Death Of Gawker, And An Ego

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Death Of Gawker, And An Ego"
Host: Jane Marie
Guest: AJ Delerio
Release Date: May 2, 2025
Podcast: The Dream by Little Everywhere

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1. Introduction to AJ Delerio and His Gawker Experience

Jane Marie opens the episode by introducing her guest, AJ Delerio, highlighting a pivotal moment about a decade ago when AJ's career at Gawker was derailed. AJ recounts the aftermath of the infamous Hulk Hogan lawsuit backed by Peter Thiel, which not only cost him his job but also plunged him into personal turmoil as a new mother, financially strained, and separated from his husband.

Jane Marie [02:20]: "The guy we're going to hear from today was one of the people I was most pissed at. But over time, he's become, well, almost a completely different person."

2. The Gawker Trial and Its Impact

AJ delves into the specifics of the 2012 Gawker trial, explaining how the publication of Hulk Hogan's sex tape led to multiple lawsuits for invasion of privacy and emotional distress. Despite initial dismissals in federal court, the case eventually settled for a staggering $31 million, resulting in Gawker's bankruptcy.

AJ Delerio [03:09]: "In October of 2012, when I was editor of Gawker, I published a story about Hulk Hogan sex tape and then posted about a minute of it on the site. And illegally, I have to add that all the time."

The financial and emotional strain from the trial cost AJ his position at Gawker, thrusting him into a precarious personal situation.

3. Navigating Resentment and Personal Growth

While discussing the fallout, AJ reflects on his lingering resentments, particularly towards certain journalists, and how these negative feelings have been a persistent challenge in his journey toward recovery. He shares an anecdote about a confrontational call with an NPR reporter, illustrating the deep-seated frustrations he harbors from that period.

AJ Delerio [08:07]: "But that's the voice I hear in my head, right? Whenever, like, there's a negative voice, I hear his voice."

Despite these challenges, AJ emphasizes his efforts to reduce the importance of these resentments over the years, acknowledging the role he played in the situation.

4. Early Life, Education, and Struggles

AJ provides a candid look into his adolescence and early adulthood. Growing up in Churchville, Pennsylvania, he describes his high school experience as relatively average, feeling like an outsider despite being popular in his own right. His desire to escape Pennsylvania led him to attend LaSalle University, though he yearned to attend the University of Tampa instead. This period was marked by depression and a lack of fulfillment, prompting AJ to fake alcoholism as a coping mechanism.

AJ Delerio [18:43]: "Stayed at home, yeah. I had the same experience, and I was so depressed about that."

His fabricated struggles with alcohol led him to seek therapy and eventually enter rehab, despite not being an actual alcoholic at the time. This period of his life was characterized by instability and a search for purpose.

5. Pursuing a Career in Writing and Early Achievements

Despite personal challenges, AJ pursued his passion for writing, interning at a recording studio and contributing to local newspapers. He shares a humorous yet humbling story about contributing to "Chicken Soup for the Golfer's Soul," where his work was featured alongside minimal compensation, only realizing his inclusion when his credit card was declined at a bookstore.

AJ Delerio [22:26]: "That's how sad ass it was because I went to like the Barnes and Noble... And my credit card was declined."

His move to New York marked a significant transition, where he sought to emulate the bold editorial styles of colleagues like Jeff Coyen and Greg Gutfeld. These experiences shaped his approach to journalism, emphasizing sensationalism and boundary-pushing content.

6. The Allure and Consequences of Ambitious Journalism

In New York, AJ became enamored with the audacious editorial direction of publications like the New York Press. He narrates the ambitious yet ultimately destructive projects he spearheaded, such as the mock "Assassination of George W. Bush" newspaper, which led to his immediate dismissal when it was deemed too controversial.

AJ Delerio [27:09]: "I put out a newspaper. The paper that he did put out was 50 reasons why the Pope should Die."

These endeavors, while creatively fulfilling, were unsustainable and exacerbated his struggles with mental health and substance abuse.

7. The Road to Recovery and Rebuilding

Following the Gawker ordeal and subsequent legal battles, AJ spent two years facing legal repercussions and sought rehabilitation once more. Today, he is a father to three children and runs The Small Bow, a recovery newsletter and podcast focused on sobriety, mental health, and expanding the definition of recovery.

