Anthill Garnets & Glorious Gold

Summary

Below is a detailed summary of “Anthill Garnets & Glorious Gold” from The Dream podcast by Little Everywhere, released on August 15, 2025. In this episode, host Jane Marie (labeled as D in the transcript) and guest Ana Brasilita (labeled as C)—a jeweler, sustainability consultant, and educator—dive into the intersections of personal backstory, the jewelry industry, and the ethics behind how we source and value precious metals and gemstones.

──────────────────────────────

1. Episode Overview
   ────────────────────────────── • Main Theme:
    – Exploring the cultural narratives of the American Dream through personal experiences and historical influences on multi-level marketing, all while delving into the complexities and ethical dilemmas within the jewelry industry.
   • Key Focus Areas:
    – Sustainability in jewelry
    – The controversial use and definition of “recycled gold”
    – An explanation of gold alloys and karat terminology
    – Insight into diamonds (including lab grown and conflict diamonds) and gemstone classifications
    – The lifecycle of gold from mine to finished piece

────────────────────────────── 2. Guest Introduction & Personal Backstory
────────────────────────────── • At [01:00–01:30]:
 – Host Jane Marie introduces the episode, noting that a listener’s call has prompted a conversation on jewelry and sustainability.
• At [01:30–02:10]:
 – Ana shares that she began following The Dream due to her family’s past involvement in MLMs (e.g., her mother’s experience with Amway).
 – She describes growing up influenced by the American Dream narrative—a mix of hope and misleading promises—and later deconstructing these ideas as part of her own journey.
• Notable Quote:
 “Exactly. Exactly.” ([02:03]) – Ana reinforces her connection to the ideal and reality of the American Dream.

────────────────────────────── 3. Sustainability in Jewelry & The “Recycled Gold” Debate
────────────────────────────── • Background & Definitions ([07:38–09:15]):
 – Ana explains her dual role as both a creator of new jewelry and a curator of vintage pieces—a balance driven by her sustainability mindset.
 – She emphasizes that sustainability in jewelry isn’t just about the environment; it also encompasses social and cultural impacts.
 – She highlights problematic issues like human rights abuses in mining (“blood diamonds”, unsafe labor conditions) and stresses the need for ethical sourcing that benefits local communities. • Deep Dive into “Recycled Gold” ([12:52–15:12]):
 – Ana discusses how the term “recycled gold” is loosely defined in the industry, with various groups using broad criteria.
 – She contrasts what most consumers imagine—old jewelry melted down—with the reality that much of what is called recycled may include new material (like manufacturing scrap or recently mined bullion).
 – Notable Observations:
  ▪ The “green halo” of recycled gold creates a positive but sometimes misleading environmental association.
  ▪ Ana voices concern over companies making environmental claims without clear proof, which she likens to greenwashing.

────────────────────────────── 4. Gold 101: Karats, Alloys, and Certification
────────────────────────────── • Explaining Purity & Alloys ([25:03–27:09]):
 – Ana breaks down what 24 karat gold means—pure, elemental gold—and why it isn’t used for most jewelry due to its softness.
 – She details how gold is alloyed with other metals (copper, silver, zinc) to create variants such as 18K, 14K, etc., which then give rise to different colors (rose gold, for example, has more copper).
 – Notable Quote:
  “That's the kind you can bite into…” ([25:50]) – A humorous nod by host Jane to the tactile nature of 24K gold. • Ethical Certifications ([27:51–29:15]):
 – Ana explains how certifications like Fairmined and Fair Trade help identify responsibly mined, artisanal gold that benefits local communities and acknowledges environmental and social factors.  – She encourages consumers to look for these distinctions (often detailed on a jeweler’s website or in consumer guides like the Better Jewelry Project).

────────────────────────────── 5. Diamonds—Natural, Lab Grown, and the Question of Ethics
────────────────────────────── • Market Position & History ([36:34–37:19]):
 – The conversation shifts toward why diamonds came to dominate engagement rings.
 – C attributes the phenomenon largely to De Beers’ historic marketing campaign that fostered the “diamond engagement ring” myth. • Lab Grown Diamonds & Greenwashing Concerns ([37:55–40:10]):
 – They discuss the ethical complexities around lab grown diamonds: though they may seem “conflict-free”, their production process—often in large factories, sometimes powered by fossil fuels—is not automatically sustainable.
 – Ana warns that a label of “lab grown” does not necessarily guarantee a lower human rights or environmental impact. • Traceability Issues:
 – Both speakers note that without proper traceability, claims of ethical sourcing become murky, echoing challenges faced with recycled gold.

