Not to brag, but I'm close.

[Josh Gondelman]

She made it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. There's still plenty of time. I mean, I live in LA where people have kids in their 60s, so, you know, there's lots of time. Are there people around you, close to you, either in proximity or emotionally, who have had babies recently?

[Maris Kreizman]

Yes.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, lots.

[Jane Marie]

And what are your thoughts? I imagine you have this, like, pillow talk after you visit them. The baby going, like, we just get to go to sleep tonight. We're not gonna be up nursing all night like they are.

[Maris Kreizman]

I think that's. We hang out with baby Lulu, and she is charming and delightful, and we enjoy our couple of hours with her.

[Josh Gondelman]

Totally.

[Maris Kreizman]

And then we go home satisfied.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. That is. A couple of hours usually is enough baby in the for us, but, like, I don't know. I think. I also do think it's really beautiful to see friends or family members who, like, really wanted this as part of their life, to feel really happy and engaged and like, just this, like, love. Like a new love in their life in this way. I think that's really special to observe. And I'm always really, like, blown away by that joy when I see it in other people.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, but it doesn't overcome you?

[Josh Gondelman]

No, not to the point of, like, wanting it for myself, but it's like overcoming, like. Like beautiful music is overcoming where I'm not like, I gotta play the bassoon, but I'm like, wow. It's amazing that this feeling exists and you can. You can see and feel it.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

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[Jane Marie]

What are the things that you are doing in life or could do later that like probably Wouldn't be possible if you had a small person in your home. Do you guys have a vacation spot that you like to go to? Are you spontaneous? Are you doing. I'm imagining just this carefree coupledom.

[Josh Gondelman]

I think a real freedom that we have is. It's little stuff. I would say we're pretty spontaneous day to day though, where it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful night, let's just go and the two of us will have dinner and a couple drinks and we'll take a walk and like, these are all things that like people can do with kids. But, you know, I do think there's a little more flexibility and there's also a little more, like, I think there's a little more professional risk that we can absorb because.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God. I was just gonna ask.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yes, that's the big one.

[Maris Kreizman]

That's a good point.

[Josh Gondelman]

Because I do think, you know, we travel a bunch and I travel a lot, which I think would be a lot harder for. It would be a lot harder to do that kind of professional travel that I do if, and that Maris has coming up for her book tour. If, if we had to like think about child care as well, you know, but it definitely, there's like a level of, oh, we don't have to save to put a kid through college. We don't have to buy, you know, supplies for a kid. Like, it's just kind of like there's, there's two mouths to feed and we're both working towards feeding them and plus a pug mouth. But, you know, she's not a big eater.

[Jane Marie]

But you can be pickier in how you find the money to feed your mouths.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yes, 100%. When we got married, I went freelance for the first time. Like, I had never had the freedom to do that. And I started making much less money than I had been making in my regular day to day jobs. And it was. That felt like freedom for sure. I had always done a little writing on the side, but until I married Josh and went on his health insurance, I couldn't just be a writer. And that is what that allowed me to do.

[Josh Gondelman]

And we've, I think we've both had periods of like more and less work in creative fields over the past eight years. Like, it kind of ebbs and flows and I think like, like we haven't really come up against a terrible dry spell or a terrible challenge, you know. Oh no. Neither of us fortunately have had like a medical emergency that has caused extra finance that we're like, oh, even if we start earning and building back up savings again, we still have to like just tread water. So much harder to like pay for school and to. If we want to go out for three hours, we have to get child care or, you know, I think we both have. There are many evenings where we're both doing either work events or seeing friends separately or seeing friends together. And I think we're like pretty bustling in terms of like social life and like the blend of social and work life as well. Right. Like we're, you know, a lot of nights it's like, oh, I'll go out and do a show, but I don't have to like come home to relieve the babysitter. So I can just like stay out and hang out with friends for a couple hours and you can be in bed and relaxed and not worried and like that kind of stuff. Like it's just, oh my God.