AJ Delerio [35:21]: "I run The Small Bow is a recovery newsletter slash podcast. It's about sobriety, recovery, mental health, like, you know, lots of stuff."

AJ discusses the transformation from his tumultuous past to his current stable life, emphasizing the importance of consistency, accountability, and finding new avenues for ambition that do not compromise his well-being or relationships.

AJ Delerio [37:15]: "It has been as creatively fulfilling as I think I've been searching for my whole entire life."

8. Balancing Ambition with Sobriety

AJ reflects on the delicate balance between maintaining ambition and sustaining sobriety. He acknowledges the temptation to revert to his former self, driven by the desire to achieve greatness without the destructive behaviors that previously defined his career.

AJ Delerio [36:54]: "The thing that worries me more being sober is not like, I'm not going to drink or do drugs. Probably not. Right. But I don't know how to be ambitious sober without being an asshole."

This introspection highlights his ongoing journey to harness his creative drive positively while nurturing his personal relationships and responsibilities as a father and husband.

9. Reflections and Advice for Others

Towards the end of the conversation, AJ shares poignant insights derived from his experiences. He emphasizes that even amidst public disgrace and personal loss, it's possible to rebuild and find purpose. His work with The Small Bow allows him to connect with others facing similar struggles, offering support and understanding.

AJ Delerio [42:12]: "If I could tell one person not to kill themselves because their job or their public life blew up, I mean, that's pretty good purpose, I think."

10. Conclusion

Jane Marie wraps up the episode by commending AJ's resilience and the transformative path he has taken. Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the complexities of ambition, the consequences of unchecked actions in the media industry, and the redemptive power of recovery and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes

• AJ Delerio [08:07]: "But that's the voice I hear in my head, right? Whenever, like, there's a negative voice, I hear his voice."
• AJ Delerio [37:15]: "It has been as creatively fulfilling as I think I've been searching for my whole entire life."
• AJ Delerio [42:12]: "If I could tell one person not to kill themselves because their job or their public life blew up, I mean, that's pretty good purpose, I think."

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Key Takeaways

• The High Stakes of Media Journalism: AJ's experience at Gawker underscores the volatile nature of media careers, where sensationalism can lead to both fame and downfall.

• Personal Struggles and Recovery: The episode offers an unfiltered look into AJ's battles with depression, substance abuse, and the path to sobriety, highlighting the importance of mental health support.

• Redefining Success: AJ's transition from seeking chaotic ambition to fostering a stable, purpose-driven life illustrates that success is multifaceted and deeply personal.

• Impact of Public Scrutiny: The devastating effects of public backlash and legal battles are explored, emphasizing the need for resilience and support systems in the face of adversity.

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This episode of The Dream provides a compelling narrative of downfall and redemption, offering listeners valuable insights into the human side of media personalities and the enduring quest for personal fulfillment beyond professional success.

Transcript

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie, and this is the dream. I've been dying to talk to today's guest for years. You see, about 10 years ago, a thing happened that for a time, kind of crushed my American dream. I was working at Gawker, which was a popular media outlet writing about makeup and feminism and terrible fashion. Life was great when a scandal erupted involving Hulk Hogan, who was backed by right wing bajillionaire Peter Thiel, who were suing Gawker. And it led to a really expensive trial and I lost my job in the fallout. I was a new mom. I was fairly broke. I was separated from my husband and I was pissed. The guy we're going to hear from today was one of the people I was most pissed at. But over time, he's become, well, almost a completely different person.

[AJ Delerio]

My name's AJ Delerio, born in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. You know what's in Bucks county right now? New Hope. And New Hope. I don't know if you've noticed that New Hope is like the new hotspot where like, celebrities are posting up. It's supposed to be like the kind of like the mini Hamptons right now in Pennsylvania. In Pennsylvania. Because it's Like, Bradley Cooper's got a place there. Is that model lady's dating or used to date Irina. Right, right.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

Her family has, like, some property there. So it's like I grew up near there, but I wasn't in the ritzy part. I was in this place called Churchville, Pennsylvania, which is kind of like the more middle class, ish section of that.

[Jane Marie]

Can you just sum up in two sentences what that trial was like? What happened? Just quickly. We don't need to linger on it.

