Fortessa Latifi (3:05)

My name is Fortessa Latifi. I'm a journalist who covers child influencers, mom influencers, and family bloggers.

Jane Marie (3:23)

To start out. And this is just gonna probably sound annoying, but when we talk about this area of research that you do, can you just tell me what you mean by influencers and family vloggers and those sorts of things and maybe talk about a different way of terming that? Cause I feel like it feels very millennial. Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (3:47)

You'Re like, this is a slur. Millennial.

Jane Marie (3:52)

But what do you mean by that exactly? Like, where are people on. I know it's on the Internet, obviously.

Fortessa Latifi (3:57)

Yeah. So this is like mostly TikTokers, YouTubers, some Instagrammers, but I would say that family vloggers, when you talk about that, you're basically talking about these huge accounts that have millions of followers or subscribers where all the content is centered around the family's life.

Jane Marie (4:17)

Meaning, like cute kid videos.

Fortessa Latifi (4:20)

Cute kid videos. Or challenges. Or wake up with me and make breakfast for my six kids. Because there's always like six or more kids. Not always, but often.

Jane Marie (4:31)

Yeah. Can you describe the scale of this industry? It's an industry, correct?

Fortessa Latifi (4:37)

It's an industry. It's a multi billion dollar industry. It's huge.

Jane Marie (4:42)

Okay. And like, how many family vloggers are out there? Do we know?

Fortessa Latifi (4:47)

It's hard to say because there are so many that are. Like there's a scale, right? There's people who have a hundred thousand followers and then there are people who have 5 million subscribers on YouTube and even more than that. So there really is different kind of stratas of this. But I will say that I've been researching and studying and writing a book about this for. For several years now. And still to this day, I will come across people on Instagram or YouTube that have millions of followers that I have never heard of before.

Jane Marie (5:19)

Whoa.

Fortessa Latifi (5:21)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (5:21)

Who are those followers?

Fortessa Latifi (5:23)

Yeah, Good question. So I have been looking into this for my book. And I mean, it's hard to say because there's so many of them, but I have talked to some of them. And some of the people that I talk to are young people who have, like, less than ideal family lives themselves. Kind of in the way that like, maybe you or I or people our age watched Full House when we were kids to like, watch a show where parents apologize to their kids. And that version of this is.

Jane Marie (5:54)

You're so much younger than me. Mine is Brady Bunch. Oh, okay.

Fortessa Latifi (5:57)

So I'm like, full House.

Jane Marie (5:59)

You're like, no, no, I was having sex instead of watching Full House. That's for sure.

Fortessa Latifi (6:03)

Oh my God, I'm dead. Yeah, no, no, Full House was like my vibe for sure. But regardless, the Brady Bunch, the Full House, you know, that kind of, I don't know, family matters, all these kinds. And now people watch these family vlogs to see this idealized version of family.

Jane Marie (6:22)

Mm. I mean, I follow a couple of accounts, I think.

Fortessa Latifi (6:26)

Who do you follow?

Jane Marie (6:28)

I liked that little girl with the curly hair.

Fortessa Latifi (6:31)

Which one?

Jane Marie (6:32)

That has the British mom and the American dad. And she's really sassy and cute and has lots of funny ideas.

Fortessa Latifi (6:41)

I don't think I know her.

Jane Marie (6:43)

No, you do. I don't remember her name. That's how tuned in I am. Yeah, but she's adorable. Trying to think if there's other. I'm not really into the family part. Like, I don't care about people.

Fortessa Latifi (6:57)

You're like, I'm not into family as a concept.

Jane Marie (6:59)

No, I get divorced all the time. You know what I mean? Like, no, not my vibe.

Fortessa Latifi (7:03)

Although sometimes there are family vloggers who go through divorce and then kind of rebrand as like their single mom era. So that's a thing.

Jane Marie (7:11)

I've seen that especially with Mormon ex wives.

Fortessa Latifi (7:15)

Uh huh. Yeah. And many of them got married when they were like, you know, teenagers or in their very early 20s. And now they're like 30 with like four or five kids, and they're just like, I'm single for the first time in my adult life. And yeah, that content is really quite interesting.

Jane Marie (7:30)

It really is. And a lot of them do like Day Long Live videos because those pay a lot. Can we just talk a little bit more about the money? And then I want to hear a little more about you. So how do people make money putting their children on the Internet?

Fortessa Latifi (7:47)

Yeah. All Right. I feel like I'm like, hitting a buzzer. There are several different ways. It depends also, like, which platform you're talking about. So, like, if we're talking about TikTok, if you have over 10,000 followers on TikTok, you get entered into the creator re program in which you get paid per view. So there's that, and there's a similar kind of thing on YouTube. It's called AdSense, where it basically is dependent on how many ads get placed in your video, which is dependent on how many subscribers you have and how many views you have. And so these people get paid for views and for comments and likes and shares and basically engagement. And then there's also sponsored content or brand posts. And so those are the things that you're thinking of when you think of, like, mom influencers. Being like, this sippy cup changed my life as a mom, and everything is so much easier now. And you also could be as happy as me if you bought this sippy cup.

Jane Marie (8:48)

Right?

Fortessa Latifi (8:49)

Yeah. So those are, I would say, the two main ways.

Jane Marie (8:53)

And how good individually can the money be?