────────────────────────────── 6. Gemstones, Market Value & A Quick Look at Moissanite
────────────────────────────── • Gemstone Categories & Value Judgments ([34:00–35:48]):
 – Ana describes how gemstones are arbitrarily categorized as “precious” or “semi-precious”, using examples such as anthill garnets—remarkably unique gems actually pushed up from the ground by ants.
 – Other gems like sapphires, rubies (which are a color variant of the same mineral, corundum), emeralds, aquamarine, and opals are discussed in terms of rarity, aesthetics, and market value.
• Moissanite Explained ([47:06–48:40]):
 – The discussion touches on moissanite as a diamond simulant—often compared favorably to cubic zirconia (CZ).
 – Ana explains that, while lab-created moissanite is inexpensive and popular, naturally occurring moissanite (which is extraordinarily rare) can be more valuable and is fundamentally different from both diamonds and CZ.

────────────────────────────── 7. The Lifecycle of Gold: From Mine to Jewelry
────────────────────────────── • Process Overview ([43:09–44:09]):
 – A step-by-step explanation of gold’s journey:   ▪ Mining: Gold is extracted from the earth (artisanal/mining operations vary widely).
  ▪ Refining: The raw ore is processed into ingots or bars (often at distant facilities, sometimes overseas).
  ▪ Manufacturing: The refined gold is either cast into molds or fabricated (turned into wires, sheets, etc.) to form jewelry. • Broader Uses Beyond Jewelry ([45:08–46:06]):
 – Besides jewelry, gold is utilized in electronics, automotive components, and as investment (gold bars in banks), emphasizing that while jewelry forms a significant portion of usage, it is not the sole application.

────────────────────────────── 8. Closing Thoughts & Future Conversations
────────────────────────────── • Final Discussion ([47:24–48:53]):
 – The talk winds down with light-hearted banter—notably about potentially returning in future episodes to talk about pearls—as well as humorous quips regarding personal jewelry choices.
 – The host even muses about discounts on earrings as a nod to the ongoing conversation. • Interactive Element:
 – Jane reminds listeners that a tip line is open for further questions, encouraging audience participation.

────────────────────────────── 9. Notable Quotes & Timestamps
────────────────────────────── • “Exactly. Exactly.” – Ana, emphasizing her connection to the American Dream ([02:03])
• “It's the green halo of that word… recycled gold.” – Ana, critiquing the benefits and misconceptions around recycled gold ([19:03])
• “I’m telling you, it’s a very common question that I get … and consumer awareness work that I’ve been focused on.” – Ana, on the importance of understanding gold purity and mining ethics ([28:42])
• “Diamonds got to be number one because of De Beers.” – Host and Ana summarizing the historic marketing influence on diamond engagement rings ([37:00–37:20])

────────────────────────────── 10. Conclusion
────────────────────────────── This episode of The Dream blends personal narrative with an in-depth industry analysis, illuminating the often opaque world of jewelry production. Ana Brasilita’s insights—ranging from the historical evolution of gold mining to the modern challenges of sustainability and ethical marketing—offer listeners a nuanced view of how familiar objects like engagement rings, moissanite, and even ant-driven garnets intersect with broader socio-environmental issues. Whether you’re a jewelry enthusiast or simply curious about what lies behind the beauty, this conversation encourages a more informed and conscious engagement with the products we value.

For anyone who missed the episode, this summary provides a comprehensive breakdown of the topics discussed along with key timestamps to dive deeper into moments of particular interest. Enjoy exploring the glories and gray areas of the jewelry world as presented on The Dream.

Transcript

[A]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply see capitalone.com bank capital1na member.

[B]

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[C]

Can I make my site softer?

[A]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[B]

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[D]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the Dream. I know I promised you that today we would start offering ad free episodes. That's a lie. It's going to happen August 29th for reasons that are super boring. But it's coming. Ad free episodes are coming. I promise. Okay. On with the show. Well, let's just get to it. You called us.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And tell me why.

[C]

Well, I started listening to the Dream a long time ago with the first season just because of like personal family connections to MLMs. And I'm always just like fascinated by the psychology behind it.

[D]

Say more about that.

[C]

My mom was in Amway when we first moved to the United States. It was like the whole thing. She went on the journey, never actually making any money at it, of course, but always kind of believing in that story that they were selling.

[D]

The American Dream.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly.

[D]

Why did your parents move here, if you don't mind me asking?

[C]

Oh, not at all. It was definitely that like idea of the American dream, you know, like Lithuania regained independence from the USSR in 1991 and the economy's doing a lot better now, but it was really slow to recover. It was definitely this idea of you can accomplish anything in America. Money grows on trees kind of thing.

[D]

And then some jerk was like, triam way. Yeah, this lady looks susceptible.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I think like many people, it was, you know, probably well intentioned and my mom just kind of really bought into it. They used to like have the cassette tapes. Yeah. Of like, you know, the success stories and everything. And she would Listen to them in the car.

