Your Call Is Important To Us

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream – Episode “Your Call Is Important To Us”

Introduction

In the episode titled “Your Call Is Important To Us,” hosted by Little Everywhere and produced by Dan Gallucci, the focus pivots back to the wellness theme from Season Two. Despite being on vacation, the team brings a compelling rerun featuring listener calls that delve into personal experiences with wellness practices. This episode unpacks both the allure and the pitfalls of the wellness industry, shedding light on real-life stories that highlight the complex interplay between genuine well-being and exploitative practices.

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Segment 1: The Dark History of Gary Young and Young Living Essential Oils

The episode opens with Dan Gallucci recounting the controversial history of Gary Young, the founder of Young Living Essential Oils. Gary's journey from a naturopathic practitioner to a figure embroiled in legal troubles showcases the fine line between alternative wellness and malpractice.

• Early Practices and Legal Issues: Gary Young, despite lacking formal medical training, founded Golden 6 Health World in Spokane, Washington, in 1980. His unlicensed medical practices led to a tragic incident where a water birth at his clinic resulted in the death of a baby due to oxygen deprivation. This led to Young’s arrest and conviction for gross misdemeanor.

  “The owner of the clinic eventually got arrested and convicted of gross misdemeanor for practicing medicine without a license.” [03:00]

• Expansion and Deception in Tijuana: Post-conviction, Young relocated to Tijuana, Mexico, where he continued his dubious practices by promoting unverified treatments like blood crystallization tests and ortho molecular cell therapy, falsely promising cures for cancer.

  “He promised cancer patients that after a three-week stay in his clinic that cost them $6,000, their cancer would be in remission.” [04:10]

• Legacy and Death: Young's legacy persisted through Young Living Essential Oils, a multi-level marketing company that continues to operate despite its problematic origins. Gary Young passed away in 2018 from a stroke, leaving behind a controversial empire.

  “After his daughter drowned and he moved to Tijuana to fleece desperate cancer patients... he died suddenly in 2018 of a stroke.” [04:50]

Segment 2: Listener Stories on Wellness Experiences

The core of the episode features heartfelt and critical listener call-ins, each sharing unique encounters with the wellness industry.

1. Crystal’s Battle with Epilepsy and Wellness Pitches

   Crystal shares her struggle with epilepsy and how she was bombarded with offers from wellness companies promising natural cures.

   “They still hit me up occasionally to ask me if I'd like to get off of my anti-seizure medicine and start taking their quote unquote, all natural medicine.” [06:46]

2. Sasha’s Observations on Evidence-Based Practices

   Sasha, a massage therapist and birth doula, critiques the lack of scientific grounding in many wellness practices, highlighting terms like “quantum mechanics” and “frequencies” used without substantive evidence.

   “Everyone thinks that they have an evidence-based practice. You hear quantum mechanics a lot... I think it's important to know that we aren't all being objective.” [07:01]

3. Tatiana’s Realization of Groupthink in Herbal Workshops

   Tatiana recounts her experience at an herbal workshop where the facade of authenticity was shattered by a violation of protocol, leading her to question the integrity of the process.

   “Something in me at that moment clicked like, oh, we're just pretending. We're all just here pretending together.” [14:33]

4. Jacob’s Encounter with Essential Oils During a Family Crisis

   Jacob describes the intrusive nature of essential oil sales within his evangelical Christian community during his mother's battle with liver failure, criticizing the prioritization of sales over genuine support.

   “People that should care and people family and friends... but at the end of the day I feel like they're trying to sell us oils when we just need food and help.” [18:35]

5. Kelly’s Experience with Quantum Neural Reset Therapy

   Kelly details her skepticism turning into disillusionment after undergoing QNRT, an expensive and scientifically unsupported therapy involving colored eyeglasses and ionic foot baths.

   “I think it's pretty safe to say that I won't likely return for those treatments... because I'm pretty sure that foot bath was also in the neighborhood of 75 bucks a pop.” [36:10]

6. Abby’s Journey from Misdiagnosis to Effective Treatment

   Abby shares her harrowing experience of being misdiagnosed with migraines while suffering from idiopathic intracranial hypertension. Her reliance on alternative treatments delayed effective medical intervention, ultimately necessitating brain surgery.

   “I spent three years undiagnosed... then they found out I didn't have migraines. I was bedridden for three years and then... the surgery worked.” [42:00]

7. Sasha’s Disillusionment with Churches Endorsing Wellness Centers

   In a second caller segment, Sasha expresses discomfort with her church’s endorsement of wellness centers, where spiritual messages were intertwined with promoting chiropractic and hormonal balance services.