Fortessa Latifi (8:56)

Like I said, there's a scale. Right. But people are making so much money in this industry that it almost can feel shocking. Like, I just watched the new Ruby Frankie documentary, and in it, Kevin Frankie, the estranged husband, says that they were making six figures a month at their height.

Jane Marie (9:15)

What?

Fortessa Latifi (9:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jane Marie (9:18)

Oh, I need to go. I have to go. I have some videos to make. I'm so sorry that we have to end our interview right now, but I.

Fortessa Latifi (9:25)

Have a very cute kid from her nap and, like, I don't know, do something.

Jane Marie (9:31)

Six figures a month. Wow. I didn't know.

Fortessa Latifi (9:35)

Yeah. I mean, when you think, like, what is the motivation here? Like, the motivation is money and fame. Well, yeah, but it's easy to think six figures a month. That's bananas.

Jane Marie (9:46)

But also, if you have seven or eight or nine or 10 children, you kind of need money.

Fortessa Latifi (9:51)

Yeah, but do you need six figures a month? I don't know. That seems like a lot.

Jane Marie (9:57)

Can you tell me a little bit about where you live and your one kid?

Fortessa Latifi (10:00)

Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. I have lived here for a few years now. I'm married. I don't even know why I mentioned that, but I'm like, that's the least interesting thing about me. We have a daughter who is not yet a year old, so she's quite little. And it's really interesting to, like, do this work while, you know, being pregnant and then being a mom myself.

Jane Marie (10:29)

Have you Felt the pull to put content out there.

Fortessa Latifi (10:32)

No good. You know, not at all. I feel the opposite pull. I have never put my daughter on the Internet. I. I've seen the back of her.

Jane Marie (10:45)

Head a couple times.

Fortessa Latifi (10:46)

Yes, that's it. The back of her head.

Jane Marie (10:49)

Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (10:49)

Yeah. Like, she's like a celebrity. But I feel this very intense, protective. I don't even know how to describe it, but I'm like, I want her away from the Internet.

Jane Marie (11:02)

Yeah, I put Goldie on a bit when she was really little. But between my ex husband and I, we did have a rule, which is that she's not allowed to, like, go on television, you know, like, be a child star, which is a good rule. It's a weird thing to say out loud because, like, who in the world would ever do that? But he works in Hollywood, so it's adjacent enough that we had to be like, no, I don't want her. I want her to come across meth naturally.

Fortessa Latifi (11:33)

I know. I'm like, I want my daughter to be doing what I was doing. Smoking weed out of an apple.

Jane Marie (11:39)

Right, exactly. Just be normal.

Fortessa Latifi (11:42)

Yeah. Like, have your own weird teenage sh. You know?

Jane Marie (11:47)

Seriously, Where'd you go to journalism school?

Fortessa Latifi (11:50)

I went to the Cronkite school at Arizona State.

Jane Marie (11:53)

Oh, nice.

Fortessa Latifi (11:54)

I am an Arizona trash bag.

Jane Marie (11:56)

You're an Arizona trash bag? What did you say?

Fortessa Latifi (11:58)

Yeah, yeah. No, what was that show with Kristen Bell?

Jane Marie (12:01)

She was in the Good Place.

Fortessa Latifi (12:03)

Good Place, Yeah. And she says, in that show, I'm an Arizona trash bag. And I was like, oh, my God.

Jane Marie (12:09)

I'm a Michigan trash bag.

Fortessa Latifi (12:11)

Oh, well, listen, we're both trash bags in our own way.

Jane Marie (12:16)

Give me a handful of, like, stories that you've researched, and then we can talk about Ruby.

Fortessa Latifi (12:22)

Yeah, sure. So I have written a lot about this whole world of child influencers and mom influencers. I had this story that went viral for Teen Vogue. That was Parent influencers and the Children who Had Their Childhood Made into Content, or something like that, in which I interviewed a kid who grew up on a family vlogging channel on one of these massive YouTube channels. And that was really one of the first stories that not only, like, talked about this world, but talk to the people in this world. And so since then, I've really made it my mission to kind of tell this story and to tell it with the people who are in it and not just, like, you know, talking heads.

Jane Marie (13:05)

What'd you find out about kids who grow up that way?

Fortessa Latifi (13:09)

Well, obviously, there's a range of experiences, and I never want to Paint with a broad brush and say every kid who grew up as a child influencer hates it. Because I fully 100% know that that is not true. But like, this specific story, this person that I call Claire in the story as a pseudonym, she told me that if she could go back the content featuring her, she would take it all offline. She wished none of it existed. YouTube kind of really dominated her relationship with her parents. Like, that was like all that they talked about, all that they.

Jane Marie (13:42)

Can you describe that? Like, what did her days look like?

Fortessa Latifi (13:45)

Well, so she would go to school, which is actually like a lot of family vlogging kids are homeschooled. And there's like the question of why are they homeschooled? Is it to be able to make more content? But this particular child went to school and then she would come home and there would be hours of filming and then the parents would go off and edit. And then there would be kind of these like strategy meetings about the YouTube channel. And were they scripted?

Jane Marie (14:13)

I want to get granular here. Sorry.

Fortessa Latifi (14:15)

But yeah, no, that's okay.

Jane Marie (14:17)

Yeah. So you come home from school and your mom hands you like a bullet points or a call sheet.

