Magnets: How Do They Work?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream – “Magnets: How Do They Work?”
Host: Jane Marie (with Dan Gallucci)
Original release: October 10, 2025
Main Theme:
Jane Marie kicks off the revamped weekly format of The Dream by embarking on a whirlwind tour of Los Angeles’ wealthiest neighborhoods, investigating the faddish, often pseudoscientific world of wellness treatments that claim to harness “magnetism” and “frequencies.” She tests these treatments herself—and, with the help of real physicist Dr. Liam Dodd, explores whether there’s any actual science behind slick “magnetic” machines like the Magnusphere or the infamous Rife Machine.

---

Episode Overview

Jane Marie explores the modern incarnation of the “American Dream” via the wellness industrial complex—specifically, treatments involving magnets and vibrations that promise relaxation, pain relief, or mental health improvement. This episode is a mix of investigative journalism, experiential reporting, and a reality check from genuine science.

---

Key Topics & Insights

1. Jane’s “Tour of Hellness”

• Jane sets out to try LA’s wildest wellness treatments: not just yoga or CBD, but the truly bizarre stuff “Gwyneth Paltrow and her friends know about, but that I’ve never heard of.”
  • [03:20] Jane Marie: “I wanted to try the wilder ones…the ones that Gwyneth Paltrow and her friends know about, but that I’ve never heard of.”
• She uses the app Reggie to book services, focusing on categories like injectables, massages, and, notably, “wellness.”
• First stop: Sauna Bar and the “Magnisphere.”

2. The Magnisphere Experience

• Magnisphere Pitch:
  A magnetic resonance device claimed to “enhance relaxation while relieving stiffness, pain, and stress.”
• Inside the Magnusphere:
  • The treatment is basically sitting in a reclined chair with some sort of electromagnetic device present.
  • The practitioner (Kim) frames the machine as not having “healing powers” but, instead, “creating an environment where your body can heal itself.”
    • [08:55] Kim (Wellness Coach): “These machines don’t heal people, but they create the environment that allows your body to do what it does best.”
• Jane’s Review:
  • No significant change to her physical ailment.
  • The experience is mostly “fancy chair & dim lighting…for $70.”
  • “If you need to get a fart out, just tip upside down. Gas rises. You can venmo me 70 bucks if you want.”
    • [12:25] Jane Marie

3. The World of “Ear Seeds”

• Next stop: Ear Seeds at Neiman Marcus (presented as “24 karat plated ion seeds to stimulate reflex centers in your brain”).
• Services are more about luxury and status than actual effectiveness:
  • Jane encounters confusion, gets stood up for her appointment, and discovers that “spa” just means three rooms in a basement cosmetics department.

4. Rife Machine Therapy

• Background:
  Invented in the 1930s by Royal Rife, promises to cure virtually anything by “vibrating” pathogens or negative energies out of you.
• Jane’s Experience:
  • Clinic is cluttered, filled with alternative therapies and “body-focused therapy sessions.”
  • The process: Hold paddles, input “codes” for ailments (each with its own frequency), sit for 30-50 minutes.
  • “Do I need to take my jewelry off? No, it’s fine.”—another clue there’s little actual magnetism at play.
• Reality Check:
  Jane concludes the treatment is completely unscientific, especially after her experience is compared to that of “people lingering after getting colonics and booking more sessions.”

---

Science Reality Check: Interview with Dr. Liam Dodd (Quantum Physicist)

[29:40–48:52] Main Interview

• Who is Dr. Dodd?

  • PhD in physics, specializing in antimatter at CERN, world expert on magnetism and quantum effects.

• On “Quantum” Wellness Claims:

  • “The major issue…I have with the way the wellness centers and essential oils and all those lot coopt quantum mechanics, is that they treat the word quantum as if it means weird or spooky or something that’s hard to understand…”
    • [31:30] Dr. Liam Dodd
  • Emphasizes that true quantum mechanics is rigorous and precise—co-opting this language to sell wellness is “just a lie.”

• On the Rife Machine and Frequency Treatments:

  • Dodd finds the underlying claims scientifically incoherent:
    • “It’s really hard to understand what they’re trying to do because there’s so little science behind it…”
      • [33:14] Dr. Liam Dodd
  • No plausible mechanism for how a fixed-frequency device could “target” ailments, let alone systemic issues like depression.

• On the Magnusphere and MRI Comparisons:

  • Magnusphere’s website, like many alternative treatments, borrows language from real science like MRI machines but fundamentally misleads:
    • “The thing that drove me really nuts is it compared it to an MRI machine…MRI is a beautiful piece of technology…When we’re talking about me getting inside a Magnusphere, that is not at all what’s happening.”
      • [37:02–38:03] Dr. Liam Dodd
  • Absence of basic magnetic safety procedures (not removing jewelry, no strong magnets) is a key red flag that these devices are not what they claim.