   “I just... I don't even know why you would do that.” [40:00]

Segment 3: Understanding the Placebo Effect with Dr. Katherine Hall

Transitioning from personal stories, the episode features an insightful discussion with Dr. Katherine Hall, an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School, who delves into the placebo effect's scientific underpinnings.

• Historical Context and Brain Activity:

  Dr. Hall explains that the placebo effect has roots in the 1800s but gained scientific traction with neuroimaging studies in the early 2000s, revealing specific brain regions activated during placebo treatments.

  “There were very specific regions of the brain that were activated in response to placebo treatment.” [24:49]

• Predictive Processing and Physiological Responses:

  The conversation explores how our brains anticipate outcomes, translating expectations into tangible physiological changes, thereby making placebos a subset of broader cognitive processes.

  “Whether it's through conditioning or expectation, we can translate the context of the therapeutic encounter into a physiological response.” [27:12]

• Case Study: Perkins Tractors:

  Dr. Hall recounts the Perkins tractors case from the 1790s, illustrating how belief and expectation can foster real healing stories, even when the treatments themselves are inert.

  “They painted some wooden sticks silver and ran a study... and guess what? They worked just as well.” [30:00]

• Ethical Implications and the Future of Placebo Research:

  The discussion highlights the need to balance the benefits of the placebo effect with ethical medical practices, advocating for a deeper understanding of what makes people feel better beyond deceptive treatments.

  “We need to really figure out what's important here and how to deliver it so that people can feel better.” [32:15]

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Conclusion

“Your Call Is Important To Us” masterfully intertwines listener narratives with expert insights, painting a nuanced picture of the wellness industry's impact on individuals. Through these stories and the exploration of the placebo effect, the episode invites listeners to critically evaluate wellness practices and understand the psychological mechanisms that underpin their effectiveness. By addressing both the allure and the potential harm of unregulated wellness trends, the podcast encourages a more informed and discerning approach to personal health and well-being.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “They still hit me up occasionally to ask me if I'd like to get off of my anti-seizure medicine and start taking their quote unquote, all natural medicine.” — Crystal [06:46]

• “Everyone thinks that they have an evidence-based practice... I think it's important to know that we aren't all being objective.” — Sasha [07:01]

• “Something in me at that moment clicked like, oh, we're just pretending... there's no integrity to this process.” — Tatiana [14:33]

• “People... but at the end of the day I feel like they're trying to sell us oils when we just need food and help.” — Jacob [18:35]

• “I spent three years undiagnosed... the surgery worked.” — Abby [42:00]

• “We need to really figure out what's important here and how to deliver it so that people can feel better.” — Dr. Katherine Hall [32:15]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the episode’s critical examination of the wellness industry through personal testimonies and scientific discourse, providing a clear and engaging overview for both existing listeners and newcomers.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. Presenting on Swift Horses Starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War. But their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible. On Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com this episode.

[Advertiser]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Dan Gallucci]

I'm producer Dan Gallucci and this is the dream. We're on vacation this week, but we are bringing you a rerun from season two, our season on wellness that features calls from listeners like you.

[Host]

