Truth and Reconciliation, Part One

Summary

The Dream — “Truth and Reconciliation, Part One”

Host: Jane Marie
Guest: Daniel Klein
Date: July 4, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this relaunch of The Dream, Jane Marie takes a fresh, freewheeling approach to exploring the enduring complications of the so-called American Dream, focusing this week on themes of colonization and identity. The season opens with Daniel Klein, who grew up as a religious Zionist in a West Bank settlement, as he recounts the intertwined family, national, and personal history that shaped — and ultimately challenged — his worldview. This episode is the first of a two-part conversation tracing Daniel’s journey from indoctrination and participation in Israel’s settlement project to a more critical, reconciliatory perspective.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Daniel Klein’s Family Background and Zionist Origins

[01:56 – 05:37]

• Daniel introduces himself and his upbringing: born in Jerusalem, raised in a West Bank settlement, deep within a religious Zionist home.
• His parents’ backgrounds: mother from Canada, father from Scranton, Pennsylvania; both families shaped by immigration from Europe pre- and post-Holocaust.
• The post-WWII/1967 context: Daniel explains how the 1967 war transformed Israel in the Jewish imagination from a refuge to a site of messianic promise and Jewish power.

"In 1967, Israel launched a preemptive strike... that culminated in the conquest of the Sinai Peninsula, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights... for many groups... this was really seen as a fulfillment of prophecy."
— Daniel Klein [04:33]

Messianism and Ideological Layers

[05:37 – 07:45]

• Jane and Daniel discuss the centrality of messianic belief within Zionism, especially for religious communities.
• Daniel relates how the rejection of a present Messiah results in pushing accountability and hope into the future, embedding it into both personal psychology and national policy.

“What does it mean when you reject the imminent Messiah? ...The expectation of an external savior installs in people a set of beliefs and behaviors that eventually need to be reckoned with.”
— Daniel Klein [06:18]

Religious Upbringing and Pushing Boundaries

[07:45 – 09:41]

• Daniel describes his family’s identification as modern Orthodox — “not ultra,” but still deeply observant.
• He recounts his own early acts of religious rebellion, like turning lights on during the Sabbath, and the pivotal internal conflicts that created.

“For me, turning lights on on the Sabbath and realizing that it was okay actually created a fracture within me... where I had to perform on the outside, while holding very different beliefs on the inside.”
— Daniel Klein [09:08]

Migration and Life in a Settlement

[11:40 – 17:25]

• The family’s move: from America/Canada to Jerusalem, then to a West Bank settlement as Daniel’s father pursued his “life’s work” in Zionism.
• The household: Daniel, his four sisters (“the prince”), and learning in a feminine environment.
• Visually, the settlement is “suburbia”: green lawns, cafes, pizza shops, not the “caravans of zealots” outsiders imagine.
• Settlements are not grassroots per se; by now, the process is heavily state-backed and institutionalized.

“Settlements are not what most people visualize. Most... are not caravans on a hilltop with crazy zealots. Most... is built into highly developed towns and cities.”
— Daniel Klein [15:47]

Structure and Normalization of Settlements

[17:47 – 22:13]

• Daniel details how settlements evolved from small, isolated outposts to large, fully serviced middle-class cities — now housing over 700,000 Israelis.
• Land acquisition is less about forcibly evicting individuals than using Israeli administrative law to delegitimize prior ownership and facilitate institutional land grabs.

“Most settlements don’t involve kicking someone out of a home. It involves the institutional land grab and dispossession over the course of generations... The real scope of the occupation is in the normalization, in the normalization of the middle class.”
— Daniel Klein [21:05]

The Mirror of Colonization & Global Systems

[22:34 – 23:27]

• Daniel uses the settlement context as a lens on broader questions of systemic dispossession globally.
• He cautions against scapegoating “bad settlers” to avoid reckoning with the systems enabling all forms of colonization, including in the US.

“Pointing at the settler over there is a way to avoid looking at the settler over here... Israel is just exposing [the global system of colonization] on full display.”
— Daniel Klein [22:44]

Segregation and Daily Life

[23:39 – 27:34]

• Settlements are “all-Jewish neighborhoods”—Palestinians lived nearby but were referred to merely as “Arabs” to erase specific identity.
• Schools (even in “Israel proper”) are institutionally segregated; Daniel never interacted with Palestinians as peers.
• Anecdotes of internalized trauma: murder of a school peer, pervasive threat, and hypervigilant atmosphere during the Second Intifada.