Fortessa Latifi (14:24)

Yeah, I don't know that it was like literally scripted in the way that it was like, you say this and then you say this. But there was very much like a. I imagine.

Jane Marie (14:33)

Here's the thing we're gonna do today.

Fortessa Latifi (14:35)

Yes.

Jane Marie (14:36)

You're gonna have a lemon for the first time.

Fortessa Latifi (14:39)

Right. And your reaction is gonna be kind of this sort of vibe or, you know, this is what I'm expecting out of this video.

Jane Marie (14:47)

So they would film for hours, you said?

Fortessa Latifi (14:50)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (14:51)

For how much content?

Fortessa Latifi (14:52)

It's hard to say how much of the filming went into how much content this is. The thing is people are like, oh, it's not that much work. Whatever. It is a lot of work and it is a lot of time.

Jane Marie (15:02)

Yeah, I know that because, like, I need someone to manage my social media and I'm not even putting kids on there. But, like, I know that it's a full time job.

Fortessa Latifi (15:11)

No, it literally is.

Jane Marie (15:13)

So. Okay, so let's go back to the schedule again. Like, how does it play out for Claire in particular, but also broadly speaking, how do their lives look?

Fortessa Latifi (15:23)

Yeah, I mean, the people that I've talked to, it really is like hours of work each day.

Jane Marie (15:29)

Wow.

Fortessa Latifi (15:29)

This isn't just like a. We're popping in and we're just doing this and you know, with these really big channels, like, it is a ton of work and it's interesting because some of the parents, I've interviewed them for my book and they're like, no, no, it's just, you know, a couple of minutes here and there and like maybe that's true for some channels, but like it's a lot of work.

Jane Marie (15:49)

Yeah. And then the editing also takes a long time. So you're filming your children and then you're ignoring your children. Make this your best season yet with nutritious 2 minute meals from Factor Eating well has never been this easy. Just heat up and enjoy, giving you more time to do what you want. Get outside instead of prepping and cooking indoors. Perfect for any active lifestyle. With 45 weekly menu options, you can pick gourmet meals that fit your goals. Choose from Calorie Smart, Protein plus Keto and More. Factor powers your day with satisfying breakfasts on the go, lunches, premium dinners, and guilt free snacks and desserts. It's easy to savor more this spring. Factor Meals pack in the flavor with none of the fuss. In fact, I've gotten Factor Meals because I'm a busy on the go mom. They have so much to choose from. I don't really cook steak at home by myself, so I really go for the steak meals. Like anything with steak. I had steak medallions with mashed potatoes and green beans. I got a surf n turf once that was pretty awesome. There was one with chimichurri. Yum. Anyways, get started@factormeals.com thedream50 off and use the code thedream50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's the code, the dream50 off@factormeals.com theDream50 off for 50% off plus free shipping life doesn't happen biweekly, so why should Payday? The money you earn can be in your hands today with Earnn. Earnn is an app that gives you access to your pay as you work up to $150 per day with a max of $750 between paydays. Just download the Earn in app and verify your paycheck. Then access up to $150 a day as you work and leave an optional tip. Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. Earnin is the app that, when used wisely, is helping millions of Americans to feel self sufficient without falling into debt traps. Maybe you're planning a special night out or you need a last minute gift for a loved one or there's an unexpected trip to the vet. Make Earnin a part of your financial routine and join Earn In's over 4 million customers who say things like when I think about EarnIn, I think about financial stability and security. It gives me a lot of peace of mind. Download Earn it today spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn an app, Type in the Dream under podcast when you sign up. It's really helpful for this show, so type in the Dream under Podcast. Earn in is a financial technology company, not a bank. Remember that cash outs are based on your available earnings. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. There is an option to expedite your transfer for a few fee tips are voluntary and do not affect the service. See the Cash out user agreements for details. Service is not available in all states. I have this nightmare that I never finished college or that someone's going to find out that I don't have the qualifications for this job and I'm like a total fraud. Sometimes even the most successful people experience Imposter Syndrome Check out Mind if We Talk? The newest podcast helping you with tough topics Topics in this episode, licensed therapist Jesu Jo sits down with award winning journalist Jane Marie to explore why so many of us have Imposter syndrome and why success never seems to solve it. Whether you've ever questioned your own success or felt like the odd one out, this episode's for you. Listen and subscribe to Mind if We Talk Wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time, Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details. We just had a law passed here in California where the parents have to set aside some of that money for the kids. And is that because Of Hollywood.

Fortessa Latifi (20:31)

Yeah. So there are three.

Jane Marie (20:32)

Oh, three. Oh, okay.

Fortessa Latifi (20:34)

Illinois was first, Minnesota was second and California was third. And it was a pretty big deal that it passed in California because there are like three other states that like, have the most like kind of influencers. I would say it's like California, Utah and Tennessee maybe. And so that was like a big deal. But yeah, so that just passed in California and yeah, it's a big deal.

Jane Marie (21:01)

So this kind of crosses over with the work we've done on this show about multi level marketing. As you're talking about the regions, you know, what do you make of that? Like, why families in Utah? Why families in Tennessee?

