Podcast Summary: The Dream – “Proxy Podcast Take Over!”

Host: Little Everywhere/The Dream | Guest Host: Yowei Shaw (“Proxy” podcast)
Episode Date: January 29, 2026

Overview

This unique crossover episode of “The Dream” features Yowei Shaw, host of the podcast “Proxy,” taking over to deliver a deep-dive episode about the role of emotion—especially anger and grief—in activism. The show focuses on a case study of Nicole, a labor organizer struggling with “aggro mode” (channeling anger into work), and features a rich interview with political theorist and ACT UP veteran Deborah “Debbie” Gold. Together, they unpack how activists survive and sustain in the face of unending battles, burnout, and a culture that often suppresses collective grief.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Proxy’s Emotional Investigations

• Yowei Shaw introduces herself as an “emotional investigative journalist” (01:02) and describes “Proxy” as a show where personal problems are addressed through proxy conversations with strangers who’ve faced similar issues:

  "We take on personal problems that make people feel confused and isolated... and we scour the world for a proxy for them to talk to." (01:13)

• The episode selected: “Nicole Can’t Stop Being Aggro,” centers on how Nicole’s anger, effective in her organizing work, can contaminate her personal relationships.

2. Nicole’s “Aggro Mode”: The Double-Edged Sword of Anger

• Nicole is a labor organizer with a gift for channeling anger into action for social justice—domestic worker rights, trans healthcare, Gaza protests (06:47–09:15).
• Downside: Anger (“aggro mode”) sometimes spills over, negatively impacting friends and loved ones:

  "I stand on business that I will scare your boyfriend and your husband, and then I will be happy about that." – Nicole (08:46)

• She’s aware of its cost:

  "You're like hanging out... and then everyone's like, oh, fuck... I'm not acting as kindly to other people as I want or to myself." – Nicole (10:48)

• Underlying Grief: Nicole speculates her relentless organizing helps her avoid confronting overwhelming sadness about the state of the world:

  "If I'm stuck in my sadness, am I gonna be unable to put one foot in front of the other and make a plan?" – Nicole (13:21)

3. Grief, Restorative Justice, and Historical Parallels

• Yowei connects Nicole’s experience to psychotherapeutic ideas—restorative justice and psychodrama—where proxy conversations help process trauma when direct closure isn’t available (04:22–05:09).
• Nicole finds moments to process grief watching raw footage from ACT UP, the HIV/AIDS activist group, especially videos of collective mourning and action:

  "She'll open up her laptop and pull up these videos from a queer activist group known as ACT UP... Nicole watches these videos and cries." (14:03)

4. Enter the Proxy: Interview with Deborah “Debbie” Gold (21:17–56:02)

Parallels Between Nicole and Debbie

• Both are queer, Jewish, anti-Zionist, passionate union organizers.
• Debbie was a core ACT UP member during the AIDS crisis, now a political theorist at UC Santa Cruz.

ACT UP: Anger as Survival, Not Shame

• ACT UP’s foundational energy was outrage:

  "As a movement, to be a proper AIDS activist, you had to be outraged. And in that culture of feelings, there was very little space, if any, for... despair or grief." – Deborah Gold (27:58)

• Mourning was suppressed in favor of action:

  “People are dying. We don’t have time to grieve these deaths.” – Deborah Gold (38:11)

The Cost of Suppressed Grief

• Debbie only truly felt grief after returning to research, post-movement:

  “I would just burst into tears... that grief was really jarring to me because I had really mostly felt anger.” – Deborah Gold (25:56)

• Not facing collective grief led to burnout and silent departures:

  "Because there was no space for it in the movement, a lot of people just kind of exited, quietly exited the movement." (49:45)

Anger, Joy, Erotic Energy: Ingredients for Movement

• ACT UP thrived on more than anger—there was intense camaraderie, humor, public displays of affection, and erotic energy that sustained members:

  "There was already an ACT UP uniform by that point... Just really good looking people, you know, Very queer, Very, very queer." – Deborah Gold (41:37) "We were living at such a high pitch... I found the rest of the world utterly boring at that point." – Deborah Gold (43:46)

• Humor and joy were crucial, even when “the issues we tackle are so serious and the injustices are so enormous and frequently deadly.” (47:30)

