W. Kamau Bell (3:20)

Had police stopping them from going into their schools.

Jane Marie (3:23)

Yeah, yeah. And been murdered and all kinds of horrible things. And then someone signs a new piece of paper. And there was one, you know, a hundred years prior to that. The fact that that happened once, then it happened with Jim Crow, then we said, okay, we're just gonna keep changing things on paper, but, like, we're not actually ever gonna address the real problem. So I just have that as a basic understanding of what America is. Right. And I keep looking at news or hearing people talk or being part of, like, a public discourse where I'm like, is it new that everyone's changed their mind about that? Is. Why is it controversial all of a sudden? It wasn't even in the Reagan era, I didn't think. I mean, I know the war on drugs was, like, incredibly racist, and there was always racism, but you could say that there was racism. Why? What happened? That's what I want to talk about.

W. Kamau Bell (4:25)

My name is W. Kamau Bell. I am a standup comedian, documentary director, producer, author, writer, dad, and husband, but not in that order.

Jane Marie (4:37)

Big whoop.

W. Kamau Bell (4:38)

Yeah. I didn't mention the awards. I didn't mention any of the awards. Oh, celebrity jeopardy. Champion 2025. Okay, now we're.

Jane Marie (4:47)

Apologize in advance if I do any microaggressions or any racism because I am a white person.

W. Kamau Bell (4:55)

I mean, to be quite honest, first of all, I know you, so I have an idea of the range of where you could err. I know you well enough that I could be like, I don't know about that.

Jane Marie (5:04)

Yes. Good.

W. Kamau Bell (5:06)

And also the honest truth is that if a black person who is aware enough of what microaggressions are, if we called him out all the time, we.

Jane Marie (5:16)

Would never talk about anything else.

W. Kamau Bell (5:18)

Psychologically exhausted. Right. It would just be, like I said a long time ago that racist things happen to me all the time that I don't tell anybody about, because it would just be like. My friends would even be like, come on. Not that they wouldn't. Yeah. It would just be like, even just the way that sometimes somebody looks at me, I'm just like, oh, okay. Or the way somebody doesn't look. I mean, so it's. Yeah, so let's go.

Jane Marie (5:45)

Well, but does it. Okay, but here's the question. So you don't have to call it out every time, but does it affect you?

W. Kamau Bell (5:50)

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. This happened to me today. I was. I was sitting outside at a coffee shop, which is not a thing. I do that often for various reasons.

Jane Marie (5:58)

Because you're famous.

W. Kamau Bell (5:59)

That's. That is a big part. I mean, I'm also in. In my town, I'm extra famous.

Jane Marie (6:03)

You're recognizable.

W. Kamau Bell (6:03)

Oakland. And yes, that is one of the reasons. I just don't want to sound like that guy. But let's be. Put it on the table. Because I can't just sit and read a book or work on my computer because it's like there is whatever, this luxury problems. But this woman was sitting across from me. Like, we were on the sidewalk and she's on the other side of the sidewalk. And I looked at her and I. And shortly after I looked at her, like, I think I just did like, oh, look at that person over there. She got up and like walked away. And I thought, oh, shit. Did I just like, look like a dude who was staring at. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, like, she just got up and didn't even. Didn't ever look at me, but could have seen me and could have seen me looking at her. And Although I don't believe I did anything to look like a lech, but I understand. So I say I understand this side of it. Just like, I would hope people understand the racism side of it. So I might have, like microaggressed on her in some way without realizing it. And she got up and left and I. And I had that moment of like, did I just. Did I look too long? You know what I mean? Which is entirely too long, as in the eye of the receiver. So I'm not saying that there is, but I certainly. All I say is, like, I'm aware as a man, especially as a 6 foot 4, 200 and blah, blah, blah, pound man, that I have to be aware of my presence in the world as a man, as a black man, and how I'm putting myself out there and also how I'm. And how I am being received.

Jane Marie (7:25)

You know who talks really thoughtfully about that is Dan Gallucci, who's right over there. Plus he has a lot of tattoos, so it's like, like there's you know, there's things that add on top of just being a guy.