[D]

And that's where they make most of their money.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And the conferences and stuff, you've touched on that too.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

You know, I totally get it. It's what we had been told for so long, and it took me a really long time to kind of deconstruct that idea of the American dream and realize, like, kind of see through all the muck. And when I heard the episode with Charlotte Palermino, who I really, like, follow for my skincare stuff, I was like, oh, we could do something similar for jewelry, you know, where it's like there's all this misinformation out there or like people don't have a deep understanding of it because it's so complex.

[D]

Well, let's give it to them.

[C]

Yeah. My name is Ana Brasilita. I'm originally from Lithuania, but, you know, I've lived in the US For a long time now, and I'm currently a jeweler and sustainability consultant and educator in the Bay Area.

[D]

I'm jealous. I love jewelry. Tell me how you got into that.

[C]

Yeah, I got into it as an elective in college. I actually went to school for photography and just happened upon metalworking and just really enjoyed the hands on nature of, you know, in comparison to photography. It was really, really hands on. Yeah.

[D]

What kind of stuff do you make?

[C]

Yeah, I'm mostly focused now on kind of custom bespoke work. So I do a lot of engagement rings and wedding bands, but I make a variety of things. You know, I've had people request like anything custom that they can imagine. We can kind of craft together.

[D]

And it's all fine jewelry.

[C]

Yeah, I'm now working mostly in gold, focused on fine jewelry. I started out in kind of more fashion jewelry, working in like brass and silver, and just realized that I didn't like doing the like, production work where you're kind of making the same things over and over. And so I really gravitated toward the like, custom fine end of the sector.

[D]

How would you describe your style?

[C]

My, my design style is really inspired by like modern art and architecture. I'm a really big fan of like the Bauhaus movement. I went to art school in Chicago, so the Institute of Design was like all those photographers there, big inspiration. And yeah, I like. I like a really clean, like, geometric, asymmetrical aesthetic.

[D]

So that's not all you do. You said you have another kind of hustle. Can we talk about that?

[C]

Definitely. I've been a sustainability consultant as well. So I've been working with a Small consultancy called Christina T. Miller Sustainable Jewelry Consulting. It's a mouthful. We call it CMC for short. So at cmc, we focus on helping other jewelry brands on their sustainability programs, develop their sustainability programs and oh, I'm.

[D]

Looking at your stuff right now and I want it.

[C]

Oh, nice.

[D]

I want the vintage interlocking hearts ring, Dan.

[C]

Oh my God, isn't that so cute?

[D]

Yes, you're telling Dan.

[C]

So that's another thing that I also do. So I make my own jewelry, but then I also curate a vintage collection. Because. Because sometimes I have crisis of conscience where I'm like, why am I making more jewelry?

[D]

Wow, okay. This stuff is great.

[C]

Thanks.

[D]

Yeah, I love your drawings too, of the custom stuff that you've done. Anyways. Okay, sorry. Now I'm just like shopping.

[C]

Yeah. I do this mix of like newly made and vintage. Just because being like a sustainability minded person, person in my everyday life too, I like sometimes just think about our consumption habits and I'm like, why am I making more new things when there's already so much jewelry out in the world? But I always come back to like, I love making just the art and craft of it. So I don't know, I kind of just found a balance of those things.

[D]

The sustainability effort in jewelry is what? Where's that coming from?

[C]

Yeah, sustainability in jewelry for the most part, we focus a lot on the sourcing of materials. When I think about sustainability in general, I think of these intersecting areas of not just environment, but also social and cultural sustainability.

[D]

To me, slow down again. What social and cultural sustainability mean?

[C]

Okay. When I say the word sustainability, I think most people, like the general public, think of the environment. Right. And what I want to bring into the conversation when I'm talking about sustainability is the social impacts of our, say, jewelry production. So that we're not just thinking about the environment, but we're thinking about the cultural and social impacts that producing jewelry or producing anything has on people.

[D]

Can you give me a couple examples?

[C]

Yeah. So there's definitely the things that come to mind for people immediately is like the human rights issues.

[D]

Blood diamonds.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. That's usually the first thing that comes to mind. Right.

[D]

Children and mines.

[C]

Yes, yes. And on the other end of that spectrum of those, like human rights issues is also like the opportunity to create positive impacts, like economically for communities where jewelry materials are sourced.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And I always try to think of it through that lens as well, just because, you know, to be like, totally frank, the jewelry industry is built up on colonialism and to me, like sustainability and ethics and jewelry has to work to make up for that legacy. And we can't do that if we're just thinking about the environment. Like, that's important. But we also need to think about, like, how can these communities who have been historically marginalized and their resources extracted, how can they benefit from those resources themselves?