[AJ Delerio]

In October of 2012, when I was editor of Gawker, I published a story about Hulk Hogan sex tape and then posted about a minute of it on the site. And illegally, I have to add that all the time. And, yeah, we were sued for invasion of privacy and emotional distress several times for that. Was thrown out of federal court a lot. And then it landed in Florida, and we lost $115 million. And I think it settled for $31 million. Bankrupted the company.

[Jane Marie]

It cost me my job.

[AJ Delerio]

Did it?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

Sorry.

[Jane Marie]

It's okay. All right, so you're here to talk to me about. And I've been talking about work a bunch on the show, and just I know that you had quite a dramatic transition in your career. You famously were kind of at this illusion of the version of Gawker that was as it had been because Peter Thiel decided that he had it out for everyone. You really have to talk about that?

[AJ Delerio]

No, I always have to talk about that. And I enjoy talking about it because it's been nine years, and every year that I talk about it, there's a different version of it.

[Jane Marie]

So what's the version? Right now.

[AJ Delerio]

Here'S an interesting change. A reporter friend of mine who was not. We were talking about kind of mental health, and she asked me, like, what I had learned from that, and she wasn't doing it for a quote or anything like that. And I gave her an answer that was a total lie.

[Jane Marie]

Oh.

[AJ Delerio]

And I didn't realize it because I felt like I needed an answer. I felt like I needed to give her an answer. And I forget exactly what I said. But it wasn't true. The true answer is, I don't know. Right. And I think that's as honest as I can be about that. Like, the other thing that I found that was notable was anytime Hulk Hogan is in the news, I'll get, like, a text message from people. Are you okay? Like in the Republican National Convention, he's ripping his shirt off like that. You know, I get the text. Are you watching this? And I'm like, no, what's happening? It's just like, oh, never mind. Like, what?

[Jane Marie]

You're just your boy on TV again.

[AJ Delerio]

Which are just like the worst text in the world. Like, you know, just like, it's like people are saying bad things about you right now, but I just want to let you know. But also not talk about it with you. Right? So. And I would get those sort of texts, or Peter Thiel's in the news. I'll get those texts. Or like, you know, there was the. The Matt Damon, Ben Affleck movie that supposedly happened. Anything like that. It would be like, you know, are you okay? And. And I. And I am. Because I have no real emotional sort of response to either one of those guys. Like the two, you know, main villains. I think of this story most people would consider. The dude that triggers me is an NPR media reporter who was very, I would say, kind of ungenerous with majors of his coverage about it. And I had one conversation with him long after the. The trial had ended, maybe just like in 2017. And we had just. Julianne and I had just had our first son. And he called me. He was calling me to fact check something. And he was kind of pushy, a little condescending because he had covered the trial pretty extensively and I didn't know who he was. He acted like I should know who he was. And so at the end of it, he was just like, oh, so what are you up to now? Stuff like that. And I. And I said, you know, oh, I'm doing a book, and we just had a baby. And he went, huh? Like, he sounded dismayed. Right?

[Jane Marie]

Like, you're not supposed to have children.

[AJ Delerio]

Yes. Like, I mean, that was the tone that I was picking up. Right? Was that he. Whatever version of me that he felt was fit the narrative that he wanted to put out there, I was breaking it. But he was also like, so this is what he says after the end of the call. Take care of that baby.

[Jane Marie]

Fuck you. I'll delete this. But who is it?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[AJ Delerio]

But that's the voice I hear in my head, right? Whenever, like, there's a negative voice, I hear his voice.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my. I'm so sorry we need to deprogram you.

[AJ Delerio]

But because it's always fun, I tell this story and, like, you know, everybody's just like, you know, I'm sorry Peter Thiel did to you, like, whole guy. I'm like, I don't care about those guys at all.

[Jane Marie]

There's this other guy, this guy.

[AJ Delerio]

But I mean, and then anybody who knows who he is is basically like, that guy. That's the guy that's keeping you up at night.

[Jane Marie]

I get it, though.

[AJ Delerio]

That's the negative voice in your head.

[Jane Marie]

I fully get it, though.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah. Take care of that, baby. But that's the interesting part, is just like, the people that I have resentments against from that ordeal are mostly reporters, right. Which is a bad thing, because obviously, I mean, I think journalism is very important, especially at this time, but, man, it's just like if I had a list, and sometimes I do have a list, right. And I have to go every year I try to make them less important in my life. But I think that going. Getting the amount of coverage that I was getting, and this was partially my fault, too. I mean, well, all of my fault. Those are your words.