W. Kamau Bell (7:35)

And I think most people, I would say most people, you know, aren't aware of all the different slices of them that are, that exist out in the world. And therefore when things happen, they respond like as if it's. They're an individual and not a part of the society's sort of like racial caste system and, and, and the gender hierarchy. And also. Are you short? You know what I mean? There's, there's just all these different things. How do you dress? Do you. Because now I'm. I, I think it was all the time when I was a kid. If you had one tattoo, you were a criminal. Now it's like you might be loaded in tattoos, but what type of tattoos? Yeah, like the, the sort of the fun tattoos or the scary tattoos, you know. You know, there's a, there's soccer moms with full sleeves, but they're like, it's all like, you know, mermaids or something. You know what I mean? I think that like. But I think they're not like Russian.

Jane Marie (8:28)

Prison tattoos on a soccer mom.

W. Kamau Bell (8:30)

Exactly. Yeah, they're not on their face, although we'll get there. But I think that for me, it's like I'm like I was as a kid when I got to be tall, which was like sophomore year of high school, I was aware suddenly I might as well have been a 35 year old man to most people. Like I was over 6ft tall and, and I was aware at some point, like, oh, you know, it's sort of the bare scratching the surface of what Professor Kimberle Crenshaw sort of coined as intersectionality. My identity is as a black man, not as a black person. And as a man, it is a black man. Like, that is. Those two things cannot be separated. And you could almost say big black man. Like you could just do like just. Cause there's, that's a certain identity. And so therefore everywhere I walk through the world, I'm aware. And this is where the fame part comes in. Funny. Like sometimes people will look at me and they'll look in their face. I'm like, is that the look? Cause you are surprised to see a famous person or you surprised to see a big black guy? You have to do some calculus. Most people don't do that because if they did, we would be able to have an easier conversation in this country about race and racism.

Jane Marie (9:38)

Let's talk about that.

W. Kamau Bell (9:39)

Great.

Jane Marie (9:41)

Let me just. As an exercise, I'm gonna open up the front page of the New York Times right now. Okay. First breaking news article on the top of their website right now. Harvard secures a court victory in its fight with Trump. Harvard has sued Trump in an effort to restore billions of research funding. Blah, blah, blah. Right. Most of that's racism. Okay. The second thing is about vaccines. Also, we can talk about medical.

W. Kamau Bell (10:08)

Is that the Florida thing?

Jane Marie (10:09)

Yes.

W. Kamau Bell (10:10)

Yeah. Where Ron DeSantis found a black doctor who's an immigrant from Nigeria to wipe out the vaccine mandates in Florida. So he's like, using. This black guy is being used and willingly so to wipe out the vaccine mandates. And so Ron DeSantis gets to, like, point at the black guy. He did it, you know, Then just.

Jane Marie (10:34)

A couple stories later, it's about Laura Loomer, who is on the wrong side of everything.

W. Kamau Bell (10:40)

Yeah, well, that's the MAGA movement, which is certainly about white supremacy.

Jane Marie (10:44)

Trump considers sending National Guard to New Orleans.

W. Kamau Bell (10:47)

When he said the list of cities he wanted to send the National Guard to or send. Send troops to, they were. Yeah, they were all cities with black mayors, first of all, even New York and with huge black populations.

Jane Marie (10:58)

Right. And also not the most dangerous cities in America.

W. Kamau Bell (11:01)

Also not the most dangerous cities in America because those are all in red states.

Jane Marie (11:05)

So.

W. Kamau Bell (11:05)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (11:06)

Yeah. So again, that's my question. I mean, I mean, it's a dumb question, actually, now that we're talking about it and I'm like, of course we're not talking about reality.

W. Kamau Bell (11:14)

Yeah, we're not. And we're being encouraged to get further and further away from reality.

Jane Marie (11:26)

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Jane Marie (15:55)

Is this different? Like, is this time different?

W. Kamau Bell (16:00)

Yeah, the thing that is that is different. That different. That, like, if you think about the history of black people in this country, that was the. The generation that we grew up in was the first generation of black people where you actually kind of could become a doctor. It wasn't like you were the only black doctor in the neighborhood anymore. You actually like, oh, no, he went to medical school and you could become a businessman and you could own some things. So it felt like, oh, we're on our way. But then you realize there's a ceiling here. It's still not gonna stop America's white supremacy from, like, if, like, New York times did an article years ago about, specifically about black boys, that black boys who are born into wealth are still going to fall, are likely to fall out of wealth in their lifetime, which is different than white people born into wealth. The wealth accumulates and gets bigger.

