The Antidote to Trickery

Summary

The Dream — "The Antidote to Trickery"

Host: Jane Marie
Guest: Diane Benscoter, founder of Antidote
Date: February 19, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Dream marks a new era for the podcast as Jane Marie returns with a revamped, more flexible format focused on the “American Dream” and the obstacles in its path. The main theme centers on psychological manipulation—how it entraps even intelligent, well-meaning people, and what can serve as an antidote. Guest Diane Benscoter shares her journey from being a member of the Moonies cult to helping others escape psychological manipulation through her organization, Antidote. The conversation deeply explores cult tactics, vulnerability, brainwashing, and the mechanisms behind manipulation in both spiritual and commercial settings.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Diane Benscoter and Antidote

• [01:39] Diane introduces herself as the founder of Antidote.
  • “Antidote takes a public health approach to psychological manipulation… We’re working to build a public health framework for this ever increasing problem.” — Diane Benscoter
• Antidote focuses on education and policy, aiming to build collective immunity against manipulation.

---

2. What Is Psychological Manipulation?

• [02:00] Diane clarifies it's not about intelligence:
  • “Oftentimes people think that people join cults or get scammed… must be lacking some sort of intelligence. And I don’t agree with that at all.” — Jane Marie
• Manipulation occurs on a psychological, not rational, level: people are seeking happiness, belonging, or self-worth and manipulators exploit these needs.

---

3. Diane’s Cult Experience: The Moonies

• [03:37-09:38]
  • Diane recounts being recruited into the Moonies at 17 during a “Walk for World Peace.”
  • She describes the profound sense of attention and “love bombing” she received:
    • “They seemed to care about me in a way that was unusual… I liked them asking me these questions and really caring about what I said and telling me that I was special.” — Diane Benscoter [05:57]
  • The power of lectures and community rituals in cultivating belief and group identity.

---

4. Leaving the Cult and Becoming a Deprogrammer

• [10:46-15:01]
  • Diane describes her “deprogramming” and the identity confusion and devastation that followed:
    • “There was like, a whisper that started with, you know, what if this whole thing is a lie? That got louder and louder… It was the most devastating moment in my life.” — Diane Benscoter [14:35]
  • She became a deprogrammer herself, assisting other cult members, but was eventually arrested due to the coercive tactics used at the time.

---

5. The Mechanics of Manipulation and Deprogramming

• [19:56-26:48]
  • Diane details the controversial history of “involuntary deprogramming”—essentially interventions, sometimes involving kidnapping, which have since become obsolete.
  • Distinguishes between “programming” and “deprogramming”:
    • “It’s really just shedding light on the tactics of manipulation… and helping them realize that maybe they’ve been scammed and lied to, taken advantage of.” — Diane Benscoter [26:10]

---

6. The Public Health Approach & Modern Threats

• [29:17-30:44]
  • Antidote now educates the general public and pushes for policies regulating manipulative mediums, including social media and AI:
    • “So that we can have guardrails, for instance, around social media and artificial intelligence tools that can be used as vehicles for pushing disinformation and taking advantage of people.” — Diane Benscoter [29:59]

---

7. Tactics of Manipulation

• [30:44-35:34]
  • Manipulators target people's vulnerabilities: loneliness, distrust of institutions, need for belonging.
  • Key cult tactics:
    1. Polarization — isolating people in “information silos.”
    2. Exceptionalism — convincing followers they have unique knowledge or status.
    3. Dependency — making the group/community central to a person’s identity.
    4. Us vs. Them — fostering division from outsiders, reinforcing group cohesion.
  • “Once it becomes your identity, then to leave it would cause you a lot of shame… They become more dependent on the community that is inside this little bubble.” — Diane Benscoter [34:05]

---

8. Why Aren’t Bowling Leagues Cults? (And How Cults Are Different)

• [35:34-36:48]
  • It's the intentionality and control mechanisms that differentiate cults from benign communities:
    • “When you’re in a bowling league… they’re not trying to control what you do at home. They’re not trying to control all aspects of your life...” — Diane Benscoter [36:00]

---

9. The Psychology of Manipulators

• [37:22-41:01]
  • Most cult leaders are “malignant narcissists” — characterized by lack of empathy and self-delusion about their greatness.
  • Manipulation becomes self-perpetuating, with group leaders and favored followers repeating the same tactics.
    • “You say the things that have been said to you, you push the things that have been pushed on you, you try to convince people of the things you’ve bought into…” — Diane Benscoter [38:55]

---

10. The Role of “Thought-Terminating Clichés”

• [41:01-44:10]
  • These are repeated phrases or slogans that shut down critical thinking or debate within the group.
    • “Cult members definitely use these phrases that mean something within the group and that perpetuates the us versus them model…” — Diane Benscoter [41:30]
  • The way to intervene is not to argue doctrine, but to focus on exposing the manipulative tactics themselves.