The Changing “Emotional Culture” of Activism

• Nicole and Debbie reflect on how modern organizing spaces sometimes err in the opposite direction—giving over too much space to processing emotions at the cost of action:

  “Someone can hold a group hostage by their particular strong feeling about something or turn an activist scene into a therapy session. And that’s... not appropriate.” – Deborah Gold (35:29)

• Debbie advises a “both/and” approach:

  “Navigating some of those feelings doesn’t mean letting them take you over or losing track of what we’re really here for.” (36:45)

5. Advice on Sustainability, Grief, and Leadership

• Debbie cautions against movements relying on a handful “angry engines”:

  “A movement can’t sustain itself. If people feel like I'm the only one who can do this... Everybody needs to be able to take a break.” (54:01)

• Nicole finds comfort in the possibility that feeling grief will not break her nor take her out of the fight:

  "Crying as leadership development is what I'm hearing." – Nicole (54:43)

• Debbie closes with optimism about change and the impossibility of going backwards:

  “The harms are beyond belief. But they can't put the stuff they want to put back into the bottle. They can't put it back into the bottle because we carry it forward.” (56:02)

Notable Quotes & Moments (Timestamps)

• "We take on personal problems that make people feel confused and isolated... and we scour the world for a proxy for them to talk to." – Yowei Shaw (01:13)
• "I stand on business that I will scare your boyfriend and your husband, and then I will be happy about that." – Nicole (08:46)
• “Anger is easy for me to feel... More people need to get mad. If you’re not mad, we’re not chill.” – Nicole (09:51)
• "If I'm stuck in my sadness, am I gonna be unable to put one foot in front of the other and make a plan...?" – Nicole (13:21)
• “ACT UP was an antidote to despair... As a movement, to be a proper AIDS activist, you had to be outraged. And in that culture of feelings, there was very little space, if any, for... despair or grief.” – Deborah Gold (27:58)
• "We are the AIDS coalition to unleash power, united in Anger..." – Deborah Gold (32:12)
• “Someone can hold a group hostage by their particular strong feeling... turn an activist scene into a therapy session. And that's... not appropriate.” – Deborah Gold (35:29)
• “Crying as leadership development is what I'm hearing.” – Nicole (54:43)
• "They can't put the stuff they want to put back into the bottle... because we carry it forward." – Deborah Gold (56:02)

Noteworthy Sections & Timestamps

• Intro, Yowei on Proxy’s mission – 01:02–03:40
• Nicole’s struggle and coping mechanisms – 09:07–13:21
• Parallels with ACT UP / Debbie’s background – 21:17–25:56
• Debbie on ACT UP’s culture, anger, and mourning – 27:58–38:53
• ACT UP’s emotional palette: anger, joy, erotic energy – 41:35–47:19
• Discussion of modern organizing & emotional cultures – 35:18–37:17
• Debrief on grief, burnout, and sustaining movements – 49:45–52:42
• Closing gratitude and cross-generational hope – 56:02–56:47

Tone & Language

The tone is candid, witty, and emotionally raw—alternating between wry humor, vulnerability, and unflinching activism. The hosts and guests speak in plain, passionate language, often leaning into irreverence (“I stand on business that I will scare your boyfriend and your husband...”) but never shying away from the emotional or political stakes.

Final Takeaways

• Anger can be a galvanizing, even sustaining, force for activism, but over-dependence on outrage can crowd out necessary grief and lead to burnout.
• Movements need room for multiple emotions: anger, grief, joy, humor, eroticism, camaraderie—all sustain different forms of resistance.
• Examining the “emotional cultures” of activism, past and present, sheds light on why movements succeed, struggle, or dissipate.
• Collective processing of hard emotions like grief may help movements and the people within them endure, transforming individual suffering into shared resilience.
• The legacy of ACT UP, and the wisdom of its veterans, continues to inform and inspire younger generations of organizers.

Resources Mentioned

• Book: “Moving Politics: Emotion and ACT UP’s Fight against AIDS” by Deborah (Debbie) Gold

Contact & Community

• Have an emotional conundrum? Email: proxythepodmail.com
• Listen to more: patreon.com/proxypodcast

Summary prepared for listeners and organizers seeking nuanced insight into the emotional underpinnings of activism and collective survival.