Jane Marie (16:50)

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell (16:50)

So you can't earn your way out of it. And I think that's the first time we found, like, we found this out is like, there's no sort of like, oh, I've made enough money and now I don't feel the effects of racism because the whole system is built on racism, specifically the financial system. So that racism is always going to be taking something from you. You. And I remember we did an episode of United Shades about environmental racism. And Dr. Robert Bullard, who's the father of environmental racism, credited the study of environmental racism, said, if you give me your zip code, I'll tell you how long you're gonna live. So we're talking about, like, if just being born into a, you know, black people tend to live. There's a thing called lulus, which are low, which are like Land that is bad. Land that is like next to the, that used to be on a landfill or that used to be, that is near a factory or black people tend to, black and brown people tend to live in those part on land that is bad that white people would never live on. You born in a place where you're growing up with asthma and you also, you're black and also you're not going to be, you're not, your life expectancy is going to be lesser. And you also have the economic pull of racism stopping you from like achieving what you can achieve. So I think the idea being that like, this is why I think it's different now because it's like, oh, it's. We're all the data's in.

Jane Marie (18:03)

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell (18:04)

Like, there's no, there's no like, well, the next generation will. There's no, like, we've, we've got LeBron James as a billionaire and Oprah and Jay Z. But that doesn't mean what we thought it was going to mean.

Jane Marie (18:15)

When I've argued with like racists in general and especially ones in my family, like the old people who really hate affirmative action and DEI initiatives and all that shit, and I'm like, I don't know why they forget how, how recently there was any sort of moving the needle on like what black people were quote, allowed to do. But why isn't that like, solve it for me, go solve racism, go tell me why, Tell me why all these old white people are so racist they can't even accept reality. Which is.

W. Kamau Bell (18:52)

So here's the way I think about it. And I started thinking about this a few years ago. You know, Martin Luther King Jr. Was born in 1929, which means he could still be alive. He would be 96. That's not the, he's not even making the news on his birthday. I mean, he would because he's Martin Luther King Jr. But they don't go happy birthday to a 96 year old. They don't do that. Like, he's still four years away from the Today show, caring.

Jane Marie (19:16)

Right.

W. Kamau Bell (19:18)

Which means, I think, and this is the thing I think is the great question when he was assassinated by white supremacy and by a tool of white supremacy and we were sort of the nation racists were gaslit into thinking, racism ends now. We have killed this man. Racism ends now. And then I grew up thinking somehow the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. S was the end of racism.

Jane Marie (19:43)

Wait, back up there.

W. Kamau Bell (19:45)

That the idea that I was, that his assassination was so tragic that basically.

Jane Marie (19:52)

Oh, you're saying it would affect people.

W. Kamau Bell (19:54)

So much that it was so tragic that we thought it had somehow healed racism and we could get to the colorblind era.

Jane Marie (20:03)

I've never even heard of this before. See, that's how racist I am. Accidentally, I didn't even know that was.

W. Kamau Bell (20:08)

A thing that we thought that, like, you know, he get, you know, like. And remember when he died, he was not popular, but when he died, he becomes like a saint figure. And what. That when he becomes, like, sort of a saint in certain corners of America, what we didn't realize is that his. He didn't. People weren't healed by his death. They just got quiet and they got shamed, and they got quiet for years. And those. And which means there are still people alive right now who hated his fucking guts, and they had to be shamed, and they had to do it behind closed doors. They had to talk about hating his guts. There are people alive right now who boycotted him and young and who are now who are still alive and also raised kids who hated his guts, but they had to be quiet about it. And then Trump came down that escalator and said, nope, we can still be racist in public. And so it's not that certain people became racist when he did that. They were like, finally, finally, I can do this out loud again. And some young people are like, finally, I can do it the way my grandpa did it, right out loud and in public.

Jane Marie (21:22)

So this is what gives me the sense that things are different. Right. And I didn't want to be wrong about that, but I'm okay if I am, you know, But I was like, I think I'm pretty right about this, that this is like a different environment. Because I remember doing reporting ahead of when Obama got elected, and there were lots of stories where one in particular, I went out to Pennsylvania to interview Amish people who were heavily against Obama. No one would say on the record or on my microphone anyway. And I was just like a baby reporter with, like, a tiny microphone, you know? And they wouldn't say that it was about race, but the minute I turned the microphone off, n. Word flying everywhere.