---

11. The American Dream, Wealth, and Vulnerability to Scams

• [44:10-46:47]
  • Financial aspiration is commonly exploited in manipulative organizations, but manipulators can find a cult for any deep human need.
  • The solution: Widespread awareness of manipulation and its tactics:
    • “One of the things that I find that is the antidote to that… is understanding the trickery of psychological manipulation. Once you really get that… the chances of you being taken advantage of in that way are really slim.” — Diane Benscoter [46:10]

---

Memorable Quotes

• On why smart people get scammed:
  “The people we talk to for our program are highly intelligent, well educated… and people feel like that’s incongruous…”
  —Jane Marie [02:57]

• On “love bombing”:
  “That’s what it felt like, they were constantly just love bombing us, the guests. And so it was really compelling…”
  —Diane Benscoter [06:40]

• Epiphany upon being deprogrammed:
  “There was like, a whisper that started with, you know, what if this whole thing is a lie? That got louder and louder… It was the most devastating moment in my life.”
  —Diane Benscoter [14:35]

• On what’s unique about harmful groups:
  “You’re not in an environment where there’s an intentional goal to control your decision making process and that people become assets to these predators…”
  —Diane Benscoter [36:48]

• The ultimate antidote:
  “Once you really get that [how manipulation works], the chances of you being taken advantage of in that way are really slim. Because no one wants to play the fool.”
  —Diane Benscoter [46:10]

---

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Diane recounts her recruitment into the Moonies: [05:46-09:38]
• The devastating moment of losing her faith: [13:54-15:01]
• A behind-the-scenes look at old-school deprogramming tactics: [20:44-24:44]
• How “lesser evil” became a legal defense in deprogramming cases: [24:09-24:41]
• The mechanics and lifecycle of a manipulative organization: [32:29-36:48]
• Diane explains “thought-terminating clichés” and why arguing doctrine doesn’t work: [41:01-44:10]
• Practical advice: Education as the best protection: [46:10]

---

Episode Tone and Takeaways

The tone balances empathy with humor and frustration, especially as the host and guest reflect on the tragic absurdities of psychological manipulation. Jane Marie brings self-deprecation and curiosity, while Diane offers wisdom rooted in personal pain and decades of experience. The message is hopeful—exposure to and understanding of manipulative tricks is the best defense against them.

If you’ve never listened before, this episode is a gripping primer on how trickery works, why even smart people fall for it, and how education and awareness can serve as the antidote.

---

Further Resources

• Diane’s Memoir: Shoes of a My Unconditional Devotion to a Lie
• Antidote Organization: [Information not provided in transcript]
• Contact: helloitalittleeverywhere.com | 323-248-1488

---

End of summary. All times in MM:SS format. Ad breaks, promotional segments, and non-content omitted.

Transcript

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

This is an ad by BetterHelp.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go?

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Take a breath. You're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel free. Better.

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the Dream.

[Diane Benskoder]

I'm Diane Benskoder and I'm the founder of a nonprofit called Antidote.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And what is Antidote?

[Diane Benskoder]

Antidote takes a public health approach to psychological manipulation. We're working to build a public health framework for this ever increasing problem of psychological manipulation.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Before we go further, what do you mean by psychological manipulation?

[Diane Benskoder]

What I mean by that is that a lot of people don't realize how prone they are to being taken advantage of on a psychological level. And oftentimes people think that people join cults or get scammed in different ways and that that takes place on a critical thinking, rational level. But mostly it takes place on a psychological level where people are seeking happiness or to feel better about themselves or they get something out of the scam, if you will, that makes them feel better about themselves. And so the controls that are taking place, the manipulation is actually taking place on a psychological level. And I think that's really critical to understand.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

We spoke a little bit about it in the first season of the Dream which was focused on multi level marketing and just all the tricks that are played on us and the tricks we play on ourselves and our minds and, you know, just how people we talk to for our program are highly intelligent, well educated, you know, suckers, eventually. And people feel like that's incongruous, that people who get taken in by these, you know, scammers must be, like, lacking some sort of intelligence. And I don't agree with that at all. So I'm really glad to be talking to you. Can you tell me a little bit about your background, like, what got you into this work?