[D]

Is it smart to start with a material and then you can talk about where that comes from and how it gets greenwashed? Like, can we talk about my favorite, which is yellow gold?

[C]

Yes, that is also my favorite to talk about. So that's perfect. Okay. So gold comes to us from a couple different mining sources. Right. So when I talk about mining in any jewelry material, we usually categorize it into two categories. There's artisanal and small scale mining, and then there's industrial or large scale mining. And any material that we mine for can be mined in either capacity. It's like not super well defined, like where the line is between the two. But artisanal mining can be literally just groups of people in between farming seasons, digging in their land for gemstones, or digging pits in the ground for gold mining. Or it can be more organized and cooperatives, but still I would say a lot more focused on the local population and sometimes not very formalized, and a lot more like rudimentary tools and more like hand labor.

[D]

And the other one is there's like a robber baron with a whip.

[C]

I laugh at it now, but that is like how it started, especially like diamond mining back in the day in South Africa. That was real. It very much was like some white man with a whip. That was a reality. And what it is now, I think is kind of like a modernized version of colonialism. It's these multinational corporations, mostly from the global north, that are extracting resources, mostly in the global South. And there's exceptions to all of that. There's companies that do things better or worse. But to me, it broadly replicates this colonialist foundation that the jewelry industry is built upon.

[D]

Mm.

[C]

So gold and any jewelry materials can be mined by either artisanal and small scale mining, which we sometimes call ASM or large scale mining, or lsm. And what you'll most likely as like the general public or as consumers, you'll see a lot of talk about recycled gold. Right.

[D]

Well, let's slow down there, because I don't know if a lot of people have been introduced to that. Like, where I grew up, there was one jeweler who was like a family owned jeweler, and then there was like, Kay jewelers, which I love by the way. And you're gonna have to tell me why I should stop shopping at the clearance section of Kay Jewelers. But I don't know that we all talk about recycled gold. So what is that?

[C]

Okay, that is a great question. And like therein kind of lies the problem is that there is like no agreed upon definition of recycled gold in the industry.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

So there are various industry groups that jewelers, refiners, the people who process the metal and sell it, they're all part of. And these various groups have definitions that they've decided on for recycled gold and they're all a little different and they are also all very broad. So what some of them say are things like, you know, recycled gold is gold that has been previously refined and refining is just the process of like taking the ore from the ground and taking out all the impurities, the other minerals that are like found with it.

[D]

Well, that's all gold.

[C]

Uh huh.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[C]

So if that has happened once and then, you know, maybe it's refined again or it's just turned into a gold bar that then gets melted down and made into jewelry. Like you can call it recycled based on these industry definitions.

[D]

It's like calling fruit organic.

[C]

Yeah, it like misconstrues the meaning of this really commonly understood word. Right. Like we hear recycled and we think, you know, this can that I'm drinking out of, instead of throwing it in the garbage, I'm going to throw it in the recycling. Therefore less aluminum needs to be mined. Like that's what we think of when we think of recycled. And the thing that comes to mind for most people is melted down old jewelry. Right? Yeah, but like these broad definitions allow for so much other material to be considered recycled that really shouldn't be. Because recycled should be taking something, diverting it from a waste stream. And for the most part, gold does not have a waste stream. And so we're not diverting it from a waste stream, we're not recycling it in the same way as we think of with other materials. Right.

[E]

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[A]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One Bank Guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com Bank Capital One NA Member.

[B]

FDIC why choose a Sleep number Smart.

[C]

Bed Can I make my site softer?

[A]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[B]

Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep Number setting. It's the Sleep Number biggest sale of the year. All beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free home delivery with the purchase of any smart bed ends Monday. All Sleep Number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

[F]

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[D]

So what's the utility in calling something recycled gold if essentially all gold that has been processed is recycled?

[C]

It is the green halo of that word. Right. Like, people have a positive association with it. And that's not to say that anyone who uses like, recycled gold is like intentionally greenwashing. Right? There's nothing wrong with using recycled gold. It's just that people are making the same kind of environmental claims sometimes about recycled gold as you would make about other materials. Right? So if they're saying using recycled gold reduces the demand for new mining, that's just not true. Because gold is still like, basically equivalent to currency, like worldwide. Like, it might not actually be pinned directly to our currency anymore, but it's so highly valued that it can be used as currency. And people still see it as a quote, unquote, safe investment. Actually, ever since, like the 2008 financial crisis, it has been increasing in price so much just because people still turn to it as an investment option in, like, uncertain economic times.

[D]

Wow. Wow.

