Which Lords Work?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream – "Which Lords Work?"

Release Date: July 26, 2025
Hosted by: Little Everywhere

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Which Lords Work?", host Jane Marie engages in an in-depth conversation with guest Julie Jo (JJ), a prominent critic of multi-level marketing (MLM) schemes and advocate against cult-like organizations. The discussion delves into Julie's personal experiences within MLMs, her unraveling of conspiracy theories intertwined with these networks, and her journey towards mental well-being and content creation on YouTube.

---

Guest Introduction and Backstory (00:00 - 07:00)

The episode begins with Jane Marie introducing Julie Jo, who is known for her insightful YouTube videos dissecting MLMs and cults. Julie's day job as an ultrasound technician contrasts sharply with her passion for exposing the darker sides of MLMs.

Key Points:

• MLM Involvement: Julie recounts her entry into MLMs, starting with brands like Mary Kay and Herbalife during her high school years in Texas.
• Personal Motivation: Financial necessity post-marriage led her to join Arbonne, where she achieved significant milestones, qualifying for the top two percent as a Regional Vice President.
• Realization of Exploitation: Achieving this status unveiled the manipulative leadership and pervasive conspiracy theories within the MLM structure, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Notable Quote:

"I had to live this life constantly, managing anxiety over every aspect of my personal and professional existence to maintain my status," – Julie Jo (JJ) [07:05]

---

Exposure to Conspiracy Theories (07:00 - 16:00)

Julie delves deeper into the conspiracy theories prevalent within Arbonne, highlighting the group's fixation on unfounded claims like the "Save Our Children" and "Wayfair" conspiracies.

Key Points:

• "Save Our Children" Conspiracy: A belief that children were being trafficked through Wayfair shipping containers, a baseless theory that gained traction within the MLM community.
• Leadership Influence: Cecilia Stoll, a top earner in Arbonne, propagated these conspiracies, exacerbating discomfort and distrust among members.
• Community Manipulation: The MLM's leadership discouraged critical thinking, labeling unsuccessful members as lazy, thereby fostering a toxic environment.

Notable Quote:

"Once you fall down the conspiracy pipe, it's just a downhill journey," – Julie Jo (JJ) [09:32]

---

Financial and Emotional Toll of MLMs (16:00 - 24:00)

Julie discusses the financial strain and emotional exhaustion resulting from her involvement in MLMs, emphasizing the disparity between her earnings and expenditures.

Key Points:

• Financial Discrepancy: Despite qualifying for high ranks, Julie's actual earnings were minimal compared to her expenses, leading to significant financial loss.
• Time Investment: The relentless demands of MLM participation left her socially and mentally drained, contributing to severe burnout.
• Mental Health Decline: The pressure and constant anxiety led Julie to seek psychiatric help, highlighting the profound mental health impacts of MLM involvement.

Notable Quote:

"My mental health declined significantly after hitting the forty thousand mark. It didn’t change anything for the better," – Julie Jo (JJ) [21:36]

---

Transition to Advocacy and Content Creation (24:00 - 35:00)

Faced with burnout and disillusionment, Julie transitioned from MLM participation to content creation, leveraging YouTube to advocate against MLMs and similar exploitative structures.

Key Points:

• YouTube Success: Building a YouTube channel over four years, Julie now earns enough to cover her rent, marking a significant shift from her MLM earnings.
• Support System: A robust support network was crucial in helping Julie recover and pursue her new path.
• Content Focus: Her videos critically examine MLM practices, exposing fraudulent schemes and advocating for mental health awareness.

Notable Quote:

"I am very grateful that my YouTube income allows me to pay my rent without the stress of MLM financial burdens," – Julie Jo (JJ) [25:16]

---

Analysis of MLM Influencers and Conspiracy Theory Pipeline (35:00 - 44:00)

Julie expands her critique to other MLM influencers who have fallen into similar traps of conspiracy theories and exploitative practices.

Key Points:

• Case Studies: Discussion of figures like Brittany Dawn, Tony Van Schoick, and Lara Lightner, who transitioned from MLM leaders to promoters of extremist ideologies.
• Conspiracy Theory Integration: These influencers often incorporate QAnon and Christian nationalism into their narratives, further entrenching followers in harmful belief systems.
• Accountability Issues: Many of these figures evade accountability, using religious rhetoric to deflect criticism and validate their positions.

