W. Kamau Bell

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Dream – W. Kamau Bell

Host: Jane Marie (Little Everywhere)
Guest: W. Kamau Bell
Release Date: September 19, 2025

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Overview

In the first episode of its reimagined interview format, "The Dream" dives deep into the enduring influence of racism on the American Dream. Comedian and documentary creator W. Kamau Bell joins host Jane Marie for a wide-ranging conversation that unflinchingly interrogates historical and ongoing systemic racism in America—touching on identity, wealth, history, the shifting boundaries of public discourse, and the dangers of complacency. The tone is candid and thought-provoking, balancing critical insights with humor and personal anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Podcasting and “Just Chatting”

• Chill, conversational approach: Both Jane and Kamau express a preference for unstructured, genuine dialogue over heavily produced or performative podcasts.
  • Kamau: “This is my favorite form of podcasting.” [01:40]
  • Jane: “Really? Just chatting?”
  • Kamau: “Yeah, chatting. Too many podcasts now are like, okay, before you come on, make a list of your 19 least favorite…”

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2. Racism as America’s Bedrock

• Historical common sense: Jane frames America’s prosperity as built on exploitation and slavery, questioning why acknowledging racism has become controversial in recent years.
  • Jane: “...our economy as like the American dream was built on, let's see, you wouldn't have clothing, cigarettes, food, railroads I could keep. There's a lot of things that made prosperity the brand of America. Right. That were built on slave labor.” [01:59]
• Lack of fundamental change: Both discuss how policy changes (e.g., Civil Rights Act) haven’t addressed root causes, only shifted racism’s forms.

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3. Microaggressions, Presence, and Intersectionality

• Omnipresent microaggressions: Kamau describes constant encounters with racism—often unspoken—which Black people frequently choose not to address for self-preservation.
  • Kamau: “If a Black person who is aware enough of what microaggressions are, if we called him out all the time, we… would never talk about anything else.” [05:06]
• Perpetual self-awareness: He reflects on his physical presence as a large Black man and public figure, navigating intersecting identities and being acutely aware of how he is perceived.
  • “[My] identity is as a Black man, not as a Black person. And as a man, it is a Black man. Like, that is. Those two things cannot be separated. And you could almost say big Black man. Like you could just do like just. Cause there’s, that’s a certain identity.” [08:30]

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4. Racism in News & Politics: The Everyday Headlines

• Racism as motivation: Jane scrolls through the day’s headlines, connecting stories (Harvard/Trump, vaccine mandates, MAGA movement, militarized policing in Black cities) to systemic racism and White supremacy.
  • Kamau: “...the MAGA movement, which is certainly about White supremacy.” [10:40]

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5. Is This Era Different? The Myth of Progress

• Data-drenched disillusionment: Kamau points out that, for the first time, Black Americans could see superficial opportunity (doctors, business owners), but data shows persistent structural limits.
  • On generational wealth: “Black boys who are born into wealth are still going to fall, are likely to fall out of wealth in their lifetime, which is different than White people born into wealth. The wealth accumulates and gets bigger.” [16:48]
  • Environmental racism: “If you give me your zip code, I'll tell you how long you're gonna live.” [17:15]
• No out-earning racism: “You can’t earn your way out of it... the whole system is built on racism, specifically the financial system, so that racism is always going to be taking something from you.” [16:50]
• Illusion of progress: Although famous Black individuals have broken through, this doesn't reflect broader systematic change.
  • “We’ve got LeBron James as a billionaire and Oprah and Jay-Z. But that doesn't mean what we thought it was going to mean.” [18:04]

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6. Silenced Racism to Open Racism: Shifting Public Discourse

• Post-Obama, post-Trump shift: Jane details how racist beliefs once only whispered are now voiced openly. Trump’s presidency is credited with making public racism socially acceptable again.
  • Jane: “I feel like that’s what’s changed is... you could get those people to say [racist slurs] on tape now.” [22:28]
  • Kamau: “[Trump] came down that escalator and said, nope, we can still be racist in public. And so it’s not that certain people became racist when he did that. They were like, finally I can do this out loud again.” [21:10]

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7. The Real Stumbling Block: The White Moderate

• MLK Jr. and the problem of the White moderate: Kamau reads a powerful passage from MLK Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail.
  • Kamau (quoting MLK Jr.):
    “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block... is not the White citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the White moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice... Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” [23:25]
  • Commentary: “This is right now. Nothing has changed from this.”