W. Kamau Bell (22:06)

Yeah.

Jane Marie (22:08)

Yes. Yeah. Among the Amish. So I. But because I didn't get it on tape, I couldn't make the story. That would be the story. I would. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't tell the story and that. I feel like that's what's changed is you would. You could get those people to say that on tape now.

W. Kamau Bell (22:28)

Yeah. No, they. Cause there's no cause the consequences aren't severe anymore. You would. They would like, you know, like the woman who called the little black autistic boy the N word and a playground, like raised money off of it. The thing I've been looking at recently is my favorite Martin Luther King Jr. Quote is this passage from the letter from a Birmingham Jail where he talks about the plague of the white moderate. And I think now we'd call that maybe the white liberal, the white Democrat, the white, sometimes even the white progressive. Of. Because they're like, I'm not maga, therefore I'm okay. And black people are like, you're really not. You're really not okay. Can I read this quote from the Cause? I just think this is like, this is. When I looked it up, I was like, this is the whole thing. So this is from Martin Luther King Jr. S Letter from Birmingham Jail in 1963, like a few months before the March on Washington.

Jane Marie (23:24)

Okay.

W. Kamau Bell (23:25)

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice, who constantly says, I, I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action, who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom, who lives by a mythical concept of time, and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a more convenient season. Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I mean, you basically just said what he said. But that's the thing that when I read this, I'm like, this is right now. This is. Nothing has changed from this. He thought he was talking about a problem to be overcome and we're still living it right now.

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Jane Marie (26:39)

But then I don't want to contradict the premise that I'm proposing here, which is things feel different right now. Right. Like it is the same problem. But why right now is there. Is it so almost cool, you know, to, to be racist?

W. Kamau Bell (26:57)

I think that, I think because so many. Well, I think it is. It is, it is, it is. It does feel different because the problem has metastasized.

Jane Marie (27:07)

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell (27:09)

Like, so the problem that he was confronting in his mind, he was like, I'm proposing, here's the problem. And I'm about to do the march on Washington, which hopefully will help address the problem. You know what I mean? Like, he was working for the solution, but I think if he was alive right now, he'd be like, you mean to tell me that you people haven't figured out that thing that I set forth in 1963? You've actually gotten worse. I think people in this country, Trump has allowed people, certain aspects of people to believe, to openly say that white supremacy is their birthright and that racism is justified. I think we all. And this is how I'm starting to feel, which is like, wait, here's the big. Here's the big Funny closer from the comedian. I think we all thought America was always in the act of getting better. Ooh. And I think we were wrong. And I think that means that in. It's very possible and this. And you know, world history supports this. That we look up in 50 years or less and go, man, remember what America was like, cool. In the same way that like, remember the Roman Empire? Remember the British Empire? Remember Genghis Khan when he ran everything? Remember, like, I think that it's very possible that because especially with the fact that we're not. That we're sort of demonizing immigrants, those geniuses who helped define this country that we allowed to come here are just gonna end up somewhere else. And if they all end up in the same place, then that's the new spot that everybody goes to to sort of like make their dreams come true. And I don't know what that sp. But I know that it doesn't have to be here. And that's how you start to change the identity of a nation. Cuz if eventually people start to actually, if immigrants can't show up, if immigrants like, think about this. Trump is kicking out international students who pay full freight to go to the most expensive and elite schools in the country.

Jane Marie (29:05)

And where there's a totally legal visa system.

W. Kamau Bell (29:10)

Yeah. No. Where they've done all the right things and the schools want them there and the country wants them there. Cause a lot of those people go, now I'm going to start Google or ebay or like I'm going to start a company because I met people at this elite institution and that's going to be an American company, even though I come from somewhere else because I'm now a citizen here or now I started the company here. And Trump is so anti, you know, immigrants and so we're so racist that he doesn't even want the race, the, he doesn't even want races, other races to come in when they're actually helping his own reputation. Those people will go somewhere else and then we're going to look and be like, wow, it's weird that. That the newest, coolest invention came out of blah, blah, blah, country. And it's weird that another cool invention came out of that same country and another one and another one. And it's weird that America doesn't. Is now importing everything and doesn't manufacture anything and also doesn't even, doesn't even have cool ideas anymore.