Fortessa Latifi (21:17)

Yeah, I have a whole chapter in my book on this. I got so deep into the Mormon world, but I'll just say that part of it, I think, is that there is this focus in the Mormon faith on proselytizing and on sharing the faith and influencing. And family vlogging is a way to do that. Especially when you tend to be a young parent with a bunch of kids. Because that plays really well on Instagram. To be like a 25 year old with three kids, you know, you're still like young and beautiful and like have light in your eyes. I'm like, I can't relate. Oh, yeah.

Jane Marie (21:58)

We did uncover a few factors, at least in terms of MLMs in Utah. There's very little regulation in some of these places. Do you see the. The laws that have been passed in Illinois and Minnesota and California moving to Utah and Tennessee, or there is actually.

Fortessa Latifi (22:16)

One that is a law that would regulate the child influencer industry, basically, like these other three states. And when it was announced and kind of brought up for discussion for the first time, Sheri Franke was at the hearing and she said something that has stuck in my head. And she said, there is no ethical or moral family vlogger.

Jane Marie (22:40)

Nice segue. Let's talk about the Frankies.

Fortessa Latifi (22:42)

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, here you go on a silver platter.

Jane Marie (22:46)

You start.

Fortessa Latifi (22:48)

So Kevin and Ruby Frankie were a married couple from Utah. They have six children. I consider them to be like family vlogging royalty. Yeah, they were really popular in the early aughts, I would say at their height, they had over 2 million subscribers on YouTube. They were making over six figures a month. And their whole thing came crashing down when Ruby posted a video that mentioned that her son Chad, who was a teenager at the time, had been sleeping on a beanbag for, I think it was seven months as a punishment, like his bed or room had been like taken away. And she posted it, and people were like, wait, this is actually totally insane. And maybe the strictness of her parenting that we've seen in this YouTube channel is actually a little bit darker than that. And so she kind of got. Got canceled for that. And can we talk about what her.

Jane Marie (23:43)

Content was before that?

Fortessa Latifi (23:45)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (23:46)

They're white people, Correct? Let's start there.

Fortessa Latifi (23:48)

They're Mormon. Yeah.

Jane Marie (23:50)

Okay.

Fortessa Latifi (23:50)

They're white. They're Mormon. They're. Some of them are quite blonde in that Mormon way. You know, it was normal family vlogging content. It was challenges. It was like, what.

Jane Marie (24:01)

What do you mean by challenges?

Fortessa Latifi (24:03)

So, yeah, for my book, I have watched so much content, and there's just these kind of silly things where it's like, okay, this one that. That comes to mind, like, this family, this wasn't the Frankies, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had also done this challenge. It was like a thing at the time, but this mom comes in, and she assigns each child a color, or they, like, pick a color out of a hat, and it's like purple, brown, green, whatever. Everyone gets a different color. And the thing is that they have to only eat food that color for 24 hours. Then they go to the grocery grilling all yellow food or all purple food or, you know, so these kinds of challenges kind of like low stakes, silly kind of stuff.

Jane Marie (24:45)

Got it.

Fortessa Latifi (24:46)

Yeah. So there was stuff like that. There was stuff like get ready with me and my six kids to go to church or come with us on this family vacation or, you know, that kind of stuff.

Jane Marie (24:56)

I'd imagine there would a star would emerge. Does that happen of the kids? Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (25:02)

Yeah. So it seems like. And they said this in the documentary, that Chad and Sherry, who were the oldest children, were the stars, and the videos that had them did the best.

Jane Marie (25:13)

Okay. I remember the video where she's beaming about forcing her child to sleep on a beanbag for months, for months. And you can tell he is so uncomfortable.

Fortessa Latifi (25:26)

My bedroom was taken away for seven.

Jane Marie (25:28)

Months, and then you give it back, like, a couple weeks ago.

Fortessa Latifi (25:31)

I don't think our viewers know that.

Jane Marie (25:33)

Sleeping on a beanbag. I was sleeping on a beanbag.

Fortessa Latifi (25:37)

When they posted that video about Chad sleeping on a beanbag, they really lost a ton of subscribers. They lost a ton of followers. They lost a lot of revenue, and things really changed from there. And kind of at the same time, Ruby was getting involved with this woman named Jody Hildebrandt, who sold herself as, like, a therapist slash life coach, but who Sherry later considers to be Their family's cult leader.

Jane Marie (26:04)

Tell me more about her.

Fortessa Latifi (26:05)

So Jody, Jody, Jody, Jody. He was kind of brought into the family as a therapist for Chad, the oldest son, because he was kind of acting out in, like, what seemed to.

Jane Marie (26:20)

Be like, well, because his mom was making him sleep on a. Sleep on a beanbag for seven months.

Fortessa Latifi (26:24)

That might not have helped the situation. When he's talking in the documentary about, like, how he was acting or whatever, I'm like, so you were a normal teenager just kind of being a jerk?

Jane Marie (26:35)

I'll give you the reason why I lost my bedroom. Pretty funny. But now that I look back, I mean, it's pretty depressing.

Fortessa Latifi (26:40)

No, we never told our viewers that.

Jane Marie (26:42)

I woke Russell up at two in the morning and told him that we're going to Disneyland and he has to pack.

Fortessa Latifi (26:47)

And he got up and made his bed all neatly and then packed all.

Jane Marie (26:50)

His clothes in a suitcase. And then he walked out the door. And I'm like, Russell. He's like, why? And he's all happy.

Fortessa Latifi (26:56)

You think it's funny because you think.