“We were taught that they were just Arabs, in an attempt to essentially erase the Palestinian identity, which is one of the first parts of dehumanization.”
— Daniel Klein [23:46]

Conscription and Systemic Indoctrination

[30:09 – 38:04]

• Daniel explains how military service is the culmination of years of education and cultural programming, including emotionally charged visits to Holocaust sites in Poland.
• The state, educational system, and military coordinate a “fusing” of historical trauma, Jewish identity, and nationalism.

“[The] narrative is focused on a victimhood narrative, an antisemitic narrative, the narrative of hopelessness... all connected in order to construct a story in the present day, regardless of what happened or didn’t happen.”
— Daniel Klein [32:14]

• Daniel shares a particularly shocking supremacist perspective from his former yeshiva:

“I said, all of humanity is one body. And [my friend] said, ‘You’re right, all of humanity is one body, but the Jewish people are the head and the Palestinians are the excrement.’”
— Daniel Klein [39:27]

Military Service & Disillusionment

[40:55 – 43:10]

• Daniel served three years as a tank commander, primarily training new recruits.
• His ideological fervor quickly turned to disappointment with the bureaucracy and perceived heartlessness of the IDF. However, his deep doubts about the Zionist project only emerged years later.

“I came in with those feelings of grandeur and very quickly learned that this is a very big, heartless organization that I wanted nothing to do with... Leaving aside even the Palestinians for a moment, I was realizing that this institution didn’t actually care about me either.”
— Daniel Klein [42:19]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Post-1967 Zionism:
  “That got a lot of people, I think, very, very drunk with the idea of Israel and what it means to be a Jewish person when we can now conquer, kind of hold this power.”
  — Daniel Klein [04:33]

• On Early Rebellion:
  “Turning lights on on the Sabbath and realizing that it was okay actually created a fracture within me... and that trauma starts scaling into bigger and bigger pictures.”
  — Daniel Klein [09:08]

• On Settlements as Middle-Class Suburbs:
  “For them, they could be choosing to live in Tel Aviv or they could be choosing to live in the settlement. They’ll have their own considerations, but there’s no functional difference.”
  — Daniel Klein [18:53]

• On Not Recognizing Palestinians:
  “We were taught that they were just Arabs, in an attempt to erase the Palestinian identity, which is one of the first parts of dehumanization.”
  — Daniel Klein [23:46]

• On Indoctrination:
  “Joining the military actually starts when you’re born... by the time you join the military, you have the belief that you are doing this in order to prevent another Holocaust and that you’re really a hero of the Jewish people.”
  — Daniel Klein [30:12]

• On Supremacism in Religious Teaching:
  “The Jewish people are the head and the Palestinians are the excrement.”
  — Daniel Klein recounting a classmate’s comment [39:27]

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Daniel’s Family & Zionist Roots: [01:56 – 05:37]
• Messianism & Ideology: [05:37 – 07:45]
• Settlement Life Explained: [15:38 – 22:13]
• Normalization & Systemic Critique: [22:34 – 23:27]
• Segregation / Encounters with Palestinians: [23:39 – 27:34]
• Militarization, Indoctrination, and Holocaust Trips: [30:09 – 38:04]
• Ideological Extremes in Yeshiva: [38:50 – 40:53]
• Military Service & Disenchantment: [40:55 – 43:10]

---

Tone and Takeaways

Jane's approach is forthright and gently probing, giving Daniel the space to be brutally honest — and occasionally vulnerable — about his past beliefs and experiences. The episode masterfully reveals how systemic racism, identity, displacement, and indoctrination aren't unique to one place, but are symptoms of global empire and colonization. The discussion promises further depths as Daniel’s reckoning continues in Part Two.

---

Looking Ahead

“We’re going to continue our conversation on the next episode and learn how exactly Daniel changed his mind and his world...”
— Jane Marie [43:10]

Listeners are invited to follow Daniel’s writing at his Substack, “Truth and Reconciliation,” for more insight. This episode is essential listening for anyone eager to confront the roots of colonialism, both in the Middle East and in themselves.

---

Transcript

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the nonstop group chat, trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots. Go unlimited data for $25 a month

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

forever Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

Boost $25 Unlimited plan everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting Therapy Grow Therapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. Grow connects you with thousands of high quality licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekend. The therapist you want takes your insurance on. Grow grow accepts over 125 insurance plans. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growth acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. On this, the 250th anniversary of our nation's independence, I'm thinking about colonization. Today's guest spent most of his life as a colonizer of sorts and has been steadily chipping away at what that means and how he'd like to live a different sort of life. I hope you enjoy our discussion.