[Jane Marie]

Relaxed and not worried.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Josh Gondelman]

I mean like as not to put you on blast, but like your best approximation, Maris of relax to not worry.

[Maris Kreizman]

Thank you.

[Josh Gondelman]

Of course.

[Jane Marie]

What did you learn in previous relationships that brought you to be. So you guys are like my ideal couple in that you're both industrious and seem to like each other a lot and aren't. When I said a relax and not worry just now, of course I was talking about like when I feel worried about my daughter. But I'm also, I've also been in a string of relationships where I'm worried about them or like, you know, oh, am I staying out too late? Am I going to get in trouble? Like, it seems like you guys are solid in that arena. Did you learn anything in your past relationships that led you to be like this compatible, I guess, or understanding of one another's.

[Maris Kreizman]

You know, from my perspective, we both had something similar in that we had dated people who. What is the correct way to put this?

[Josh Gondelman]

I don't know what you're gonna say. So I don't. I can't be of any help yet.

[Maris Kreizman]

Were a lot, like had a lot

[Jane Marie]

of people who were a lot say

[Maris Kreizman]

more and we were the kind of rocks.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, interesting. Because I also. I feel the opposite about some of my previous relationships.

[Maris Kreizman]

Well, see,

[Josh Gondelman]

I want to hear what you have to say and then I'd like to.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah, it sort of goes back to again, what my mom would say, like, find some nice lawyer. You don't need a creative person. You just like someone who you could have a life with. And that always sounded so disgusting to me. And I wanted drama and I wanted emotion. And it was not until I met Josh where I felt like, oh, feeling like you're gonna cry all the time is actually bad.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah. Maris, did you have to do work on that, though, for yourself? Like, to be chill enough to, you know, to be in this? Like, did you?

[Maris Kreizman]

No. I wrote a piece 10 years ago about how I met Josh because I got lucky. Not because I worked on myself, not because I really changed anything about my approach. It's just like I found him and we clicked and we had similar attitudes about life. And suddenly this is what I wanted too. I was just ready to not have so much angst in my life.

[Jane Marie]

You were what, 30?

[Maris Kreizman]

35.

[Jane Marie]

35. Yeah. That's about the time you want it to. All the bullshit to stop. Josh, what about you?

[Josh Gondelman]

I think, you know, I think I understand what you're talking about. Yeah, I think in the. A long time ago, I had dated people that were like, very intense and there was like a tempestuousness to things at times. And I definitely had that maxim in my head of like, relationships are work and they're, they're hard. And I, I think, like, work doesn't mean hard. Like, work means, like, you care about the other person and you take them into account and you, you know, you're invested in their happiness and they're not just like riding sidecar on your journey. But it doesn't mean, like, things have to be fraught, difficult and. Right. Fraught is a great word for it. But then after that, or even around that, I think I dated a number of people who had kind of the opposite thing where I felt like I was the chaos element in the relationship.

[Maris Kreizman]

Fascinating.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. Well, I mean, just because, like, I work nights, I travel on weekends, I like, miss milestones. I miss. And I was, until we met, I was in like a real struggle and strain place in my career where I was like, is this going to happen? Like, am I going to have this, this career that I'm kind of dreaming of, come together in a way that feels like, am I going to hit the benchmarks where I'm like, it's financially sustainable, it's like emotionally less grueling. And I, right before we met was when I got my first, like full time job in tv. And so like, it wasn't, it wasn't internal work as much as like the external thing I was looking for that I was like really scrambling for and not maybe not being the best possible partner to other people I've dated that resolved itself enough that I was like, oh, I can, like, Exhale. And I was. I think, you know, I think just circum by circumstance, I was ready to be a much more present partner. But I also think so much of it is that, like, Maris and I both, when we met, had, like, very busy, separate lives. And so, like, if I was out at night, it was like, well, she is also out at night, and like, maybe we meet up after or maybe we see each other tomorrow. And that was like a really, you know, I think, like, having a life that is cozy and a relationship that is cozy and reciprocal and like, loving without being like the kind of picket fence domesticity was something that was really. Is like, really a beautiful, wonderful feature of my life and our relationship together.

