Do Cults Like Us?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Do Cults Like Us?"

Release Date: June 7, 2025
Host: Jane Marie
Guest: Jane Borden, Author and Journalist

---

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of "The Dream", host Jane Marie engages in a profound conversation with author and journalist Jane Borden. They delve into the intricate parallels between historical religious groups, particularly the Puritans, and modern-day cult-like behaviors prevalent in American society.

America's Foundational Cult: The Puritans

Jane Borden introduces a compelling thesis: America was essentially founded by what today would be classified as a cult—the Puritans. She asserts, “America was pretty much founded by what people today would call a cult” ([04:03]). These Puritans were a high-control, doomsday-oriented group whose rigid beliefs and practices laid the foundational cultural and moral frameworks of the United States.

Historical Context and Puritan Influence

The discussion traces the origins of the Puritan movement back to the Reformation. Borden explains how the Puritans sought to purify the Church of England from Catholic practices, emphasizing a direct relationship with God without intermediaries. This desire for religious purity and societal control is a recurring theme throughout American history.

• Religious Rigidity and Control: Borden details the strict behavioral norms imposed by the Puritans, including prohibitions against swearing, gossiping, and even interrupting preachers. “They could safeguard the true church to this new spot” ([10:36]), she notes, highlighting their intent to maintain doctrinal purity.

• Doomsday Mentality: The Puritans’ belief in an imminent apocalypse fueled their motivations to establish a utopian society. Borden remarks, “They thought the apocalypse was coming any minute now” ([07:23]), illustrating their urgency in creating a community aligned with their eschatological views.

Evolutionary Perspectives on Group Behavior

Borden connects the Puritans' group dynamics to evolutionary psychology, explaining that human cooperation and social norm enforcement are deeply ingrained traits. She states, “Social norm policing being one example. So a social norm is anything, any practice that a group all agrees they're going to do in order to cooperate better” ([23:13]). This evolutionary trait facilitated the rise of cooperative societies but also set the stage for cult-like behaviors.

Modern-Day Cults and Their Puritan Roots

The conversation shifts to contemporary examples of cults, drawing direct lines to Puritan influences:

• Church Universal and Triumphant: Led by Elizabeth Clare Prophet in the '80s and '90s, this group emphasized building bunkers in anticipation of doomsday, reflecting the Puritans' apocalyptic fears. Borden notes, “They wanted the end. They wanted to see it” ([26:35]).

• Oneida Community: A 19th-century group that practiced "complex marriage" and believed in self-delivery to New Jerusalem, bypassing divine intervention. Borden explains, “Cult leaders have to control every aspect of everyone's lives” ([38:07]), highlighting the extreme control exerted over members.

• Amway and Wealth Cults: Borden links the Puritan work ethic to modern-day glorification of wealth, arguing that the belief “work was holy, if work is holy, then the fruits of that work are not bad” ([31:12]) has fostered a culture where financial success is seen as a divine signifier of being chosen.

Cults in Popular Culture and Society

Jane Marie and Borden discuss the saturation of cult themes in modern media, suggesting that societal obsession with cults serves as a collective defense mechanism. Borden comments, “When you understand how something works, you can't be as afraid of it” ([46:22]), emphasizing the importance of awareness and education in mitigating cult influence.

Mechanisms of Control and Exploitation

Borden elaborates on the control mechanisms employed by cults, both historical and modern:

• Behavioral Control: From public punishments like pillory and branding to psychological control through indoctrination and thought policing. “They had plans to help neighbors if they showed up while, you know, the sky was raining flames” ([26:35]).

• Social Isolation: Cults often isolate members from broader society to maintain control and reduce external influences. Borden notes, “Cult-like thinking thrives in isolation, whether that's a group being isolated or people being isolated from one another” ([49:14]).

Exploitation in Contemporary America

The hosts examine how today's wealth disparity and social isolation create fertile ground for cult-like exploitation. Borden argues that income inequality and chronic lack of resources heighten vulnerabilities, making individuals more susceptible to manipulative groups promising salvation or enrichment.

• MLMs and Financial Exploitation: Multi-Level Marketing schemes often mirror cult structures, exploiting members’ desire for financial success while perpetuating wealth hoarding among the elite.

Strategies to Combat Cult-Like Behaviors

In conclusion, Borden suggests several strategies to address and reduce cult-like exploitation:

• Resource Allocation: Addressing income inequality can reduce the desperation that makes individuals susceptible to cult recruitment.

• Community Building: Fostering strong, supportive communities counteracts the isolation that cults exploit.

• Education and Awareness: Understanding the historical and psychological mechanisms of cults empowers individuals to resist manipulation.

Notable Quotes

• “America was pretty much founded by what people today would call a cult.” – Jane Borden ([04:03])
• “Cult-like thinking thrives in isolation, whether that's a group being isolated or people being isolated from one another.” – Jane Borden ([49:14])
• “We're obsessed with the vigilante story. That's a very American, puritanical, radical Protestant story.” – Jane Borden ([20:25])

Conclusion

"Do Cults Like Us?" offers a thought-provoking exploration of how historical religious fervor has shaped modern American values and behaviors. By dissecting the Puritan legacy and its manifestation in contemporary cults and societal norms, Jane Borden provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the underlying forces that perpetuate cult-like exploitation today. The episode serves as both a historical analysis and a call to action for building more resilient and equitable communities.