[C]

Yeah. Gold has really increased in price recently. And so because of that, the jewelry industry has been using what we're calling recycled gold really steadily for the past 10, 15 years, at least, even longer, but kind of focusing on recycled gold as this quote, unquote solution for the past 10, 15 years at least. And mining has not decreased at all, you know, because people are going to continue to try to dig this really valuable material out of the ground, right?

[D]

Well, first of all, is there such a thing that's recycled gold in the way that I, a layperson, imagine it? Are there companies that are melting down my broken earrings?

[C]

Yeah, so that definitely happens. And I think a lot of smaller, like, independent jewelers have a better capacity to do something like that. Like, especially if you have an heirloom piece or something and you want to bring it to somebody and say, can we melt this down and make something new out of it when it comes to like, bigger companies and what they call recycled gold. That gold might have a lot of that old jewelry or dental crowns or whatever in it, but it is likely to also have manufacturing scrap that has never been in a product yet. And like gold bullion that could have been mined like a week ago. And they usually just don't have a way to tell because they're the manufacturers that they're buying from, you know, are buying from specific refiners who process this gold and might not keep track of where it's coming from.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Or might not want to tell them.

[D]

So it's kind of a marketing ploy essentially to say it's recycled. It's supposed to give us a feeling about the gold.

[C]

I think it's a marketing ploy. When people present it in this eco friendly light, it does just automatically have this positive association in our brains because we're so used to something being made with recycled material being a positive thing. And at its best case scenario, it's kind of just the status quo in jewelry because we've been reusing and remelting gold for like thousands of years.

[D]

Is anyone trying to make a more distinct definition around, like, is there a push? It's reminding me kind of, of multi level marketing not being called pyramid schemes, you know?

[C]

Yeah, I think like, I have such an interest in like the way we use specific words to describe our work and like how, you know, that can teeter on the line of greenwashing or.

[D]

Not and greenwashing for our listeners. Can we talk about what that is real quick?

[C]

So greenwashing is basically companies making positive environmental claims in their marketing without being able to substantiate those claims.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Greenwashing can be very intentional, but it can happen accidentally too, especially if somebody is new in the jewelry industry, industry, say, and doesn't realize this complexity behind recycled gold. And they might come into it, you know, with good intentions, thinking they're doing something really positive, but they haven't looked into like, is it post consumer or not?

[D]

Right.

[C]

Yeah, I like to make that distinction too because it's not always totally nefarious, but a lot of the time it really is like you're just kind of making environmental claims just to get people to buy things and there's really nothing to back up those claims.

[D]

So the distinction you would like to make is something called post consumer recycled gold as opposed to just flatly like blanket recycled gold in a way.

[C]

Okay, so you asked about the definitions. Right. And so there is actually a group that, a working group that I'M now a part of called the Precious Metals Impact Forum. And I joined them because they wrote this really clear definition of recycled gold versus what they're calling reprocessed gold.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And so how they're defining recycled gold is basically anything that would actually be diverted from a waste stream. So that would include things like electronics and things that are actually ending up in landfill. And if you can divert them from landfill, reprocess that gold, then, yes, great. Let's actually call that recycled, and then everything else would just be called reprocessed gold.

[D]

Okay. What's the difference between 24 and 18 and 10 and 9? 9 is a whole thing we can talk about.

[C]

Some people have very strong feelings about whether that should be called solid gold or not.

[D]

I love nine. Let's get there. So let's start at 24. What's 24 karat gold?

[C]

Yeah. So 24 karat gold is pure gold, like elemental gold with no other minerals mixed in. Because when gold is found in nature, you know, whatever kind of ore it's found in will have other minerals or other rock, whatever.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

So when you, like, take all those other minerals out and you're left with just the gold particles, like, that's 24 karat gold.

[D]

That's the kind you can bite into and like to check if the coin's real, if your teeth marks are in it.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So because it's that soft, it's not often used for jewelry. Like, usually it's alloyed with other materials. So an alloy is both the combination of metals itself, and it's the process of mixing those metals together. Basically, it's called alloying. And so gold is usually mixed with copper and silver, sometimes other things like zinc, to form the different carat alloys and the different colors of gold that you'll see.

[D]

So are all of those kind of interchangeable, or is there a reason you would pick zinc over silver?

[C]

Oh, like silver and copper. Yeah, there's different reasons to use them. So, like, if you think of rose gold, it has that, like, rosy color because it has more copper in it than silver.

[D]

I didn't realize. Why didn't I not know that? I feel stupid.

[C]

No, you shouldn't. Honestly, it's a very common question that I get. There's not that much information out there about how it's all made. Right. That's part of why I love talking to people about this.

[D]

So when you go from 18 to 14 to 10, what's happening there?