• Science, Trust, and the Allure of the Grift:

  • Dr. Dodd explores why people distrust scientists and are drawn to wellness pseudoscience:
    • The insularity of scientific culture and difficult jargon makes outsiders feel alienated.
    • For devastating issues like cancer, it’s comforting to believe in secret cures or conspiracies—rather than accept “the world is just random and no one knows what happens for any reason.”
    • [40:18–46:09] Dr. Liam Dodd

• On Grifters and Victims:

  • Lower-level practitioners: “a mixture of desperation...or general understandable ignorance.”
  • The real villains: “The people higher up…I have very little patience for…they are actively promoting a thing which is highly likely to cause someone to die or get worse because they will actively avoid traditional treatment over their alternative treatment…So I think people at the top are generally disgusting and are not worthy of any respect.”
    • [46:41] Dr. Liam Dodd

• Motivations of Real Scientists:

  • “The professional answer is we’re trying to increase humanity’s understanding of the world around us and to gain a better appreciation for our position and place in the universe. The real answer is that we just like playing with things…”
    • [46:12] Dr. Liam Dodd

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• [12:25] Jane Marie: “If you need to get a fart out, just tip upside down. Gas rises. You can Venmo me 70 bucks if you want.”
• [31:30] Dr. Dodd: "They co-opt quantum mechanics as if it means 'weird' or 'spooky.' But quantum mechanics is a very rigorous mathematical branch of physics…When I hear in things like the Young Living Manual, when they talk about balancing your vibrational frequencies...it drives me nuts."
• [38:03] Jane Marie/Dr. Dodd: “When we’re talking about me getting inside a Magnusphere, that is not at all what’s happening.” – Jane, after Dodd’s MRI explanation.
• [46:41] Dr. Liam Dodd: “The people higher up ... I have very little patience for. I think they are either completely delusional ... or they know it's a grift, at which point they are actively promoting a thing which is highly likely to cause someone to die or get worse because they will avoid traditional treatment."
• [10:12] Jane Marie: "I appreciate Kim's disclaimer that this magnisphere isn't actually going to do anything. ... But then I start to wonder ... if that's the real treat ... then why is she charging me 70 bucks for it?"

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:20] Jane Marie introduces her “hellness” tour and motives
• [08:21] Inside Sauna Bar, meeting Kim, first look at Magnusphere
• [10:55] Recap and critical reflection on Magnusphere experience
• [13:10] Arrival at Beverly Hills for “ear seeds” experience
• [20:50] Neiman Marcus “spa” fiasco, realization of empty wellness promises
• [22:38] Entry into Rife machine clinic, messy, unscientific environment
• [29:40] Interview with Dr. Liam Dodd begins
• [31:30] Dr. Dodd on pseudoscience, quantum misuse, and “vibrational frequencies”
• [33:14] Discussion of the Rife Machine’s scientific impossibility
• [36:15] Dodd dissects Magnusphere pseudoscience and MRI misappropriation
• [40:18] Deep dive into science distrust, culture, and why pseudoscience is alluring
• [46:41] On grifters and the harm of false wellness

---

Conclusion / Takeaways

• Pseudoscientific wellness devices like the Magnusphere or Rife Machine exploit scientific language to sell expensive treatments that offer, at best, relaxation in a nice chair—and at worst, a dangerous diversion from effective medical care.
• Jane Marie’s open, skeptical but curious reporting, paired with Dr. Dodd’s clear explanations, expose the gulf between real science and the grifty world of “wellness tech.”
• The takeaway, summarized in Jane’s own irreverent style: “If you need to fart, just tip upside down.”

---

For those seeking the real American dream—and real wellness—this episode is a sharp, funny, and ultimately sobering guide to separating science from snake oil in the world of modern self-care.

Transcript

[Jane Marie]

Hey dream listeners. There's now an ad free version of the Dream that you can subscribe to the Dream Plus@thedream supercast.com Five bucks a month gets you every single episode of this show with zero ads which you love and I love. And we're hoping that this will help us pay the bills and the main goal being that we can keep making this show. Go to thedream.supercast.com and subscribe. To make it Easy, we have put the link in the show description. Just look down underneath this episode. It says thedream.supercast.com and just click on that. Easy peasy. You're gonna get a lot of extra stuff too. We're working on all that. Another thing you need to do. Please subscribe to our Instagram. It's the Dream X the letter X. Jane Marie. See you over there. Did I talk too much?

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Can't I just let it go?

[Jane Marie]

Wish I would stop. Thank you so much. Take a breath.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

You're not alone.

[Jane Marie]

Let's talk about what's going on.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. Discover your secret weapon for younger looking skin from Medicaite, a clinically proven British skincare brand known for age defying results. Collagen is key to visibly firmer, smoother and younger looking skin. As we age, our bodies naturally produce less collagen and the existing collagen we do have breaks down. Here's where Medicaite's new Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide cream comes in. Formulated with advanced actives that help stimulate the skin's natural collagen production, Medicaite's Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide cream is an anti wrinkle moisturizer clinically proven to visibly improve skin firmness, elasticity and reduce the appearance appearance of deep set wrinkles. Visit Medikait US. That's M E D I K and the number 8 US. To discover more, use code podcast20 to save 20% off your order.

[Jane Marie]

Previously on the Dream. I had a patient who had a C section for arrest of descent, which means that you're 100% dilated and you've pushed and the baby is not going to come out of the vagina. So this woman had a C section and the next day she was still questioning the decision to have the C section and she asked me, well, what would have happened a hundred years ago if I was in this situation and I looked at her and I said, you and the baby both would have died. And she said, oh, well, that's dramatic. Okay, so I'm gonna make one of these protein sh.

[Dan Gallucci]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

That'S gross. It's early October and I'm headed out to the first of many wellness treatments I've booked around la. Sure, I've tried yoga and meditation and CBD and all the sort of normal, or at least not outright criminal sounding wellness stuff, but I wanted to try the wilder ones, the ones that Gwyneth Paltrow and her friends know about, but that I've never heard of. And in order to do that, we have to go to the cartoonishly wealthy part of la. The part where enough people have enough expendable income to have really great health insurance and a house call service where they drip vitamins into your arm via IV while you sit on your beautiful couch in your formal living room filming your reality television show with your daughters. That's the stuff I want to see. Though not that one in particular, because gross. So off we go on what we're calling my tour of Hellness. All right, Dan's here. Hi. Dan picks me up a little past 9am, which is rush hour. Yes, but every hour is rush hour when you're heading from the east side of LA to the uber wealthy west side like we are. The upshot to sitting in traffic like this is that I'm going to have a lot of time to explain to Dan what little I know about what's about to happen. Thank you for driving me, first of all.