Notable Quote:

"Once you enter these cult-like MLM environments, it becomes easier to spiral into extremist conspiracy theories," – Julie Jo (JJ) [39:18]

---

Impact of Religion and Racism on MLM Dynamics (44:00 - 50:00)

The conversation shifts to the role of Christianity and racism in the perpetuation and manipulation within MLMs.

Key Points:

• Christian Nationalism: The fusion of MLM practices with Christian nationalist ideologies creates a potent mix that fosters loyalty and suppresses dissent.
• Racism: MLMs often target marginalized communities, exploiting immigrants and people of color by offering them financial opportunities in exchange for loyalty and participation.
• Deconstruction of Faith: Julie shares her personal journey of losing her religious faith due to the toxic intersection of MLMs and extremist ideologies.

Notable Quote:

"MLMs exploit religious and racial vulnerabilities, making it easier to manipulate and control diverse communities," – Julie Jo (JJ) [39:41]

---

Conclusion and Final Thoughts (50:00 - End)

As the episode wraps up, Julie emphasizes the importance of community support and personal accountability in overcoming the traps set by MLMs and similar organizations.

Key Points:

• Community Building: Establishing supportive networks is essential for individuals to recover and resist manipulative structures.
• Advocacy for Mental Health: Open discussions about mental health struggles are crucial in breaking the stigma and providing paths to recovery.
• Personal Responsibility: Julie encourages listeners to critically evaluate their professional and personal engagements, advocating for proactive career and life choices.

Notable Quote:

"Leaving MLMs and confronting these systems was a pivotal moment for my mental well-being and personal growth," – Julie Jo (JJ) [45:15]

---

Key Takeaways

• MLMs are not just business models but can become cult-like environments that manipulate members psychologically and financially.
• Conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies often intertwine with MLM practices, creating a toxic feedback loop that is hard to escape.
• Mental health is a significant concern for individuals involved in MLMs, necessitating supportive networks and professional help.
• Transitioning away from MLMs to advocacy and content creation can offer a path to financial stability and personal fulfillment.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Host]

It'S time to come clean with yourself let's be completely honest are you happy with your job like really happy the unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place but still we stick it out and we give reasons like what if the next move is even worse i've already put years into this place i can't afford to take a wrong step and maybe the most common one isn't everyone kind of miserable at work but but there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving it's time to get unstuck it's time for strawberry me they match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be your coach helps you get clear on your goals create a plan build your confidence and keeps you accountable along the way so don't leave your career to chance take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner go to strawberry me career to claim a special offer that's strawberry me career hello listeners meet lisa hey there lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion with acast she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers yep i recorded a.

[Jane Marie]

Quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using acast's audience attributes targeting.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Feature and set my budget before i knew it people all over were hearing about my shop now that's a smart.

[Host]

Way to grow your business hey lisa.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

What'S trending right now shopping sustainably and.

[Host]

My sales of course start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with acast visit go acast dot com advertise to get started.

[Jane Marie]

I'M jane marie and this is the dream we are so lucky to have been around long enough as a show to know all the major players in the anti mlm anti cult universe i can't even believe those are things that need an anti qualifier in front of them but whatever our next guest makes really great youtube videos about both of those movements in her very very spare time by day she is an ultrasound technician looking inside of us to see if anything's wrong and she tries to fix it keep that in as we talk.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

My name is julie called julie jo or jj on social media and i wow i feel like the past four years have gone by slowly and quickly all at the same time i've been doing content over mostly multi level marketing and have dipped into religious cults a bit my experience in multi level marketing has brought me to where i am today with anti multilevel marketing content just talking about the ups and downs of it mostly the downs and i have started to focus more a little bit as well in the cult territory not just religious but overall just i think what all encompasses what i do would be people doing bad things that they don't need to do.

[Jane Marie]

Samesies can you talk to me like just tell me your backstory how you got involved in multi level marketing and how what what made you enter this entire world of of the advocacy that.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