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8. Why Does It Seem “Cool” to Be Racist Now?

• Metastasizing racism: Kamau argues racism now operates more openly and with less consequence, threatening any sense of linear progress.
  • “I think we all thought America was always in the act of getting better. Ooh. And I think we were wrong.” [27:09]
• Warning for America’s future: Discouraging immigration and brain drain will undermine the country’s innovation and status.
  • “We’re sort of demonizing immigrants... If they all end up in the same place, then that’s the new spot that everybody goes to make their dreams come true. And I don’t know what that spot is, but I know it doesn’t have to be here.” [29:05]

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9. Respectability Politics and “Achieving Out” of Racism

• It doesn't work: Kamau unequivocally rejects the notion that respectability or upward mobility protects Black people from systemic racism.
  • “You cannot achieve your way out of racism... Oprah wasn’t allowed into the fancy store in Paris because they were just like, no Black lady. No, no, no.”
• Ongoing activism: Kamau writes regularly about these issues, striving to be explicit in his positions.
  • “It’s the least I can do is be clear, especially at a time where some people are acting like things are either already back to normal or... this is going to be fine, right?” [32:27]

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10. Personal & Parenting Realities of Racism

• Real-life vigilance: He describes prepping his mixed-race child for potentially fraught interactions at airport security, illustrating how deeply and personally systemic suspicion operates.
  • Kamau: “When we go through security... I’m always like, look, this is the most serious you'll ever see your dad is. When we’re about to walk through airport security, like... we run through all the questions.” [34:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If a black person who is aware enough of what microaggressions are, if we called him out all the time, we... would never talk about anything else.”
  — W. Kamau Bell [05:06]

• “There’s no, 'I've made enough money and now I don’t feel the effects of racism,' because the whole system is built on racism, specifically the financial system, so that racism is always going to be taking something from you.”
  — W. Kamau Bell [16:50]

• “We all thought America was always in the act of getting better. Ooh. And I think we were wrong.”
  — W. Kamau Bell [27:09]

• Quoting MLK Jr.:
  “Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
  — W. Kamau Bell (reading MLK Jr.) [23:25]

• “Oprah wasn’t allowed into the fancy store in Paris because they were just like, no black lady. No, no, no. So for me, the... we've seen over and over again that no matter how successful a black person is, it cannot stop the state from coming after them.”
  — W. Kamau Bell [31:51]

• “I speak Karen through my wife. I have white family members, so I speak Karen.”
  — W. Kamau Bell (humor, on navigating white spaces) [33:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:40] – Kamau’s take on podcasting and being authentic
• [01:59] – Jane frames America’s prosperity and racism
• [05:06] – Kamau on microaggressions and coping
• [08:30] – Identity, intersectionality, and “big Black man”
• [09:39] – Racial bias in the day’s news headlines
• [16:48] – The persistent ceiling on Black mobility
• [21:10] – Trump and the resurgence of explicit public racism
• [23:25] – MLK Jr’s quote on the “White moderate”
• [27:09] – America’s myth of constant progress
• [29:05] – Immigration, innovation, and America’s future
• [31:51] – Debunking respectability politics
• [34:42] – Kamau on preparing his child for airport security

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Conclusion

This wide-ranging, engaging conversation between Jane Marie and W. Kamau Bell is a candid exploration of how racism remains deeply embedded in American life, even as some of its forms become more overtly accepted in public. Cutting across personal narrative, history, and policy, Bell provides a clear-eyed, sometimes sobering, but always accessible analysis—a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand why the American Dream remains so elusive for so many.