[Jane Marie]

Well, it sounds like that alchemy is working and that maybe adding a child would push the limits.

[Maris Kreizman]

And I could see. I mean, I could see for sure, especially when Josh was really on tour. I would imagine that I would do more of the care, even though that is not something that Josh would feel right about.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I am very maternal by nature.

[Maris Kreizman]

I would say you are.

[Josh Gondelman]

I think I'd make a pretty good mom.

[Maris Kreizman]

Probably better.

[Jane Marie]

But you may not even be encouraged to go on tour yourself, Maris.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah, I mean, and that's. That's true because that's.

[Jane Marie]

It does. It does land with us, you know, the moms, a lot of times.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And I. And I think, like, I am. And this is maybe a selfish thing to say, but, like, I am pretty, like, career motivated. And like, not just career, but, like, I like the. The creative exploration. You know what I mean? It's not just like, oh, I'm gonna die at my desk like an auto executive in the 80s. It's just like, oh, this is like, fun and exciting to get to do. And I have these opportunities really, like. And like, often it's really fun for. For Maris to come. And sometimes it's not because I'm going to a place that she doesn't care to get up at 6am to get on a plane to go to. And. And so, like, that kind of stuff, like, go. Taking that from being like, this is fun. It's how I earn a living. I'll get another writing gig down the line, and that will, like, replenish some savings and give us a little bit of a cushion goes from, oh, this is like, really fun and exciting. And I can be creative too. Like, fuck, I get to sell a TV show. So I get to think of some idea that some idiot executive will buy. And, like, you know, I think it would put a pressure on the creative work that would make it be like, well, why don't I just get a job that you just show up and then they give you money, and then you show up the next day and they give you a little more money.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Maris Kreizman]

Same.

[Jane Marie]

All the while. All the while trying to create a person who doesn't have that problem.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And it's. You know, I. I taught little kids for years, and. And that was my.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, say more. What? When? Sorry.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, no, that's okay. I taught pre K for four years after college, and I tutored that period. And then another couple of years to another two and a half years after.

[Jane Marie]

I. I'm so jealous. I love that age.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, it's great. It was so fun. It's really fun. We have, like, little. Our upstairs neighbors have little kids, and they're just, like, so cute and precious and, like, I think both of us, like, we had. I think this stopped, but we had a neighbor at one point who whistled when they went up and down the stairs. And it drove me. It drove Maris up a wall. But we have these two little kids that are, like, kind of up and down the stairs, you know, going to school, going on errands. Yes. Singing really loud at 8am and, like, it's just so cute. And I think we both feel that way. And so I worked with little kids. Almost all my work experience before graduation was, like, an assistant at summer programs and camps and stuff. So that was, like, a big part of it. But it just. It honestly was like, oh, I bet. Comedy writing and performance at the level I can get to a level where that is a more sustainable career because it's like, I'm never gonna make enough money on my own to, like, own a home or to retire doing this job. So that is, like, a weird feeling where, like, oh, I'm in entertainment industry for the stability.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I think. And I think a child of our own would also, like, tip that balance back out of whack. For sure.

[Maris Kreizman]

For sure.

[Josh Gondelman]

My dad, when I was, like, I think probably, like, early 20s, he was a. He was just retiring. He worked as a glazer for, like, 40 years. So he did, like, glass storefronts, largely, like, big. He worked in construction with glass. And he was like. He was doing, like, oh, there's a new Barnes and Noble, so he's installing the windows. So it was like a real. A very skilled, super. Like, he was really good at it, worked really hard at it. He was like, I don't know what you're gonna do, but, like, don't do this. He's like, it has been so hard on my body. And, like, you know, I don't think he has regrets. Like, he was really good at his job and I think really enjoyed much of the work, you know, not necessarily being outside in Boston.