You do yeah so i grew up in a small town in texas and i grew up where multi level marketing was not seen as a bad thing in fact a lot of people in my small town did it i was invited to a mary kay party when i was in high school i used herbalife in high school one of my good friends became like a vector marketing knife seller and i just never saw it as something that was bad or predatory i was also really young but when i graduated well i was finishing the last semester of my master's degree in theology and ministry so i was really religious when i was finishing up my last semester of that i just got married and was short on cash and i had a friend that i knew that i went to camp with for a few summers and they were selling arbonne and they wanted to talk to me about it and i was like oh that'd be wonderful to talk to them and also catch up so we got on the phone and i was like yeah that sounds great make a little bit more money use products that you use that i watched use sounds like a good idea so i did that and ended up i would say being mildly successful i qualify for the top two percent in arbonne there's four levels qualifying for the top two percent is like qualifying for the third of four so it's regional vice president and then the top one is national vice president weird names i know and so i had qualified didn't mean that i actually hit that level it means that i hit the number you need to keep that level once you actually hit it so you can do it in one month one month two months or three months and you need to hit if i remember correctly it was like forty thousand your first month to actually qualify and then your second month i think it's like fifty two thousand to become a regional vice president and then if you don't if you don't do that you have a third month to hit it but it goes up so i'd hit that forty and after that i feel like once i hit the forty it was you know when you like train for something and you work so hard and then you hit it and you realize that you are just done you're at your wits end you're burned out you put in so much effort and i was just completely done and i also got let in once i qualified you kind of see behind the curtain a bit you see more of the leadership groups and talk to more of the leadership in the company and once i saw behind the curtain i was not thrilled i was pretty uncomfortable it is definitely a conspiracy theory madness back there it was very uncomfortable very uncomfortable especially during COVID you know it was i think april so right when everything was just exploding april of twenty twenty so i saw behind the curtain and was even more uncomfortable i was already exhausted from it what.

[Jane Marie]

Specifically like you said you see the conspiracy various things like that can you talk more specifically about that yeah so.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Cecilia stoll is the top income earner in arbonne and something she was really passionate about was the save our children oh boy conspiracy theory yeah yeah like the wayfarer situation and everything okay for.

[Jane Marie]

Our listeners sorry i'm laughing i just.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Have to it's in a while i'm.

[Jane Marie]

Sorry okay this is like qanon adjacent pizzagate stuff right oh yeah okay so yeah let's just so she's the top earner or is she the boss of.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Arbonne the top earner and also i mean she had been in it since the eighties so i think that there she is seen as a boss as well of some kind has a lot of say in it i think sure put it that way okay so she.

[Jane Marie]

Was into save our children and the wayfarer can we just say what the wayfarer situation was and save our children.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Like what that yeah yeah the best way i can describe it is they thought that children were being stolen and put into wayfair furniture like lockers and things of that nature and being shipped.

[Jane Marie]

Right that wayfair the furniture sales company that i've bought many pieces from was somehow smuggling children into their shipping containers.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

From china or something something like that.

[Jane Marie]

And then the shipping containers arrived in the us and they were basically trafficking children through wayfair purchases it's a very popular conspiracy theory yeah and then the save our children thing wasn't that also the one where like so many preachers have gotten caught like investigating it and actually it turns out they're the creeps.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

You know i have no idea about that but that would not surprise me.

[Jane Marie]

Okay but save our children is like this this project to combat the number's.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Like three hundred thousand or something children that have been smuggled and trafficked in that way that's what they say okay.

[Jane Marie]

So continue on so she was into this conspiracy theory oh yeah it was.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

A facebook group it was a facebook group yeah it was a facebook group i got in there because it was like the leadership group right and there was lots of conversation around this and it actually got taken down by facebook.

[Jane Marie]

Wow good for them for once.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

How many years were you in i was in it for i think like thirteen or fourteen months okay so not too.

[Jane Marie]

Long yeah and how did you get that high up in that short of a time nobody does that honestly a.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Part of it was because i was what is seen as like a religious leader in the church got it i had friends from many different areas of my life from high school and summer camp and college and and yeah i don't know i think that it had to do probably with the trust that people had in me as a religious leader and i think i just had like this perfect mix of people that was able to join in sadly other than myself and maybe one other person there really wasn't success and something that i found that was really frustrating to me was i would tell my leaders like hey i the people just aren't seeing success they're not making money they're not doing this i am what is this situation going on like how is this and they would tell me well they're just not doing what they're supposed to be doing they're not working hard enough they're not doing this or doing that and i'm like well i personally know these people and i know that they are i know that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing and i know that they're putting in effort i know them they're my friend they're someone i've known for years and they would just rely on the fact that they believed they weren't working hard enough they just couldn't be doing it correctly if they weren't successful and so seeing that as well when i was in that leadership space and hearing that also was frustrating for me and turned me off a bit even more along with plenty of other things that i experienced as i just talked about so it.