[Daniel Klein]

My name is Daniel Klein and I was born in Jerusalem and grew up in a settlement in the west bank in a religious Zionist home for the first 22 years of my life and am currently devoted to sharing the journey of kind of deconstructing that system.

[Jane Marie]

So let's go way way back. How did your people end up in Jerusalem?

[Daniel Klein]

So my mother is originally from Canada and my father is from a coal mining town in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And when they met I think that they knew that along a big part of their vision together was to move to Israel. And my father, his entire life's work and purpose revolves around the Zionist project. And so when they had an opportunity to move in the mid-1980s, they moved to Jerusalem and then eventually moved out to the settlement in the west bank where I was born.

[Jane Marie]

And where did their people come from? Like, where did your grandparents come from?

[Daniel Klein]

Well, on both sides, there were a couple of generations that were living both in Canada and in Pennsylvania, and different family members had emigrated from Europe to the States and to Canada over the course of a couple of generations preceding the Holocaust. And so while I have family that perished in the Holocaust, for the most part, our family roots were in North America well before that. And Zionism, I think that my dad growing up in Scranton, Pennsylvania, back then there was still a little bit more of an overt form of anti Semitism that people had experienced. And from a very young age, I think there, there was this instilling of Jewish pride. Where can we be? Where can we be free? Where can we be authentic? And at some point, I guess my father was born in the mid-1950s. There was already talk about Israel. People knew about Israel. And following 1967, the war. In 1967, the state was really elevated to a messianic promise. And people really saw it as a messianic kind of vision. So in 1967, Israel launched. Obviously there's a broader context, but Israel launched a preemptive strike against its neighbors that culminated in the conquest of the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, East Jerusalem and the west bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria. And so while for many years there was this aspect of we're just trying to survive, in 1967 there was the next chapter, which is the, the. The power, the might, the expansion. And that, that got a lot of people, I think, very, very drunk with the idea of Israel and what it means to be a Jewish person when we can now conquer, kind of hold this power. Exactly. And for many groups, and I come from the religious Zionist group, this was really seen as an important theological milestone towards bringing the Messiah and the messianic vision. And it was really seen as a fulfillment of prophecy.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. I think that's something that gets lost in the big story. Not to track, but I think it gets really lost. Like when we talk about Zionism and when we talk about Israel as a nation state, that there is still this not goal necessarily because you can't make it happen, but that because Jesus wasn't the guy, there's still this giant group of people who are still hoping for the guy.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

And I think we forget about that in America. We focus on, like, they don't believe in the guy. And it's like, no, because that isn't their guy. There's another guy.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes, but that. So for me, this is actually a very important part of the conversation because what does it mean when you, when you reject the imminent Messiah? Because in the vacuum of rejecting the Messiah in the present moment, and the expectation of an external savior actually installs in people a set of beliefs and a set of behaviors that eventually need to be reckoned with. And there's a pushing of the accountability into the future. And so I think that the question of Messianism is deeply woven into everything that we're seeing. And that was a big part of my own personal deconstruction. There are so many layers and people are kind of interacting with this whole conversation at different layers, whether it's Christian Zionists or Jewish Zionists who very much are involved in eschatology and End Day's prophecy. And so that's a big part of their conversation. But then there's also the conversations about the material aspect of occupation, subjugation, capitalism, empire. All of these different layers, I feel, are interwoven into what I see in Palestine as the world's greatest mirror.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, let's put a pin in that for a second and go back to your dad. So how did your dad get involved in Zionism? And how religious were your parents, families?

[Daniel Klein]

So they would by, I think in the American language they would probably be considered modern Orthodox. So they're not ultra Orthodox. They're not the people that you see wearing the suits and the hats with long side curls. It's a form of religious belief that's deeply intertwined or layered with modern, with modern life. So modern Orthodox would be the, would be the term and not, not particularly messianic or extreme in any traditional sense.

[Jane Marie]

And, and by modern you mean like what were like Saturday practices? Like, could you turn the lights on?

[Daniel Klein]

No, no turning the lights on. But that's actually a big part of my personal journey. When I started experimenting with that as a four or five year old.

[Jane Marie]

What do you mean?

[Daniel Klein]

And seeing what the consequences of that were.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, well, you're still here.

[Daniel Klein]

Exactly. So for me, that was a very important part of starting to experiment with pushing the boundaries of the religion and seeing what the consequences were. But not, not just the religious consequences, but how, how does the system keep people in line religiously? And what are the familial consequences to be able to speak your truth about these things? And, and for me, turning lights on on the Sabbath and realizing that it was okay actually created a fracture within me where, where I had to perform on the outside. While holding very different beliefs on the inside. And then that, that trauma starts scaling into bigger and bigger pictures.