Jane Marie (26:58)

It'S funny, Then maybe you need longer without a bedroom. It is. It was not funny. Russell got the big bedroom, and Russell's.

Fortessa Latifi (27:06)

Bigger bedroom also had a bathroom.

Jane Marie (27:07)

But what you guys didn't know was.

Fortessa Latifi (27:10)

Chad didn't get any room.

Jane Marie (27:12)

He didn't get anything.

Fortessa Latifi (27:13)

He was sleeping on the floor in the family room.

Jane Marie (27:16)

It seems almost like we're watching his realization of what's going on in real time on that video where he's like, oh, wait, my mom might be not a good person.

Fortessa Latifi (27:28)

It is wildly uncomfortable, and I think it's just bizarre that Ruby edited that. Like, she chose that content, you know, like, she didn't think there was anything wrong with it, which I think is very strange.

Jane Marie (27:42)

Okay, so Chad's acting out.

Fortessa Latifi (27:43)

Yeah, Chad's acting out. Jodi is brought in as this therapist, and she seems very quickly to take over the family. And she starts doing sessions with Ruby, Sherry, Chad, Kevin. Kevin joins the men's group.

Jane Marie (27:59)

And Kevin's the husband.

Fortessa Latifi (28:00)

Kevin's the husband. He joins the men's group where it's basically like a group therapy session. And Jody has these very strange ideas about truth. And it's hard to even, like, reiterate because they're so nonsensical. But it's very cultish language that just doesn't really mean anything. So we are honing in around teaching and educating and protecting and inviting children or anybody else who's an adult to protect their own spirit. And you have to Teach a child to do that.

Jane Marie (28:30)

Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (28:31)

Because if you don't teach them, they will just grow up selfish. Yeah, that would be the natural.

Jane Marie (28:34)

Yes, exactly. That's really.

Fortessa Latifi (28:36)

That's said. That's well said. Like, that is the natural default. What? I just, you know, it's like going down a slide that's super easy. I just default into being selfish. And many of you know that. Many of you still are selfish. Children come to the world from a position of focusing on self because they need to survive. So there isn't a child that's born that doesn't grab your attention with screaming and crying and letting you know, like, hey, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Right. And if you don't teach them as a.

Jane Marie (28:59)

She'd been known for being a fairly strict parent. Oh, I just remembered the stuffy that she was going to cut its head off.

Fortessa Latifi (29:07)

I don't remember that one.

Jane Marie (29:09)

I forget what the punishment was for. She said something like, if you do that again, I'm going to cut the head off of your favorite stuffy.

Fortessa Latifi (29:17)

If you cut one more thing in my house, I'm going to take the scissors.

Jane Marie (29:25)

Look at me. And I'm gonna cut its head off. Grandma love me so mad. So what are you gonna do? Are you gonna cut anything else?

Fortessa Latifi (29:35)

No.

Jane Marie (29:35)

You promise? Look at mama.

Fortessa Latifi (29:39)

That is bananas. The one that comes to mind for me is when she made a video of her kid who was five years old. Their teacher called and said so and so forgot their lunch.

Jane Marie (29:51)

I remember this.

Fortessa Latifi (29:52)

Yes. Can you bring their lunch? And Ruby was like, no, she needs to learn her lesson and that means being hungry. And I was like, girl, what?

Jane Marie (30:01)

She was again beaming about this, saying, I won't give you lunch anymore if you keep forgetting to bring your lunch bag. But like a five year old. Come on.

Fortessa Latifi (30:10)

I just got a text message from Eu's teacher and she said that Eve.

Jane Marie (30:18)

Did not pack a lunch today and can I bring a lunch over to the school.

Fortessa Latifi (30:23)

I know that her teacher is uncomfortable.

Jane Marie (30:26)

With her being hungry and not having.

Fortessa Latifi (30:28)

A lunch and it would ease her discomfort if I came to the school with lunch.

Jane Marie (30:35)

But I responded and just said Eve.

Fortessa Latifi (30:39)

Is responsible for making her lunches in the morning. And she actually told me she did pack a lunch.

Jane Marie (30:45)

So the natural outcome is she's just.

Fortessa Latifi (30:47)

Going to need to be hungry. And hopefully, hopefully nobody gives her food and nobody steps in and gives her a lunch. You forget your lunch. It's not a big deal.

Jane Marie (30:58)

Or just go to hot lunch, but.

Fortessa Latifi (30:59)

It'S just like hunger as a punishment is Extremely big.

Jane Marie (31:03)

Yeah. But she got worse.

Fortessa Latifi (31:05)

Yeah. Things devolved. So they had that cancellation and she just takes over the family and eventually Chad is kicked out. I think he was 17 when he was kicked out. Sherry, the eldest daughter, is told that she's not really to contact the rest of the family anymore. And Kevin is, quote, invited to leave and basically.

Jane Marie (31:29)

Oh, I like that phrasing. Sorry. Anyone who is listening and needs to break up with somebody. That's a new way of doing it. You're invited to leave.

Fortessa Latifi (31:39)

Yeah, but it just shows like the culty language, you know.

Jane Marie (31:42)

Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (31:43)

So he's invited to leave and he moves out. And then it is Sherry, Jody and the youngest four kids on their own.

Jane Marie (31:53)

And then things go terribly wrong.