[Jane Marie]

Sounds like you had this incredible community that trusted you very much and you kind of wrapped them all up in this like anyone who was willing and so you rose through the ranks that way would you say that part of your success and the money you were earning was basically from signup fees or people getting their kits going.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Yeah yeah i would say that i would say that a lot of it was from people signing up buying kits especially like you would get the most commission from someone buying a thirty days healthy living.

[Jane Marie]

Which is the diet program right yes.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

It is the like the clean eating protein fistic you know all of that and you would want them to sign up as a business partner so that they could also get people to do that because you would also get commission from that of course right and it was the most commission that you get unless they brought more but it's very hard when you're spending three hundred and fifty dollars or whatever to try and purchase more which the kit was between i think like three hundred twenty three fifty something to that extent so yeah i would say definitely my goal was to get people to sign up as a business partner and to buy the thirty days to healthy living do it and then have them also sell it.

[Jane Marie]

Right but then that wasn't happening and your uplines were like they're just being.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Lazy right yes that's pretty much what was going on and i didn't really know i was just experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance i didn't really know how to take what my upline said and actually believe it but i tried but the fact of the matter is i knew these people you know i had relationships with these people and i just i couldn't make myself believe that what they were saying was true everyone.

[Ad Voice]

Knows i love alvin june's mani systems i love the fact that i feel so much better with a great manicure i also love the fact that i can do my nails at home instead of the hassle of driving across town and making appointments when you're getting a manicure at a salon alvin june's mani systems have everything you need for a salon quality manicure in one box salon grade tools designed just for diy you can customize it with up to six different polishes and i mean this polish does not chip it can last up to ten days olive and june's polishes have a plump gel like finish and are free of the fifteen different no no ingredients also they're super easy to remove and there's no lamp needed my nails used to look really flat and they chipped all the time and they just kind of looked terrible until i started using alvin june's mani systems and at two dollars a manicure that is some serious savings visit al june dot com dream for twenty percent off your first system that's o l i v e a n d j u n e dot com dash r e a m for twenty percent off your first.

[Jane Marie]

System this podcast is sponsored by gab the youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know social media is driving it this shocked me teens spend an average of nine hours a day on screens outside of school that's basically a full time job outside of school just scrolling endlessly the us surgeon general warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety this is unbelievable or crazy believable forty five percent of girls and thirty two percent of boys feel overwhelming stress from being on social media and together twenty five percent of both feel worse about their own lives here's the good news a company called gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing their approach is tech in steps tech in steps works by providing kid safe phones and watches tailored to every age offering the right device at the right time from gps tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens each device grows with your child bottom line you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult give them gab which keeps them socially connected safely i can't recommend gab enough use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind visit gabb dot com thedream and the code the dream for a special.

[Ad Voice]

Offer this episode of the dream is brought to you by nordstrom the nordstrom anniversary sale is a once a year opportunity to shop new arrivals on sale for a limited time it's a big deal and a great time to stock up and save on your favorite items including deals under one hundred bucks you can save up to thirty three percent on new arrivals from top brands like new balance madewell free people and more you can also save on beauty deals and exclusives from top beauty brands like bobbi brown and my personal favorite kiehl's which is definitely a great brand to buy on sale the nordstrom anniversary sale starts july twelfth and lasts through august third and remember this is not a clearance sale these are new arrivals on sale for a limited time nordstrom makes it easy to shop the anniversary sale with free shipping and returns for online orders online order pickups and more if you're not ordering online while you're in the store check out all the fun anniversary events happening including daily beauty events and freestyling help both going on throughout the entire sale shop now at nordstrom and save up to thirty three percent on new arrivals you know what doesn't.

[Jane Marie]

Belong in your epic summer plans getting burned by your old wireless bill while you're planning beach trips barbecues three day weekends your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back that's why i made the switch to mint mobile with mint you can get the coverage and speed you're used to but for way less money and for a limited time mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for fifteen bucks a month so while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges you'll be chilling literally and financially say buh bye to your overpriced wireless plans jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected charges mint mobile is here to rescue you all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest five g network use your own phone with any mint mobile plan and bring your own phone number along with all your existing contacts easy peasy ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from mint mobile for fifteen bucks a month fifteen dollars for phones i mean i probably paid more than that for my pager when i was in high school remember those this year skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just fifteen bucks a month at mintmobile dot com dream that's mintmobile dot com dream upfront payment of dollar forty five is required equivalent to dollar fifteen a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

So you.