[Diane Benskoder]

Sure. It started when I was 17 and joined a religious cult commonly known as the Moonies. I was a devoted member of the group, fully believing that the second coming of Christ had occurred and that Sung Myung Moon was the Messiah. And I dedicated myself fully to that for five years until I went through what's referred to as a deprogramming. I had quit high school. I was seeking a way to end the war or join a commune or do something to make the world better. I was very idealistic. I grew up in a tiny little town in the middle of Nebraska, and I was very influenced by the music of the era. And the Vietnam War was going on when I was young, and I saw friends of mine's older siblings going off to war and dying or coming home really messed up. And I just thought the most important thing in the world was stopping the war. And. And so, of course, my family was really upset about it. But I had gone off to live with my brother in Lincoln, and that's where I met the Mooney's. They were handing out bananas with flyers wrapped around them, and it said Walk for world Peace around the flyer. And I decided to go on this walk. And it was during that walk that I was indoctrinated or recruited into the group.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

One walk?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, it doesn't take that long, really.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Oh, wow. Were you religious before this?

[Diane Benskoder]

No. I grew up in a Christian family. We were Methodist. Went to church.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Me too.

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah. You know, it's more like a potluck.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Not the same as the Moonies?

[Diane Benskoder]

No, no. You know, it was. So it kind of set me up. I had a framework for the doctrine, for the teachings that Christ was going to return, you know, and so that landed in a place that I could relate to.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Do you remember anything about what that walk and talk was like?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, it was. At first, I was. I thought they seemed really weird and strange and dressed funny, and I tried to.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

How did they dress?

[Diane Benskoder]

Well, you know, remember this was the 70s, and they wore, like, long skirts, long, flowy skirts, and the men wore ties and had their hair cut really short. And that just wasn't what was going on, you know, in the culture of the time. There was always two of them. There were five of us guests that went on this and there were two people assigned to each of us at all time. We tried to like sneak away to hang out with each other more because we could relate to each other, especially in the beginning. But there were always a couple of people walking next to us and asking lots of questions. We'd walk and walk and walk and get to a place where the leader had made arrangements with little churches along the way. On this walk from Omaha to Des moines, it was 150 miles. Oh my gosh, I know. A walk. Oh yeah, it took us a week. And one of the things that really made an impression on me was how sincere they were or seemed to know me and to understand my view of what was wrong with the world, or they wanted to know everything about me. And they seemed to care about me in a way that was unusual and that I liked the attention. I liked them asking me these questions and really caring about what I said and telling me that I was special and that they thought that God had prepared me for something really special. That the reason that I was struggling and I was. I was like a lost child was because God had a plan for me. And the more they talked about that and then their excitement was infectious. They were so excited about the work they were doing. And they call it love bombing. That was a term used in the early anti cult world. And that's what it felt like was that they were constantly just love bombing us, the guests. And so it was really compelling to understand. The other thing was that there was a lecture every night. We stayed in little church basements along the way. No one knew who the Mooney's were at that time. And so they were just saying we were evangelical. We were going to hear this evangelical Christian speak and could we just stay in the basement? That this was a walk for world peace. And so these little churches in these little towns along the way would typically accommodate us. And then the leader of the Nebraska center would lecture to us at night and we were already tired. And. But these lectures would go on and the members were all just hanging on every word he was saying, like. Like it was the most phenomenal thing ever. And by the end of the walk, the last lecture explained how God had prepared to bring his son back and all of the reasons how we would know that it was the Messiah. And so they had all these reasons that we Would know he would come from the east. He would be born in a certain era according to God's timeline. All of these things pointed to someone that was born around the time Sun Myung Moon was born, and we were going to hear him. And all of us guests had this kind of epiphany that, oh, my God, we were on our way to meet the Messiah.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Wow.

[Diane Benskoder]

All of us, each of us joined that day that we heard the conclusion lecture.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

So, I mean, that does sound thrilling if you buy it, right?

[Diane Benskoder]

It was thrilling.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

You're meeting God, really. So for our younger listeners who don't remember the Moonies, I do. I remember the magazine covers of the mass weddings and stuff. But that's the Moonies, right? Where, like, hundreds of people would get married at one time?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, that's them. And they still exist. Sun Myung Moon is dead, but they've kind of broken off into sects of the organization run by different members of the family, and they're still very dangerous.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Is he coming back again?

[Diane Benskoder]

No, but his son has taken over the reigns, and the goal is to build the kingdom of heaven on earth, so. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

So that work's not done. Okay?

[Diane Benskoder]

No, it's not. I was messed up for a long time.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

What do you mean by messed up?

[Diane Benskoder]

Well, I was young. I was 21 when I got out, and I couldn't really go home. I didn't want to go back to Nebraska. How did you get out? My family hired a programmer. Really? Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Oh, good for you. And them.