[Jane Marie]

So, okay, so that again, let's go back to your dad and him getting into Zionism. How did that start for him?

[Daniel Klein]

Well, not to speak for him, but I think that that upbringing and experiencing antisemitism and then experiencing the, the promise of 1967, he was always searching for a way to preserve the Jewish people, protect the Jewish people, be a part of something that was bigger than him. And I believe that for many people, Zionism is the answer to those questions, those fragmentations and feelings of belonging. And over the years he would visit Israel, he fell in love with Israel. And ultimately, when he had the resources, he devoted his life, his wealth and all aspects of his being to the project. And I don't necessarily think it was a single moment. It was a lifetime of, of building up and being connected to this idea and that project.

[Jane Marie]

Was it like, forgive my ignorance, was it organized well or was it just kind of an idea? Was there a pamphlet where they said, here's what you need to do, you need to move to Israel now and then do this and then do this? Or was it more like kind of loosey goosey?

[Daniel Klein]

That's a good question, because I'm not sure what it was like back then. If I had to guess, it was, it was a lot less extreme than it was today. I think it was more of an idea. I think that the institutional indoctrination has become more and more sophisticated. And I think that back then it was the kind of idea that one would hear on the radio or through the word of mouth as you're navigating life in small town Scranton, Pennsylvania. So I think it was more of an idea than it was anything institutional.

[Jane Marie]

So where were they at in life when they moved?

[Daniel Klein]

So when they moved in the mid-1980s, my father was already well established in the business world. He was working in the, in finance and commodities trading. And he arrived at a point in his professional career where he could in fact move the family to Israel, even though he was still commuting back and forth to the States. My mom for the most part was, was a stay at home mom and doing, doing the very heavy lifting. And they were, they were at a place where he could afford to move and commute.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, and, and how many are you?

[Daniel Klein]

I have four, four older sisters. I'm the baby here, I'm the prince. I certainly learned a lot. It was a great preparation for everything that we're seeing in the world today.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Daniel Klein]

Really well. I think that being connected to the feminine energy and learning how to work with feminine energy and how we're breaking down very masculine structures too, and it could be really uncomfortable if you're not familiar with the feminine energy.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. So your parents moved to. Do they go directly to Jerusalem?

[Daniel Klein]

They moved to Jerusalem first before moving out to the settlement.

[Jane Marie]

We'll be right back.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes. It cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the nonstop group chat, trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots no unlimited data for $25 a month forever.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 Unlimited plan.

[Daniel Klein]

With my Sapphire Preferred card, we took

[Jane Marie]

a trip to a desert Oasis earning

[Daniel Klein]

five times the points on Chase Travel, two times the points on all other

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

travel, plus $100 hotel credit.

[Jane Marie]

Chase Sapphire Preferred a card that's preferred for a reason.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Cards issued by JP Morgan J's Bank,

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

NA Member, FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

Everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting therapy. Grow Therapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. Grow connects you with thousands of high quality licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekend. The therapist you want takes your insurance on. Grow grow accepts over 125 insurance plans. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

While every other channel is fighting for your customers attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that Trust at scale, digital precision. Host read authenticity and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com advertise.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, let's talk about the move to the settlement. So can you just paint a picture visually of what your house was like and where you were?

[Daniel Klein]

Absolutely. So the settlement, in many ways that we lived in is highly established, and I often share that. Settlements are not what most people visualize. Most of them are not caravans on a hilltop with crazy zealots. Most of the settlement movement is built into highly developed towns and cities. And. And we were about 15, 20 minutes south of Jerusalem, past Bethlehem, which we could actually see from the hilltops. And it's a sprawling series of hills, very idyllic. It feels very quiet, and it feels really like it's just a form of suburbia. So for me, I didn't really even recognize at the time that we lived in a settlement. I didn't know what that meant. I just assumed that we were a part of Israel. And it took decades to actually even come into the full awareness of what that even meant, because green line, pink line, this line, that line, none of that means anything when you're just growing up in what feels like an extension of Jerusalem. And so we would look out on the hills, our town was very green. You'd have cafes, pizza shops, restaurants over the years, bakeries, healthcare services. And it just feels like a beautiful, biblical, idyllic oasis.

[Jane Marie]

And when you say settlements, plural. So I'm always confused as to whether it's like a group of people get together and decide they're moving there, or if there's a leader that's saying, come

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

here,

[Jane Marie]

or is settlements just means. Like, tell me what settlements means. I guess.