[C]

Yeah. So those numbers are parts out of 24 okay, so 18 karat gold is 18 parts out of 24 pure gold. And then the other parts are whatever combination of those other metals.

[D]

So is it like a blanket value across all 18 karat gold, or does the alloy matter, like, which one you choose.

[C]

As far as, like, cost?

[D]

Just as far as value? Like, if I have a ring that's mixed with copper versus one that's mixed with silver.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, the gold is so much more valuable than the silver or the copper that that's kind of the only thing that matters.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

It's like the gold content in your 18 or 14 karat that really like counts as far as what the value is.

[D]

And now nine. I thought up until a few years ago that it was illegal in the US to call something nine karat gold. So what happened there?

[C]

So if I'm remembering this correctly as well, I do think that the ftc, the Federal Trade Commission changed that guideline.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So they have this guidance documentation that's called the jewelry Guides and they kind of lay out all the marketing terms and things that are allowed around jewelry. And yeah, I do think that they changed that. I think you're right.

[D]

This is the first time anyone's ever explained to me what the carrots mean. I have no idea.

[C]

I'm telling you, it's a very common question. I get with the pieces that I make and consumer awareness work that I've been focused on. I really like to open people's eyes up to responsible artisanal gold mining. There are a couple certifications. One is called Fair mind and another one is fair trade, which is, you know, the same fair trade that has a standard for coffee and. Yeah, so they have like a gold.

[D]

Specific standard which says that, like, you have to be an adult.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And you must get paid and.

[C]

Yes. And, you know, they have like environmental considerations in the standards. And so there are mines that are smaller scale mines that get certified under these standards. So I use fairmind myself.

[D]

Did jewelers denote that somewhere? Like, is it on your website?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So we go to the about page or something to find out. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. A couple colleagues and I have also put together like a consumer guide that goes like in depth about gold specifically. We're going to do other materials as well, but it's called the Better Jewelry Project. And our goal is to just like raise consumer awareness about how responsible, artisanally mined gold can be a tool for social and environmental justice.

[D]

Cool.

[C]

Just because it supports the local communities. You know, we pay a small premium when we buy this gold it's fully traced from mine to us. So every step along the way you keep track of it. And then that premium goes back into community development to be spent however that community wishes. You know, if it's social services, if it's environmental, they get to make these community improvements that they really envision for themselves and to really like, benefit from that material in their own lands.

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[D]

Can we talk about gemstones and diamonds? Like, what's the nicest gemstone? What's the kindest to the world?

[C]

Oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, if I had to pick one, I would maybe say ant hill garnets, because there are these garnets that are like, literally pushed up to the surface by ants.

[D]

Anthill. Yes, garnets from ant hills.

[C]

Yeah, literally the ants, like, push them to the surface. So that's gotta be the gentlest.

[D]

That's amazing. Aren't amethysts also pretty easy to find?

[C]

You know, we kind of tend to categorize gemstones into like precious or semi precious, which is like made up.

[D]

An amethyst is just a stupid crystal.

[C]

Yeah, it's like. What does that really even mean? Like, the way we value things is so weird.

[D]

You said it's arbitrary.

[C]

I mean, some of it is arbitrary. I think some of it is. Like, actually because, like, certain gemstones are very rare, but some of them are.

[D]

Just prettier than others, you know, and so they get to be precious, I guess.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Can you give me an example of that? Like, are opals precious?

[C]

Oh, that's a good question, actually. See, and this is another one of those gray areas where I'm like, the word precious is not like perfectly defined in jewelry. But yes, I would say opal. Like, a certain quality of opal would be considered precious. You know, like your top, like, quote unquote precious gemstones would be like sapphire, ruby, which Sapphires and rubies are the same mineral, by the way. Oh, really? They're just. Yeah, rubies are just a specific color of sapphires or of corundum, the mineral.

[D]

Okay, I was gonna ask. I was like Wait, what is sapphire? Corundum.

[C]

Corundum, yeah.

[D]

Okay, okay, so.

[C]

So rubies are the like red and pink variety of corundum. And sapphires are every other color of corundum.

[D]

Right? They come in every color. Yeah, I forgot about that. Okay.

[C]

You know, those are kind of like your big, like, have been valued for a long time. What's an emerald?

[D]

I'm sorry, can we go through the other fine ones? So there's two sapphires that are precious.

[C]

Emeralds are in a family of gems called beryl. And that family of gems also includes, for example, aquamarine, which can be precious, can be less expensive. It's all very murky and weird, not perfectly defined things about how we have come to value certain things because they're pretty, because of their. Whatever it may be.

[D]

Why are diamonds number one? Like, how did they win?