[Jane Marie]

You get in the back office you realize this is like weird conspiracy theory territory and you're getting pressure to have your downline sell more and tell me about how it fell apart for you.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

I would say i really quit over a period of time but after that after when i hit the qualification for regional vice president i had never felt so drained in my entire life of everything i mean socially physically mentally i was just out of it and so i had a feeling i knew i was like there's no way i could put in that same effort for this next month and so at that point i just decided to be okay with whatever happened and i started also working you know adding a side job to what i did because while i did hit the top qualify for the top two percent i still wasn't making a ton of money i mean maybe i was profiting like a thousand dollars a month oh my god compared to what i was spending you know like i mean if my paycheck was fifteen hundred i was probably spending five hundred of that on our bond so you're making.

[Jane Marie]

Like ten thousand dollars a year twelve thousand dollars a year right right i.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Think the most i made was without taxes was like twenty thousand so take taxes out of that and then also take what i was like paying like buying products with for arbonne you know take all of that out and it's probably right around what you just said.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah and how many hours were you putting in oh i felt like it.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Was consistent from the moment i woke up to the moment i went to bed i had to like live this life i felt like it wasn't just like oh i'm reaching out to this person i'm reaching out to people for an hour i felt because it was like a health and wellness everything that i did was for arbonne essentially like the workouts that i did the food that i ate something that they like to say is slowly switch all of your products over so like it was all over my house yeah so it was just a constant reminder and it was a constant anxiety too because if i didn't like if i wasn't eating right if i wasn't working out if i wasn't doing this if i wasn't showing these things and of course if i wasn't being a product of the products then people weren't going to want to buy my product or they weren't going to want to hear more about it right so it was just constant in my head all day every day and you got burnout oh yeah very bad i mean my mental health declined significantly after i hit the forty thousand for regional vice president can you speak.

[Jane Marie]

Specifically about that what did that look.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Like yeah so i pretty much i mean of course there was covid going on but i just felt this kind of exhaustion i'd never experienced and i realized that a lot of it was due to going against what i actually wanted to do so i guess i made myself believe that every like all of my dreams would come true all the exhaustion i'm going through all the pain that i'm going through all the you know the hours i'm spending away from my husband that i'm going through mentally emotionally physically would be worth it because one you know one day i'll get hit national vice president i'll have a a lot of money i will be successful in this it'll be great and he won't have to work time money freedom whatever absolutely absolutely i fully believe that what i was doing was going to do that for me i fully believe that when people join me that that could happen for them too like i genuinely believe this stuff and then i think once i hit the forty thousand i realized that that is just not possible for me in any way shape or form if i had to put in the effort that i did and if i had to almost like treating my down like like they were down like they were kids you know like hey how's it going hey do you need help hey can i do this for you can i do that for you like you want to get on a call do you have anyone you know just constantly i felt like i was berating them with this anxiety to try to hit that forty k and hitting it did not feel.

[Jane Marie]

Good it didn't change anything really it.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Didn'T change anything i thought it would feel you forward i thought it was going to be this euphoric experience and you know all the pretty pictures online that you see and all the excitement that you see and it just wasn't that i was i felt terrible i was exhausted i was just glad i could close my laptop turn off turn my put my phone away turn it off and so after that i feel like i just slowly i mean after that is when i was seeing the things behind the curtain right the facebook group so it was like another layer of the facebook group with the conspiracy theories then it was you know the COVID conspiracy theories stepping in it all it's like a pipeline you know once you fall down it you just go.

[Jane Marie]

All the way.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

I faded into the the shadows i ghosted everybody my mental health was at an all time low in october it was it was to the point where i like needed psychiatrist help i it was it was really bad i'm sorry but i mean it's part of the story now and i'm i'm happy to be able to share that even though it was terrible because i think that we don't i think people are nervous to talk about mental health and i'm pretty big advocate for it you know it got to the point where i just like that living was very difficult for me and it was something that i didn't really want to do luckily i had a great support system and that is what really pulled me out of that space and that's when i was realizing what was going on in mlm i was like whoa this is actually not just arbonne this is all of them and it's actually terrible and eventually people were saying to start a youtube channel so i started it and it just took off and i built it over the last four years and that's really my main place of content when it comes to the things that i cover let's talk.

[Jane Marie]

About the difference between what money you were making in the mlm and what you make on youtube okay yes there.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Is a huge difference how many followers.

[Jane Marie]

Do you have or subscribers do you.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Have on youtube i think i have like twenty seven thousand four hundred around.