[Dan Gallucci]

No problem. But yeah. Okay, so why. Why are.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Why.

[Dan Gallucci]

Why am I driving you to Brentwood? What's happening here?

[Jane Marie]

Well, I actually, I do want you to drive because I don't know what's about to happen and I'm not sure if I'll be able to drive after.

[Dan Gallucci]

What treatment is this?

[Jane Marie]

Hang on. All right, here's what happened. I started following a lot of wellness people and looking at wellness products and hashtags on Instagram and on my phone in general. And since Instagram knows everything you're doing, stuff started popping up in my feed and the service showed up called Reggie. See, here it is. How beautiful is that? Discover aesthetic and curated beauty treatments. And so you put in your location, which is Los Angeles, and then you can scroll between like, injectables, massages, body contouring, nails, and wellness. So I went to wellness, I searched, and it lets you like instantly book a bunch of Weird wellness things. And that's how I'm getting all my stuff done. So let me scroll down to the one that we're doing today. We're headed to a place called Sauna Bar. And on the booking site there's a very Kubrickian photo of something glowing.

[Dan Gallucci]

Is that the pod you're gonna be in?

[Jane Marie]

I have no idea.

[Dan Gallucci]

I don't understand. It looks like a butterfly. There's two red pods opened up like you would lay in them.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, you're looking at the whole. See, I see two clamshells. It's a wellness Rorschach test. Here's what I'm gonna do today. It's called the Magnisphere. Magnetic resonance technology to enhance relaxation while relieving stiffness, pain and stress. I banged my calf this morning when I was putting my shoes on. I sat down on my couch. Weird. And I on the corner of my couch, I hit my calf. That's how I'm gonna judge if the Magnusphere works because I can feel the soreness in my calf. Like I'm gonna get a charley horse if I walk out of the Magnusphere or roll out. I don't even know if you go in it. I don't know. What if I hold? Maybe it's the thing you hold.

[Dan Gallucci]

So is there something like are we magnetic?

[Jane Marie]

That's what I was gonna ask the person when I get in there. I'm assuming. Assuming so because we stick to the earth.

[Dan Gallucci]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

But that's also just gravity. Sauna Bar is in a multi level mall with an open air atrium in the middle. There are a few sushi restaurants, a blow dry bar, some offices. The inside of this place is very white. White desk and walls and white furniture. White is often the interior color of choice among very rich people. Go figure. Kim, a self described wellness coach, is helping me out today and hands me a clipboard. I sit down to fill out my paperwork and there right in front of me on a shelf is a display of essential oils for sale. Doterra essential oils. The mlm. Ay ay yai. When I'm finished, she walks me past those clamshell looking things Dan and I were puzzled by and I guess that's not where I'm headed. Instead I'm in a tiny room along with this. Looks cool. I didn't expect. So it's like a. It looks like a captain's chair.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

Spaceship.

[Dan Gallucci]

Yeah.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

Starship Enterprise Captain's chair. Sort of deal with.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, like it looks like being inside of a giant wheel well, so what.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

You'Re going to lift up kind of like a captain's chair and you're going to be leaning back. Now it goes all the way back. It's not going to tip over. It does feel like you're going to tip all the way back. It's a zero gravity position, so it's taking the pressure off your cardiovascular.

[Jane Marie]

And what are you putting in the. What is this?

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

That's what runs the different protocols. So it's connected, but that's what tells us what to do.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. Okay.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

So this is an electromagnetic resonance machine, basically. So what, that everything in life has an electrical sort of impulse current to it, including. That's how our cells talk to each other, our nervous cells, they send millions, millions and millions of these signals every single day, minute, second, pretty much depending on what we're doing, this is how they communicate. So the body has this electromagnetic energy, computers have a different type of electromagnetic energy. And what happens is these invisible forces actually do play a role on our own health and well being. So this here is designed to help try, balance out and calm some of that energy in the body. Then our body will naturally start to do all of the things. So these machines don't heal people, but they create the environment that allows your body to do what it does best. Okay, Right, Right. So if people are claiming that these are healing you, it's actually not. It's creating the correct environment where your body can actually calm down. And when we're out of that stress state, our body, it knows what to do. It knows exactly what to do and how to do it. It's primary function is to find homeostasis, balance and find the path of least resistance.

[Jane Marie]

Right, Right.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

So that's what we get in the way.

[Jane Marie]

I appreciate Kim's disclaimer that this magnisphere isn't actually going to do anything. That the way it works is to get my body in the mood to do its own job. But then I start to wonder if that's mostly because I'm going to spend a half an hour in a room with dim lighting and calming music. And if that's the case, if that's the real treat, the real way my body will get in the mood to do its own job, then why is she charging me 70 bucks for it? I have chairs and light switches at home and do I need to take my earrings off? No, that's fine.

[Dan Gallucci]

What happens?

[Jane Marie]

Jesus Christ. All right, well, first of all, would you like a hydrogen infused water?

[Dan Gallucci]

Wait a second, like the hydrogen in H2O like isn't there? Isn't water. 2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen.

[Jane Marie]

Read what it says on the front.

[Dan Gallucci]

Zero caffeine, zero calories.

[Jane Marie]

That's because it's water.

[Dan Gallucci]

Hydrogen infused water is clinically proven to increase athletic performance, reduce inflammation from exercise, and deliver powerful antioxidants. Pure water. Pure hydrogen. If water is life, shouldn't it be awesome? Basic has evolved.