---

Thank you for listening to this episode of "The Dream." For more insightful discussions, subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform.

Transcript

[Narrator]

BetterHelp online therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

What if I told you that right now millions of people are living with a debilitating condition that's so misunderstood, many of them don't even know that they have it. That condition is obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the chief clinical officer of NOCD. And in the 25 years I've been treating OCD, I've met so many people who are suffering from the condition in silence, unaware of just what it was. OCD can create overwhelming anxiety and fear around what you value most, make you question your identity, beliefs and morals, and drive you to perform mentally and physically draining compulsions or rituals. Over my career, I've seen just how devastating OCD can be when it's left untreated. But help is available. That's where NOCD comes in. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for obsessive compulsive disorder. Our licensed therapists are trained in exposure and response prevention therapy, a specialized treatment proven to be incredibly effective for OCD. So visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call with our team. That's nocd.com.

[Jane Borden]

My name is Jane Borden and I'm an author and journalist. I was a religious studies major in college and thought I wanted to do that be an academic. But I figured I ought to take a break from school first. So I moved to New York before applying to programs and then accidentally fell into the improv comedy scene and eventually creative writing and I got a job at a magazine. And anyway, all these, you know, decade or more later, my two paths kind of came back together because I've written a book about religion and I tried to make it funny.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. So, you know, we talk about cults a lot here on the show in America. At the moment it seems like every other TV show and podcast is about a cult. High control groups, the media saturation makes it feel like this is a new phenomenon, like something unique to right now. But go back 10, 20 years. Cults 30 years. Cults, cults, cults 40 years. Wow, so many cults. 50 years. When you get to 80 years ago, those are like the fun to me. I mean, people probably died, but they were like the fun kind of hippie cults. 100 years ago, those cults really looked like cults. Like, those were the ones where they were doing seances and stuff. So it's been up and down and up and down. Cults are popular. Cults are not popular. Cults are popular. Cults are not popular since the beginning of this country. Today's guest posits that the reason we can't get away from this sort of thinking is because it's what built America. I wanted to talk to you. I invited you here because I love talking about the Puritans. I do. It's one of those groups where I can go on a Wikipedia poll. Okay, so let's back up. Tell me first of all, the thesis of your research.

[Jane Borden]

Okay, so the basic idea is that America was pretty much founded by what people today would call a cult. The Pilgrims and the Puritans, separate groups, but more or less believed the same things. And they were a high control doomsday group. And their ideas didn't go away. They became the foundation of secular American culture. And so I trace those ideas through history in order to protect, hey, everyone, this is us. And we don't acknowledge it. The reason I want to point it out is because I think this latent indoctrination is being used against us by con artists and demagogues and cult leaders and dictators who wish to activate us to do things that serve them. And it's very easy to push our buttons because we are all still indoctrinated in the Puritans doomsday beliefs.

[Jane Marie]

Can we go way back?

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

How did they get here? Where were they from? Who were these people?

[Jane Borden]

Okay, so it started with the Reformation, more or less. I mean, if you're gonna pick somewhere to start, that's as good a place as any. Yep, nailed the theses to the church door. The idea was that we don't need all of these go betweens. You know, we can have a relationship with God without your bishops and your capes and all of the mediators. There was more to it than that, but the Puritans really globbed onto that part of it.

[Jane Marie]

Like, you can have a church in your home.

[Jane Borden]

So they wanted to worship the way Jesus and the apostles had as simply as possible. So the Puritans still had a church structure, and they, along with the Church of England, wanted to do away with Catholicism. And the Pilgrims were like, you haven't purged the church enough. You haven't gone far enough. They were separatists and so that's why they were basically run out of town. So England was like, you guys are knobs, we don't like you. They got spit on, you know, called names. They were persecuted from time to time, depending on who was in charge. Because Queen Mary made England Catholic again. And then when Elizabeth took the throne it became Protestant again. So it was touch and go.

[Jane Marie]

I'm sensing fear toward the Puritans from the establishment. Probably like they had reason to. Not like this group.

[Jane Borden]

Well, they were being jerks. They were really critical. They basically said everyone in the Church of England was going to hell. And all the Catholics, they were obnoxious, they were haters and all the Catholics. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

So everybody.

[Jane Borden]

Well, it gets a little messy because they believed in predestination. So God had already chosen who would and wouldn't be saved. But presumably they were the ones who were going to be saved because they were most righteous. And how could you be righteous if you didn't have that inner election? You know, you were supposed to look within and you were supposed to spend a lot of time self investigating, which is something I explore in the book, this history of being obsessed with self investigation to look for worthiness. Right. And they would literally make themselves sick with self investigation trying to figure out whether or not they were among the elect, the chosen.

[Jane Marie]

Sick like in a stress way or in a, like. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

[Jane Borden]

I mean, you know, mind body connection. We understand that a lot more today. There was no theater, there was no dancing. I mean Shakespeare made fun of the Puritans and they weren't liked. So eventually they got out of dodge in part because they knew they weren't wanted the persecution that we hear a lot about, but also because they thought the apocalypse was coming any minute now. They were a doomsday group and they thought it was going to start in England. They thought God's fury was going to land first in England because England hadn't done enough to purge the Church of the Antichrist. They believed the Pope was the Antichrist and the Catholic Church was like the arm of Satan.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, this is a dorky question, but was Henry VIII like your first Puritan?