[Howie Mandel]

Yes.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Are you laughing there?

[AJ Delerio]

Yep. Lawyers for the Hulk, referring to Delario's.

[Jane Marie]

Taping deposition in which she sarcastically answers. The only celebrity sex tape he wouldn't consider newsworthy would be that involving a child.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

The fact that Mr. Golaya was taped having sex with his best friend's wife wasn't the noose hook for your piece, was it?

[AJ Delerio]

No, not necessarily. And you put that out in the.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Public because you believed it was true and it was interesting, right?

[AJ Delerio]

Yes.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

And it didn't really matter whether or not it was a morbid and sensational prying people's lives for its own sake.

[AJ Delerio]

That didn't matter. You did it. No, I was seeking. I was really putting the hopes of saving my career in the hands of other people. So I would sit down with interviews very prematurely. The thing that was so heartbreaking, I did this Esquire story, and there was a full year after the trial, and I was in that situation where they put a lien on my banking account for, like, $200 million. I just started dating Julianne kind of like officially. Officially, at that point, because my life is a bit chaotic and not a great catch at that time. Right. But, like, they approached me and I knew the reporter a little bit because he was kind of a Philly guy. And they were going to, like, kind of do something about what it's like to have, you know, $200 million lien and these awful people coming after you. And I agreed to it. And I agreed to it initially where I was just. I didn't want to talk about my recovery, my sobriety, every sort of childhood trauma that I was working through. Like, you know, all the. All the hits. Right. And he called me back and he said, you know, they'll. They'll do this, but I think we should talk about, like, your personal life and what you're going through there. And I'm like, okay, that sounds good. Right?

[Jane Marie]

Even though you already had decided you weren't going to.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, because I was so desperate to basically get the coverage that I was like, oh, well, I'll sell that.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And one time, and one of these is going to come out pos, like, in a positive light.

[AJ Delerio]

So. And the thing that I was rehabilitate my image. Well, this is really determined about was because there were good things happening in my life. You know, as much as, like, you know, there were. There were bad things. I mean, I was moving to la. I mean, you know, I did fall in love. I fell in love. I mean, we were having a baby. I. I was like, you know, working part time at another publication, like, I was trying to kind of make the best out of the situation. And the story came out and none of that was in there. My life was ruined, as they said, like, and it was just, you know, none of the stuff that was good was in there.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

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[AJ Delerio]

As a kid, teenager, I was very lost, I would say, like I went to. When I in high school, I had a really good high school experience in terms of just, you know, popularity wise and you know, I had a very good close group of friends. But I was kind of on the outskirts of it. Like, you know, I was basically the turtle of my friend group. Basically. Right. Using an Entourage reference here for everyone. Go check it out on HBO Max 20th anniversary, I believe. But meaning like my friends were just like, you know, the high school president, the captain, the basketball team, the football quarterback and like.

[Jane Marie]

And you're the jester, sort of.

[AJ Delerio]

I was just not those guys. Right. But I felt like I got, I got the, you know, I got the vapors of basically being around those people. So I kind of felt like I was popular maybe more so than, than I actually was. It was on prom court and like that. But everybody went on to do their own thing either, you know, in, in college and played sports in college and things like that. And I ended up going to LaSalle University in Philadelphia and my parents thought that, you know, I was, I didn't want to go to that school. I wanted to go away. I really wanted to go away. And I got into University of Tampa. Not a great student obviously, but I wanted to go there so badly and my father took me for a tour and just kind of laughed throughout the whole entire process because it was just, you know, they had, their dorms were down so they had to stay in a mobile home for like I Mean, it was a little great impression.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

But it was also very expensive for out of state people too. Right. So I didn't have a lot of options, but. Well, I just wanted to go away. And then I ended up commuting to the school I didn't want to go to.

[Jane Marie]

From home.

[AJ Delerio]

From home.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so you stayed at home?