[Jane Marie]

There and you can pay your rent.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Or your mortgage that's what i use my youtube money for actually is to pay my rent so i'm very grateful.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah that's more than you know a thousand dollars a month i'm assuming oh.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Absolutely and i don't have to use it for youtube like i i have my microphone that i bought once and i used my iphone sixteen to film and yeah you don't need to be buying stuff no the only thing that i decided to do personally was get an editor her name's ava and i adore her and she edits my videos so i pay her from my youtube money and i'm still able to pay my rent.

[Host]

It'S time to come clean with yourself let's be completely honest are you happy with your job like really happy the unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place but still we stick it out and we give reasons like what if the next move is even worse i've already put years into this place i can't afford to take a wrong step and maybe the most common one isn't everyone kind of miserable at work but there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving it's time to get unstuck it's time for strawberry me they match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be your coach helps you get clear on your goals create a plan build your confidence and keeps you accountable along the way so don't leave your career to chance take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner go to strawberry me career to claim a special offer that's strawberry me career that is a.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Gamble money exponent your podcast okay what is and finding the perfect podcast audience.

[Jane Marie]

For your brand can feel overwhelming but.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

With acast smart recommendations finding the right.

[Jane Marie]

Podcast to sponsor takes seconds powered by ai it curates the ideal podcast list based on your target audience from millennial.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Men into fitness or tech savvy women in business just type in who you want to reach and get instant data driven recommendations start reaching the right listeners.

[Jane Marie]

Today at go dot acast dot com i knew that you had a history of studying theology i wasn't aware that you had done a master's program but something you and i have talked about is the as we were just saying the mlm two qanon pipeline there's another.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Pipeline that you've discovered yes and i think it's been the past like six months i've been thinking about it yeah and it's a pipeline of you know for example kelsey rae is currently in this pipeline okay who's that kelsey ray is a pruvit promoter who has like a really large i think like a million followers on tiktok and pruvit is.

[Jane Marie]

The company that had those diet drinks or keto drinks jessie lee ward who was in our last season who has sadly passed since then she was like way higher up at pruvit yeah jesse.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Lee ward was actually kelsey's upline so yeah they i was introduced to kelsey rae by jesse lee ward i mean i think that we can all kind of see multi level marketing starting to really struggle and has been for a bit and with pruvit being acquired by herbalife a lot of people in pruvit are struggling and kelsey rae being one of them i have noticed this pipeline of you know fraud scammer whatever you want to call it brittany dawn is a great example fraud scammer you keep.

[Jane Marie]

Mentioning these names and i have to just interrupt you because like you are so inside this world yeah you're name dropping but i think in the wider world we don't know who these people are but they're very influential they control millions of people and it's so yeah so brittany dawn i don't know who that is i think i know who she is but i don't know if our audience knows who she is yeah.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

So simply put brittany dawn was a very popular workout influencer health influencer okay she made a big name for herself because she was fit pretty and skinny and essentially what she did was hey you can be like me too if you sign up i can make you a personalized workout and meal plan so she did this made a lot of money from it what started happening was people were responding saying hey i'm not seeing results this is not working for me and there was no response then ultimately a facebook group came out of that and it was essentially an anti britain on facebook group talking about hey this is what my stuff looks like what does yours look like what they found out was that their their personalized workout and meal plans were all essentially the same right their personalized stuff was actually not so personal it was copy and paste yeah absolutely and so they had paid all this money i mean hundreds of dollars for this we're getting no response and so what do you do you try to find other people who are experiencing the same thing you have to know if it's just you or what's going on so they did that got a facebook group out of it where they all came together and were essentially like hey are y' all seeing this too like is this just me and what came out of that was the state of texas sued brittany dawn it was it became a really big thing she was on the news so essentially she had to pay a fine and is no longer to able able to have like a personal business in the state of texas wow yeah but the thing is with brittany dawn she never came out and held herself accountable she made this apology video that was terrible her her laundry was going in the background it was making loud noises it was just disrespectful that's disrespectful disrespectful absolutely i am just here with my heart on my sleeve and i'm here to put everything like i said to rest once and for all i apologize to anyone who feels like they got scammed for me and i genuinely promise that my intentions from the start were pure i wanted to help and impact as many women as i could because i felt like this is why i was given this incredible platform when you're given an opportunity like this you would be stupid not to take it and run with it and unfortunately i ran too fast for one person these claims so what i see with people like brittany dawn is they go into this i don't want to be accountable how can i not be accountable with people thinking i was accountable and what i see is they fall into this christian influencer sphere okay and it's clear like god saved me god made me new so they're not being held accountable anymore and they're not holding themselves accountable essentially because god saved them and god forgave them so why do they need forgiveness from anyone else another one is tony van schoick tony van schoick is was the top income earner and number one the very first monat distributor monat is a multi level marketing hair care company and tony van schoic was let go from from monat let go from an mlm yeah which is surprising because she was bringing them in a ton of money and she also was their very first distributor so i mean it was a big it was big drama and tony sued them they sued tony i still don't know what came out of all of that but i think it might still actually be going however tony today has opened her new a new mlm and it's ridiculous of course like all the rest of them but tony has and i see this with a lot of people in mlm she's gone from this i think she's always kind of been a christian but she went from this like really intense monarch top distributor who was like the ride or die top leader that everyone looked up to and she just falls down this rabbit hole of like christian nationalism and this make america healthy again that pipeline we spoke about a little bit earlier where you go from mlm to extreme qanon christianity and all of that so she's another one that's gone from just being i think a christian to falling into this christianity make america healthy again everything is bad for you except my stuff and the stuff that i make melissa collins is another one i don't know if you've heard about melissa collins tell me everything so i would love to i've covered her for a couple of years at this point and she is the cmo of life activated brands lab is now an affiliate meaning.