[Jane Marie]

Well, personal regrets and our wishes for our children get mixed up.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yes. That's such a great. That's such a great way to put it. Because I don't think he was like, I personally regret this, but I think he was like, I think there's a life for you without the specific strains that I have taken on.

[Jane Marie]

Well, that's a good segue into another point I wanted to bring up, which is that I get in trouble for saying that if I were so audience, just so you know, I have the perfect child. She's amazing and perfect. And so, like, don't even. Don't even bother having another one because it's already done.

[Josh Gondelman]

Which is what you would have told your mom, too.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Seriously. Nailed it. Clothing down shop.

[Josh Gondelman]

Got it in one.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. But I do get in trouble for saying, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't. And I say this as I'm looking at a picture of my perfect daughter on the wall in my office, but I mostly say that to people without children that, you know, in hindsight, like, my life has changed so drastically that I don't recognize it a lot of the time.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And in the midst of that, I'm trying to teach another person how to be a person. But I do. I do get shit for it. Like, you're kidding. You would do it all over. I'm like, I don't. I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would be the window glazer if I had it to do over. I guess I have to live out my fantasy by telling my child, you don't have to have kids, you know, or whatever.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, it feels to me, maybe this is, like, maybe you are not asking for this answer, but, like, that's. To me, that's very understandable. And it's also, like, I think a lot of people have. It seems like many people have kids because it's the normal thing to do, like, the standard societal thing to do, and not because they're like, this completes what I am missing in life, or this is a joy that I want to know and can't imagine life without experiencing. And I think there are so many many reasons to have a child. But I think there are also a lot of bad reasons. And also in America now.

[Jane Marie]

Pressure.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yes, pressure. But in America now, it's like so hard.

[Maris Kreizman]

Like we're gonna go extinct.

[Josh Gondelman]

No, we're not talking natalism.

[Maris Kreizman]

I mean, sort of.

[Josh Gondelman]

But also. What I'm saying is also, there are. There is so much. It is legislatively and medically more difficult now than it used to be to not have a child in many cases.

[Jane Marie]

Totally. I mean, look, I make a whole show about abortion and how important it is.

[Maris Kreizman]

Yeah.

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[Optum Healthcare Announcer]

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[Josh Gondelman]

This is a vacation with Chase Sapphire Reserve. The butler, the spa. This is the edit. A collection of handpicked luxury hotels and a $500 Edit credit Chase Sapphire Reserve. Now even more reward. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

[Jane Marie]

I do think that the folklore, the romanticism has outlived the utility which drove most reproduction for all of humankind up until the Industrial Revolution. Essentially, you know, we needed to. I could nerd off about this, like forever, but the Black Death really created an environment where you needed to be married and be monogamous and have babies because everyone around you was dying. And so we had to create this system and then we built up systems around that system to be like, well, actually, it's virtuous, actually. You know, maintaining your land, keeping your property, passing down things to your heirs, all of that stuff is important. Otherwise the species dies. And politicians now are invoking that as if that's what's happening right now with birth rates.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Maris Kreizman]

Wild.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, that's. It's like, it's ridiculous and it's. And it's also that, you know, this isn't a unique thought, but bringing this up about birth rates while Keeping people out of the country and kicking people out of the country really ruthlessly. And so it's like, I don't think there is that. I don't feel that compulsion of like, who but who will till the soil in my old age about kids.

[Maris Kreizman]

Josh has a really good joke.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

What's that?

[Maris Kreizman]

That I put in my book about not needing someone to inherit an heir.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, yeah, right. People say. I think I also have probably less appetite for legacy than most people. I have like a pretty firm idea of like when I'm dead, whatever happens after that regarding me does not matter other than like the people. I love being sad, but I'm not.

[Jane Marie]

Like, right. If I'm not there to experience it, it didn't happen.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Is how I feel.

[Josh Gondelman]

How I feel about parties.