[Jane Marie]

All right, where do I begin? The jig was up when she didn't make me take my jewelry off inside of a magnetic thingamabobber.

[Dan Gallucci]

That's weird.

[Jane Marie]

The main thing was I had to be in this chair where I was like, leaned all the way back and my legs were up. And I think that's the whole thing that makes you feel anything. Cause you're like upside down a little bit with your head back and your feet up in the air. I was trying the whole time to feel like, to sense something, but nothing was happening. Except for one thing that did happen a lot, which I am embarrassed to admit. But if I was someone who was like, oh, I need this to be doing something to my body. And I wanted it, I wanted to believe it makes you fart. And they spray a bunch of lavender stuff in the room beforehand because she's like, oh, this will make it like a more sensory experience. And I'm like, no, you're just covering up all the farts in the room. And then my feet went numb because I was kind of upside down. So there was a lot of stuff happening because of the chair. So that was a total waste of time and money. One, my leg felt the same after I left. And two, if you need to get a fart out, just tip upside down. Gas rises. You can venmo me 70 bucks if you want. All right, today we're going to Beverly.

[Dan Gallucci]

Hills.

[Jane Marie]

And I'm getting ear seeds.

[Dan Gallucci]

What is an ear seed?

[Jane Marie]

These 24 karat. This is on Neiman Marcus's website. These 24 karat plated ion seeds stimulate reflex centers of the brain to help you achieve your calm, happy, detox and pain free experience. Wait, detox free or detox and pain? What? Enjoy the golden look, the nourishing feeling, and this unique approach to easing your symptoms. Should I flag all of these reviews on Neiman Marcus as inappropriate? Here they are. Ready? These are the reviews. Gold Ear.com. this is a review from Goldeer.com huh. My feelings are pure and honest. The pressure points are spot on. All caps. I couldn't be more at peace with myself. These are fabulous. Not quite sure, says Judith they're gonna set something down on my ear and then they're gonna be like, see, you feel more balanced. But they're probably gonna put me in a weird chair again or something. They're gonna like spin me around in circles and make me dizzy and then lay me down and put these ear seeds on and be like, oh, you're rebalanced. This episode is sponsored by Nordstrom. Fall is here and Nordstrom has the latest styles and hottest trends to add to your closet and makeup bag this season. Nordstro Nordstrom has the best beauty brands to refresh your makeup for fall. Mac Benefit, beautyblender, Kosas, Ilia, Westman Atelier and more. With thousands of options under $200, Nordstrom has clothing, shoes and accessories from all your favorite brands to match your personal style. Brands like Addicted, Reformation, Aster, Back to Westman Atelier for a second. They have this highlighter stick, it's called the Lit Up Highlight stick and it comes in this clear version that just like makes you look dewy and a little bit highlighted but not glittery. It's my favorite when I want to wear a highlighter, but I don't want to look like I have glitter on my face. But check that out from Westman Atelier. And so if you're shopping at Nordstrom, definitely sign up for the Nordy Club. I get so many points to spend. It works with both Nordstrom Rack and regular Nordstrom too. Nordstrom makes online shopping easy with free standard shipping all the time plus two day and next day options to get your items faster plus risk free shopping with free returns in store or by mail. Buy online and pick up today or pick up tomorrow. For a wider selection, choose curbside at Nordstrom stores or in store at Nordstrom and Nordstrom Rack. Both options are quick and convenient. Shop in store or online at Nordstrom today for great deals on all the best new styles and convenient pickup or delivery for fall and winter. This podcast is sponsored by Gab. The youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know social media is driving it. This shocked me. Teens spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full time job outside of school, just scrolling endlessly. The US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety. This is unbelievable or crazy. Believable. 45% of girls and 32% of boys feel overwhelming stress from being on social media and together 25% of both feel worse about their own lives. Here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in Steps works by providing kid safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens. Each device grows with your child. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Give them Gab which keeps them socially connected safely. I can't recommend Gab enough. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gabb.com and the code the Dream for a special Offer this episode of.

[Dan Gallucci]

The Dream is brought to you by Medicaid, a clinically proven British skin care brand known for age defying results. Medicaid was founded by two scientist brothers 15 years ago on a mission to simplify the route to great skin. All Medicaid products undergo clinical testing and have amazing before and after results and they are dermatologists. Recommended Medicaid creates everything in house in their lab located just outside of London following strict EU guidelines. One key to age defying skin is collagen. Collagen is key to visibly firmer, smoother and younger looking skin. As we age, our bodies naturally produce less collagen and the existing collagen we do have breaks down. Formulated with advanced actives that help stimulate the skin's natural collagen production. Medicaid's new Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide Cream is an anti wrinkle moisturizer clinically proven to visibly improve skin firmness, elasticity and reduce the appearance of deep set wrinkles. Once I started using Medicaid's new Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide cream, I have gotten so many compliments on my skin it's awesome. Visit Medicaid U.S. that's M E D I K and then the number 8 U.S. to discover more. Use code Dream20 to save 20% off your order. That's medicate U.S. code Dream20 to save 20% OFF your order.