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For listeners: This episode cuts through both news noise and historical myth, uncovering the ugly persistence of racism in American life and highlighting the urgency of honest dialogue and action.

Transcript

[Jane Marie]

Hey dream listeners. There's now an ad free version of the Dream that you can subscribe to the Dream Plus@thedream supercast.com Five bucks a month gets you every single episode of this show with zero ads, which you love and I love. And we're hoping that this will help us pay the bills. And the main goal being that we can keep making this show. Go to thedream.supercast.com and subscribe. To Make It Easy, we have put the link in the show description. Just look down underneath this episode. It says thedream.supercast.com and just click on that. Easy peasy. You're gonna get a lot of extra stuff too. We're working on all that. Another thing you need to do. Please subscribe to our Instagram. It's the Dream X. The letter X. Jane Marie. See you over there. Did I talk too much?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Can't I just let it go?

[Jane Marie]

I wish I would stop.

[Sponsor Voice]

I wish.

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[W. Kamau Bell]

This is my favorite form of podcasting.

[Jane Marie]

Really? Just chatting?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, chatting. Too many podcasts now are like, okay, before you come on, make a list of your 19 least favorite. There's too much going on in the world. I can't do that.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so I put out a threads post a couple days ago asking if anyone wants to come on this podcast and talk about how everything is racism. I posted it because I don't feel like that's a controversial opinion. Like I don't. I grew up in a small town in the middle of Michigan, mostly white town, but even I knew like slavery actually happened. That like our economy as like the American dream was built on, let's see, you wouldn't have clothing, cigarettes, food, railroads I could keep. There's a lot of things that made prosperity the brand of America. Right. That were built on slave labor. And the reason that they look really good from the outside, like, everybody's rich. It's like. Cause they don't pay labor. They don't pay for labor. Like, there's no labor costs in anything. So anyway, that seems like common sense to me. And then the fact that I was born a mere 13 years after the Civil Rights Act. Thirteen, like, children were still children, you know, when I was a child who had been alive for that, who had.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Had police stopping them from going into their schools.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah. And been murdered and all kinds of horrible things. And then someone signs a new piece of paper. And there was one, you know, a hundred years prior to that. The fact that that happened once, then it happened with Jim Crow, then we said, okay, we're just gonna keep changing things on paper, but, like, we're not actually ever gonna address the real problem. So I just have that as a basic understanding of what America is. Right. And I keep looking at news or hearing people talk or being part of, like, a public discourse where I'm like, is it new that everyone's changed their mind about that? Is. Why is it controversial all of a sudden? It wasn't even in the Reagan era, I didn't think. I mean, I know the war on drugs was, like, incredibly racist, and there was always racism, but you could say that there was racism. Why? What happened? That's what I want to talk about.

[W. Kamau Bell]

My name is W. Kamau Bell. I am a standup comedian, documentary director, producer, author, writer, dad, and husband, but not in that order.

[Jane Marie]

Big whoop.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. I didn't mention the awards. I didn't mention any of the awards. Oh, celebrity jeopardy. Champion 2025. Okay, now we're.

[Jane Marie]

Apologize in advance if I do any microaggressions or any racism because I am a white person.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, to be quite honest, first of all, I know you, so I have an idea of the range of where you could err. I know you well enough that I could be like, I don't know about that.

[Jane Marie]

Yes. Good.

[W. Kamau Bell]

And also the honest truth is that if a black person who is aware enough of what microaggressions are, if we called him out all the time, we.