[C]

The short answer to that is a really good marketing campaign back in the day. Like, De Beers no longer holds a monopoly on diamond mining, but they did for a very long time. And they very carefully controlled the flow of how many diamonds they released to make them, you know, have this air of being more rare. And then also. Yeah, just convinced everyone that they needed a diamond engagement ring with a really good marketing campaign. But, you know, diamonds are also practically. They make sense in engagement rings because they're very hard, you know, they can only be scratched by another diamond. Really?

[D]

Is that the same argument for why platinum is used? We didn't even get into platinum yet.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Platinum is more so in the large scale mining category, which I personally don't love. But there are also certifications for large scale mines that can show that they're doing things responsibly. So that does exist.

[D]

Okay, so diamonds got to be number one because of De Beers.

[C]

Basically. Yeah, that's like the quick and easy answer. But that is definitely shifting a lot over recent years with like lab grown diamonds.

[D]

Let's talk about those. Are those. Are those. Are those. I don't even know what the word is. Are those okay?

[C]

Are they okay? It depends.

[D]

Really? Really?

[C]

Yeah. I think that a lot of people want to have like a easy answer. And I totally understand this as a consumer. Like, it's so overwhelming and you want to just have like a clear cut answer of like, well, I don't want conflict diamonds. So, like, if I just get lab grown, is that, you know, automatically ethical?

[D]

Right. Because the conflict diamonds get easily mixed in with non conflict diamonds. Is that correct? I feel like I saw that in maybe that De Beers documentary, but like, it's harder, it's hard to trace a mined diamond, right?

[C]

Yeah, it's, you know, it's actually probably not very hard to. It's just that the industry refuses to really do it. Okay, okay. But that is true. Yeah, you're totally right. That like traceability and that like origin that I've been, you know, talking about is, is just not really there. The fact that people like think that, okay, it's lab grown, so it's automatically ethical. I like to like just get people to pause there for a second because it's not necessarily true. Like, you know, lab grown sounds like really fancy and you're picturing like, I don't know, I used to picture like people in a white coat in a science lab. But you know, they're just big factories and just like any other factories there can be human rights issues.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So just keeping that in mind. And then on top of that, they take a lot of energy to produce. And so then it comes down to do, you know, like, what energy source they're made with. And there are a few companies out there and you know, again, certifications that show that, you know, this lab grown diamond is made with renewable energy. And so while it's not like my choice to focus on lab grown, if people want a lab grown stone, I'm like, okay, great. There's the certification sustainability rated diamonds.

[D]

Is that what it's called? Yeah, sustainability rated diamond.

[C]

Yeah. It's from a company called SCS that has a variety of certifications, but that's their diamond one.

[D]

Also, isn't there mining involved in making lab grown diamonds? Like, don't you have to get the carbon from somewhere?

[C]

You have to have the carbon from somewhere. So yeah, when, when lab grown diamond companies, you know, claim mine free and eco friendly and they have nothing to like back that up. That's some of the most kind of egregious greenwashing that's happening right now, I think.

[D]

Wow is just saying because it's lab grown, it's better. Yeah, that's what I thought.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that's such a common thing. It's like one of the most contentious topics like jewelry. TikTok too. Really?

[D]

Can you, can you speak more specifically? Like, is there an example of a company that's bad in the lab grown diamond world or like an example of product that comes out? I don't know.

[C]

It's these companies that we don't know where the diamonds are made. We don't know how. Like the majority of lab grown diamonds Are still made in China, which like has actually made a lot of strides with renewable energy, but it's still like 60 coal power. And you know, again, if you don't know the origin of the lab grown diamond, like maybe it was made with a whole bunch of coal power.

[D]

Are there any big companies like, like, like, let's go back to Kay Jewelers. Like, am I ruining the planet by shopping their clearance rack? It's not great.

[C]

It depends again.

[D]

Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. But they're not like above board on every. You know, I imagined that to be the case.

[C]

Well, you know, I try not to like single out specific companies most of the time because you never really know the inner workings of a company. Like there could be really great people on their sustainability team that are like really trying to change things, but it's just like a big ship to like change the course of. Yeah, but coming back again to that idea of like origin and traceability. If a company doesn't know that about their materials and about their products, like if they don't have that full traceability, there's no responsibility claims that you can make if you don't know where things are coming from and how they're made. So like most of those big companies, you know, will have like supplier code of conduct and they audit their factories and they go and make sure that everything is according to their supplier policies. They often stop there and they will say like, okay, we're using recycled metals, therefore we don't need to go beyond that in traceability. That's kind of like one of the issues with that recycled lack of definition. It really obscures the origin. And then the origin stops at the refinery. And then the companies have no responsibility for like how that metal reached the refinery.

[D]

Will you walk me through from discovery to my ring and my finger right here? Like what, the life cycle of gold?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

So it starts as a thing in the ground.