[Knox (Popcast Host)]

Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapers and Zyn is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zyn nicotine pouches reasons like Zyn Nicotine pouches are still America's Number one choice for smoke free hands free Nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Dan Gallucci]

Do you know where we're going? I'm sorry.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, you're supposed to be taking a left on Beverly, which you just passed, so go left on Rodeo Drive. This is so stupid. Oh, my God. Pirotta, Gucci, Prada. I feel like I should start rapping, but I don't know how. I'm another St. Laurent. There's two St. Laurent's on the street. Bottega, Venita, Valentino, Dolce and Gabbana. Dior, Piaget. Okay, so there's Barney's. It's. Oh, ha. You know what? It's inside the Neiman Marcus. That's why they're selling them at Neiman Marcus. Okay, I want everything where is. So it's V, I E. We're in the jewelry department, but nobody seems to work here. Look at that sequin coat. Hang on. $12,000. I headed for the jewelry department based on the photo I saw of the ear seeds, which looked like tiny gold earrings stuck to supposed pressure points on your earlobe. But no one knew what I was talking about when I was asking them for this service. Eventually, a woman sent me downstairs to a weird corner of the cosmetics department where there was a reception table set up with macaroons and champagne flutes full of water. And I waited and waited and waited about 15 minutes for someone to show up. Eventually, someone did, but she didn't have great news. I got stood up.

[Dan Gallucci]

By whom?

[Jane Marie]

I don't know. Someone who works for that company. Today I learned that there is a spa in the basement of Neiman Marcus. It says it's a spa, but really it's just, like, three rooms off of the cosmetics department. And they said, she's not here yet. And then 10 minutes later, they handed me a phone, and a guy was on the phone and he said, the service that you used to book the appointment booked you at 11. And I said, no, they didn't, because they texted me and emailed and gave me a calendar alert that my appointment's at 10. Because I asked for an appointment at 10, and he said, no, they booked you at 11. This next procedure is one I have heard of because my aunt, not Amy, but another aunt, her sister, owns a machine similar to the one I'm about to get hooked up to. It's called a rife machine, and it was invented in the 1930s by a guy named Royal R. Rife. His name was Royal. And it claims to work in a way that's similar to those essential oils, you know, vibrating frequencies and whatnot. I've never seen the machine in person before, but in pictures it looks a lot like an E meter. Those machines that Scientologists use with cans you hold onto while someone grills you about your childhood trauma kind of looks like that. So to find a clinic that has one, we end up driving to a not super rich part of town. The office building this clinic is in is all brown glass and metal, about four stories with no real signage, and it's on a dusty corner opposite a gas station. It feels more normal. That is, until I step inside and am assaulted by a sound that I can't immediately identify.

[Dan Gallucci]

Hi.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Hi.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

How are you?

[Jane Marie]

Good, how are you? First of all, the place is tiny, which is fine, but not super fine when I'm told the procedure I'm getting is going to take place right next to the front desk, which is right in front of the waiting area, which was currently hosting a preteen boy playing his Nintendo Switch. Out loud, though you can't quite hear the preteen dude on his Nintendo Switch because there's an oxygen chamber sitting right next to the waiting area and it's running full blast. And by oxygen chamber, I mean a domed enclosure made out of what looks like it's trying to look like Kevlar. It's got a zipper on it and hoses running hither and yon. I am doing the ride.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Oh, the ride.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I think I have a 1:30 appointment that I booked through a service online.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

Do you know what you want to.

[Jane Marie]

Do on the ride or you want to go through? I think it's suppression and anxiety, stress and anxiety. Do I do it myself? Well, you literally just sit and hold.

[Kim (Wellness Coach)]

Onto paddles and you can close your eyes.

[Dan Gallucci]

Oh, okay.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, okay. All right, guys. I don't know how to say this, but this place was a fucking mess. Stacks of paper all over the front desk, smudges on the walls, things held together with duct tape, and severely faded posters touting the benefits of various alternative therapies the clinic offers. The receptionist pulls out a three ring reference binder of codes for the rife machine, each ailment with its own special set of numbers that she must plug in 34 minutes. I'll do that one.

[Dan Gallucci]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

So you might feel a little tingle, but other than that, do I Need to take my jewelry off? No, it's fine.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, whoa.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

It'll snap.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Yeah, it feels fine.

[Jane Marie]

So right now it's on like a three, which is. That's what I do. I'm a three. But if you wanted up higher, I can. You don't want to start too high. But if you feel it now, then we're good. We don't need to go up that much. But you do feel it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it says you're at a good pulse.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

I asked for help with depression and anxiety, and when she enters the code for depression and anxiety, it says that it's going to run for 50 minutes. But then I explain that my appointment is only 30 minutes, and she says, okay, no problem, we'll do 30. Very scientific. As I sit there holding onto the things, one person exits the oxygen tent and three different clients come out of rooms that I later find out are where the colonics are performed. And as they leave, every single one of them lingers at the front desk chatting about how their colonic went and what service they'd like to book next. It's clear that these people see a lot of each other, and it feels like eavesdropping on very body focused therapy sessions. Not one of them leaves without booking another procedure. After 30 minutes, I run out of there as fast as I can and rejoin Dan. Anyway, Woof. She thought I was there for some other treatment, which was like a liver and kidney cleanse detox. Sorry, liver and kidney detox. She's like, well, what we do is we put a couple paddles on and then it breaks everything up and flushes it out in your feces. Urine and blood. And I was like, wait, blood? How does my blood come out? So enough of me knowing less than the people I keep accusing of knowing nothing about the stuff they're doing to me. I have a million questions about what all of that was. Every person I spoke to at these facilities kinda reminded me of my aunt Amy in that they all had a spiel involving frequencies or magnetic forces, things like that. I considered asking a doctor if any of these treatments were legit, but I'd have to talk to 100 physicians, and I know they'd all tell me the same thing. No. And that's not what my burning question was anyway. My burning question was, is this actual science? Do these frequencies and magnetism actually do anything to your body? So that's why I found a real, live quantum physicist who understands how frequencies and magnetism and all that other junk really works on a molecular level. Dr. Liam Dodd studies antimatter physics and he did his PhD work at CERN. You know where the Large Hadron Collider is? Hello Liam, hi. That's coming up. Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop I was thinking so much.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

Take a breath. You're not alone. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals.