[Diane Benskoder]

And then I became a deprogrammer. I worked in this rehab house where people were coming from different cults and working. And then I started going out on cases and eventually was arrested for kidnapping and. What?

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Slow down. Slow down a little bit. All right, so you were in the Moonies, and then, like, talk me through the day that the deprogrammer entered your life.

[Diane Benskoder]

Okay, let me just say this, though. As long as we're going here, I have a book, a memoir. It's called Shoes of a My Unconditional Devotion to a Lie. That is my telling of my story of joining the group, what it was like inside, what it was like getting out. And then what it was like being a deprogrammer and getting arrested, etc.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Everyone go buy that book right now.

[Diane Benskoder]

But, yeah, my family hired someone to come and talk to me, and I agreed to talk to them because I thought that I would be able to prove to them that I was okay and that my mom could finally relax about what I was doing.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And where were you and where was she?

[Diane Benskoder]

Well, I had become kind of a problem within the cult because I was starting to not want to fundraise every day of my life. And I thought that maybe I could do better for God and that if they would just let me go to school, maybe I could, you know, be more productive for God in the group. And so they let me go live with my brother and go to school, University of Iowa. But the cognitive dissonance of that life, trying to go to school and live when I still completely believed that Messiah was on the earth, and it just didn't work. And so I called them and told them I wanted to come back and repent, and that I'd made a mistake by being so individualistic, which was a bad word in the Moonies. And so that's when my mom called and said, can I just come and see you before you go?

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

In Iowa City?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yes. And so I had heard that she had been trying to have me deprogrammed. So I made her promise that she wouldn't bring a deprogrammer. And the deprogrammer came in a different car. So she kept her word, officially. Anyway, when Ellen, the deprogrammer, showed up, I was really mad. But I agreed to talk to her just because I wanted to prove my mom wrong. And I wanted her to be relieved about the fact that she'd been so worried about me.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And you were so convinced that you were right.

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, I had no doubt at all. No. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

You had no worries going into this argument?

[Diane Benskoder]

No, no. And then when she started going over, like, showing me how the discrepancy in the belief system and all the things that were not true in the cult that, you know, that I thought, well, I could just. As soon as I get back, I can get someone who knows more about the teachings to be able to show me why it is right after all. But then when she started going through Robert Lifton's work on thought reform and the psychology of totalism, where he defines what brainwashing is in these eight different points, that's when I started seeing. Every single one rang true to me. And I started. There was like, a whisper that started with, you know, what if this whole thing is a lie? That got louder and louder until at one point, I remember screaming, and it felt like glass was breaking around me. And it was a horrible, devastating moment when I realized that, oh, my God, the Messiah isn't here. This whole thing. This whole thing was a lie. And it was the most devastating moment in my life. It was horrible.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

Back in a minute.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

This podcast is sponsored by gab.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

The youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know social media is driving it. This shocked me. Teens spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full time job outside of school, just scrolling endlessly. The US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety. This is unbelievable. Or crazy.

[Diane Benskoder]

Believable.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

45% of girls and 32% of boys feel overwhelming stress from being on social media. And together 25% of both feel worse about their own lives. Here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in Steps. Tech in Steps works by providing kid safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens. Each device grows with your child. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Give them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. I can't recommend Gab enough. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gabb.com thedream and the code the dream for a special offer I've been.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Really drawn to clothes that just work. The pieces you reach for without thinking. That's what Quince does so well. They're all about elevated essentials that feel effortless, easy to layer, easy to mix, and built to last. Quint's has all the staples covered, but with quality you actually feel things like 100% organic cotton sweaters, premium stretch denim that's comfortable all day, and those soft cotton cashmere blends that are perfect when the seasons start shifting. These are the pieces you wear on repeat. Like my short sleeve ivory cashmere T shirt. It goes with everything and everybody loves it. And it's kind of fuzzy and I get a lot of compliments on it. Also, I have a couple of their body suits, their camisoles that can go under everything, including the sweater I just mentioned. And they have bedding. I have sheets from there. This like Beautiful deep, dusty rose 100, 100% cotton sheets.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

They're gorgeous.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

What I also love is how Quince works. They partner directly with safe ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for great materials, not brand markup you can see it in the details. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. Everything holds up season after season. I can't tell you how much I am loving that sweater I was talking about. It's a total staple, even through spring. It's really lightweight. And honestly, I'm already planning to get one for my daughter. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comthedream for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's qu U I n c e.com thedream I like shopping online. Okay, whatever. I'll admit it.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And I'm doing it from my phone.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