[Jane Borden]

Kinda, I mean, not Puritan, but Protestant. I mean he broke with the church because they wouldn't give him a divorce. Right. Because he wanted to have a boy. And so he founded the Church of England, the Anglican Church, which was basically Protestantism.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Okay, so they come to America. Where'd they land? Not Plymouth Rock.

[Jane Borden]

Well, first of all, where they landed is not at all where they were headed. The plan was to go to northern Virginia. Now northern Virginia actually extended pretty far north at the time. So they were planning to go to the mouth of the Hudson River. So I like to say, imagine if Staten island had been the birthplace of a nation. Be a very different place today. But they got way off course. They wound up landing on the tip of Cape Cod.

[Jane Marie]

Not a bad place.

[Jane Borden]

No, except it was very cold and raining and it was too late in the season. The captain refused to keep going cause he had to be back in England. But then it took them like five months to find an appropriate spot anyway. I don't understand why they couldn't have just been sailing south. But at any rate, it took them a long time to find an appropriate spot. Meanwhile, everyone's staying on the ship except for like scouting parties. And they're just wading through the cold and wet water and people start getting sick and people start dying. And within months, half of them were dead. Four adult women remained.

[Jane Marie]

Four?

[Jane Borden]

Four, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, those poor uteruses.

[Jane Borden]

Uh huh.

[Jane Marie]

What was this collection of people?

[Jane Borden]

Only about half of them were part of this radical religious group. The rest were just people who wanted an opportunity. Let's see what it's like over there. Because you know, obviously there had been settlements in the south that were growing.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

The spot they eventually chose to settle in had been previously occupied by Native Americans who had all since died because of disease brought over by previous visitors.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

And so they thought God left us this. God dispatched of the natives so that we could have this spot. And there was a bunch of like buried corn and grain, that this was all providence. Okay. In their mind.

[Jane Marie]

Explain to me how they look like a cult.

[Jane Borden]

Well, first of all, the doomsday ideology, I mean, that's, I guess, the most glaring similarity. They thought the world was going to end and very soon and they would be saved. Specifically, they mostly believe the story of the book of Revelation.

[Jane Marie]

If they believe that, why did they need to leave?

[Jane Borden]

Because England was going to burn and they were trying to outrun Armageddon.

[Jane Marie]

That's so strange. I mean, I get it.

[Jane Borden]

But also they could like carry the true church to this new spot. You know, they could safeguard it.

[Jane Marie]

So they get over here and they're doomsday preppers essentially.

[Jane Borden]

So there was high pressure to conform and control over beliefs and behavior. The humiliating punishment being probably the most glaring example of behavioral control. No swearing, no gossiping. You weren't allowed to argue with the minister. You weren't even allowed to like interrupt the preacher. If they called it a pulpit, it was nothing like the pulpit.

[Jane Marie]

Not saying like the Pope.

[Jane Borden]

Right, right.

[Jane Marie]

The big boss guy.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, the big boss guy. And that part's always what gets me about these theological battles is that Catholicism and Protestantism compared to the rest of the world religions are just the same. Yeah, but of course of different outfits. And every minor point could keep Jesus from returning. And they were hell bent on bringing Jesus back. Everything they did was to bring on the end of the world so that they could meet God.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, like all their aggressions or. What do you mean by the stuff they were doing?

[Jane Borden]

Well, for example, trying to purge the church of say a vestment worn by a church leader. The idea was that even that article of clothing was keeping Jesus from coming back.

[Jane Marie]

Because Jesus is a fashionista.

[Paige Desorva]

Nothing feels better than a great manicure except when you can do it at home for next to nothing. The easiest way to do that is with Olive and June's Mani and petty systems. Everything you need for salon quality manicure in one box salon grade tools designed just for diy. Of course, you can always customize your box with up to six polishes. This polish doesn't chip. It lasts seven days or more and it breaks down to about two bucks a manicure and you get that plump like gel finish that lasts up to 10 days. But there's no lamp and it's super easy to remove. I love the new spring system. I also just discovered their new magnetic gels which if you, if you haven't tried, you should. It's super fun. It's so easy to get salon worthy nails at home with Olive and June and you will not believe the difference between how your nails used to look when you did them yourself and how they look now with the mani system. I love it when I get a chance to go to a salon but I'm pretty busy and I don't always get to and sometimes I just don't want to spend the money. And my daughter loves the Alvin June press ons because they look so real. They have a million different sizes so you can find the perfect fit. They don't damage your nails. It only takes about 10 minutes and I think it's better than gel. You get a press on set for only 10 bucks which is so cheap. And they're incredibly easy to remove. All you need is a little warm water. And with Olive and June quick dry Polish offered in 40 plus cruelty free and vegan polishes, your nails will dry in about a minute. Visit oliveandjune.com dream for 20% off your first system. That's O L I V E a n d j-u n e.com d r e a m for 20% off your first system.

[Howie Mandel]

This is Paige Desorva from Giggly Squad. Opill is a game changer for sexual reproductive health. They're the first over the counter daily birth control pill available in the us. Finally, the days of needing a prescription to get birth control are over. Opill is FDA approved, no prescription needed. Full prescription strength estrogen free and available online and at most major retailers. So when there's no prescription, no appointment, there's no hassle, no more waiting at the doctor's office to get a prescription. Opill will be easily accessed over the counter in store or online and will be ready for when you need it. Opill is available online and at most major retailers. Use code giggly for 25% off your first month of [e-mail] BetterHelp Online Therapy.