[Daniel Klein]

Yeah. So today settlements are highly institutionalized because they're deeply connected to the state itself, and the state supports them and works with, let's call them, pioneers to establish the settlements, give them state back legitimacy and. And grow them. And so they're deeply connected to Israel. So settlements are not groups of people that just go to live on a hilltop somewhere and it turns into a town. These are, for the most part, you know, sometimes they may start with a small group of people in a caravan that work towards legitimacy from the state, and then they get resources from the state, and they're able to start building legally. And then they'll bring in real estate companies and they'll start developing homes and developing all of the infrastructure in a centrally. In a very centrally planned way. So the banks are involved, the government's involved, the military is involved. And so while, while there's really a spectrum, because every settlement essentially started with a caravan, right? But then you have settlements that have been around for 30, 40 years, like my settlement, which is already a city. And so the people that are moving in and out of it, you know, for them, they could be choosing to live in Tel Aviv or they could be choosing to live in the settlement. They'll have their own considerations, but there's no functional difference. And then you might have the pioneers that really want to go and establish a new community and a new town. And that takes years of hardship, Right. Navigating the bureaucracy, navigating the Palestinian neighbors. And so those there are people who are actually signing up for a much more, let's call it settler journey. But today the settlements have almost, I think north of 700,000 people live in the occupied territories. And so this is a very large percentage of Israeli population that are living in a, in a highly developed infrastructure.

[Jane Marie]

And what differentiates one settlement from another?

[Daniel Klein]

Very often it will just be character. So you might have religious settlements, ultra Orthodox settlements, secular settlements, access to, access to transportation. Some people might be further out cost of living. For the most part, the considerations today are, are middle class considerations.

[Jane Marie]

It's similar to choosing which neighborhood in LA you want to live in.

[Daniel Klein]

Exactly. It's not even ideological for maybe even for most people at this point.

[Jane Marie]

And did your parents build their house or did they take someone else's? I hate saying it like that. I'm not trying to laugh. Sorry.

[Daniel Klein]

No, of course they had built it.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, but did they take the land from someone? Or the land was just unoccupied and not owned by anybody?

[Daniel Klein]

Well, a lot of this land was taken in 1967. And so Israel controlled all of the land. And slowly over the years, and using all of Israel's tools of administrative law, slowly started annexing pieces of land by making it almost impossible for any previous owner to even prove that they owned it. And even if they did, the hurdles were so extreme so that Israel would slowly take these pieces of land. And so most settlements don't involve kicking somebody out of a home. It involves the institutional land grab and dispossession over the course of generations. And that's one of the ways that the, the project whitewashes itself, Right? It'll say, well, nobody could prove that they lived here for 40 years, right? And then they'll build there specifically. And in many ways, the images that you see of the violent settler that are entering into all of these altercations at some level is actually a distraction because the real settlement project and the real scope of the occupation is in the normalization, is in the normalization of the middle class that's participating at a systems level and less about the individuals that are committing the acts of terror.

[Jane Marie]

I have so many corollaries I could bring up right now, but we'll stick to with the story. But yeah, I mean, we do the same thing here, right? Like our unhoused neighbors are not all on skid row. Like, you know what I mean? Like when you're thinking about where people belong and how they get there, there's just like. With housing especially, like there's. There's ways people get homes and there's ways people don't have homes.

[Daniel Klein]

And, and that's why I say it's the ultimate mirror because it actually comes back to the system that we see everywhere in the world.

[Jane Marie]

Say more about that.

[Daniel Klein]

Well, I always say that pointing at the settler over there is a way to avoid looking at the settler over here. And the entire empire, and the entire empire of colonization is a global system and Israel is just exposing it on full display. But then the real questions become.

[Jane Marie]

And also it's tiny and manageable and it's two groups, you know.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes. And it's very easy to point at.

[Jane Marie]

Right, that's what I mean. Manageable in your mind as far as a thing to critique. Like it doesn't have a lot of different. You can break it down into a very small problem in your mind, even though it's a huge problem and it's everywhere.

[Daniel Klein]

Rather than looking at the problem of the country that we're currently in and how did we get here? What is the story that brought us here? And is this just a much more developed stage of a much bigger project?

[Jane Marie]

Did you live amongst Palestinians or no?