In 1981, a stranger showed up in Spokane, Washington to open a natural health clinic. He was 32, married, from Idaho. Not a lot is known about his early years, but it is known that he graduated from high school. That's it. He had no medical training apparently. A year before opening the clinic in 1980, he signed up to take a course led by a naturopath, but dropped out after only a few classes, stiffing the course leader with an eighteen hundred dollar unpaid tuition bill. Despite this lack of education, he opened Golden 6 Health World, a facility that offered a variety of naturopathic services and some that he himself developed, like taking blood samples from patients to interpret them, his words. In an effort to detect cancer cells. He also offered water births at the clinic. At that time, the state had been kind of lax in making sure folks practicing medicine were licensed. But something happened at Golden 6 Health World on September 4, 1982 that would inspire the Washington State Department of Licensing and local police to stage a weeks long undercover sting operation of the facility and it would land the owner in jail. On that September day almost 40 years ago, Donna Young came in for a water birth at the clinic. As she and her husband both opposed hospital births, the father was later quoted as saying there are more dam hazards in the hospital than out of the hospital. And there are enough damn statistics to prove it. Labor and delivery went normally, but after the baby was born, the the owner of the clinic encouraged Donna to keep the baby in the water with the mistaken belief that the baby could receive oxygen via the umbilical cord for an extended period of time. They ended up leaving her in the water for almost an hour and the baby died of oxygen deprivation. The county coroner later said there was no reason this should have happened and that it was a perfectly normal, healthy little girl. There's no reason she should not have lived. The owner of that clinic eventually got arrested and convicted of gross misdemeanor for practicing medicine without a license. He was also the baby's father. His name was Gary Young. Later, Gary moved to Tijuana and opened another clinic where he developed a blood crystallization test and something he called ortho molecular cell therapy, both of which he claimed could treat or cure most of the world's ailments. He promised cancer patients that after a three week stay in his clinic that cost them $6,000, their cancer would be in remission. For $10,000, they could be completely cured forever. Word spread through Southern California about this miracle worker just south of the border. And in 1987, an LA Times reporter sent him a blood sample. Cat blood. And the unsuspecting fake doctor gave the reporter a diagnosis of aggressive cancer. Maybe to be funny. The reporter followed up with chicken blood and was diagnosed with an inflamed liver. Your blood is indicating the possibility of a pre lymphomic condition. It appears as though you've recently undergone a high level of upset in your life which has weakened your immune response considerably. We recommend a supervised program of cleansing, detox and rebuilding. They offered him the $6,000 inpatient detox. Or if that was too much and he didn't want to travel, he could treat himself at home with $400 worth of supplements the fake doctor sold in California. Okay, now I'm going to get to the really crazy part. I'm sure some of you listeners know exactly who I'm talking about. And you're either mad at me for maligning one of your favorite people or you're going, oh my God, she went there. But for those of you who've never heard of Gary Young, he's the man who, after his daughter drowned and he moved to Tijuana to fleece desperate cancer patients and healthy people alike out of thousands of dollars. He then started another natural health company, Young Living Essential Oils. The Christian Essential oils company that my family members are involved with. Gary Young, the self proclaimed healer who made millions selling miracle potions to desperate folks from across the globe, died suddenly in 2018 of a stroke. He was 68. That's a story I've been dying to tell you for. Well, since last season. This season you've been dying to tell us some of your stories. Reports of wellness gone bad and good and have flooded our inboxes and Twitter feeds. So we gave you our phone number and asked that you call in and share your stories in your own words. And boy, you guys are fighting some ugly battles out there in Wellnessland. Let's listen to some of the calls.

[Crystal]

Hi, my name is Crystal and I wanted to share my experience with wellness. I had my first grand mal seizure when I was almost 30 years old. It came totally out of nowhere. And of course when it happened, my husband posted on Facebook to let all of my friends know what had happened to me because I had to be taken away in an ambulance and it was very scary. When I came home from the hospital, I had no less than six messages.

[Sasha]

From all of my friends who sold.

[Crystal]

For Duterra, Young Living, Thrive, Plexus, all promising me that if I would just take their product that they can help heal me from the epilepsy that I had been diagnosed with. And they figured that maybe since I.

[Sasha]

Hurt my brain that all of a sudden I would want to buy their wellness products.

[Crystal]

I didn't. But they still hit me up occasionally to ask me if I'd like to.

[Sasha]

Get off of my anti seizure medicine.

[Crystal]

And start taking their quote unquote, all natural medicine. So that's my experience. Thanks for doing what you're doing.

[Sasha]

Really appreciate it.

[Crystal]

Hi, my name is Sasha. I'm a massage therapist and training to be a birth doula. Doula, excuse me. In Minneapolis, Minnesota. I just listened to your podcast with Birth and thought that was really interesting. But the thing that I mostly wanted to share was that I've noticed as somebody who works in the wellness industry and who feels that they have an evidence based and science based practice, and that matters a lot to me, that everyone thinks that they have an evidence based practice. You hear quantum mechanics a lot. To me, that's not something that rings true. You hear about frequencies and things like that a lot. To me that doesn't make sense. Even going into conspiracy theories like chemtrails, people say, well, I listened to an expert. I read about an expert. This guy went to Harvard. He's, he's got to be right? And I Think that as laypeople or even as professionals in science, it's important to know that we aren't all being objective. Much like your podcast shares your own personal, subjective experience and you're honest about how that influences and informs you. And so that's my two cents. I guess it's not really so much an experience as an observation. Thank you. Bye.

[Host]

Sasha's call connects to some evidence we presented in episode five of this show, the one about birth. In that episode, we also talked about the dangers, or maybe not dangers, of phthalates. They've been studied to death and there's possible links to birth defects, though causality has been hard to prove. But right after our show, like one day after that episode was out of our hands and I said maybe there wasn't anything to worry about with phthalates. A paper came out saying, hold up, wait a minute. Maybe they're actually terrible for pregnant people, even in low doses, and can affect early embryonic cells, leading to miscarriage, among other things. But the study was done on worms. The doctor we talked to in that episode argued, phthalates are everywhere. They're the thing that makes plastic flexible and they make things stick to other things like printer ink. So just look about thee to find some. Using phthalate free as a selling point on your natural shampoo bottle, but not warning customers that there's a ton more phthalates on the 3 foot long CVS receipt for that shampoo. That's where the problem lies. Either phthalates are a global health threat and we have to change everything about the physical environment we've built with them, or we live with an unknowable amount of risk. Welcome to the almost impossible to navigate world of true wellness. Okay, back to the calls.