[Jane Marie]

Would never talk about anything else.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Psychologically exhausted. Right. It would just be, like I said a long time ago that racist things happen to me all the time that I don't tell anybody about, because it would just be like. My friends would even be like, come on. Not that they wouldn't. Yeah. It would just be like, even just the way that sometimes somebody looks at me, I'm just like, oh, okay. Or the way somebody doesn't look. I mean, so it's. Yeah, so let's go.

[Jane Marie]

Well, but does it. Okay, but here's the question. So you don't have to call it out every time, but does it affect you?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. This happened to me today. I was. I was sitting outside at a coffee shop, which is not a thing. I do that often for various reasons.

[Jane Marie]

Because you're famous.

[W. Kamau Bell]

That's. That is a big part. I mean, I'm also in. In my town, I'm extra famous.

[Jane Marie]

You're recognizable.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Oakland. And yes, that is one of the reasons. I just don't want to sound like that guy. But let's be. Put it on the table. Because I can't just sit and read a book or work on my computer because it's like there is whatever, this luxury problems. But this woman was sitting across from me. Like, we were on the sidewalk and she's on the other side of the sidewalk. And I looked at her and I. And shortly after I looked at her, like, I think I just did like, oh, look at that person over there. She got up and like walked away. And I thought, oh, shit. Did I just like, look like a dude who was staring at. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, like, she just got up and didn't even. Didn't ever look at me, but could have seen me and could have seen me looking at her. And Although I don't believe I did anything to look like a lech, but I understand. So I say I understand this side of it. Just like, I would hope people understand the racism side of it. So I might have, like microaggressed on her in some way without realizing it. And she got up and left and I. And I had that moment of like, did I just. Did I look too long? You know what I mean? Which is entirely too long, as in the eye of the receiver. So I'm not saying that there is, but I certainly. All I say is, like, I'm aware as a man, especially as a 6 foot 4, 200 and blah, blah, blah, pound man, that I have to be aware of my presence in the world as a man, as a black man, and how I'm putting myself out there and also how I'm. And how I am being received.

[Jane Marie]

You know who talks really thoughtfully about that is Dan Gallucci, who's right over there. Plus he has a lot of tattoos, so it's like, like there's you know, there's things that add on top of just being a guy.

[W. Kamau Bell]

And I think most people, I would say most people, you know, aren't aware of all the different slices of them that are, that exist out in the world. And therefore when things happen, they respond like as if it's. They're an individual and not a part of the society's sort of like racial caste system and, and, and the gender hierarchy. And also. Are you short? You know what I mean? There's, there's just all these different things. How do you dress? Do you. Because now I'm. I, I think it was all the time when I was a kid. If you had one tattoo, you were a criminal. Now it's like you might be loaded in tattoos, but what type of tattoos? Yeah, like the, the sort of the fun tattoos or the scary tattoos, you know. You know, there's a, there's soccer moms with full sleeves, but they're like, it's all like, you know, mermaids or something. You know what I mean? I think that like. But I think they're not like Russian.

[Jane Marie]

Prison tattoos on a soccer mom.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Exactly. Yeah, they're not on their face, although we'll get there. But I think that for me, it's like I'm like I was as a kid when I got to be tall, which was like sophomore year of high school, I was aware suddenly I might as well have been a 35 year old man to most people. Like I was over 6ft tall and, and I was aware at some point, like, oh, you know, it's sort of the bare scratching the surface of what Professor Kimberle Crenshaw sort of coined as intersectionality. My identity is as a black man, not as a black person. And as a man, it is a black man. Like, that is. Those two things cannot be separated. And you could almost say big black man. Like you could just do like just. Cause there's, that's a certain identity. And so therefore everywhere I walk through the world, I'm aware. And this is where the fame part comes in. Funny. Like sometimes people will look at me and they'll look in their face. I'm like, is that the look? Cause you are surprised to see a famous person or you surprised to see a big black guy? You have to do some calculus. Most people don't do that because if they did, we would be able to have an easier conversation in this country about race and racism.

[Jane Marie]

Let's talk about that.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Great.