Fortessa Latifi (31:55)

Yeah. Then things take a turn. That is. I don't think that anyone expected even people who saw the beanbag video or the Keeping the lunch from the kid video. Like, Ruby is arrested for aggravated child abuse and she's found guilty. So is Jody. And I mean, it's just horrific stuff. Like the kids were like, the two youngest kids were like emaciated and had like burns on their wrists and ankles. I believe from being like tied down, it was just like, it was just truly, truly horrible, horrible stuff.

Jane Marie (32:46)

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Fortessa Latifi (33:26)

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Fortessa Latifi (33:43)

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Fortessa Latifi (34:58)

Hi, I'm Frances Fry.

Jane Marie (34:59)

And I'm Anne Morris and we are the hosts of a new TED podcast called Fixable.

Fortessa Latifi (35:04)

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Jane Marie (35:10)

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Fortessa Latifi (35:12)

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Jane Marie (35:17)

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Fortessa Latifi (35:20)

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Fortessa Latifi (35:26)

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Fortessa Latifi (35:34)

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Jane Marie (35:39)

Acast.com what happened with the Frankies? Can anyone see that coming because of their involvement in family vlogging? Like is it connected?

Fortessa Latifi (35:59)

You know, it's hard to say. I think that one of the reasons that you Jodi was so drawn to the Frankies in the first place was because they had this big platform and because she craved that platform for her own work. And so there is the question of would Jodie and Ruby have become so intertwined if Ruby hadn't had this platform to kind of offer?

Jane Marie (36:23)

And that seems like a broader problem, correct? In that the followers of these family vlogging channels are a particular set? For the most part, yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (36:35)

I mean it's hard to say because first of all there's so many followers. But I've tried to do some digging into the demographics but even that is difficult because these are self reported demographics, you know.

Jane Marie (36:47)

So like I feel like I've seen some of your reporting on some of these Channels where it's mostly creepy old men following children.

Fortessa Latifi (36:56)

Yeah, well, the New York Times did this bombshell investigation called something like a marketplace of girls sold by moms and stalked by men. I just, like, can't get over it. And everyone should go read that investigation. But basically what they found was that there are groups of pedophiles online who congregate and share child influencer content amongst themselves.

Jane Marie (37:23)

So the. The connection between Ruby and everything that went awry there is mostly that the fame of her family attracted this cult leader.

Fortessa Latifi (37:33)

I think. So I think when people point to the Frankies, and I've seen discussions online of like, who's gonna be the next vlogging family that's gonna go down like the Frankies? And I'm like, first of all, God willing, no one, because that was so horrific. And second of all, I think when we talk about what's going on behind the scenes of family vlogging families, I. That it is nothing like what was happening behind the Frankies. Like, I think we do need to talk about what life is actually like for these kids. But this is hopefully incredibly rare.

Jane Marie (38:05)

Yeah. I would imagine if you're making content all day and editing at night and this is your full time job, your connection with your kids is maybe not great. Like, there's no downtime where you're just like snuggling or making cookies and you're not filming.

Fortessa Latifi (38:22)

Yeah. The young people that I've talked to who are raised by influencer parents say that it's hard to feel like their parent is their parent and not their boss.

Jane Marie (38:33)

Yeah.

Fortessa Latifi (38:33)

Because it's a business, you know, like, think about the Frankies, think about other families. They're making six figures a month. This is a business. This isn't like a fun little hobby, you know.

Jane Marie (38:42)

Would you equate it with, like, child actors?

Fortessa Latifi (38:45)

I do think there are some similarities to child actors, but I think the wild thing is, is that there are even fewer protections for child influencers than there are for child actors. And not that there are perfect guardrails for child actors, but there are some and there are much fewer for child influencers.

Jane Marie (39:04)

So, yeah, all of this being so public, there's been another story recently about a family vlogging channel, the Stauffers. So they were kind of a similar.

Fortessa Latifi (39:15)

Yeah, they were. They were family vloggers. They were also from Utah. They were also Mormon. They created similar content, and then they started making content around a possible adoption. Hi, guys, and welcome back to my channel. Today, Jim and I have a very Big surprise and secret that we want to share with you guys. Jim and I have decided that we are.

Jane Marie (39:38)

We're gonna adopt from China.

Fortessa Latifi (39:40)

We're gonna be adopting a little boy from China. And we do plan on taking y'.

Jane Marie (39:44)

All with us through the journey and all of the stuff along the way. We did get some imaging done recently on our son. We got a CT scan done in China. And his diagnosis is neurological. So it pertains to his little brain.

Fortessa Latifi (39:58)

And we don't care what's wrong with him.

Jane Marie (40:00)

The only need that our little boy.

Fortessa Latifi (40:02)

Has is he needs his mama not.

Jane Marie (40:04)

To be scared, but needs his mama to come on and get him home so that he can have a nice family that really, truly, really cares about him. And if anything.

Fortessa Latifi (40:14)

And they went and adopted a son who they named Huxley. And. Sorry, it's like the most vlogger name ever. Huxley. It's so on.

Jane Marie (40:27)

Grand Mormon names are just really special. Favorite name is Geronimo. It is a Native American name. Hey, Geronimo.

Fortessa Latifi (40:36)

Another name that I love is Mazarin.

Jane Marie (40:38)

We are doing a little fundraiser for little Huxley. We have a thousand piece puzzle.