[Narrator]

Bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com random podcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[Dani Pellegrino]

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about NO cd. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapists provide specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD this year, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's n o c d.com.

[Jane Borden]

So the the high control group characterization especially applies to the puritans and they showed up 10 years later. Ships started coming over in 1630 and they founded Boston.

[Jane Marie]

So Puritans founded Boston.

[Jane Borden]

So the Puritans set up shop. And they, unlike the Pilgrims, were just fine with having, like, a church structure and church magistrates and all that. And those guys, once they had control, they really didn't let it go and became as rigid and intolerant, if not more so, than the structures they were fleeing.

[Jane Marie]

So we all know about, like, the Salem witch trials, which were a little bit later.

[Jane Borden]

Yes, about 60 years later.

[Jane Marie]

But at the time when they first got here, what were the mechanisms by which they controlled people? Like, I'm picturing. What are those things called?

[Jane Borden]

Oh, sure, the stocks and the pillory and various instruments of torture that you attached around one limb or another. Sometimes you. They just had you standing on a box in the middle of the town, and people could, like, stone you, talk and throw food and trash at you. You had to wear your crimes pinned to you. People got branded a. For adultery. Yeah, scarlet letter, but branded. People got their tongues clipped, their ears clipped, sometimes reattached, not always. One of my favorite stories is this guy got kicked out and they tossed him on a ship because that's how they banished people at the time back to England. And there was like a. The only thing I can describe it as is a spank tunnel. There were guys waiting in a line on either side with their muskets. And as he walked past, each one had to thump him on the breach with the butt of his musket.

[Jane Marie]

Now people pay for that.

[Jane Borden]

Now people pay for all this shit. Truly. And it's just another example of how deeply this is still inside all of us.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so that's Boston. Does it spread? How does it start to become kind of the norm?

[Jane Borden]

The Puritan settlements were extremely successful. They did eventually blend in with larger New England society, but at that point, it was all culturally pretty much the same, in my opinion. And Protestantism in general, you know, even if you're looking at the colonies further south, those guys were mostly Protestant. And so it just became the culture at large. I trace some of these ideas popping up at certain points. Our desires for an autocrat, our desires for a strong man to come in and rescue us, which I think ultimately traces to the Book of Revelation. But. But we see that in westerns, in comic books and superhero movies, in vigilante films. We're obsessed with the vigilante story. That's a very American, puritanical, radical Protestant story. Anti intellectualism, anti elitism. We got that from the Puritans, this idea of, like, forever rebels. That is our Identity that came from the Puritans. That's a radical Protestant idea. The idea of being chosen, that we're the perfect nation, we're God's nation. So that's manifest destiny. Why not spread more of it? That's paternalism, essentially. We know what's best for everyone else.

[Jane Marie]

I feel like it's everything that comes out of J.D. vance's mouth. Today I heard him say something about Greenland, and he ended his argument about how Greenland isn't being stewarded over by Denmark properly, but it doesn't matter because we're the best country to do it.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Anodoi is how he said it to.

[Jane Borden]

To, like a news onodoy, kind of. I think he was quoting Cotton Mather when he said onodoy.

[Jane Marie]

But he looked at the news reporter like, I mean, would you leave this up to any other country?

[Jane Borden]

No. And that's straight out of Puritan thought. This idea that the quote unquote, wilderness, which of course is a fallacy from the start because people were living there, needed stewardship. That land wasn't meeting its full potential unless it was being worked by the Anglo Saxons. Right.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

And so when they took land from the native peoples, it was for the good of the land. It would be a sin to leave it with them because they were just letting it lay and waste, which now.

[Jane Marie]

We know that it wasn't being wasted at all. Just wasn't recognizable as it wasn't being stripped.

[Jane Borden]

It was being worked in a sustainable way.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. So the Puritans start this place basically.

[Jane Borden]

Culturally, in my opinion, I think it can be argued. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. We don't talk about the Puritans as if they're a cult. And a doomsday cult, certainly not. Let's go through some examples of organizations that we do think are cults, but look eerily similar.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Jim Jones taken a bunch of people to another country.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. And the isolation in particular is, in my opinion, what led to the violent end of that group. Because isolation as a force impacts the way groups develop and almost always leads toward violence, because isolation affects us psychologically and affects group dynamics.

[Jane Marie]

But take me to the evolutionary.

[Jane Borden]

So a lot of research suggests that we shot to the top of the food chain not because we're smart, it's not our brains, but because of our ability to cooperate. And we developed cooperation skills not exclusively because of this, but in large part in response to outside attack or attacking outsiders, both of which offense and defense require cooperation. And obviously, the groups who did it best live to tell the tale. And pass on their genes. So we see the dynamics of that happening in every cult. Social norm policing being one example. So a social norm is anything, any practice that a group all agrees they're going to do in order to cooperate better. And children as young as three have been studied tattletailing essentially on people they see violating social norms. That's how baked into our DNA it is. And so this is what happens in cults when people get policed for disagreeing about something or, you know, in Warren Jeffs, FLDS used to say, first thing.

[Jane Marie]

I thought of with the hairdos. And.