[Jane Marie]

Let me just. As an exercise, I'm gonna open up the front page of the New York Times right now. Okay. First breaking news article on the top of their website right now. Harvard secures a court victory in its fight with Trump. Harvard has sued Trump in an effort to restore billions of research funding. Blah, blah, blah. Right. Most of that's racism. Okay. The second thing is about vaccines. Also, we can talk about medical.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Is that the Florida thing?

[Jane Marie]

Yes.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. Where Ron DeSantis found a black doctor who's an immigrant from Nigeria to wipe out the vaccine mandates in Florida. So he's like, using. This black guy is being used and willingly so to wipe out the vaccine mandates. And so Ron DeSantis gets to, like, point at the black guy. He did it, you know, Then just.

[Jane Marie]

A couple stories later, it's about Laura Loomer, who is on the wrong side of everything.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, well, that's the MAGA movement, which is certainly about white supremacy.

[Jane Marie]

Trump considers sending National Guard to New Orleans.

[W. Kamau Bell]

When he said the list of cities he wanted to send the National Guard to or send. Send troops to, they were. Yeah, they were all cities with black mayors, first of all, even New York and with huge black populations.

[Jane Marie]

Right. And also not the most dangerous cities in America.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Also not the most dangerous cities in America because those are all in red states.

[Jane Marie]

So.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. So again, that's my question. I mean, I mean, it's a dumb question, actually, now that we're talking about it and I'm like, of course we're not talking about reality.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, we're not. And we're being encouraged to get further and further away from reality.

[Jane Marie]

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[Jane Marie]

Is this different? Like, is this time different?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, the thing that is that is different. That different. That, like, if you think about the history of black people in this country, that was the. The generation that we grew up in was the first generation of black people where you actually kind of could become a doctor. It wasn't like you were the only black doctor in the neighborhood anymore. You actually like, oh, no, he went to medical school and you could become a businessman and you could own some things. So it felt like, oh, we're on our way. But then you realize there's a ceiling here. It's still not gonna stop America's white supremacy from, like, if, like, New York times did an article years ago about, specifically about black boys, that black boys who are born into wealth are still going to fall, are likely to fall out of wealth in their lifetime, which is different than white people born into wealth. The wealth accumulates and gets bigger.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

So you can't earn your way out of it. And I think that's the first time we found, like, we found this out is like, there's no sort of like, oh, I've made enough money and now I don't feel the effects of racism because the whole system is built on racism, specifically the financial system. So that racism is always going to be taking something from you. You. And I remember we did an episode of United Shades about environmental racism. And Dr. Robert Bullard, who's the father of environmental racism, credited the study of environmental racism, said, if you give me your zip code, I'll tell you how long you're gonna live. So we're talking about, like, if just being born into a, you know, black people tend to live. There's a thing called lulus, which are low, which are like Land that is bad. Land that is like next to the, that used to be on a landfill or that used to be, that is near a factory or black people tend to, black and brown people tend to live in those part on land that is bad that white people would never live on. You born in a place where you're growing up with asthma and you also, you're black and also you're not going to be, you're not, your life expectancy is going to be lesser. And you also have the economic pull of racism stopping you from like achieving what you can achieve. So I think the idea being that like, this is why I think it's different now because it's like, oh, it's. We're all the data's in.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, there's no, there's no like, well, the next generation will. There's no, like, we've, we've got LeBron James as a billionaire and Oprah and Jay Z. But that doesn't mean what we thought it was going to mean.

[Jane Marie]

When I've argued with like racists in general and especially ones in my family, like the old people who really hate affirmative action and DEI initiatives and all that shit, and I'm like, I don't know why they forget how, how recently there was any sort of moving the needle on like what black people were quote, allowed to do. But why isn't that like, solve it for me, go solve racism, go tell me why, Tell me why all these old white people are so racist they can't even accept reality. Which is.