Fortessa Latifi (40:43)

So they adopt Huxley and they start making content around him and, you know, bringing him into their family.

Jane Marie (40:53)

Reorganizing the shoe closet for me.

Fortessa Latifi (40:54)

Eh, I couldn't do my day without him. Our connection as a family has gotten so profoundly amazing. Is easily one of my favorite people in the entire world.

Jane Marie (41:05)

I think he's definitely my son. Aren't you? Are you my boy? Yeah. You like fast cars too? Like rad. It's so cool, guys. Yeah. Thumb guard never worked.

Fortessa Latifi (41:15)

He was so smart.

Jane Marie (41:15)

He was either really mad or he pulled it off.

Fortessa Latifi (41:18)

No, he always figured out how to pull it off.

Jane Marie (41:20)

Pulled it off, but usually was very mad before that.

Fortessa Latifi (41:22)

If he didn't, they start making content around Huxley's medical diagnoses and how those diagnoses are making their lives difficult.

Jane Marie (41:31)

Not having a good day.

Fortessa Latifi (41:32)

We never tell you guys the truth.

Jane Marie (41:34)

And that's why you don't see how.

Fortessa Latifi (41:36)

On the box, he's probably having a meltdown.

Jane Marie (41:40)

Are you done? He's just having a bad day. He's a grumpy day today. You know, with international adoption, sometimes there's unknowns and things that are not transparent on files and things like that. And once Huxley came home, there was a lot more special needs that we weren't aware of.

Fortessa Latifi (41:57)

And then eventually Huxley disappears from the content and people are like, where did he go? And then that leads to this tearful video where the mom basically says, he's no longer in our family. There's not an ounce of our body that doesn't love Hugsley. With all of our beans. There wasn't a minute that I didn't try our hardest.

Jane Marie (42:19)

Do I feel like a failure as a mom?

Fortessa Latifi (42:21)

Like, 500%.

Jane Marie (42:23)

We've never wanted to be in this position. It's really narcissist. Is it? We truly love him.

Fortessa Latifi (42:31)

So that became a viral story about an influencer rehoming their adopted son. But the content was still up and she was still making money from it, but wasn't his parent anymore.

Jane Marie (42:44)

Yikes.

Fortessa Latifi (42:45)

Those are the two main ones that come to mind for me that I've really kind of turned the tide for people.

Jane Marie (42:51)

And you think it's turning. I mean, laws, obviously, that are being passed to protect the children, but in terms of audience interest, is that changing?

Fortessa Latifi (43:02)

It's hard to say because you'll, like, watch this family content and there'll be, like, tons of comments where people are like, what are you doing? This isn't right. These kids can't consent. And, like, that wasn't even a discussion before. But at the same time, some of them are more popular than ever and they're making a ton of money. So it's like. Like the cultural feeling towards them has changed, but that hasn't changed their audience or their power as influencers.

Jane Marie (43:27)

Say more about that. You mean there's more negative chatter around it?

Fortessa Latifi (43:31)

Yeah, but I feel like people are still watching. Like, maybe it's hate watching, but they make the same money whether you're hate watching or watching out of actual joy or whatever.

Jane Marie (43:42)

What do you make of this? Like, why are people doing this?

Fortessa Latifi (43:45)

Honestly, when I'm scrolling and I, like, see a cute kid doing a funny thing, I just want to watch because their kids are funny and cute. But also there is an actual career path for people who want to be family influencers, and it's quite lucrative, like we were saying.

Jane Marie (44:02)

But is there any longevity?

Fortessa Latifi (44:04)

Yeah, well, some child influencers have already reached the age where they've become, like, influencers in their own right as young adults. Do you know Brooklyn and Bailey?

Jane Marie (44:14)

No. Thank you.

Fortessa Latifi (44:15)

They're also Mormon, also from Utah. They are 25 now, and they were child influencers on their mom's YouTube. That was incredibly popular. And now, because they're Mormon, they're both married and young, and one of them has had a child. And I thought it was really interesting because when they announced the birth and they have, like 10 million followers on Their, like, joint Instagram account. They have a joint Instagram account.

Jane Marie (44:42)

Gross.

Fortessa Latifi (44:43)

Yeah. And they put an emoji over the kid's face and I thought that was fascinating. And they still have not showed his face.

Jane Marie (44:54)

But I wonder what the story is there.

Fortessa Latifi (44:56)

I wonder what the story is there.

Jane Marie (44:59)

And what grandma thinks.

Fortessa Latifi (45:00)

Yeah, yeah. Cause it's like kind of. I mean, it can feel kind of like an indictment. Right? Like, oh, you did this to. I mean. But on the other hand, they're incredibly successful. They have all these businesses and they like. I mean, they're doing better than I am. You know.

Jane Marie (45:15)

What got you interested in this?

Fortessa Latifi (45:18)

When I was a teenager, it was the time of like 16 and pregnant and Teen mom on MTV. And I just was so fascinated about what it's like to live your life in front of cameras like this. And I kept watching and I actually just wrote a story for the cut on how it's been 16 years and teen mom is still on and some of the kids are turning 16 that were born on the show.

Jane Marie (45:45)

Whoa.

Fortessa Latifi (45:45)

I just like started looking around and thinking this is kind of duplicating itself. But it's happening in influencer kids where they don't have producers, but they kind of do. But the parents are the producers.

