Do Cults Like Us? - The Dream | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Summary

Episode Summary: "Do Cults Like Us?"

Release Date: June 7, 2025
Host: Jane Marie
Guest: Jane Borden, Author and Journalist

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of "The Dream", host Jane Marie engages in a profound conversation with author and journalist Jane Borden. They delve into the intricate parallels between historical religious groups, particularly the Puritans, and modern-day cult-like behaviors prevalent in American society.

America's Foundational Cult: The Puritans

Jane Borden introduces a compelling thesis: America was essentially founded by what today would be classified as a cult—the Puritans. She asserts, “America was pretty much founded by what people today would call a cult” ([04:03]). These Puritans were a high-control, doomsday-oriented group whose rigid beliefs and practices laid the foundational cultural and moral frameworks of the United States.

Historical Context and Puritan Influence

The discussion traces the origins of the Puritan movement back to the Reformation. Borden explains how the Puritans sought to purify the Church of England from Catholic practices, emphasizing a direct relationship with God without intermediaries. This desire for religious purity and societal control is a recurring theme throughout American history.

Religious Rigidity and Control: Borden details the strict behavioral norms imposed by the Puritans, including prohibitions against swearing, gossiping, and even interrupting preachers. “They could safeguard the true church to this new spot” ([10:36]), she notes, highlighting their intent to maintain doctrinal purity.
Doomsday Mentality: The Puritans’ belief in an imminent apocalypse fueled their motivations to establish a utopian society. Borden remarks, “They thought the apocalypse was coming any minute now” ([07:23]), illustrating their urgency in creating a community aligned with their eschatological views.

Evolutionary Perspectives on Group Behavior

Borden connects the Puritans' group dynamics to evolutionary psychology, explaining that human cooperation and social norm enforcement are deeply ingrained traits. She states, “Social norm policing being one example. So a social norm is anything, any practice that a group all agrees they're going to do in order to cooperate better” ([23:13]). This evolutionary trait facilitated the rise of cooperative societies but also set the stage for cult-like behaviors.

Modern-Day Cults and Their Puritan Roots

The conversation shifts to contemporary examples of cults, drawing direct lines to Puritan influences:

Church Universal and Triumphant: Led by Elizabeth Clare Prophet in the '80s and '90s, this group emphasized building bunkers in anticipation of doomsday, reflecting the Puritans' apocalyptic fears. Borden notes, “They wanted the end. They wanted to see it” ([26:35]).
Oneida Community: A 19th-century group that practiced "complex marriage" and believed in self-delivery to New Jerusalem, bypassing divine intervention. Borden explains, “Cult leaders have to control every aspect of everyone's lives” ([38:07]), highlighting the extreme control exerted over members.
Amway and Wealth Cults: Borden links the Puritan work ethic to modern-day glorification of wealth, arguing that the belief “work was holy, if work is holy, then the fruits of that work are not bad” ([31:12]) has fostered a culture where financial success is seen as a divine signifier of being chosen.

Cults in Popular Culture and Society

Jane Marie and Borden discuss the saturation of cult themes in modern media, suggesting that societal obsession with cults serves as a collective defense mechanism. Borden comments, “When you understand how something works, you can't be as afraid of it” ([46:22]), emphasizing the importance of awareness and education in mitigating cult influence.

Mechanisms of Control and Exploitation

Borden elaborates on the control mechanisms employed by cults, both historical and modern:

Behavioral Control: From public punishments like pillory and branding to psychological control through indoctrination and thought policing. “They had plans to help neighbors if they showed up while, you know, the sky was raining flames” ([26:35]).
Social Isolation: Cults often isolate members from broader society to maintain control and reduce external influences. Borden notes, “Cult-like thinking thrives in isolation, whether that's a group being isolated or people being isolated from one another” ([49:14]).

Exploitation in Contemporary America

The hosts examine how today's wealth disparity and social isolation create fertile ground for cult-like exploitation. Borden argues that income inequality and chronic lack of resources heighten vulnerabilities, making individuals more susceptible to manipulative groups promising salvation or enrichment.

MLMs and Financial Exploitation: Multi-Level Marketing schemes often mirror cult structures, exploiting members’ desire for financial success while perpetuating wealth hoarding among the elite.

Strategies to Combat Cult-Like Behaviors

In conclusion, Borden suggests several strategies to address and reduce cult-like exploitation:

Resource Allocation: Addressing income inequality can reduce the desperation that makes individuals susceptible to cult recruitment.
Community Building: Fostering strong, supportive communities counteracts the isolation that cults exploit.
Education and Awareness: Understanding the historical and psychological mechanisms of cults empowers individuals to resist manipulation.

Notable Quotes

“America was pretty much founded by what people today would call a cult.” – Jane Borden ([04:03])
“Cult-like thinking thrives in isolation, whether that's a group being isolated or people being isolated from one another.” – Jane Borden ([49:14])
“We're obsessed with the vigilante story. That's a very American, puritanical, radical Protestant story.” – Jane Borden ([20:25])

Conclusion

"Do Cults Like Us?" offers a thought-provoking exploration of how historical religious fervor has shaped modern American values and behaviors. By dissecting the Puritan legacy and its manifestation in contemporary cults and societal norms, Jane Borden provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the underlying forces that perpetuate cult-like exploitation today. The episode serves as both a historical analysis and a call to action for building more resilient and equitable communities.

Thank you for listening to this episode of "The Dream." For more insightful discussions, subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform.

Transcript

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Jane Borden (1:45)

My name is Jane Borden and I'm an author and journalist. I was a religious studies major in college and thought I wanted to do that be an academic. But I figured I ought to take a break from school first. So I moved to New York before applying to programs and then accidentally fell into the improv comedy scene and eventually creative writing and I got a job at a magazine. And anyway, all these, you know, decade or more later, my two paths kind of came back together because I've written a book about religion and I tried to make it funny.

Jane Marie (2:23)

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. So, you know, we talk about cults a lot here on the show in America. At the moment it seems like every other TV show and podcast is about a cult. High control groups, the media saturation makes it feel like this is a new phenomenon, like something unique to right now. But go back 10, 20 years. Cults 30 years. Cults, cults, cults 40 years. Wow, so many cults. 50 years. When you get to 80 years ago, those are like the fun to me. I mean, people probably died, but they were like the fun kind of hippie cults. 100 years ago, those cults really looked like cults. Like, those were the ones where they were doing seances and stuff. So it's been up and down and up and down. Cults are popular. Cults are not popular. Cults are popular. Cults are not popular since the beginning of this country. Today's guest posits that the reason we can't get away from this sort of thinking is because it's what built America. I wanted to talk to you. I invited you here because I love talking about the Puritans. I do. It's one of those groups where I can go on a Wikipedia poll. Okay, so let's back up. Tell me first of all, the thesis of your research.