[Tatiana McCoffkin]

Hi Dream podcast. My name is Tatiana McCoffkin. I'm from California and I have a little story I've been waiting to tell someone. So thanks for asking. So it was probably back in like 2005. I had young children and was feeling confused about it. I wasn't prepared to have children and disoriented and needing to find a new sense of identity for myself. A lot of mothers go through that, you know, and so I was doing something to take care of myself, to sort of be good to myself by signing up for this herbal workshop. So the herbalist who taught this workshop had created a little mini industry in a small northern California, backwoods kind of way. But she would hold these workshops at her place. Women would come and gather and they would learn about different aspects of Wellness, so to speak. Herbs work in her garden. Well, not really work in her garden, but like have classes that were oriented around the garden or around more creative type stuff, introspective sort of activities. So it was sort of like a bonding, self nurturing experience at the same time as supposedly educational. So one day it was time to learn about flower essences. Now, flower essences are supposedly like energy medicine, kind of. She explained how they work that you are getting the basically sort of.

[Host]

We didn't warn callers that they'd get cut off if they talked too long. So Tatiana called back.

[Tatiana McCoffkin]

Okay, I'll try and wrap it up in this message. In this last message. So we're going to learn about flower essences. And she explains how it works. The energy of the flower needs to be transmitted into the water, and then it provides this magical medicine that transmits this healing energy just from sort of the quality of the flower's magical vibration or whatever. So she tells us how to make the flower essence, which is you have a bowl of water. I'm sure there were special things like it was a crystal bowl or a glass bowl or something in the water was like from a spring or, you know, like, I don't remember all those details, but what she said is that you put the flowers into the water, but you do not touch the flowers or the water. You do not want your human finger to touch these things because we are making something that is just a pure vibration of flour. And I was in a small group, I think there were four or five of us, and we were gathered around this little bowl and putting flowers into the water with some kind of tool. Maybe it was like chopsticks or something like that. And this one flower was a little bit stuck. It was kind of damp and sticking to the tool or whatever. And one of the members of our group just, you know, a little sneaky gesture. She reached in there and just poked the flower, bumped it into the water, right? She's touching it with her finger. We've been clearly instructed not to touch these things. And I felt this sense like, wait a minute, that's not what we're supposed to do. But nobody in the group said anything. It was one of those little moments of shared denial, I guess. And something in me at that moment clicked like, oh, we're just pretending. We're all just here pretending together. And it's making us feel good to do this together. There's no integrity to this process. We're paying all this money to just come here.

[Crystal]

It's.

[Tatiana McCoffkin]

And kind of play, act together in the woods and pretend to make medicine. And this medicine is pretend medicine, but flower essences are sold.

[Host]

Then Tatiana got cut off again. Sorry, Tatiana. You're a real trooper.

[Tatiana McCoffkin]

All right, well, that's the basic story. And I also gave a presentation at the end of this session where I was reporting on this flower calendula, and I just looked in a book and read all the things it was supposed to do. It was supposed to cure cancer. It was supposed to cure aids, and I fucking included that in my stupid report. It's embarrassing, you know, but it's also good to remember that group mentality, that groupthink that we had and that people still have. Friends of mine, even today, are surprised when I tell them that homeopathy is bullshit and they don't want to believe it. I live in Northern California. Did I mention that? Okay, so, anyway, thank you so much for the show. Hope you like the story. I don't know if it's good enough to use. So, anyway, thanks again.

[Crystal]

Bye.

[Jacob]