Jane Marie (45:59)

What's wrong with us? Go.

Fortessa Latifi (46:03)

I mean, listen, how much time do you have?

Jane Marie (46:05)

All the time in the world.

Fortessa Latifi (46:07)

I think that we want to make.

Jane Marie (46:11)

Money and there's fewer ways to do so.

Fortessa Latifi (46:15)

Exactly. In a world where there are fewer and fewer paths to living like a middle class life to enter the viral lottery, like, if you win, you're set, you know, and so I don't blame people for entering. Like, I think that I have a lot more sympathy for these parents and families who are involved in this industry than people expect from me. But I do.

Jane Marie (46:40)

I mean, same. It's not the individual.

Fortessa Latifi (46:44)

No, it's not. It's the system. And that's what I always loved about your reporting because Arizona and Michigan are. Seem to be very similar. And all of the girls that I went to high school with are either nurses or in pyramid schemes or both. And it, it just makes me so sad because I know, like, what they're trying to do and I know that it's not going to happen. And that's how I feel about family vloggers. When I see people, like, trying to get to that height because it's so rare to get to that height where it really changes your life. But there's always the chance that you do. Right. It really does remind Me of what you've said on the dream before, that like 99% of people lose money in pyramid schemes or whatever, but there is that 1%, you know.

Jane Marie (47:28)

Well, especially with parent bloggers going viral. You better be on your best behavior.

Fortessa Latifi (47:34)

You better be. That's the thing is, like, I can't imagine opening up my parenting to people to have opinions about.

Jane Marie (47:43)

Yeah, no, I mean, we are perfect, you and I, nailing it.

Fortessa Latifi (47:48)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (47:49)

Maybe we should start a family blog channel. We're both in la.

Fortessa Latifi (47:52)

Let's do it. And my husband has always said that that would be like the perfect villain arc for me is that I, like, become a journalist and then I like, have a baby and then I'm like, see the dollar signs and become one myself.

Jane Marie (48:06)

Like, he face turns into the cash register emoji.

Fortessa Latifi (48:09)

I mean, it. Sometimes it does. When I'm interviewing these people and they're telling me how much money they're making, I'm like, oh, fuck.

Jane Marie (48:15)

Yeah, Seriously, I took the wrong path. Are there commonalities between the most popular family vlogger accounts? Like, what are the bullet points there for what makes something successful?

Fortessa Latifi (48:28)

Yeah, so the most popular family vloggers have a lot of kids, like at least four, but more is better. They are often quite religious. It helps if they're blonde. And this also goes into, like, how Mormon family vlogging is. But yeah, the best thing is having, like, younger parents or parents who started having kids young and then just didn't stop.

Jane Marie (48:55)

Can you tell me about your book?

Fortessa Latifi (48:58)

Yeah, so my book is called, like, Follow, subscribe, and it's coming out through Simon and Schuster in not that long, so stay tuned for pre order stuff. But it is about all of this. It is about family vloggers and how Mormon they are, and it is about the teen moms of TikTok and the kids of the original mom bloggers. And I talk to everyone involved in the industry and literally I feel like every time I do a podcast, my tongue is like bleeding from biting it so hard because I'm trying to, like, keep all of my stuff for my book. But, like, you guys are.

Jane Marie (49:34)

But also, don't worry about that. Yeah, a family vlogger wouldn't, you know.

Fortessa Latifi (49:39)

I mean, they wouldn't worry. They. They are worried about things that I cannot even comprehend.

Jane Marie (49:46)

Well, congratulations on your book.

Fortessa Latifi (49:47)

Thank you.

Jane Marie (49:49)

Do you feel guilty making money off of family vloggers?

Fortessa Latifi (49:52)

Oh, my God. No one's ever asked me that question. I don't know. I don't think so, because I think it's kind of the same way that people are like, why do we have to talk about influencers at all? And it's like, well, because they have influence, you know, and like family vloggers, they're a multi billion dollar industry and we do need to be talking about them because they do have influence and, and sway. And they are also, I think, a bellwether for like how this country is moving right now, you know, more conservative and more to the right and.

Jane Marie (50:24)

And more individualistic.

Fortessa Latifi (50:26)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And very like bootstraps and make your own bread and have your own farm and that kind of stuff. So, no, I don't feel guilty. And I think that we need to pay attention to them and take them serious.

Jane Marie (50:44)

Thanks for coming on.

Fortessa Latifi (50:45)

Yeah, thanks for having me. This was so fun.

Jane Marie (50:47)

Also, thanks for having the very best name I've ever heard in my life.

Fortessa Latifi (50:50)

Oh, my gosh. Well, you're welcome.

Jane Marie (50:55)

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere, produced by me and Dan Gallucci. Our Tip line is 323-248-1488. If you want to tell your story.

Fortessa Latifi (51:24)

McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's.

Jane Marie (51:26)

Tender juicy and its own sauce.

Fortessa Latifi (51:29)

Would you look at that? Well, you can't see it, but trust.

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Me, it looks delicious. New McCrispy strips now at McDonald's. Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

Fortessa Latifi (51:43)

I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse with family.

Jane Marie (51:46)

Cannolis and spins mean everything. Now you want to get mixed up.

Fortessa Latifi (51:51)

In the family business.

Jane Marie (51:52)

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