[Daniel Klein]

In the broader sense, yes. And that's where things I guess start to get more interesting. The only interactions I had with Palestinians at the time and back then I did not know them as Palestinians because we were taught that they were just Arabs in an attempt to essentially erase the Palestinian identity, which is one of the first parts of dehumanization. So I didn't even recognize that they were Palestinian or what Palestinian even meant. And so the settlements themselves are Jewish and so we didn't live amongst Palestinians. This is an all Jewish neighborhood.

[Jane Marie]

And was Arab Muslim.

[Daniel Klein]

Well, I didn't even realize that there was such a thing as a Palestinian Christian really. And in many ways Arab is also conflated with Muslim, which is also an attempt to erase Palestinian Christian identity, which is a whole sidebar.

[Jane Marie]

So, okay, so it's like Arabs who are Muslim. That's who Palestinians are in your understanding as a kid.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes, exactly.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Daniel Klein]

Who also want to destroy us. Right. When you start to layer in belief after belief after belief, and it's all. It's all connected.

[Jane Marie]

They want to destroy you because that's what their scripture says that.

[Daniel Klein]

Because they don't want us here. And it could be because they hate Jews. Right There. There's the trope that they're anti Semitic, but essentially they simply can't live or can't coexist with us here.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, yeah. Just because the. The settlers don't let them. Is that right? Like, can you. Can they go to the same school as you? Like, can they. You know what I mean? Like, we're.

[Daniel Klein]

No. So the most schools in Israel, even in. Let's call it Israel proper, are also segregated. So there are the Jewish tracks and the Muslim tracks, and there. There might be some schools that experiment with mixing. It's not that they don't exist, but at an institution, institutional level, schools are segregated. And so I went to all Jewish schools. And so the. The life inside the settlement, I had a lot of freedom. There's a very strong sense of community. So you could go out and explore, go through. We had forests in our town, go out late. It was really, from that perspective, very idyllic. But then there was a parallel track that was occurring, which is every time you left the settlement, that's where you also started to interact with the Palestinians. Because we would share roads, and to get into Jerusalem, you'd have to drive through a checkpoint. And so that's where the formative years and experiences of driving through the checkpoints started to develop. So while I was safe inside my town and inside my settlement, there was always the feeling that the Palestinians on the outside were dangerous. We don't really mix with them outside of there. And growing up, I had kind of a peer, I would suppose. I had met him a few times. He was one grade above me, and he was out outside of the settlements with a friend. And he was murdered by. By Palestinians when he was. I think he was in fourth grade at the time.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, sweetie.

[Daniel Klein]

And so these are the kinds of things that we. That we internalized and that we. We internalize these into. Into our own systems and into our own nervous systems. That there's a danger out there.

[Jane Marie]

Because you're Jewish.

[Daniel Klein]

Because we're Jewish. Yeah, exactly.

[Jane Marie]

And there was greater violence happening in the cities at the time. I mean, in the 80s, 90s, right?

[Daniel Klein]

Yeah. I lived through what they call the second intifada. And there were many times where driving on the roads was very dangerous. There would be drive by shootings, we would get hit by rocks, Molotov cocktails. There were suicide bombers both in our settlement and in, in Israel. And so when you're growing up in that environment, even stepping onto a bus or going to the mall is something that keeps your system in hypervigilance all of the time. And of course, everything that you're seeing is then confirming the very beliefs that you have. And so grow, growing up, I experienced all of these different kinds of things and all of those, all of those traumas. But of course, you never asked the deeper question of what's really happening here? Why is, why is this happening?

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots.

[Daniel Klein]

No, I'm not.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

Unlimited data for $25 a month forever.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 unlimited plan.

[Jane Marie]

Our trip up the coast was perfection.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

With my Sapphire Preferred card, we earned

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

three times the points on gas, online, grocery and dining. It was amazing.

[Jane Marie]

Chase Sapphire preferred the color card that's

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

preferred for a reason. Cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank

[Jane Marie]

and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale, digital precision. Host read authenticity and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com advertise.

[Jane Marie]

So eventually you get conscripted.

[Daniel Klein]

While most people are conscripted at the age of 18 or 19, joining the military actually starts when you're born. And the way I Understand it is that joining the military is actually the culmination of an 18 year journey of militarization, whether it's culturally, socially woven into the education system by that point. In high school, many schools take their students to Poland to visit the, the camps in Poland. And then they're integrating Holocaust trauma and connecting that with conscription. So that by the time you join the military, you have the belief that you are doing this in order to prevent another Holocaust and that you're really a hero of the Jewish people.

[Jane Marie]

Can you tell me specific stories about you being indoctrinated in that way or getting exposed through education? Like, did you go to Auschwitz?