Jane Marie (30:18)

Do you get policed on, like how you should be talking and how you should be doing your activism and how you should be entering the space of, like, you know, Is respectability politics a problem for you?

W. Kamau Bell (30:31)

I mean, so I think that, like, by the nature of. Of who I am in the world and even by the nature of, like, how I have. How. How I do my hair or don't do my hair, I'm walking in and be like, I'm going to be me in whatever space I am. And yes, this T shirt says whatever it says. And yes, I'm. And yes, did I comb my hair? No one knows, you know, so I'm, like, very focused on, like, being me in whatever space I'm in and just. And. And owning it in a way that I think age also helps. I think for me, it is so clear that you cannot achieve your way out of racism. And there's so many examples of black people just living their lives and being killed by state power or being unfairly treated that anybody who wants to lean into respectability politics is just not dealing with facts. They're just not. And so for me, I would love. Again, it would be great. And I grew up in that generation where we thought we could. I mean, I remember when people found out that Oprah wasn't let into the Hermes store in Paris, it was like, the end of respectability politics. Oprah, I think that's the best argument. Oprah wasn't allowed into the fancy store in Paris because they were just like, no black lady. No, no, no. So for me, the. I'd be the. We have seen over and over again that no matter how successful a black person is, it cannot stop the state from coming after them when the state wants to. I write on substack once a week now, and every week I'm like, how can I put it? This week, like, and I did it with you.

Jane Marie (32:24)

Like, it's the same goddamn thing every week.

W. Kamau Bell (32:27)

The same. Yeah, what. What's the angle? So I think that, like, I think. I think part of the thing I'm doing right now is to be like, I just want to be so clear about where I stand on these things so that you can know. So that, you know, my subject's called who's with me? Are you with me on this? If you're not, that's fine. But I. It's. The least I can do is be clear, especially at a time where some people are acting like things are either already back to normal or. Or they're going to go back to normal or this is going to be fine, right? And I'm like, for. And I'm like, for three weeks In a row, I've been writing about how they're current. The. The Washington, D.C. is being illegally invaded. It's been. Been illegally invaded by the United States government. Anyway, I saw this new movie and, you know, just like, it's not going to. It's not going to leave my list of things to talk about.

Jane Marie (33:16)

Right?

W. Kamau Bell (33:16)

It's not going to because it's too dangerous. It's too dangerous.

Jane Marie (33:21)

Well, I love talking to you, and I want to do it again soon.

W. Kamau Bell (33:24)

All right, let's do it.

Jane Marie (33:25)

Hit me up.

W. Kamau Bell (33:27)

I'll be having this conversation as soon as we get off. I'll still be having this conversation, so I'm happy to. I speak Karen through my wife. I have white family members, so I speak Karen.

Jane Marie (33:40)

I think you also speak it from your what would you do? Experience. Right?

W. Kamau Bell (33:44)

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What would you do? I don't think it was like a fever dream. I think it's so funny that I got to do that.

Jane Marie (33:51)

It's so weird. But that's like.

W. Kamau Bell (33:52)

It's just.

Jane Marie (33:53)

It should have just been called, like, how would you handle a Karen?

W. Kamau Bell (33:56)

Yeah, and they also just put me in all the racism situations. Like, don't I get any fun one about like, somebody found $5. These are all the racism ones. But they're not going to let me do what I would normally do. And really, I have to. Somebody helped a lost kid? Nope. I'm in. Like, what would you do in the middle of this racism? When I'm at the airport with my. Especially my middle kid, who's very. You've met. Who's very, very complected. When we go through security, if it's just the two of us, I'm like, look, I know we like to joke around. Now's not the time. So. So when they say. When they say, what's your name? Who is he to you? Yeah, I know that thing. I was like. So I was like, I'm. I'm always like, look, this is. This is the most serious you'll ever see your dad is. When we're about to walk through airport security, like. Like we run through all the questions. When's your birthday? How old are you? What's your middle name? Yeah, I pre. I do a pretest.

Jane Marie (34:59)

That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-4814-8832-3248, 1488. And please subscribe to our premium channel. It's $5. It's the Dream. Plus it's at thedream.supercast.com all episodes ad free. Cancel next weekend and just rip through the whole thing. Look below this episode. Look in the description. There's a link. You can just tap it and go subscribe and then I'll see you in there. Love you. Bye.

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Jane Marie (37:25)

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