[AJ Delerio]

Stayed at home, yeah. I had the same experience, and I was so depressed about that. Like during that period of time when everyone. It was like October, and people come home from college. Right. To visit their parents for the first time. And I remember seeing all my friends come back from college and they're wearing their big sweatshirts and everybody's got like the freshman 15. But it just seems like. I mean, it was like. Like Navy pilots coming home from the war just in terms of the way that they were themselves coming into their own as adults. And I was essentially having that sense of just like, no identity, purposelessness kind of put me in this really awful depression, but I didn't know how to express that in any sort of way that would result in anything. So instead I faked alcoholism and spent my second semester till you make it. I just took. I just went to my parents liquor cabinet, drank a lot, didn't go to class. My dad called me from work and I was just like, dad, I'm drunk. And then I stopped going to school and I went to a therapist, basically took a. And he said, you should go to rehab. And I was like, yes, great, great. Clearly, I wasn't an alcoholic yet, but I was trying to. So you know how dumb it is to basically be some. Like, every time I would go and they would put you in groups and there'd be like some. Some grizzled guys with, like, real super bad problems.

[Jane Marie]

They're like, what's your show today? And you're like, I would have to make it up.

[AJ Delerio]

I would have to make it up. I would have to, like, concoct a story based off of everyone else's rough stuff. And every single time the counselor would be like, where would you get your beer from? Because I looked like 12, too. I was like, oh, man. I got fake ID and parents, brothers. And it's like, so how much were you drinking? And It'd be like 160 cases, whatever. Lots of. Yeah. Just making stuff up.

[Jane Marie]

But did you have any idea, outside of pretending to be an alcoholic, what you wanted to do with your life?

[AJ Delerio]

I knew. This is the thing. When I went to. When I was. They did take you to meetings, and I had a Sponsor. And I was like, you know, I'm not. This isn't for me right now, but someday I can tell real alcoholic, this is in the cards.

[Jane Marie]

I need a little more practice.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, right. No, but I wanted to be. I wanted to work in the music industry. I wanted to be. So I started like interning at recording studio. I mean like I was doing, I was running errands for like Dishwalla, like and you know, and. But it was just. I felt like I was part of something and, and it was just so invigorating to me and I just, I wanted something to feel that way. Right. So also at the same time I was kind of stringing for like local newspapers too.

[Jane Marie]

And audience stringing is like you get sent out to do some reporting, cover.

[AJ Delerio]

Like local pie eating contests and city council meetings and things like that. And I was doing record reviews too. But at that time I got into Chicken Soup for the Golfer's Soul. No, it was a big deal when I was like 22, 23 and.

[Jane Marie]

Were you a golfer?

[AJ Delerio]

No, my dad was. So I kind of wrote it from the perspective of him and his dad. So I guess it was kind of like I was.

[Jane Marie]

You were like a ghostwriter for this book?

[AJ Delerio]

No, I just, it was basically I was like a fabulist. I was like the Stephen Glass of Chicken Soup with a Soul, basically. But my dad was very touched, you know, and he was excited. And they had a nice little book party when it came out because it was a big party.

[Jane Marie]

Did you get this gig?

[AJ Delerio]

I didn't get the gig. I submitted this story and they pick a, a handful of stories and you get $250 and three copies of Chicken Soup for the Golfer Soul. It's like your, your reward. And this is how sad ass it was because I went to like the Barnes and Noble, like nearby my parents place in Horsham, Pennsylvania. It was like the Willow Grove Mall. And I went there and it was like Father's Day and Chicken Soup for the Soul. Like big deal. So a giant kiosk, Chicken Soup for the Golfer Soul. And I wanted to buy it, right? And I wanted to buy it and I go to buy it and in my head I'm playing out the scenario where the 19 year old kid behind the calendar is just like, oh, I love this book. And then I would say, well, I'm in this book. And he would say, oh my God, come and sign these and do a reading here. And instead this is what happened. My credit card was declined.

[Jane Marie]

I was just gonna guess, dude, I was just gonna interrupt you.

[AJ Delerio]

And then I was like, should I tell him I'm in the book and maybe you'll give it to me for free?

[Jane Marie]

Eventually, AJ Moved to New York and started writing. Not for huge outlets, but not small ones like he'd been doing back home. And he was happy.

[AJ Delerio]

I knew that. I was just like, oh, this is where I want to be, right? Like, I never had that amount of certainty about anything in my life. Like, remember, it was like all the buildup of kind of like being lost and purposeless, you know, like the pivotal moments in terms of just like, you know, where I became kind of just like the editor that I would be at, like, Deadspin and Gawker was when I, like, I said, you know, there was New York press, was Jeff Coyen, Taibbi was there. It was like that sort of stuff, right? And I went to Lit. Remember that bar Lit? So I went there with Jeff Coyen, and he introduced me to Moon Rocks, Molly, something like that.