[Jane Borden]

He used to send people around knocking on doors to literally police social norms. And it was the same thing with early humans. So there was like a hierarchy of punishments that went from, you know, you get a strict talking to to execution or banishment, which was basically the same thing in that day as execution.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, but what do we use it for now? Now that everyone can go to the.

[Jane Borden]

Grocery store for food, we still have an impulse to band together in groups. And so we see that not only in actual physical cults, but in online communities. And identity is often shaped around in group versus out group. So we still have in us that knee jerk reaction to outsiders fear of outside attack. Let's band together as a group. The stronger knit we are, the tighter we are, the more able we will be to keep our group alive. And so we see that now it's less with violence, although certainly we've seen that happen, than it is with ideas and ideologies.

[Jane Marie]

Let's talk about some of the cults that have come out of what the puritans were able to establish here.

[Jane Borden]

So one of the first groups I explore is Church Universal and Triumphant, which was led by Elizabeth Clare Prophet. And that was big in the 80s and early 90s. They were out in Montana and there's fun. You know, they did Oprah, they did Donahue. So her whole thing was that doomsday's coming, we're gonna build a big bunker. Come live in the bunker and you'll be safe. Now, they were not violent. From what I can tell, they were amassing weaponry.

[Jane Marie]

But.

[Jane Borden]

And I interviewed two of her children and they both said really the weapons were just for self defense. Like they had plans to help neighbors if they showed up while, you know, the sky was raining flames, supposedly. What's interesting to me, taking off frogs. That's right.

[Jane Marie]

Skeet shooting for food.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The reason I chose to write about this group in my book is because at a certain point, Elizabeth Clare Prophet stopped Praying for the ascended masters, that's who she called it. Who were like holding back the world's the punishment for the world's karma. She stopped praying to them to hold off the violence and started praying for them to bring it. She actively wanted and got her community to pray for this as well. She actively wanted God to bring violence and judgment. And that to me feels very puritan. They wanted the end. They wanted to see it. It's not just that they wanted to be with God, which was the end result of it all right? The comfort and the peace of that. They wanted to see the violence. They wanted to see everyone else get it. I mean, the most popular. It's been called America's first bestseller. This long form poem called A Day of Doom by Michael Wigglesworth, great name. It's like 200 and some stanzas of people being punished and wailing for mercy and being denied and being thrown into the flames. And then it's like five stanzas of what's waiting for the remaining people in heaven. So it's like very clear what they were more interested in.

[Jane Marie]

It's so weird though, because. Okay, not to brag, but I've read the Bible a bunch of times. Okay, you don't need guns if you're actually one of the good guys. You just need to keep watching tv, just sit in your house, you know, like, you don't.

[Jane Borden]

Are you trying to poke holes in their ideology?

[Jane Marie]

I'm trying to poke holes in the Bible, but you know what I mean, if you're a chosen one, then why would you. Why would you even. You don't need to protect your neighbors. Like it's already been decided who's going and who's staying.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, it's predetermined who's going up and who's not. And so I don't understand the middle part, where all the supposedly good humans have to become bad people for a little while in the name of the Lord. But I.

[Jane Borden]

They're trying not to become collateral damage. I guess I don't understand in the meantime, while they're waiting for all of the carnage.

[Jane Marie]

But if you are collateral damage, don't you still get to go there?

[Jane Borden]

Right. Wouldn't you? You'd be resurrected, presumably.

[Jane Marie]

Right? Yeah, that's what I thought was going on. But then you look at all these cults and. No, that's not what's going on. It's that you have to be kind of awful here on this planet, in.

[Jane Borden]

This life, but it's justified.

[Jane Marie]

Right?

[Jane Borden]

Because you're chosen by God. And so whatever means necessary to carry out his desire is justified. So that speaks to the Anglo Saxon myth, which basically said that the Germanic people had been chosen by God to carry the true religion ever westward. So first they went to England, you know, the Angles and the Saxons both came from parts of what's now Germany, and then to America. The Puritan church is even more pure. Right. Quote, unquote. And then Manifest Destiny. And then. And then. And on and on and on.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

And so part of the idea is that the reason why. Well, the Philippines, it was used as an argument when they annexed the Philippines. So part of the argument for why the Germanic people were the chosen people is because they were warmongers. And so it wasn't their violent aspects that God wanted. It was their enterprising nature. It was their courage. It was their nomad, their ability to be nomads. And if the warmongering came along with that, well, then so be it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah. That's just a hazard of the game. Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about a few more cults.

[Jane Borden]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

You do go into Amway.

[Jane Borden]

Sure.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

So the bit of Puritan ideology I explore in that chapter is our obsession with wealth in this country, and we worship the wealthy. And that can be traced directly to Puritan ideas about work and having a calling. And so they thought the best way to glorify God was to have a calling to work. And they also thought, like, their only purpose on Earth was to glorify God, that that's what he wanted out of us. And so you better work all the. And your work better be fruitful.

[Jane Marie]

Yes, it should make money.