[W. Kamau Bell]

So here's the way I think about it. And I started thinking about this a few years ago. You know, Martin Luther King Jr. Was born in 1929, which means he could still be alive. He would be 96. That's not the, he's not even making the news on his birthday. I mean, he would because he's Martin Luther King Jr. But they don't go happy birthday to a 96 year old. They don't do that. Like, he's still four years away from the Today show, caring.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Which means, I think, and this is the thing I think is the great question when he was assassinated by white supremacy and by a tool of white supremacy and we were sort of the nation racists were gaslit into thinking, racism ends now. We have killed this man. Racism ends now. And then I grew up thinking somehow the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. S was the end of racism.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, back up there.

[W. Kamau Bell]

That the idea that I was, that his assassination was so tragic that basically.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, you're saying it would affect people.

[W. Kamau Bell]

So much that it was so tragic that we thought it had somehow healed racism and we could get to the colorblind era.

[Jane Marie]

I've never even heard of this before. See, that's how racist I am. Accidentally, I didn't even know that was.

[W. Kamau Bell]

A thing that we thought that, like, you know, he get, you know, like. And remember when he died, he was not popular, but when he died, he becomes like a saint figure. And what. That when he becomes, like, sort of a saint in certain corners of America, what we didn't realize is that his. He didn't. People weren't healed by his death. They just got quiet and they got shamed, and they got quiet for years. And those. And which means there are still people alive right now who hated his fucking guts, and they had to be shamed, and they had to do it behind closed doors. They had to talk about hating his guts. There are people alive right now who boycotted him and young and who are now who are still alive and also raised kids who hated his guts, but they had to be quiet about it. And then Trump came down that escalator and said, nope, we can still be racist in public. And so it's not that certain people became racist when he did that. They were like, finally, finally, I can do this out loud again. And some young people are like, finally, I can do it the way my grandpa did it, right out loud and in public.

[Jane Marie]

So this is what gives me the sense that things are different. Right. And I didn't want to be wrong about that, but I'm okay if I am, you know, But I was like, I think I'm pretty right about this, that this is like a different environment. Because I remember doing reporting ahead of when Obama got elected, and there were lots of stories where one in particular, I went out to Pennsylvania to interview Amish people who were heavily against Obama. No one would say on the record or on my microphone anyway. And I was just like a baby reporter with, like, a tiny microphone, you know? And they wouldn't say that it was about race, but the minute I turned the microphone off, n. Word flying everywhere.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yes. Yeah. Among the Amish. So I. But because I didn't get it on tape, I couldn't make the story. That would be the story. I would. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't tell the story and that. I feel like that's what's changed is you would. You could get those people to say that on tape now.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. No, they. Cause there's no cause the consequences aren't severe anymore. You would. They would like, you know, like the woman who called the little black autistic boy the N word and a playground, like raised money off of it. The thing I've been looking at recently is my favorite Martin Luther King Jr. Quote is this passage from the letter from a Birmingham Jail where he talks about the plague of the white moderate. And I think now we'd call that maybe the white liberal, the white Democrat, the white, sometimes even the white progressive. Of. Because they're like, I'm not maga, therefore I'm okay. And black people are like, you're really not. You're really not okay. Can I read this quote from the Cause? I just think this is like, this is. When I looked it up, I was like, this is the whole thing. So this is from Martin Luther King Jr. S Letter from Birmingham Jail in 1963, like a few months before the March on Washington.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice, who constantly says, I, I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action, who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom, who lives by a mythical concept of time, and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a more convenient season. Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I mean, you basically just said what he said. But that's the thing that when I read this, I'm like, this is right now. This is. Nothing has changed from this. He thought he was talking about a problem to be overcome and we're still living it right now.