[Jane Marie]

And lit was a bar where you could do cocaine at the bar.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, that was one of them. Just the greatest. Aw. Coolest bathroom that he.

[Jane Marie]

So gross.

[AJ Delerio]

Bathroom out of central casting, basically. So gross.

[Jane Marie]

I never did any of that at lit, just for the record.

[AJ Delerio]

I mean, I used to hang out there. I never did, like, the fun stuff, except we took Molly at the bar. And he had, like, this. He had like. He was editor in chief of the New York press. And, you know, at the time, this was like, you know, second GW Bush post, like, you know, 9, 11, Iraq war. Like, things are really just not like this right now. But we're amped, right? And he comes to me with, like, this. This leather sort of briefcase that I think, like architects used to have, right? And he was going to show me their next issue. And he's just like, you know, you can't tell anybody about this, but this is what we're going to do. And he shows me it, and it's basically a mock up. It's called the Assassination of George W. Bush. And they're covering it like it's a real event, right? Like, every single story. And like, you know, and then fake Taibbi op Ed basically calling, saying that this is a good thing and stuff like that. And I'm like, wow, you can do this. And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. And, you know, the Molly's hitting and weird DJ music happening. Lit and just like. And I'm like, oh, man, I've just entered this realm that I really. This. Because this is gonna get people in trouble. And, boy, did it ever. And so the publisher of the New York press refused to put that newspaper out, gave Bisley the option to, like, you know, do a. Another version of it or lose his job. And this is just like, one of the coolest things that I think I've ever experienced. I put out a newspaper. The paper that he did put out was 50 reasons why the Pope should Die.

[Jane Marie]

And that was okay.

[AJ Delerio]

Nope. Got fired right away.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[AJ Delerio]

Like, $10,000 went, you know, to, like, overseas for a bit and just like, kind of just dusted everybody, right. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, I didn't know people like this actually existed, Right?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

But I was just like, well, I want to be that guy. I want to be a version of that guy. Right. So big editorial influence. Another guy who was running Maxim UK at the time was a gentleman named Greg Gutfeld.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[AJ Delerio]

And who many may know as like a Fox News talking head right now. But Greg Gutfeld, like, read Maxim UK and it was like the greatest magazine I'd ever seen in my entire life. Because, you know, you're supposed to put ladies in productive clothing. This is for men's and stuff like that. And he would do disobey everybody. Right. It would run the magazine he wanted to do. I liked people that were getting called to the principal's office basically constantly.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

I wanted that energy. And I was just like, if I'm ever in charge of a publication, I'm going to run it like these guys. So I got like, the Gawker job, and that was kind of just, you know, full on. I'm probably going to work at Gawker a year. Right. But I was just like, I want to do it exactly like Jeff Coyon did it. I want to do it exactly like Greg Gawker.

[Jane Marie]

I'm going to do gonzo journalism on a blog.

[AJ Delerio]

I'm going to be like, I'm going to cause spectacles all the time and I'm going to do a lot of drugs and I'm going to just, like, be a slob and a mess. And I'm going to start wearing visors. That was my visor era, like the poker kind. Yep. I mean, golf visors and stuff like that. But I mean, also at the same time, you know, all of the success I was having, my credit rating was really bad, and I still had, like, no money. And, you know, I was really invested in the Persona that I had created. But I mean, also just like, you know, I was still a manic depressive too. So I mean, constantly broke, not showering a lot, drunk a lot. You know, I'm medicated now, so it's a lot better. But you know, I would just be one of those people, you know, who'd. I got a great idea. This is what we're gonna do. Like, gonna blow this out and blah, blah, blah, and just like that. And then we're gonna install a roller rink inside our apartment. It's gonna be cool and like, I think I can get a pet octopus. I think we're gonna get packed. I think that's what I'm gonna do.

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[Jane Marie]

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[AJ Delerio]

This is the thing that I did at Gawker was that like it was Thanksgiving and I was kind of bored and I went to Cairo to go cover the Arab Spring. And I didn't tell my boss or my employees or my parents.