[Daniel Klein]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, can you tell me the story of that?

[Daniel Klein]

So there's a long preparation that you start going through in I think it's 12th grade, if I'm not mistaken, maybe 11th grade, where you prepare to go onto the trip to Poland and you, you start learning all of the history. And I actually say that with a grain of salt because it's important to remember that in any high indoctrination system, and this actually applies everywhere, but the history that we are generally learning is only supporting one narrative and one narrative only. Right. It's all, it's all in service to the Zionist project, It's all in service to Israel and to perpetuating the trauma. So we're learning a very specific version of history in preparation to visit the camps.

[Jane Marie]

What version of the Holocaust could you have been taught that isn't like. Can you tell me the differences between what you taught now know to be factual and how it was more propaganda at the time?

[Daniel Klein]

Well, I think that as time goes by, I'm learning that most everything that's factual is not necessarily factual. I don't even really. I don't even really know anymore. And I think that the, the way that I think about things is actually by being very uncomfortable with the not knowing and seeing how narratives are created today in real time. I can only imagine how over the course of history, the people that wrote the history books had a lot of say as to what actually happened. And that's why I just find it less of a relevant pursuit. Rather, the way that I understand it is the entire narrative is focused on a victimhood narrative, an anti Semitic narrative, the narrative of hopelessness, the narrative that the Final Solution in Europe led to the Final Solution of political emancipation in the land of Palestine. And so all of these things were connected in order to construct a story in the present day, regardless of what happened or didn't happen.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so you start Preparing for this trip.

[Daniel Klein]

So I start preparing for the trip, and you're learning about the different. About the different communities. I was in a religious yeshiva high school. Yeshiva is an institute of Jewish studies in the Jewish world. And so we're combining it with the different rabbinic authorities that existed in Europe, all in preparation for the trip. And I think that we went for approximately 10 days, and it's 10 very intensive days of visiting the camps, visiting the different ghettos, visiting the different communities and the mass graves. And as you're moving through this, it's on the one hand, connecting to the military. Right. How we're now going to get to go serve in the military that can ensure that this will never happen again. And you're starting to weave it into questions of theology and questions of God. And all of these different components of identity are getting fused to the Zionist project. And there's a lot of crying, there's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of camaraderie. People are wrapping themselves in flags, and the container is essentially held in such a way that there is a complete kind of breakdown of the self as you're being exposed to all of these things and getting put back together within the context of the narrative of the story of the trauma.

[Jane Marie]

And that's all obviously, by design. Like, the schools are deciding to do this. Are they deciding with the help of the state, or is this like each individual school decides to take you there, or is it the IDF that's coming in?

[Daniel Klein]

All of the above. All of the above schools have their own flexibility in terms of programming, but they're also in touch with the state, and there's funding from the state. Different programs might bring soldiers. And so it's all interconnected and most definitely supported by the state.

[Jane Marie]

Do you leave Poland feeling, like, righteous?

[Daniel Klein]

I leave Poland feeling righteous. I think my diary is actually still back in the settlement, which, at this point in life, everything that I have that was at home is, as far as I'm concerned, is gone forever. So I don't have access to my diary anymore, though it would be very interesting to take a look at it now. And I think that most of what I wrote ultimately was tying back to Israel and to the fact that Israel is the only safe haven in the world.

[Jane Marie]

So you have to go serve in the military.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes, that is by law. And there are different kinds of exemptions for groups like the ultra orthodox have their own universe of exemptions. But for most Israelis, the process for interviewing for different units already starts when you're in High school. And so there's this big social game that's happening. Where are you getting invited to? Where are you getting invited to? Test out for what unit are you going to? My brother goes to that unit. I want to go to that unit. So there's this whole people that want to serve in intelligence units and then there are different kinds of intelligence units and you have to try out for them. Or do you want to go to an elite unit, an elite fighting unit, or you just gotta go to the regular brigades? All of these different things are playing out in high school.

[Jane Marie]

Did they do that before you do boot camp?

[Daniel Klein]

All before boot camp.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, interesting.