[Jane Borden]

Money being the natural side effect of hard work. The hard work, yes. And so that was the distinction that the Pilgrims and Puritans made. And there was a lot of talk at the time about if your neighbor wants money, you give it to him, even if you think you're not going to be repaid. I don't fault the Puritans for that. The Puritans were not Amway. However, this belief that work was holy, if work is holy, then the fruits of that work are not bad. And so how could you say that someone who's making money is bad if clearly this money is a result of your hard work? And anyway, gosh, if God is rewarding the chosen on Judgment Day, then wouldn't he also reward his chosen here on Earth? So if you're rich, isn't that just another sign that you're one of the chosen, which was, ergo, trump I mean. Yeah, and so there's this great quote saying that religion begot prosperity and then the daughter devoured the mother. And so they saw it happening at the time. Acquisitiveness became not just acceptable, but. But attractive. The whole idea was about having it, not spending it or giving it away.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Jane Borden]

And so the biggest problem with this is not just that we worship the wealthy here, but the inverse of that. So if you don't have money, then you must be a sinner. And there's all sorts of quotes in history of people saying, you know, why give money to almshouses? Clearly, these beggars have been, you know, assessed by God and deemed unworthy. And so if they're sinners, sin should be punished. And so we see the poverty being punished for their own state, which is.

[Jane Marie]

Oftentimes created by wealth hoarding.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jane Marie]

But the wealth hoarding being a sign from God that you get to be one of the chosen ones.

[Jane Borden]

Right. And so what we see is, we see rich people manipulating our latent indoctrination into these beliefs and to take our money, to take all the money which creates more poor sinners, and it's their own damn fault. And that's. Mlm. Rockefeller famously said that his money came from God. And we still believe that. We believe that the number in a person's bank account reflects their moral character. And during the Industrial Revolution and into the Gilded Age, you see this ideology being pumped out in all these pamphlets and books and at these seminars that people are taking, trying to figure out how to get rich, because suddenly there's all this prosperity that's coming from the Industrial Revolution and everyone wanted a piece. And the books don't offer any practical business advice. They all just say, like, be a good person, have a good moral character and work hard and you'll get rich. And what that did is it allowed the barons to keep taking money because they, quote, unquote, deserved it. And they got it because they worked. Not because they were getting subsidies from the government or government contracts, not because they were lowering wages and taking advantage of employees, not because they had wives who were doing everything behind the scenes for them and other free forms of labor. Yeah, it was wealth redistribution. And that's, of course, exactly what's happening today.

[Jane Marie]

So what you find today, I mean, like, correct me if this is a bridge too far.

[Jane Borden]

Doubt it.

[Jane Marie]

The uber, uber wealthy starting cults and new religions to, I think, absolve themselves of the ickiness it must feel to hoard so much wealth.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, it's now Completely overt and blatant.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

The idea that, like, loving God is pay to play.

[Jane Marie]

And if you don't have a church that fits that, just go make a new one. Or make a new cult.

[Jane Borden]

Yep. Which is. I mean, that's what radical Protestantism is. It's schismatic. It splits and fractures. There's one group, the Worldwide Church of God, that split when the sun took over or something. Anyway, long story short, within 10 years, there were, like, 200 branches beneath it. And this is also a result of the Great Awakening. Right. It just. It flattened church hierarchy. Anyone can be a preacher. Anyone who's charismatic, you know.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Jane Borden]

Gets a church.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. So any other really outstanding cult. By outstanding, I mean bananas.

[Jane Borden]

I love the Oneidans.

[Jane Marie]

Oh.

[Jane Borden]

So this was in the middle of the 19th century. They were perfectionists. They were part of the perfectionism movement. The idea being that we don't have to wait for judgment Day to go into New Jerusalem. We can deliver ourselves to New Jerusalem. So, like, cut God out of the picture. We know how to do this for ourselves. And this guy, John Humphrey Noyes, basically decided one of the ways to get there was through sex.

[Jane Marie]

Ooh.

[Jane Borden]

So do I.

[Jane Marie]

Am I oneighted?

[Jane Borden]

Maybe. Certainly feels like it. So there were all these theories going on at the time about, like, we were just coming to understand electricity. And so he thought that Jesus had electricity in him. And so therefore, each of us had a little bit of electricity in us. And that when we had sex with each other, our electrical nodes stimulated one another and brought us closer to the electricity in Christ. So therefore, the more people's batteries you hooked up to, the closer you could get to God. He called it complex marriage. And the idea was that whoever you wanted to hook your battery to, you had to, like, fill out. You had to, like, make a formal request. And then noise.

[Jane Marie]

To whom?

[Jane Borden]

To noise and his committee. So they got to choose who got to pair with whom. That part was kind of a bummer. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

That I'm not into.

[Jane Borden]

No, the reason. Well, control. Control is the reason. He had to control everything. Cult leaders have to control every aspect of everyone's lives. It's a insatiable impulse. And I say insatiable because literally where it leads is death. That's the only way it ends. That's Jonestown. That's the insatiable desire for control over 900 people's lives. So he didn't really want people falling in love with each other because you were supposed to be spreading it around. So that was part of why he Wanted to control who could be with whom. Because if you requested someone too frequently, it was called Sticky Love. And you were censured for that. I know, it's kind of a, kind of a portrait of words.

[Jane Marie]

How did babies get like.

[Jane Borden]

Well, they didn't want babies to be made because they didn't have any money. Now eventually, eventually they found a way to make money in the silverware business. So this is Oneida Silverware.

[Jane Marie]

Oh.

[Jane Borden]

Which became a huge corporations.

[Jane Marie]

Why? Because stockholders were selling the silverware. Just were going around town trying to fuck everybody.

[Jane Borden]

That's how they got popular. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Boy, do I have a deal for you.

[Jane Borden]

Hear me out.