[Jane Marie]

You just got on a plane and.

[AJ Delerio]

Met my friend out there.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, I would do that. That's something I'd do.

[AJ Delerio]

But I was like, you know, I wasn't really prepared to cover. It was pretty intense. Some shit was popping at that time.

[Jane Marie]

Did anyone care?

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You get in trouble?

[AJ Delerio]

No.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[AJ Delerio]

No, no, no, no. Like, that's the thing that was great working for Nick Denton. That as much as just like, you know, I was doing like that stuff. He was kind of amused by it. Right. In some ways, you know, so, okay.

[Jane Marie]

So you are in that environment for a while. You, you, there's, you leave eventually and then there's this whole meltdown with the lawsuit.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And. And are you ever worried that the excitement, drive for excitement or drive for creating chaos and spectacle is going to come back in some way?

[AJ Delerio]

I was really a definition of failing upward at that point. So I kind of left. I quit Gawker almost like in the middle of the night too. Basically. I went and had my annual review of Nick with Nick and we have that and he's like, you know, I know we've had kind of our differences like that, but I'm going to give you this much of a raise and a higher editorial budget and I really look forward to working together for like, you know, 2013. And I'm like, I quit.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God. Too much pressure or something.

[AJ Delerio]

No, I just thought it would be cooler that way. I didn't have a job lined up or anything. I was just like, make this fun.

[Jane Marie]

The fun didn't last too long because that trial came about a couple years later and consumed AJ and then I.

[AJ Delerio]

Was in legal jail for two years.

[Jane Marie]

And you went to rehab again?

[AJ Delerio]

I did, yes. Well, yeah, it was like I went like two more times.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. Can you just tell us, like, what your life looks like now? You're a dad to three.

[AJ Delerio]

Three? Yeah. Three. Yeah. I run the Small Bow is a, you know, a recovery newsletter slash podcast.

[Jane Marie]

It's about sobriety.

[AJ Delerio]

About your sobriety, recovery, mental health, like, you know, lots of stuff. It's. We're expanding the definition of recovery.

[Jane Marie]

Great.

[AJ Delerio]

Like we say. But yeah, I mean, it's been as creatively fulfilling as I think I've been searching for my whole entire life. So I kind of did land on that a little bit.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, it's a great newsletter and everybody should subscribe to it.

[AJ Delerio]

I appreciate that.

[Jane Marie]

I read it religiously. Do you feel. I know you said that you're really appreciating what you get out of the Small Bow now. Do you feel like a different person or do you feel like you're still trying to. I think that's what made me curious about your story is like, it feels so different. Like when I found out you had kids.

[AJ Delerio]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And I didn't know you.

[AJ Delerio]

I only knew you take care of that baby.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[AJ Delerio]

Fuck.

[Jane Marie]

What? You know, like, I got scared that it was so drastically different, your life was so drastically different that it just made me nervous.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah. Different stakes at that point. Right?

[Jane Marie]

Completely different. But also like your day to day, every hour is different. Every hour's different than it used to be.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

The way you spend every minute of your day seems quite different than it was at the height of the Gawker era. And I hope you don't miss it. But like, do you feel like a different person?

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, of course. The thing that worries me more being sober is not like, I'm not going to drink or do drugs. Probably not. Right. But I don't know how to be ambitious sober without being an asshole. Right. And why would you make that fix?

[Jane Marie]

Because who cares if you're an asshole, I'm an asshole.

[AJ Delerio]

It becomes something that's self destructive for me.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. Okay.

[AJ Delerio]

And there's a self destructive element to that that I worry about. Right.

[Jane Marie]

Meaning like an asshole to your. To Julianne or.

[AJ Delerio]

No, to just be chasing something else that will kind of just like apparently make Me feel good, but I will do anything to get it right. And. And kind of forgetting that there are other people in my life who I need to respect.

[Jane Marie]

Right?

[AJ Delerio]

And sometimes that when I was ambitious during that period of time, I was not right. I mean, I ran over people.

[Jane Marie]

Well, ruthless ambition is not something to aspire to, I don't think.

[AJ Delerio]

No, it's not. But I mean, I don't know what good ambition was. Like, the Small Bow is now a company and I have a CEO and we have, you know, other product people, like people working on it and stuff like that. And you know, there. There are times where I'm just like, no, man, I want it all back. I can do this better. I can. Blah, blah, like, you know, just that. Yes, right? And that's not good for anybody. That like, really infects the whole entire room of my life, my household. Yell at my dogs more like, whatever. I mean, it's just I have a.