[Jane Marie]

Get matched with a therapist online based.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

On your unique needs and get help.

[Jane Marie]

With everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions.

[BetterHelp Announcer]

Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. Discover your secret weapon for younger looking skin from Medikaite, a clinically proven British skincare brand known for age defying results. Collagen is key to visibly firmer, smoother and younger looking skin. As we age, our bodies naturally produce less collagen and the existing collagen we do have breaks down. Here's where Medicaite's new Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide Cream comes in. Formulated with advanced actives that help stimulate the skin's natural collagen production, Medicaite's Advanced Pro Collagen plus Peptide Cream is an anti wrinkle moisturizer clinically proven to visibly improve skin firmness, elasticity and reduce the appearance of deep set wrinkles. Visit Medicaite US. That's Medik and the number 8us. To discover more, use code podcast20 to save 2020 off your order.

[Knox (Popcast Host)]

Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapors and Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen Nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke free hands free nicotine satisfaction and you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out Zen to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if.

[Jane Marie]

You could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

My name is Dr. Liam Dodd. I have a PhD in physics specializing in experimental antimatter physics. I worked at CA in Paris, which is the atomic energy facility in Paris that does lots of research there. It's where they built the first, like, experimental reactors in France. And after that I moved and carried on my doctoral research working at cern.

[Jane Marie]

Can you tell us a little more about what CERN is?

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

CERN is, it's got a French acronym, but it's basically the center of European nuclear research. It's the single biggest particle physics experiment, I think the biggest physics experiments on the planet. It's most famous these days for the lhc, which is the Large Hadron Collider, which is a huge accelerating ring that goes underneath France and Switzerland, where they accelerate protons to 99.999999% the speed of light and then smash them together and see what comes out. They discovered the Higgs Boson in 2012, which was obviously the major discovery they were hoping to find, but they also do lots of other work. And the group that I worked for was part of the antimatter factory, working for an experiment that was hoping to produce stable charged antihydrogen ions so we could then trap them, cool them, and then measure the gravitational acceleration of an antimatter atom in an Earth field.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so Liam knows magnetism, quantum mechanics, vibrations, positive and negative charges in the body. To someone like him, did any of these treatments make sense? So you heard our first episode where we were talking about essential oils and their frequencies. What did you think of what we read in the Young Living Oils Handbook?

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

It was the major issue I have with the way the wellness centers and essential oils and all those lot co opt quantum mechanics, is that they treat the word quantum as if it means weird or spooky or something that's hard to understand, they suddenly think, well, that means everything weird. We can now explain with quantum mechanics. When all quantum mechanics, like the name comes from the energy is quantized at that kind of level, of that level of physics. So when things are very small, for example, for an electron to transition between two states in an atom, it has to have an exact energy transition. It can't have nearly the same amount or a little bit more. It has to have the exact kind of amount. So that's all the quantum mechanics means. This is a very, very rigorous mathematical branch of physics. So when I hear in things like the Young Living Manual, when they talk about how well, you can take this oil and it will like, balance your vibrational frequencies to like, something that's like, better or whatever, it drives me nuts, because there's enough sciency words that people who don't know anything about quantum mechanics will assume that there must be some science behind it which ignores so much basic rudimentary biology and quite basic quantum mechanics that it's ludicrous. And you have people tricked because they assume that like an MRI machine is quantum mechanics. Cancer treatment uses quantum mechanics. So there must be something in this oil that also uses quantum mechanics. When there isn't, there's just nothing there. It's just a lie.

[Jane Marie]

In addition to looking into the frequencies of essential oils, we sent Dr. Dodd information about Royal R R Reif and his machine and how I was, quote, treated for my depression and anxiety by it.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

The problem with rife and like other kind of technical snake oil salesmen is that it's really hard to understand what they're trying to do because there's so little science behind it. So when you like, he describes his, like his beam ray that could kill pathogens, which there's no real explanation for, like how any of that can work. There are certain things, like ultrasonic frequencies that can, like, heat up cells and, and, and damage them or kill them. There are like ionizing radiation which can kill cells. But his things seem to be generally that if you found the right electrical frequency to vibrate people at, that would somehow kill pathogens or kill cancer or whatever kind of thing it was. And I see they've also. Because I read his, like, early 1930s stuff and didn't really talk about mental health. But I assume they've now moved the market there because it's another place to make money. But there's just no. I just can't understand how it's meant to work. I just don't get any mechanism by which it's supposed to work.

[Jane Marie]

The thing that I found in common with that and the essential oils is that they, the mode of application would be systemic. It's not targeted. So, you know, like, if they plug in a certain frequency and I'm holding two paddles or whatever in my hands, how is the vibration supposed to find the place in my body? Even if it were like, this is assuming a lot. But let's say it did work or the oil did work. How does the oil find the right spot in my body to. I feel like it's a complete misunderstanding of, like, how our system works.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Yeah. Because I think I, I'm not, I'm not a medical doctor. I, I know stuff, but I'm not a medical doctor. And like, I think people can get confused, especially when you think about if you have dental pain, for example, and you take a painkiller, somehow your dental pain stops hurting. And if you have a sore wrist and you take an ibuprofen, somehow your wrist stopped hurting. And there's a lot to do with how are the drugs binder of us and how that affects our pain receptors, for example. So people kind of have an assumption that, well, your body kind of works it out by itself. Especially when you get a lot of pseudoscience that talks about how our body knows what it needs best and listen to what your body says. Your body's smarter than people tell you it is.