[Jane Marie]

They'Ve stopped doing the pyramid scheme style but they're still direct sales right okay.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Right and for a long time the past couple years melissa has always said that will never happen we will never do that companies who do that are just not well run stuff like that well comes out that happens they do it melissa has rarely spoken about it but what i've noticed is she's gone from posting these like mean harsh like you need to step into action you need to join a company this company you need to do this that was.

[Jane Marie]

The biggest pack that we had then now the biggest pack is called the pro kit so in order to purchase a business kit it's either one hundred ninety nine thousand four hundred ninety nine or seven hundred ninety nine the only difference between the kits is the amount of customer coupons you get which are resources to build your business and the products that are inside most people get started on the enhanced or the pro kit and that's what i would highly recommend i'll give you a little clue every single person who makes five figures a month at life activated brands started.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

On the biggest kit success leaves clues.

[Jane Marie]

You figure out those clues yourself if.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

We had more time i can give you five hundred reasons to this soft more like i love my family i love what god's done for us and what god has in the future for us and i've seen this flip so quickly from from when lab was an mlm to when lab is now an affiliate so she's skirting this accountability of when she said this would never happen of when she said companies who do this are just not run well things of that nature she's like look what god has done for us they took this huge vacation right as it was happening so she was a little bit off grid wasn't able to talk to people wasn't able to talk about it but she shared pictures of her family and how wonderful it's been and what a wonderful vacation and look you can do what i do and do something like this with your family and god has provided so much for us and things of that nature where she's now stepping into this i'm a little bit kinder look what look what god has blessed us with situation now that she needs to be held accountable for something.

[Jane Marie]

Right as you were saying they were on vacation and taking pictures and posting them i was picturing jesus with his arms wrapped around the whole family like.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

That you know what i mean right they're like big engagement photos were by a huge cross yeah it was a whole thing and they keep posting them over and over especially now that they're back from their family vacation and i think that's like their way to say like jesus loves us and i don't want to talk about it yeah you.

[Jane Marie]

Know so so then the next level is people believing they're a prophet oh lair leitner there's a couple of these i mean ray higdon as well but lair leitner can we talk about that.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Lara lightner is on this scary level she has several hundred thousands of followers on i think it's a telegram where she is essentially a prophet of god and a prophet of trump particularly and talks a lot about almost as if he is jesus and.

[Jane Marie]

What mlm was.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

She affiliated with so oof she created her own i think she was in black oxygen organic remember the one out by the like the sewer whatever what was it out by a bog yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Not only was black oxygen organics out by a bog it was the bog they were selling people dirt from a bog a gift from the ground drink it wear it bathe in it and while you're at it why don't you just eat it or whatever.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

And then she created her own that's essentially the same thing as black oxygen organic her pdf's show stuff about the plague marburg flu smallpox and pretty much how to use her products to negate those things the plague the plague yeah the plague.

[Jane Marie]

Yep so she has products to fight.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

The plague right she has an herbal book so the medical book i click on why you should put garlic in your ear before going to sleep is the top line no practical medicine for every household it's a home doctor book so it's like a doctor in a book.