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[Jane Marie]

But then I don't want to contradict the premise that I'm proposing here, which is things feel different right now. Right. Like it is the same problem. But why right now is there. Is it so almost cool, you know, to, to be racist?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I think that, I think because so many. Well, I think it is. It is, it is, it is. It does feel different because the problem has metastasized.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, so the problem that he was confronting in his mind, he was like, I'm proposing, here's the problem. And I'm about to do the march on Washington, which hopefully will help address the problem. You know what I mean? Like, he was working for the solution, but I think if he was alive right now, he'd be like, you mean to tell me that you people haven't figured out that thing that I set forth in 1963? You've actually gotten worse. I think people in this country, Trump has allowed people, certain aspects of people to believe, to openly say that white supremacy is their birthright and that racism is justified. I think we all. And this is how I'm starting to feel, which is like, wait, here's the big. Here's the big Funny closer from the comedian. I think we all thought America was always in the act of getting better. Ooh. And I think we were wrong. And I think that means that in. It's very possible and this. And you know, world history supports this. That we look up in 50 years or less and go, man, remember what America was like, cool. In the same way that like, remember the Roman Empire? Remember the British Empire? Remember Genghis Khan when he ran everything? Remember, like, I think that it's very possible that because especially with the fact that we're not. That we're sort of demonizing immigrants, those geniuses who helped define this country that we allowed to come here are just gonna end up somewhere else. And if they all end up in the same place, then that's the new spot that everybody goes to to sort of like make their dreams come true. And I don't know what that sp. But I know that it doesn't have to be here. And that's how you start to change the identity of a nation. Cuz if eventually people start to actually, if immigrants can't show up, if immigrants like, think about this. Trump is kicking out international students who pay full freight to go to the most expensive and elite schools in the country.

[Jane Marie]

And where there's a totally legal visa system.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. No. Where they've done all the right things and the schools want them there and the country wants them there. Cause a lot of those people go, now I'm going to start Google or ebay or like I'm going to start a company because I met people at this elite institution and that's going to be an American company, even though I come from somewhere else because I'm now a citizen here or now I started the company here. And Trump is so anti, you know, immigrants and so we're so racist that he doesn't even want the race, the, he doesn't even want races, other races to come in when they're actually helping his own reputation. Those people will go somewhere else and then we're going to look and be like, wow, it's weird that. That the newest, coolest invention came out of blah, blah, blah, country. And it's weird that another cool invention came out of that same country and another one and another one. And it's weird that America doesn't. Is now importing everything and doesn't manufacture anything and also doesn't even, doesn't even have cool ideas anymore.

[Jane Marie]

Do you get policed on, like how you should be talking and how you should be doing your activism and how you should be entering the space of, like, you know, Is respectability politics a problem for you?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, so I think that, like, by the nature of. Of who I am in the world and even by the nature of, like, how I have. How. How I do my hair or don't do my hair, I'm walking in and be like, I'm going to be me in whatever space I am. And yes, this T shirt says whatever it says. And yes, I'm. And yes, did I comb my hair? No one knows, you know, so I'm, like, very focused on, like, being me in whatever space I'm in and just. And. And owning it in a way that I think age also helps. I think for me, it is so clear that you cannot achieve your way out of racism. And there's so many examples of black people just living their lives and being killed by state power or being unfairly treated that anybody who wants to lean into respectability politics is just not dealing with facts. They're just not. And so for me, I would love. Again, it would be great. And I grew up in that generation where we thought we could. I mean, I remember when people found out that Oprah wasn't let into the Hermes store in Paris, it was like, the end of respectability politics. Oprah, I think that's the best argument. Oprah wasn't allowed into the fancy store in Paris because they were just like, no black lady. No, no, no. So for me, the. I'd be the. We have seen over and over again that no matter how successful a black person is, it cannot stop the state from coming after them when the state wants to. I write on substack once a week now, and every week I'm like, how can I put it? This week, like, and I did it with you.

[Jane Marie]

Like, it's the same goddamn thing every week.