[Jane Marie]

A 16 piece set. Listen. Yeah, for sure.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

No, but really, how did they sell so much silverware?

[Jane Borden]

Well, the cult dissolved before the turn of the century and it was really well into the 20th century that they were in the trousseaus of every bride across the nation. I mean, they were huge, hugely successful.

[Jane Marie]

How many people forgot that they were a cult?

[Jane Borden]

Yeah. And they tried to distance themselves. There's actually this wonderful book written by a historian named Ellen Wayland Smith, who is descended from members of the United community. And she.

[Jane Marie]

Whoopsie Daisy.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, whoopsie.

[Jane Marie]

They got one through.

[Jane Borden]

Smart one came out. She. She tells a story about the leaders of the corporation going into the archives, the community archives, taking out a bunch of folders and papers and burning them at the town dump. So they definitely tried to distance themselves from their cult origins.

[Narrator]

BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self control care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10 off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

What if I told you that right now millions of people are living with a debilitating condition that's so misunderstood, many of them don't even know that they have it. That condition is Obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the chief clinical officer of NOCD. And in the 25 years I've been treating OCD, I've met so many people who are suffering from the condition in silence, unaware of just what it was. OCD can create overwhelming anxiety and fear around what you value most, make you question your identity, beliefs and morals, and drive you to perform mentally and physically draining compulsions or rituals. Over my career, I've seen just how devastating OCD can be when it's left untreated. But help is available. That's where NOCD comes in. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for obsessive compulsive disorder. Our licensed therapists are trained in exposure and response prevention therapy, a specialized treatment proven to be incredibly effective for OCD. So visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call with our team. That's nocd.com hey, it's Paige from Giggly squad.

[Howie Mandel]

Real talk. If there's one store that I absolutely love walking around, it's Sephora. It's my total guilty pleasure. They have amazing brands that other people people don't have and I find something great every time I walk in and there's literally one down the street from me. So I do that a lot. It's so fun to shop in the store and online and the products are just too good. No regrets ever. For example, one of my favorite beauty brands is makeup by Mario, who just launched his new lip gloss that I absolutely love. So the next time you're in the market for great beauty, shop all the hottest products and brands only at Sephora.

[Jane Borden]

1800-Flowers.Com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships.

[Howie Mandel]

1-800-Flowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift.

[Jane Borden]

From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding.

[Howie Mandel]

The right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acastra.

[Jane Borden]

That's 1-800-flowers.

[Narrator]

Com.

[Jane Borden]

Acast.

[Jane Marie]

What didn't make it in that you were excited about?

[Jane Borden]

Well, the story about the cult awareness network is wild. That ended up on the cutting room floor. Are you familiar with this one?

[Jane Marie]

No.

[Jane Borden]

It was an anti cultist organization that. This was during the cult wars of the 80s and 90s when deprogramming was all the rage, you know, AKA you hire us to kidnap your child out of a cult. Problematic from the start, but also very effective. And for desperate parents, the choice of last resort. So this organization, the cult awareness network, you could call them for advice if your kid was trapped in a cult. And so this was, you know, there had been a huge cult boom in the 60s and 70s, and this was kind of in the aftermath of that. Scientology, the moonies.

[Jane Marie]

The Mansons.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was hysteria among parents whose children were disappearing to become hippies in California. You could call the Cult Awareness Network for advice, like, oh, my God, what's happening? And the organization made a fatal mistake when they brokered essentially a deal between this one family and a deprogrammer named Rick Allen Ross. You might be familiar with him.

[Jane Marie]

Rick Ross? I am.

[Jane Borden]

Yep. Rick Ross.

[Jane Marie]

He goes on Dr. Phil all the time.

[Jane Borden]

I've interviewed him several times. I find him to be an incredibly knowledgeable and generous source, and I admire the work he continues to do. But he got in big, big trouble when he was part of an abduction. Part of an abduction? Yeah, he was the exit counselor, this guy. Jason Scott was his name. And Jason Scott escaped and ran to the authorities. Everybody got arrested and taken to court. And because there was so much attention on these groups, and it was the cult wars, and the cults were hiring academics to justify them, and then the deprogrammers were coming out against the academics. It was a mess. And so people in academia on both sides were testifying in court, and there were millions and millions of dollars on the line in some of these settlements that either families were trying to get to get their kids back, or that former cult members successfully deprogrammed members were going back and suing. And so organizations like the Mooney's and Scientology had a vested interest to stop the Cult Awareness Network and deprogrammers. And they won. And in a bankruptcy sale, the Cult Awareness Network had to sell all of its assets and its name, and it was purchased by the Scientologists.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, perfect.

[Jane Borden]

So when you called the Cult Awareness Network, now that's who answered the phone.

[Jane Marie]

It's like crisis pregnancy centers, where you call, I'm having a crisis pregnancy, and they're like, let me tell you how to keep the baby.

[Jane Borden]

Mm.

[Jane Marie]

I feel like coming out of this interview, I'm like, well, then I guess cults are fine. Cause that's just who we are.

[Jane Borden]

I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Honestly, like, researching and writing this book did bring me a lot of peace, because I understand now where it comes from, both culturally and from an evolutionary perspective. And when you understand how something works, you can't be as afraid of it, because I also understand how to quell these impulses and if there were buy in from society, how to keep us collectively from falling prey to them.