And I'm doing it in bed. So the other day I was shopping for a jellycat, a rare jelly cat, and I was looking at like five different websites and when it came time to buy the jelly cat that I needed, it's just, you know, nice. If there's like a checkout button that I can use. When you see that little purple pay button, it's one tap, everything's right there. And suddenly checkout is easy again. That button is Shoppay from Shopify, the commercial platform behind millions of businesses worldwide. And about 10% of all E commerce in the US from huge household names to brands is just getting started there. If you're building a business, Shopify gives.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

You everything in one place.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

You can design a beautiful store with ready to use templates, use built in AI tools to write product descriptions and polish photos and create email and social campaigns that actually help people find you. And as things grow, Shopify grows with you, handling inventory, payments, shipping, returns, all from one dashboard with 24.

[Podcast Host (Jane Marie)]

7 support.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

If you get stuck, see less carts get abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com dream. Go to shopify.com dream that's shopify.com dream.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Hey, marketers, here's something to note. 75% of listeners don't consider podcasters to be influencers. Yet 84% say a podcaster has changed their mind about something they believed. That's the paradox of podcast influence. It's built on credibility, not clout. Trust, not trends. Acast's podcast Pulse 2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resonance, multiplatform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. Get the full report free at podcastpulse2025.com.

[Diane Benskoder]

I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what I liked. I didn't know how to live life. I didn't know what I believed or. I had no idea what to do. And then Ellen offered to let me come. And she needed a roommate at the time, and I went and lived with her and got a job waitressing. And then she told me about this opportunity working in a rehab house for people leaving cults. And I went to Minnesota to work in that rehab house and then started going out on these cases. Mostly they, you know, these families would need help getting their loved one out of a cult. Mostly I went on Mooney cases because it really helps to have someone from the group you were in, you know, And.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

And is this the late 70s or where we are?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, it was, like, early 80s. And. And so during that time, they were all involuntary. People would come home and, let's go see Uncle Bob's new house. They hadn't been home for years in some cases. And then it was, welcome to your deprogramming at Uncle Bob's new house. And people, family members and friends would stand in front of the doors and windows while the team of deprogrammers came in with their suitcases full of information and cassette tapes of former members and, you know, everything they could bring to help talk to this person.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And by they, you mean you.

[Diane Benskoder]

Me, you would bring. I. And others. There was this kind of underground railroad kind of thing going on, and so we would come and we would talk to the person for, like, a week maybe, and we would hope that they would sleep a lot, and we'd try to give them good food and, you know, be around their family.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

You were in their house for a week with the doors and windows blocked?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, that's how it worked.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Where did you sleep?

[Diane Benskoder]

We'd sleep there, basically, in another room or whatever. Wow. Yeah, it was pretty intense. It was like a intervention, but really extreme intervention, and no one does it like that anymore. And my kidnapping charge, I pled guilty, and it set a precedent that holds today.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Oh, really? Okay, so when. So how did that one happen?

[Diane Benskoder]

Well, so everything went wrong in this particular case, and the family hired private investigators. This was kind of extreme situation where they couldn't get her to come home. They'd come over from another country and to get their daughter out, who joined in America while she was visiting or at school or something, and they picked her up off the street. She was. They had been spying. You know, they had investigators find out where she was, and they actually threw her in a van.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Oh, like Kidnapping style.

[Diane Benskoder]

Kidnapping style. And then went and changed the van. Well, some citizen saw it happen and followed and got the license plate. Anyway, we found out that there were. They were on our tracks, and so we had to get out of there. So we put her in a van and took her to another place and then another place, and it was horrible. And that third place, how long was this? This was over a course of days. We tried to talk to her, but it was not the most conducive situation, obviously. And at the third place, we ended up in this little town in this apartment above this store. And there was no furniture or anything. We fell asleep. She went out the bathroom window, you know, jumped out of a second, you know, was able to. She was okay. She was fine. She got. She went to the police, and they came looking for us. I was able to myself, and someone else went and were given a set of keys to a truck, and we kind of pulled out of town and got out of there while the police were circling around looking. And I flew home, and I was kind of a fugitive for a couple years. They. We used false names, so no one knew who I was. The other people.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Oh, my God.

[Diane Benskoder]

Everybody else was arrested except me. And right then and there, or soon after, and they went to court and fought it and won on a lesser evil charge. And that's rarely used. Rarely won, but then when they got a real thing. Lesser evil. Yeah. You can make a case that what they were doing was a lesser evil than what was going, oh, than what.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Was happening to her.

[Diane Benskoder]

Got it.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Okay.