[W. Kamau Bell]

The same. Yeah, what. What's the angle? So I think that, like, I think. I think part of the thing I'm doing right now is to be like, I just want to be so clear about where I stand on these things so that you can know. So that, you know, my subject's called who's with me? Are you with me on this? If you're not, that's fine. But I. It's. The least I can do is be clear, especially at a time where some people are acting like things are either already back to normal or. Or they're going to go back to normal or this is going to be fine, right? And I'm like, for. And I'm like, for three weeks In a row, I've been writing about how they're current. The. The Washington, D.C. is being illegally invaded. It's been. Been illegally invaded by the United States government. Anyway, I saw this new movie and, you know, just like, it's not going to. It's not going to leave my list of things to talk about.

[Jane Marie]

Right?

[W. Kamau Bell]

It's not going to because it's too dangerous. It's too dangerous.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I love talking to you, and I want to do it again soon.

[W. Kamau Bell]

All right, let's do it.

[Jane Marie]

Hit me up.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I'll be having this conversation as soon as we get off. I'll still be having this conversation, so I'm happy to. I speak Karen through my wife. I have white family members, so I speak Karen.

[Jane Marie]

I think you also speak it from your what would you do? Experience. Right?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What would you do? I don't think it was like a fever dream. I think it's so funny that I got to do that.

[Jane Marie]

It's so weird. But that's like.

[W. Kamau Bell]

It's just.

[Jane Marie]

It should have just been called, like, how would you handle a Karen?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, and they also just put me in all the racism situations. Like, don't I get any fun one about like, somebody found $5. These are all the racism ones. But they're not going to let me do what I would normally do. And really, I have to. Somebody helped a lost kid? Nope. I'm in. Like, what would you do in the middle of this racism? When I'm at the airport with my. Especially my middle kid, who's very. You've met. Who's very, very complected. When we go through security, if it's just the two of us, I'm like, look, I know we like to joke around. Now's not the time. So. So when they say. When they say, what's your name? Who is he to you? Yeah, I know that thing. I was like. So I was like, I'm. I'm always like, look, this is. This is the most serious you'll ever see your dad is. When we're about to walk through airport security, like. Like we run through all the questions. When's your birthday? How old are you? What's your middle name? Yeah, I pre. I do a pretest.

[Jane Marie]

That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-4814-8832-3248, 1488. And please subscribe to our premium channel. It's $5. It's the Dream. Plus it's at thedream.supercast.com all episodes ad free. Cancel next weekend and just rip through the whole thing. Look below this episode. Look in the description. There's a link. You can just tap it and go subscribe and then I'll see you in there. Love you. Bye.

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[Jane Marie]

Sure thing.

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[W. Kamau Bell]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Vanessa Zoltan or Hannah McGregor]

We're reconsidering everything right now. What is time post Covid? What is truth in Trump's America? Is you've got mail secretly a movie about a creepy gaslighting stalker? We can't answer the first two questions, but we have opinions about the third. We on Hot and Bothered are revisiting romance movies of the past and asking what were these movies teaching us? What did we not even realize they were teaching us? Hot and Bothered is me, Vanessa Zoltan, a pop culture critic and nice lady with opinions, and Hannah McGregor, a bonafide professor of media studies. Loving love stories and also just a little bit concerned. Come listen to Hot and Bothered.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

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[Jane Marie]

Hey dream listeners. It's finally here. The dream plus where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads. It's $5 a month. It's the only tier. No commercials plus bonus content. This helps keep us independent and your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the dream. We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show, which is annoying to both you and us. We're also going to have an amazing discussion board. The interface has it cataloged under ama Ask me anything, but I don't love rules. So what I did is started a bunch of threads like Ask Dan and I Questions, general chit chat just to make friends and stuff. And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shopping and it's there and we're just going to talk about what we bought. It'll be fun. That's the dream s U P E R C A S T com Supercast. Please, please go. Subscribe. It's five bucks. It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles. See you there.