[Jane Marie]

I don't know what to make of these personality types what's your theory about what's going on here i think.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Just off the top of my head i think it's greed and i think greed to a certain point becomes an illness i think that when you are so desperate for something you'll believe and do anything to get it and so i think that's where they're at at this point i mean just in delusion.

[Jane Marie]

And that's interesting because that's like one of the deadly sins right right right.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Right that is i mean you're supposed.

[Jane Marie]

To avoid that as a christian can you speak from your position as someone who is a biblical scholar you know theologian what do you think it is about christianity in particular like because this isn't happening inside of mlms in you know with other religions it's not like there's becoming a muslim prophet that runs an mlm or whatever you know like it's it's very christian so what do you think that is.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

I think that honestly a lot of it is racism i mean we see it in herbalife right they go specifically after the hispanic community because they know that if you're an immigrant you're moving to america and you're starting over you don't have a whole lot of money you don't have a whole lot of community and so they're offering these ideas to them that you can get both of those through urban life and i've had a conversation before about this with people who are people of color that they that they see as well that it is a racist thing and i think that when it comes to christian nationalism a huge part of it is racism i think it's more christian nationalism than it is christianity because i mean it's very hard to not find someone in an mlm who does not believe in or will allow themselves even if they didn't at the beginning to believe in these ideas of qanon or to not fall into that trap of conspiracy theory pipeline once you i feel like when it comes to religion and for lack of a better phrase once you enter that cult it's easier to enter another one where people who are like minded are there so entering into christianity if you do fall down this christian nationalism route it's easier to get into mlm it's easier to fall into the qanon pipeline it's easier to just go with the rest of the flow of the people around.

[Jane Marie]

You right can you talk about losing your religion if you have lost it.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Yeah yeah yes so yeah i am no longer religious i would say i did lose my religion and i wanna say that the deconstruction of that started in twenty twenty definitely as i was watching other maybe even earlier but as i was watching trump and people that i knew and love support his way and say this christian should support trump or trump is who god wants to be the president or whatever and i'm thinking in my head like that's actually just that can't be true jesus literally is the opposite of what trump is and wants for the world there's just no way these two things are the same right and as i watched this happen i just couldn't imagine a world where god who created jesus would want trump to be president and allow him to do what he is doing and in my mind it couldn't make sense and then of course once i started questioning that i started questioning everything right like the historical aspect of it all i questioned you know like i guess the leadership in general of churches and these pastors who believe this and that and they're speaking from the bible but they're not actually reading the bible they're just using things to make their point get across right and so just the questioning and the deconstruction started after my experience with trump's presidency and people who i love trusted and knew were smart and that i had been around and that even taught me fell into that like trump is who god wants to be president idea i believe that humans are made to leave a net positive on the world that's what we need to do as humans and that part of that in my case is calling out those who leave a net negative and getting with community of people around me to leave as much of a net positive as we can in our space in our area and if you have reach like myself i'm going to leave a net positive anywhere else that i can so really just being good humans to each other i don't have like a god or a figurehead of any kind it's more just humanity the.

[Jane Marie]

Dream is a production of little everywhere we love you guys please keep listening to us sorry if the ads are weird sometimes we're not in charge of all of them we've talked about this before i love you so much.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Beth.

[Host]

You'Re in charge of ordering the tacos for the meeting today yeah i'm not.

[Jane Marie]

Going to order the tacos uh what.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

I'M going to easy cater the tacos.

[Jane Marie]

With easy cater you can order from.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

A huge food variety of restaurants track.

[Jane Marie]

Expenses and save time nice oh by the way you're emailing the meeting notes.

[Host]

Right no i'm going to easy mail them where's my music sorry ben there's.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

No easy cater for that easycater the.

[Host]

Easy way to order food for work.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Order now at easycator dot com acast powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend.

[Host]

Hey we're the.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

Adam wild and jack show you can find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host]

Every wednesday and jax we talk about.

[Jane Marie]

What well we're just two best pals talking about pop culture dating and also exposing each other's deepest darkest secrets and.

[Julie Jo (JJ)]

If you've ever been ghosted we have a little segment called left on red where we call the person who ghosted you and say hey why'd you do that and usually it leads to some pretty embarrassing and explosive things yeah yeah so check out the adam wild and jack show available every wednesday wherever you get your podcasts acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast dot com.