[Maris Kreizman]

And Josh at the end of that bit says, and we live in a two bedroom apartment in Brooklyn that we rent.

[Josh Gondelman]

That we rent.

[Maris Kreizman]

So like the IKEA furniture could be yours if it holds up until you're born and then grow old, you know,

[Josh Gondelman]

like, yeah, but it's like, yeah, right. I don't have a lot of like, but who will carry on the genes? Like, it's just not a thing for me.

[Jane Marie]

What I've noticed is we've been talking for almost an, let's say an hour and 15 now, and neither of you have had to say like anything about the baby waking up, putting the baby down for a nap, getting the baby, leaving work for the baby. The person that you have to drive around, like, I'm so. The freedom. I know you can't feel it cause you're inside it.

[Josh Gondelman]

Sure, I super feel it.

[Maris Kreizman]

I get it. I can nap whenever I want. That's a huge thing.

[Josh Gondelman]

So this was something that we've talked about, but not for a long time, which was when we got a dog. I think people think a lot of the time getting a pet is like an on ramp, like a training wheels for a baby. And we got the dog and we're like, this is plenty. We're full.

[Maris Kreizman]

And in fact, our dog was old. And so we, we kind of felt like it was good practice for taking care of aging people rather than babies.

[Josh Gondelman]

Starter baby, when our dog when busy. Our previous dog, when she got very old, she would have to go out in the middle of the night. And it was, you know, we were like, this, of course, will do this. This is our beloved pet. But I was like, I think there was a little grumbling of like, if this is what we knew we were signing up for, we might as well, pet again.

[Maris Kreizman]

And then I would tell my friends about it and they'd be like, well, my daughter sleeps through the night. She's four.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Is there anything that you are a little bit jealous of in terms of, you know, watching your parent friends or like, is there some part of you that has a little bit of a string tugging at your heart?

[Maris Kreizman]

I mean, for sure, like first school play, first like all of these milestones. Like, I am a little jealous of that.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I do, I, like, have a real appreciation for like the idea of just your capacity for love and care being exploded, like into. Into this new vastness. I think that's like really beautiful. And I love when I see other people experiencing that and I'm so glad for them. But to me, I. It just doesn't feel like I have so much. I would have so much fun. Fear attached to that as well. And I. Yeah, like, responsibility. Yeah, well, responsibility. And like the anxiety over, like, I hope, like, I'm just too. I'm too tender and squeamish, I think. And I'm just like, I. I would worry all day, every day. And I think, like the, like taking the lid off of how much love you can have in your lid. Life in that way feels like a Pandora's box of like, terror, 100%.

[Maris Kreizman]

And yeah, I'm an anxious person anyway. And yeah, it's enough to take care

[Josh Gondelman]

of the dog, but it's. Yeah, it's not like I. Sorry, I interrupted you.

[Maris Kreizman]

No.

[Alexander Fairweather]

Okay, go ahead.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's not like I see people with kids and go, like, every moment of this looks like agony. Like, it's certainly not that. It's just like that. On balance, it just feels like the. I have so much love and joy in my life and I have like a selfishness about the other stuff that I just am like, I don't want to give this up.

[Jane Marie]

The dream is a production of little everywhere. Our tip line is 323-248-1488. If you want to tell your story.

[Optum Healthcare Announcer]

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

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[Josh Gondelman]

law ACAST powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Alexander Fairweather]

I'm Alexander Fairweather, raised by one of the world's great creative geniuses, John Chamberlain, on his famous foam couches. Now I'm on the couch again with today's boldest creative minds for conversations that will spark your creativity and give you the courage to create something new. On the couch launches May 19 with John Gray of Ghetto Gastro, whose food will make you reap Rethink who belongs at the table. Season 1 Daniel Arsham, Alexander Wang, Annabel Selldorf, and more. Subscribe wherever you stream and follow along at John Chamberlain Estate.

[Josh Gondelman]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.