[Jane Marie]

Girlfriend who said something five years ago that just, I mean, jaw on the floor for me. She was like, you know what? I've decided. I've decided I'm not gonna do anything. Great.

[AJ Delerio]

Man. That's the wisest thing I think I've ever heard.

[Jane Marie]

It killed me. I was simultaneously so sad and so jealous that she could say that out loud. It was like, she's like, yeah, I just think, yeah, I did all the stuff I want to do. I'm just gonna raise my kids and be a wife and have a regular job. And I was like, what?

[AJ Delerio]

It's like when I started the Small Bow, I had no means of consistency. I always blew deadlines. I was always unreliable. I would always kind of just like when I was at the height of my drugs and alcohol stuff, like Wednesday at like 3:00, I could function for like two, two hours, maybe get all done then sometimes it would be incredible. Some. Most times not so much, right? But like, you know, the reason the small bill goes out on like, you know, Tuesday at 4:15 and then Sunday at this time. And I was like, if I just hit these deadlines all the time, I don't really care about the quality, right? Sometimes it just. Just fucking mail it in. B minus is good enough. As long as it comes out on Tuesday at 4:15, I know I'll get to an A eventually. But it has to because I got to show up, right? Okay, like, and that's it. And I just, like, stick to that. Like, if I'm consistent and I care about it, good things could happen. But, like, there's there's other stuff, and I. Oh, I just talked about this with. With someone. I forget where I was just like, yeah, I've won a National Magazine Award. Like, I don't even like journalism. I mean, I just. I just want it so I can stand up there and say, like, hey, suck my dick.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, exactly.

[AJ Delerio]

But, like. But I mean, that's. I still. I still have that. It just doesn't, like, run my life anymore. And I mean.

[Jane Marie]

And are you happier for it?

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's just, like, because I did. I did achieve. I know that there is no end in sight for those things, right? That if I do, like, you know, Gawker was my dream job, like, more miserable than I've ever been in my entire life. If I make $300,000 a year, everything will be fixed. I'm not a $300,000 a year person. I spend it poorly. Right. You know, some people are not made for that, and I am not that type of person. But, I mean, I think that, like, a lot of the. And what's been great for recovery for me is it's given me that other thing to be ambitious about. Like, if I know that I put in this amount of work or talk to this many people, or I can go. I have, like, a. What they call a tool chest, right, to kind of access when I get real crazy about stuff and then, like, it comes down, I stay sober because I do it for other people mostly. And it's not even like, you know, that I don't consider the small bow service, but I do take it very, very seriously when I'm asked to sponsor someone or something like that or any sort of 12 step. Yeah, I like it. You know what has been the greatest gift of that trial and all that, like, horrible shit is that when people go through public disgrace, like, I'm kind of on the. The call list. Oh, you know, I've had, you know.

[Jane Marie]

You've seen some cancellations.

[AJ Delerio]

Yeah, cancellations. Pretty mean. It's just like, if. If, you know, if I could tell one person not to kill themselves because their job or their public life blew up, I mean, that's pretty good purpose, I think, right? But I mean, that only happened because of all the crappy shit that happened. Right. That was the greatest part about that, is that I can have that conversation with people because, you know, the guy that basically I could. The only guy that I talked to during that trial is James Fry. And everything that I would. And we had known each other a little bit, but, I mean, he became like my go to guy to talk to when I was just like, oh my God, I'm like having this thing. And then he would tell me this awful thing that happened to him because it was just like, you know, as powerful as like Hulk Hogan and Peter Thiel were at that time. They were not as powerful as Oprah Winfrey who basically kind of just brought him to this level and then just completely burned. But he got through it, right? And like one of the most interesting things that he told me was just like, you know, this will be around you your whole entire life, but you can still build a life, right? It doesn't. That doesn't have to clear up before you can start to live your life and build your life. There are good things that can happen.

[Jane Marie]

The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere. Thanks to everybody who took the time to fill out that humongous survey we were talking about. If you have tips for us, just call 323-248-1488. And if the voicemail thing cuts you off, just call back. Okay by.

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[AJ Delerio]

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