[Jane Marie]

So ibuprofen works by inhibiting prostaglandins, which are found all over your body, and they're responsible for inflammation and pain. Take one and the thing that's hurting stops hurting for a bit. But with a rife machine, there's no mechanism by which holding onto two low power electrodes can cure a person of their anxiety. That's just not the way the physical world works. I also sent Dr. Dodd the website of the manufacturers of the magnisphere, which even they seem oddly confused by.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Once again, it's one of the things where they can take relatively real science and then extrapolated to the point where it is, it is just magic. The thing I looked up this website and I was astonished by the video that told me it doesn't cure anything and here's how it's going to cure you, which was a great twist of a video, but I guess that's a legal thing. So I don't know, I'm not American, I don't quite know how all your laws work.

[Jane Marie]

But before we get started, the information you are about to see is for educational information about our wellness system. We help you enhance feelings of relaxation and do not diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any diseases. If you have any questions or concerns about our system and your health, please consult your physician.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

But the thing that drove me really nuts is it compared it to an MRI machine, which explicitly shows you that people who are reading that are being tricked into not knowing what an MRI machine is. Because an MRI machine is a beautiful piece of technology that was developed in Nottingham by Dr. Mansfield. And he found that him and many other contributors found that you could put the human body or many things under a high magnetic field and it would cause the protons, in this case to fall out of alignment to where they would want to be traditionally. And then when you turn off the field, the protons fall back into position, so when the field is on, they deviate from their original position. And then when you turn it off, they return back to their position. And then you have detectors around the person or whatever you're scanning that can interpret these photons into an image that can be read by a radiologist.

[Jane Marie]

I'll try to simplify here. An MRI is a way of taking a picture of your insides. That's it. First you take your jewelry off, definitely. And then you lie in a machine and a very strong magnet is turned on. And that magnet, on an atomic level causes protons to move just a tiny bit. Then the magnet's turned off, and as those protons move back into place, they release energy in the form of photons, which are like little light particles. That's what's captured on the image of an mri. And so when we're talking about me getting inside a Magnus sphere, that is not at all what's happening.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

No, because when you get into a static field, like, whatever happens happens as you get into the static field. And then when you lie in the static field, nothing happens because you're just in the static field. And then when you get out of the static field, you just return to how you were before you were in the magnetic field. I don't know any other mechanism by which that isn't the case. I tried looking, and I don't really see anything that makes sense. And their website obviously doesn't tell you how it's meant to work. I worked around some pretty heavy magnets when I was doing my own studies. And like, we couldn't go near with credit cards. And these were like magnets that we just had in our lap and we had to stay a certain Disney, or a credit card, or you might just wipe it that you could, like, if you move slowly enough in and out, you could kind of prevent the wiping happening. So the fact that they didn't take anything or didn't even check for any ferrous material is a sign that it's not really doing anything.

[Jane Marie]

Can we also talk about the distrust of science? Like, I think a lot of people believe that scientists like you or doctors have some secret that you're keeping from the rest of us, and that somehow you're making money by not telling us how physics works, while at the same time they think you don't know any more than they do.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

I think the biggest secret science is keeping from the general public is how little money we make just across the board. Like, as a PhD student, I made about €1300amonth, and I lived in a city with rent that was €1,000amonth. So when you do the maths, you realize that I was homeless for periods of my PhD. So that's the biggest secret that we're keeping from people is that we don't have any money. But I think the general distrust comes from the facts. I think it's in two places. Firstly, science is actually quite hard. Not in a bragging kind of way, like just science is difficult. Any subject done to a high level is difficult. And then you add in the complexity that the language of science often isn't the natural language in which you otherwise interact with the world. So, for example, if I went into an undergraduate history course, I might not know what's going on to a great extent, but I can at least follow what's happening in the lecture. I can follow that names are being said and events are being described. If a history graduate walked into an undergraduate physics course, they might not know what the maths on the board even does. They might just physically not have the context or learning at that point to know what it does. And that's not to say they're stupid, it's just to say that they, they don't know, which is fair. I don't know what happened in the Napoleonic wars, but it generally doesn't affect my life to much extent. And then you add on that, like in other fields like chemistry and biology, the wording is quite difficult as well. We use things like autonomic nervous system or whatever it was that the ans that the machine said it would cured. These are technical words that have confusing double meanings because if you say someone is nervous and then you talk about the nervous system, they're different things, they're not the same word being used for the same context. So I think to an extent there is a general impenetrability to science when it's not explained well. I think these days scientists are trying their damnedest to explain it better and trying to get people interested in science and trying to get them to understand what is happening. I was in my second year at university when the Large Hadron Collider found the Higgs boson. And for the first time in my experiences, everyone was talking about physics. Everyone wanted to understand physics, everyone know what was going on. But in general, physics isn't cool and isn't sexy. I spent four and a half years slaving away and my contribution will be read by 30 to 40 people, probably for the next hundred years. You add on to that the science is then attached in some places to such important parts of life, like cancer treatment Cancer is terrifying. I've lost people to cancer. I think everyone I know has lost people to cancer. And if you were told that there was some secret way to cure it, everyone jump on it. And then even the word the cure for cancer is itself like a misnomer. Like there is no cure for cancer. Cancer is a multitude of different diseases which is often relatively unique to each individual. So there will never be a cure for cancer. There will just be better and better treatments until we get to the point where we can effectively have said we've cured cancer because our treatments are such to that that cancer isn't a cause of death anymore. And I think also on top of that is that there is a relative snootiness among some in the scientific like establishment that they think that spending their time talking to average people about physics or chemistry biology isn't the best use of their time, that they're not the majority. But there's a definite strain of disregard for the rest of society. And you can feel this a lot when you're in places like CERN in like very subtle ways that, like, I was in a room where everyone has a doctorate or higher. Like everyone in the room has that and there's like 100 of us in the room. That is not statistically normal, that's not statistically average. There's no way that the rest of society will ever do that. Like, I don't know anyone from my girlfriend's circle of friends that is doing a doctorate. That's just not the case. But I know obviously hundreds of people who did them. So there's kind of an isolationism that builds up within us because we are just in our own circle and in our own separate world. And then so you have. The mixture of the language we use is complicated at times. We're not always the best at explaining it in simple terms. We live in effectively relatively isolated groups because we work on people who have the same qualifications as us. Like we don't apart from outside of HR and secretaries and cleaners, we don't have staff that have different roles and different backgrounds. Everyone has the same background. The kind of perception of eliteness among us and then the fact that like a lot of us use public money to do all our research, then you have that strand of we're wasting the government's money. It makes it much more comforting than to say when something is scary in the world like cancer, to say there's some sort of conspiracy or trick occurring than it is to say that, like, the world is just random and no one knows what happens for any reason. Like, I think the reason why there's a conspiracy that pharmaceutical companies have cured cancer, but they won't give it out because it's more. It's more profitable to like, not do that is that it's much more comforting to think that there's a scary bogeyman. There's nothing you can do about it. Like, you can't do that. They're rich, they're released. There's nothing you can do about it. Than it is to kind of stare in the face that you don't have a choice whether you get cancer. Like, it just happens. There's nothing you can do about it in terms of like, you can obviously lower risk factors. You cannot smoke, you cannot drink, you cannot eat red meat. But end of the day, there's nothing you can do at the end to stop it. If it happens, it happens. So I just think it's a kind of trying to understand a world which is scary. Scientists are a relatively easy group to kind of demonize for treating everyone else as if they're not deserving of what we have, which is kind of not what we're trying to do.