[Diane Benskoder]

And so they actually won that, but the chances of winning that again were slim by the time they found me.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And you were living under an assumed identity for years?

[Diane Benskoder]

No. Well, I had used an assumed identity in that case, and so I was just myself going, you know, so I just went on with my life, and. And then somebody found out, turned me in, basically. And it was somebody who was an ex member of one group and kind of was called Hopping and went to Scientology, and they encouraged him to tell the police about me. Wow. And so. Okay. Anyway, it was a scary day when they knocked on my door and took me downtown, had me fingerprinted and such, but I had an attorney who offered me a plea bargain of two years unsupervised probation, and it would be expunged from my record as long as I didn't get arrested for anything. And so I hung up my deprogramming shoes and led a really squeaky clean life. And that's what happened. And after that. But no one really did any more of those that I know of. Those intervention hold someone against their will type of deprogrammings. They're all voluntary or get someone to agree to talk to someone.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

How is deprogramming different than programming?

[Diane Benskoder]

The difference lies in helping someone understand how they've been taken advantage of on a psychological level with the goal of them having their autonomy and living their life freely with no expectations of having, you know, any more control over their life or what they're doing, or not pushing any belief system of any kind. It's really just shedding light on the tactics of manipulation that were used on them and helping them realize that maybe they been scammed and lied to, taken advantage of we'll be right back.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Welcome to the Nowadays no Hangover Club. And the first rule of no Hangover club you don't get a hangover. If you're wondering how that's even possible, it's actually pretty simple. You don't have to trade a fun night for a miserable morning anymore. Nowadays is a zero proof THC infused beverage that gives you a clean, balanced buzz. No hangover, no bloat, no regrets. It tastes great, gives you that easy social lift, and just feels like a smarter way to drink. You can pour it over ice, crack open a ready to sip can, and enjoy the moment without overdoing it. And also their bottles are really pretty. I like their sparkling spicy lime flavor and then their cranberry cocktail mixer. It makes me want a bar cart. It's like frosted glass and it kind.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Of has a pink hue to it.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

It's really pretty. Anyways, visit visit trynowadays.com the dream to get 30% off your order, that's trynowadays.com thedream or use the dream at checkout. Drink responsibly. Must be 21 or older.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

BetterHelp online therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Influencer marketing isn't what it used to be. We're shifting from reach to resonance, from impressions to impact. It's no longer about how many people see your content, it's how deeply you connect with them. And nothing creates that connection quite like podcasts. Acast's podcast pulse 2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resources, resonance, multi platform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. So if you're a marketer who's tired of vanity metrics and looking for meaningful results, podcasts are where you need to be. Download the full research free at podcastpulse2025.com.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Welcome back to my conversation with Diane.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Ben Scoter about her time in a cult and her work now with her.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Deprogramming organization called Antidote.

[Diane Benskoder]

I have helped many people, individuals and families who are caught in various cult like groups to understand what psychological manipulation is and to help them exit the groups or to have effective conversations with their loved ones who are in various types of groups. But you also have to have a lot of education that can get the general population to that tipping point where more people than not understand how the trickery of this type of manipulation so they can protect themselves from it and spot it when they see it. And then the other pillar is policy driven research and such so that we can have guardrails, for instance, around social media and artificial intelligence tools that can be used as vehicles for pushing disinformation and taking advantage of people.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Yeah, and I feel like we're starting to see those discussions happen like in Congress, like this this past year or two, a little bit with social media and fact checking and all of that. Would you tell me a little about how, how psychological manipulation works? I read a few things about how you talked about how it actually rewires the brain.

[Diane Benskoder]

I think what's important to know about psychological manipulation is that it takes place at an intersection of human vulnerability. So you've got people who are feeling vulnerable, they feel lost, lonely, they don't have community, they feel like they might not be able to trust known institutions like the government or educational organizations, educational research, they don't trust the medical industry. And so a lot of people feel really lost and are searching for a way to feel better about themselves or about their life. And so that's the human vulnerability that's just part of the human condition, but is especially prevalent in difficult times like we live in today. And so then when that is when those needs are met with organizations or people who are using tactics that aim squarely at those vulnerabilities in order to gain profit or influence or power, that's where this takes place. So essentially what I'm talking about are predators using tactics that are aimed at people's pain in order to make money or to gain power or influence. That's the Heart of what it is.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And what are some of those tactics?

[Diane Benskoder]

If you want to control someone on a psychological level, what you need to do is to polarize. You want them to just trust you. Anything outside of what you're selling, whether it be a self help program like nxivm, the cult that Keith Renieri was sent to prison for life for that was selling, what they were selling was self improvement, be a better person. Or whether they're selling snake oil type New Age kind of things, crystals, that.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Kind of stuff, or they're selling conferences like Tony Robbins.