[Daniel Klein]

Yeah. You get your first invitation when you're 16 years old is when you start this process. No frontal lobe, you're going right into it. So that's why I was saying that this whole process starts from birth and it's, it's always preparing you for the military. And then post high school, so I graduate high school and post high school, many students opt to do a year or two years in a pre military preparatory program. They could be religious or they could be secular. They're all fundamentally the same. And the purpose of these programs ultimately is to do one of the final stages of, of fusing ideology with identity. And in my case, coming from the religious Zionist world, this is the stage in which theology is fused at the deepest level to your identity, where everything that you're going to go do in the military is now backed with your theological identity. And so everything that you're doing is going to be in service of. Well, it could be messianism, it could be the Jewish people, the Torah. There are different layers to it. And many of the teachings in these programs at their core level of programming are extremely supremacist. And you can really start to hear the rabbis there share highly dehumanizing, disparaging ideas about Palestinians. And, and ultimately those are grounded in theology. And so that's what people then take with them. And I can share one really shocking example where a few years ago I went, I was having a conversation with a friend who, who went to the same yeshiva that I was in, the pre military yeshiva. And I was talking to him, I shared with him that I believe that, that all, all of humanity is one family. And his response was, or I said all of humanity is one body. And he said, you're right that all of humanity is one body, but the Jewish people are the head and the Palestinians are the excrement.

[Jane Marie]

Oh.

[Daniel Klein]

And. And then he continued to say that the Bible mentions the mythical enemy of the Jewish people known as Amalek. And the biblical commandment is to destroy the nation of Amalek, man, women and child. And he said, just like in the Bible, there is a nation whose destiny is to be eradicated. That is the destiny of the Palestinians as the modern day Amalek. Their destiny is eradication. And so these kinds of beliefs, we can go really deep into where do they come from? What are the sources that actually. That this superstructure is built on? But these are the kinds of ideas that I could in many ways routinely hear in this program. And this is everything that's being fused right before you go out and surface.

[Jane Marie]

So you do go out and serve?

[Daniel Klein]

I go out and I serve, yes. I spent three years as a tank commander.

[Jane Marie]

Whoa.

[Daniel Klein]

Though I spent essentially the entire three years of service training new recruits because for me, there was something in my disposition that did not want to go out under the front lines. And I really enjoyed working with, you know, with these. When people join the military, there's a sort of process where Even though they're 18, they revert to being 6 year olds in terms of how it is that you break them down mentally. So I really, I personally enjoyed working with, in a sense, their kids. Right. Because that's how they present themselves and that's how they're asked to behave. And that's where I spent most of my time. The military was very disillusioning for me. I think I came in with those feelings of grandeur and very quickly learned that this is a very big, heartless organization that I wanted nothing to do with. It took me about a year to finally have that. That the real disillusionment and the grandeur

[Jane Marie]

was going to be. You were going to save the Jewish people or something.

[Daniel Klein]

Yes. And instead I found this horrible, soulless bureaucracy that had absolutely no value. I mean, leaving aside even the Palestinians, for a moment, I was realizing that this institution didn't actually care about me either. And for me, I realized that this whole thing was not what I thought it was. And at this point, though I was still completely in Zionism, it's not that this shook my conviction in Zionism or the Zionist project in any way, shape or form that still held for probably a good seven more years. After leaving the military,

[Jane Marie]

We're going to continue our conversation on the next episode and learn how exactly Daniel changed his mind and his world. In the meantime, check out his substack called Truth and Reconciliation.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots no unlimited data for 25amonth forever.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 unlimited plan.

[Jane Marie]

This year's Girls trip to Telluride was the best.

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

We one upped ourselves with my Sapphire

[Jane Marie]

Preferred card and with 5 times points on Chase Travel plus 3 times points on points on vacation homes with top brands.

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

We got this incredible cabin. It was a mansion and with three

[Jane Marie]

times the points on dining, we ordered

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

a wagyu steak dinner and that pistachio gelato was too good.

[Jane Marie]

So where should we go next year?

[Daniel Klein]

I've got ideas.

[Chase Sapphire Advertiser]

Chase Sapphire preferred the card that's preferred for a reason. Cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank

[Jane Marie]

and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

[Daniel Klein]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Chris Guillebeau]

A photographer in Texas earns an extra $47,000 a year shooting Star wars cosplay portraits. A teacher in Maryland turns her woodworking hobby into a five figure side income without leaving the classroom. And a couple in Pennsylvania will rent you backyard chickens for the season so you can try the egg laying life without commitment. My name is Chris Guillebeau. I'm the host of side Hustle School, and I share these kinds of stories every single day in detail, with full transparency about the numbers. The point isn't just to inspire you, it's to show you what's possible. Proof that ordinary people are quietly building extra income in surprising ways, including a few ideas you can borrow less than 10 minutes a day, every day. Subscribe or follow Side Hustle School wherever you get your podcasts or find us [e-mail] Acast helps creators launch, grow and

[Jane Marie]

monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Daniel Klein]

Acast.

[Chris Guillebeau]

Com.