[Jane Marie]

What are you trying to do?

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Personally? The professional answer is we're trying to increase humanity's understanding of the world around us and to gain a better appreciation for our position and place in the universe. The real answer is that we just like playing with things and we just want to play with bigger and bigger things.

[Jane Marie]

Do you have any thoughts about the personality types of people who espouse these sorts of treatments?

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Well, it depends on which level they are in the grift and those people who are trying to pass off whatever young Living has told them. I mostly view them as a mixture of, like, desperation in, like, to get the product to be successful or kind of a slight bit of will for ignorance or like just kind of general understandable ignorance on the topic. I don't view them as any particular level of like, insidious or nasty. The people higher up I have very little patience for. I think they are either completely delusional about what they are selling and therefore I don't trust them to have the ability to rationally think about what they're doing or they know it's a grift, at which point they are actively promoting a thing which is highly likely to cause someone to die or get worse because they will actively avoid traditional treatment over their alternative treatment. And if the health outcomes to the alternative treatment are there are no benefits, you are actively signing death warrants to people who choose to follow and believe what you believe or what you are trying to sell. So I think people at the top are generally disgusting and are not worthy of any respect or consideration. I know a lot of these when you read their works, like the radionics guys and the early essential oils guys, a lot of it was attached to like religious ideas or spiritualist ideas where they could then blame you for it not working. You didn't believe in it or you didn't take, you didn't do it properly. And I think the same applies to many of these new wellness ideas that if it's not, what if it's not working, the fault somehow lies with you, not the machine. And therefore that's in self quite insidious as a business model. But when you start applying it to things like anxiety and depression, that's an incredibly like nasty and evil way to approach trying to help someone by telling them that they are the reason why they're condition isn't getting better when you're just selling them something that you know or either you know or you blindly believe it works. But you should know that it doesn't work, it doesn't do anything. So I don't know, I just find them as a whole quite a gross industry.

[Jane Marie]

I swear to God I did not coach him to say any of that. Next time on the Dream, we were discussing carbohydrate and she's like, well, can I have carrots or pumpkin instead of carbohydrate? I was like, no, because that's not carbohydrate in the form that you need it.

[Dan Gallucci]

Right?

[Jane Marie]

You know, because for her, even though her weight is normal, even though her energy intake is normal, because her carb intake is so low, her periods have stopped. Oh my gosh. The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere and Stitcher, written and reported by me and Dan Gallucci. Editing by Peter Clowney and Tracy Samuelson, producing by Lyra Smith and Stephanie Kariuki. The Dream is executive produced by me, Dan Gallucci, Peter Clowney and Chris Bannon. Our mixing engineers are Casey Holford and Brendan Burns. Rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen. Thank you. And if you have a wellness experience, good or bad, that you'd like to share on our show, please call 715-600-0326. That's 715-600326 and leave us a voicemail. You may be featured on the program later this season.

[Dan Gallucci]

Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.

[Jane Marie]

Then stay in bed and let a Boost mobile expert and set it up for you.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

Oh actually they will have to get up and open the door.

[Jane Marie]

Oh right. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] terms apply.

[Knox (Popcast Host)]

Hi, this is Knox from the podcast with Knox and Jamie and maybe like us at the podcast you also know people who have been smokers or vapers and Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen Nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen Nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke free hands free free nicotine satisfaction and you can choose between 10 varieties. Each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Dr. Liam Dodd]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if.

[Jane Marie]

You could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Hey dream listeners. It's finally here. The Dream plus where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads. It's $5 a month. It's the only tier. No commercials plus bonus content. This helps keep us independent and your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the Dream. We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show, which is annoying to both you and us. We're also going to have an amazing discussion board. The interface has it cataloged under ama. Ask me anything, but I don't love rules. So what I did is started a bunch of threads like Ask Dan and I Questions, General Chitchat, just to make friends and stuff. And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shoppin' and it's there. And we're just going to talk about what we bought and it'll be fun. That's TheDream S u p e r C-A-S t.com Supercast please, please go subscribe. It's five bucks. It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles. See you there.