[Diane Benskoder]

Yes. Or right. Or they're selling religion or politics. What you have to do is get, is polarize people. You have to get people in an information silo where you're constantly telling them they can't trust anyone outside of this, that this is the answer to all things essentially. So what people get. So you're in pain, you're in psychological pain, you have some sorts of needs on a psychological level that aren't being met. And suddenly you get to feel something that's really wonderful, which is exceptionalism. You get to feel exceptional. You get to feel like you have kind of this special knowledge of how the world works. So once you get them tied in to that belief and you've got them, you've convinced people that they really can't trust anyone but you or your organization, then you have to continuously push toward make them dependent on you. So you keep them carrot in the stick sort of in that you're giving them something you need. So you're constantly feeding them about how wonderful this is. We're the only ones that have this. We're the special people. And you have. Our community is made up of the best people in the world. And you become dependent on that community. It becomes your life and eventually it becomes your identity. And then at the same time you're always condemning everyone else or pitying everyone else because they don't see the truth. And it's too bad for them, you wish they would so that they could jump on board and be part of this wonderful thing happening. So that's how it works. And the problem is that the longer you become part of this environment, and it can even be an online environment, the more dependent on it you become, the more it becomes your identity. And once it becomes your identity, then to leave it would cause you a lot of shame. A lot of times people have told their family about this, they've come on really strong about it and they've got recruited their family? Yes. They try to recruit their family, they try to recruit their friends and when that doesn't work, they become more dependent on the community that is inside this little bubble because they've broken their relationships oftentimes with other people in their lives.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Why doesn't like being a really good bowler? Not saying I am not to brag, but I do have a ball with.

[Diane Benskoder]

My name on it.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

But why doesn't that do the same thing for us? You know, like what is it about? Is it the group think or you know what I mean, like figuring out a way to truly be exceptional. Something doesn't have the same power.

[Diane Benskoder]

I guess it's the intentionality. It's that there is someone or some group of people that are benefiting from this. And so there's a constant effort to keep that polarization going. When you're in a bowling league or you've done well in bowling, they're not trying to control what you do at home. They're not trying to control all aspects of your life or to sell you on the fact that you should devote yourself totally to this.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And they don't shame you if you have a bad night.

[Diane Benskoder]

They may a little.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

They'll pick on you. Yeah, they'll pick on you have to take up the bar tab.

[Diane Benskoder]

You're not in an environment where there's an intentional goal to control your decision making process and that people become assets to these predators. Whether it's a political predator or a business or under the vice of some sort of religion or spirituality, there's somebody who is thinking of the followers or the people that buy into it as their assets and they don't want to lose control of their assets.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Right. Which leads me to a question that probably no one can answer. But what is your opinion? Like, do these manipulators know that they're manipulative and doing bad things?

[Diane Benskoder]

Generally what I've seen is that at the top or the beginning of an organization or group or business like this, there's someone who tends to be a malignant narcissist type of a person and who by that I mean that they are. They lack empathy. They don't necessarily care who they hurt or they believe that this is for the good or they have convinced themselves or the people around them that this is for the ultimate good and worth whatever is whoever gets harmed along the way because it's so important. And then there's, I think that psychological manipulation is self perpetuating. If you are in the head of a cult of some sort or a business organization, an MLM or something. Then.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Or life coaching.

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah, life coaching. You want people that can forward your organization, that can make you more money or give you more power or influence. So people will be kind of picked out to be leaders in the organization and they'll get all kinds of extra attention or benefits, especially on a psychological level, told how great they are and that they're even most special among the special. And then those people perpetuate the tactics of psychological manipulation. It's just kind of a natural, organic thing that happens within a group is that you say the things that have been said to you, you push the things that have been pushed on you. You try to convince people of the things that you've bought into and you buy and more of the dream, you know, this dream of being filthy rich. You know, the dream of being on top. I think a lot of people feel like they don't really have an opportunity to access a lot of the things they want in life. And so this promise of being rich is so compelling. And you see people at the top and you think, I can be like them. And if they give you any attention at all those people at the top, then that makes you think even more. That dream is within my reach. I can have those things.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And dear listeners, I did not pay Diane to say the dream just then.

[Diane Benskoder]

I didn't even think about that.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

So we've had a few episodes where people like the bad guys have like, been eager to come on. Right. Like to come on the show and, you know, argue at me essentially about, you know, whatever I'm saying about them. And oftentimes our producers are like, why.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

Would they say yes?