[Jane Marie]

And I think a question that comes up a lot with our research on this show is what kind of an idiot or sucker would get into MLMs or a cult or the wellness cults.

[Jane Borden]

Or whatever, blaming the victim?

[Jane Marie]

And it is in the DNA to find a group I think ultimately the.

[Jane Borden]

Distinction between just having a tribe and being a cult, being in a cult is whether or not you're being exploited. And you know, there are forms of exploitation that happen in groups that aren't cults. So that's still not a super strict analogy. But I mean, the agreed upon definition of a cult by people like Rick Allen Bross is that there's a charismatic leader who's worshiped, that there are thought control efforts, undue influence at play, and that there's actual harm being done either to people within the group or to outsiders. And so that definition is really not that hard to meet even when you're not talking about an isolated group.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Jane Borden]

But I think the reason why there's so much exploitation happening currently in America, cult like, specifically exploitation, is because we're desperate. I mean, the research and work you've done pointing out how MLMs prey on immigrants or people who've lost their jobs, it's in moments of crisis when we grasp at straws. And cult like thinking is ultimately a promise. It's a promise of salvation. Right. You'll get riches or you'll get to be. You'll have a seat on the spaceship that saves us.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Jane Borden]

It's a promise of some kind of salvation. And when we're desperate, we're more easily victimized. And we're desperate today because in my opinion, of the result of a chronic lack of resources because of the wealth gap and the billionaires taking all the money.

[Jane Marie]

Agreed. So how do we quell cult like behaviors?

[Jane Borden]

I think we resource people, I think dealing with income inequality is going to go a long way toward quelling the psychological vulnerabilities that make us more easily victimized by bad actors pushing our buttons to activate us. And I also think we turn toward each other because cult like thinking thrives in isolation, whether that's a group being isolated or people being isolated from one another. And that of course has been one of the major outcomes of social media and technology in general is isolation. And so I think the more we can turn toward each other, actual face to face communication, whether that's across political divides or just friends and family tolerating.

[Jane Marie]

Your insane parents a little bit more. Yeah, one last question.

[Jane Borden]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

We're obsessed with cults right now in popular culture, right. Like every other television show is about a cult, every other podcast is about cults, and sadly not every other book. But we're working on it, right, Jane?

[Jane Borden]

That's right. See my volumes 1 through 15.

[Jane Marie]

But do you think our obsession is another version of us versus them or like the outsiders and the insiders. Like people who are obsessed with cult pop culture comforting themselves by looking from the outside in and saying, oh, I'm not those idiots.

[Jane Borden]

Oh, I think that's a little bit of it. Yeah. I think we're trying to inoculate ourselves. I think we see how prevalent cult, like, thinking is. I think we see how many active cults there are today. And I think we're wondering what the hell's going on and how do I protect myself? And I think we're doing that on a national level level. And to a certain degree, that's what I'm trying to do with this book. I mean, I, you know, I hope your listeners will buy the copy. Cause I'd like to have a career. But I'm also like really trying to point out how the magic trick works. Like, let's see it, acknowledge it. This is what's happening and now we won't fall for it. And these are some things we can do to keep everyone else from falling for it too.

[Jane Marie]

Thank you.

[Jane Borden]

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Big fan. Big fan.

[Jane Marie]

You too.

[Jane Borden]

Aw.

[Jane Marie]

The two Janes. That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-4814-8832-2348-1488 and leave us a message about anything that you think is funky out there. What's going on, guys? Talk to me.

[Howie Mandel]

This is Paige desorva from Giggly Squad. Opill is a game changer for sexual reproductive health through the first over the counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. finally, the days of needing a prescription to get birth control are over. Opill is FDA approved, no prescription needed, full prescription strength, estrogen free and available online and at most major retailers. So when there's no prescription, no appointment, there's no hassle, no more waiting at the doctor's office to get a prescription. Opill will be easily accessed over the counter in store or online and will be ready for when you need it. Opill is available online and at most major retailers. Use code giggly for 25% off your first month of [e-mail] ready to elevate your skin care.

[Narrator]

Introducing Medicaid, a clinically proven dermatologist recommended British skincare brand known for age defying results. Defend your skin against premature aging with Medicaid's new Ctetra advanced gel serum. This next generation serum pairs 20% powerful and stabilized vitamin C with barrier supporting phyto exosomes to visibly brighten smooth skin texture and improve wrinkles in just one week. Delivered in a lightweight, non greasy formula, Medicaid Ctetra Advanced Gel Serum is the perfect addition to your summer skincare routine. Why wait for results? Discover age defying brightness in every drop from medikate visit Medicaite US. That's M E D I K and the number 8 US use code podkast20 for 20% off your purchase today.

[Dani Pellegrino]

I'm Dani Pellegrino from the Everything Iconic podcast and I'm so excited to talk to you about the McDonald's all new McCrispy strips. The new McCrispy strips are here. It's chicken made for dipping. So delicious. Tender, juicy white meat chicken with a golden brown peppery breading.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Dani Pellegrino]

It's chicken so good it deserves its own sauce. The creamy chili McCrispy strip dip. A sauce that's creamy, savory and sweet with a little bit of heat. You will not regret trying it, but all of their sauces are good and the chicken's made for dipping. The new McCrispy strips with a new creamy chili McCrispy strip dip. It's a chicken made for dipping only at McDonald's.