[C]

Starts as a thing in the ground. Someone digs it up out of the ground, whether it's an individual or like a giant machine. Then some larger mines will have processing facilities on site where they refine it on site, but most of the time it's then sent to a refiner. And a refiner is basically a factory that does metallurgy. Treats the metals in very specific ways.

[D]

And it's great if it's nearby and you don't have to put it on a cargo ship.

[C]

Right, yeah. Although almost everything in the jewelry industry is going all over the world. Really?

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. It does move a lot.

[D]

So let's Say you dig up gold in South Africa, then you put it on a boat and it goes to.

[C]

Could be like Switzerland.

[D]

Switzerland, okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then it gets refined and turned into like what, like bricks?

[C]

Yeah, it could get turned into little bars, ingots. It depends sometimes on the refiner. They could turn it into little tiny pieces that then are sent to a manufacturer of some kind. So that could be, you know, another factory that makes jewelry. Or it could be an individual jeweler, say, who does more of the metal working themselves. Most often it's probably going to a factory manufacturer.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And then, you know, that can be either cast where you melt the metal and you pour it into a mold that is the shape of the jewelry piece you're making. Or it can be turned into like different shapes and sizes of wire or sheet that you. Then it's called fabrication is another way of producing jewelry. Cut and form and shape wire and solder it together, or sheet and solder it together to construct the piece.

[D]

Or it can get smushed really, really tiny and put inside of Goldschlager.

[C]

Yes. Or in. I was at the store the other day and saw a face mask that had 24 karat gold particles in it. I was like, wow, what?

[D]

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of beauty stuff out there that's like got 24 karat gold. Can we talk about all the uses for gold that aren't jewelry?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

Gold and diamonds. Jewelry is not the only thing. And it might not even be the biggest thing, right?

[C]

It's not the only thing. But I do actually, I do think it's still the slight majority of what gold is used for.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

So yeah, jewelry, electronics, automotive. There's what we could call like investment products like the coins or other little bars.

[D]

That makes me think of that Kristen Wiig parody Golding Gold. The one where she's like washing her face with gold coins. Anyway, I guarantee you'll spend hours caressing.

[C]

Your gold, massaging your gold, washing your face in gold. What time is it?

[D]

Oh, I know.

[C]

Time for you to call Monx and invest in gold. Call today and tomorrow. You'll be enjoying your gold, touching your gold. Actually, like, the majority of all the gold we've mined is just like sitting in bar form in banks somewhere. Oh, yeah.

[D]

Oh, so it's like Fort Knox is a thing that people do, huh?

[C]

That is still very much a thing.

[D]

Like, I want one of those.

[C]

Wouldn't that be nice?

[D]

Or five or ten.

[C]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[D]

Yeah. Who has them, really? Is it the jewelers? Or like the miners who has gold bars. Like, why would weird old men who think the end of the world's coming? Like my dad.

[C]

That too. But okay, yeah. The majority of gold is just sitting in a bank somewhere.

[D]

But is the bank owning it or it's like people.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Oh, the bank owns it. Okay, okay, okay, I get it. I get it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I have probably two more questions, but my last one really is, what's the deal with moissanite?

[C]

Oh, moissanite.

[D]

That's the best clone to diamonds, right?

[C]

Yeah. It's meant to be like a simulant. Right. So like it simulates a diamond better.

[D]

Than a CZ, I guess.

[C]

Maybe better than CZ. Yeah. It does have. You know, CZs and moissanites are. Yeah, both meant to be like diamond simulants. Moissanites have like a rainbow colored sparkle to them. So like the average person, like, if you like learn a little bit, you can usually tell a moissanite and a diamond apart. Whereas lab grown diamonds and natural diamonds are like chemically the same. Right. It is a naturally occurring gemstone, but is one of those that is so rare it literally comes from like meteorites. And it's so rare that if you find a natural moissanite out there somewhere, it's going to be like exorbitantly expensive.

[D]

Then why are they so cheap?

[C]

Because the lab grown versions are really inexpensive to me.

[D]

Oh, okay. Okay. I didn't even know they did lab growns.

[C]

Yeah. Pretty much any moissanite jewelry you see out there is lab made or found.

[D]

But if you can find a real one, then you're. It's better than a diamond. More valuable.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[D]

Wow. I had no idea.

[C]

Like a super, super rare stone.

[D]

Next time Anna joins us, we'll talk pearls.

[C]

Yeah, I'm like, there's probably more things that will come to mind. It would be a pleasure to chat again if you'd like to.

[D]

You'll come back?

[C]

Yeah, I would love to.

[D]

Okay, great.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Do I get a discount on those earrings that I. That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-481488-32324-81488. Talk to me.

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