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

You know, like. And my answer is always, assholes don't know or care that they're assholes. Like bad people. I guess the better. The better version of that is they're malignant narcissists. Yeah, the like, kinder version from. I don't need to call everyone an asshole, but. But what? I guess I could look this up, but like, I don't know what a malignant narcissist is versus a regular narcissist.

[Diane Benskoder]

Oh, I think it's just that on steroids, you know. And I think that they're convinced of their greatness and they use thought terminating cliches and repeat them as if that's all there is to it. So oftentimes they'll use these phrases that have been repeated and repeated over and over and no one questions it, like moon is the Messiah. Ultimately, I mean, that stops everything because how can you question that he is God? So cult members definitely use these phrases that mean something within the group and that perpetuates the us versus them model as well, is that only people inside really understand what we mean when we say these things. And there's an assumption that there's so much more depth to these statements than meets the eye. And so because they've been told that there's this, you know, all this study that's been done, or these people with that are much smarter than any of us that are bringing this information forward, so we shouldn't question, we just repeat these things over and over again that we've heard. And so it's when you have someone like that, like if you had someone like that on the show, I'm sure they would be very polished in their ability to turn anything you say on its side and just repeat those thought terminating cliches or just repeat the rhetoric that they use all the time to make their case. And the thing is that when I do a deprogramming, when I'm helping someone realize that they've been lied to and tricked, you can't really argue with the doctrine. It doesn't do you any good to argue with their belief system because they've got that down path. They'll just repeat it over and over again and they'll just make it look like you're the stupid one not understanding it. But when you start talking about, let's just tear apart whether or not there are psychologically manipulative tactics being used here. Let's talk about what that means. Let's, you know, that they can't answer to. And so if I can get someone to agree to just talk to me about the possibility that maybe they've been taken advantage of on a psychological level and that maybe someone saw them as an asset and took advantage of them for money or power or influence, and what's the harm in talking about it? If you're right, then you'll prove to me that that's not going on. So you take it away from the belief system, you take it away from the rhetoric, and you cut to the chase. Is this a dangerous, manipulative organization that really cons people or isn't it right?

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

But here's the like, here's the thing I always come up against, I guess, is we talk about what people are, what their goals are in joining these sorts of organizations. And a lot of it's about money. I don't have that bug for money. I wish I, you know, my kid could probably go to a better school if I did, but, like, I just.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

It's not there.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

So. Yeah, I don't know if you can tie all this back to, like, I don't know.

[Diane Benskoder]

I think the desire. We are people on a. Again, on a psychological level, often feel like they're not good enough because oftentimes in society, we are judged by our material what we have. Do we have a nice house? Do we wear nice clothes? Do we have the ability to go on nice vacations? You know, are we wearing the right labels? There's so much that is judged on how much money we have in society. And it is. It is. Part of. It means that you're a better person, really, if you can access wealth in society. And so people who have a hard time seeing a path to wealth are often taken advantage of by someone who's telling them they can get to it through this program. And so it's just really appealing. But there's a cult for you too, Jane. There might be one for self help, or there might be one for religion. There's often any pain that you might have as a person or any longing you might have, or if you go through a hard time in your life. You know, when people go through divorce, when they go through hard times, they sometimes need relief from that, and someone can sell them something at that point. Now, one of the things that I find that is the antidote to that, one of the things that is like a vaccine, is understanding the trickery of psychological manipulation. Once you really get that, then you really. The chances of you being taken advantage of in that way are really slim. Because no one wants to play the fool. No one wants to be the ex cult member or the person that got scammed.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere. Diane's book again is called Shoes of a My Unconditional Devotion to a Lie. Our email is helloitalittle everywhere.com and you can reach us by phone at 323-248-1488. Leave us a tip or just say hi.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Reader)]

See you next.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Naomi Ekparagan and Andy Beckerman]

Hey, everybody, I'm Naomi Ekparagan. And I'm Andy Beckerman. We're a real life couple and a real life couple of comedians. And we're the hosts of the podcast Couples Therapy. We're the only comedy relationship podcast ever. Yeah, I said it. And we're so good. We've been written up in both the New York Times and we made Grindr's list of top podcasts. Yes, we're giving you that high, low appeal trust. On the show, we talk to guests like Bob the Drag Queen, Angelica Ross, Bowen Yang, Janelle James, Danny Pudi, Darcy Carden, Paul F. Tompkins and more. All about love, mental health and everything in between. And we answer your relationship questions. We are two unlicensed comedians just trying to help you out. So open your hearts, loosen your butts, because we got a lot of laughs and a lot of real talk just for you. Download Couples Therapy Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Acast Announcer]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.