Yeah, my name is Jacob. Love the podcast. So just calling in about my experience with wellness, more or less. My mother's about a year ago. There's a bunch of people in our circle of friends, and more or less because they're, you know, evangelical Christians. I come from a church background. All my friends are Christians, Therefore, all my friends seem to be selling young living essential oils. And it's a huge part of a lot of the culture of people around us, and they're always trying to get us to try it, be a part of it. And about a year ago, my mom started going through liver failure and was extremely sick and was in the hospital for a while and went through a year of just being really sick, and we didn't know if she was going to make it. And it just really surprised me and shocked me how many people kind of came out of the woodwork not so much to help with practical things with my dying mother, but more or less to try to sell her essential oils. You know, we were worried about things like meals and trying to make sure that my mom had food because she wasn't able to necessarily cook or take care of her house. And people were showing up not to help with those things, but to sell oils that she should ingest or rub on her liver to help with that. So it's just. It's been a really shocking kind of experience with. With that. And so I'm glad that you guys have touched on a lot of the essential oils because it's, you know, obviously the wellness mixed with this multi level marketing where they're, they're trying to sell a product but it's like people that should care and people family and friends that, that we love and that love us. But at the end of the day I feel like they're trying to sell us oils when we just need food and help with, like I said, practical things or just a hay praying for you or thinking of you. But instead it's Facebook message after Facebook message of this oil will help your liver. This oil is going to help your digestive system. This oil help detox you. Not even mention. Obviously my mother would never take any of these things because she's on such a regimented diet and medication and you know, she can't even take a Tylenol without consulting her doctor right now with the state of her liver. So why would she put something that potentially could damage her further into her body? So this has been something that's really been really horrifying.

[Crystal]

Foreign.

[Host]

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[Narrator]

Brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. Presenting on Swift Horses starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War. But their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card sheet he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible. On Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com this episode.

[Advertiser]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Paige]

This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

[Crystal]

Hi there. My name's Allie. I'm based in the Bay Area. I have a good story about wellness. I've been getting these B12 shots basically all over the Bay Area there's these like, happy hours. We can go get a shot of the vitamin B12. Well, I have no idea if they, like, actually work and the scientific evidence has been pretty shoddy, but my therapist recommended them and since I have seasonal depression and there's a lot of really great treatments for seasonal depression and so I go and get my B12 shots every few weeks and I think that they work. They could be utter bullshit, but I really enjoy them and. Yeah, thanks so much. Hi, my name is Karen and this is my story. Like you, I had a fall when I was in my childhood in fourth grade. I fell down the stairs. I fell down two flights of stairs and hit my head on the concrete. I woke up, I was dizzy. They sent me to the doctor and they said I had a concussion. I was sent home from school like you. I had migraines. I was, you know, it was debilitating. It was really awful. I was throwing up. I was sick. I had to grind my teeth at night. And I'm taking all kinds of medication for it. I'm taking Xanaflex, which is a really, really intense muscle relaxer. Topamax, which is an anticonvulsant. I'm taking painkillers. Basically, I take a fistful of pills every Night. All this medication for the intense amount of pain and the amount that I clench and grind my teeth at night, it's really terrible. Anyway, over Christmas, my family decided to go to Las Vegas and now I'm a goody two shoes and I've never done any drugs before in my life. My siblings, who are significantly cooler than I am and significantly more party animals, decided we were all going to go to a dispensary together. And they handed me CBD gummies because we were going to watch a Cirque du Soleil show. And let me tell you, the knot between my shoulders was gone, the clench in my jaw was gone. I was relaxed. I didn't feel high. I went to bed. I took another one. I woke up in the morning and it was as strong or stronger than any of my medications. It was like magic. I have taken one every night before I go to bed. I've realized it's better for me to take every night. And I've taken this medicine for years and I'll swear by them. Thanks.

[Host]

I love this caller. She is like me in every way, except she hasn't done drugs for fun and I am thrilled that she found something that works for her. So, yes, it's totally possible that a substance CBD that does nothing for me or at most makes me grumpy ER actually has pain relieving and anti anxiety effects. That's still being studied. The jury's still out. But it's also possible that what we're all experiencing at least some of the time, is a version of the placebo effect. And what's so wrong with that? We've mentioned the placebo effect as a powerful force in the wellness world many times now on this show. So we sought out an expert who could tell us more about it.

[Dan Gallucci]

My name is Katherine hall and I am an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School and an associate molecular biologist at Brigham and Women's hospital in Boston.

[Host]

Dr. Hall is currently studying how our genetics might impact our response to placebos, which is an amazing idea and important to figure out. Think about it. Placebos are used as the control for every clinical trial, for every FDA approved medication. So it'd be nice to know if there are differences already inside each of us that would somehow throw those experiments off. Right? Right. Yes. But today we're just going to get into the basics of the placebo effect. Dr. Hall took a very kind break from looking at our DNA and talked me through what the placebo effect even is.

[Dan Gallucci]

You know, we're still trying to quote unquote piece it together. We started off with a very simple hypothesis, and this is, I'm talking the 1800s, 1900s, that your imagination was this powerful mediator of clinical response. And I think that, you know, nobody would argue that that's not true, but there's an incredible stigma associated with that. And, you know, what is our imagination? Like, where is it coming from? Obviously, we think it comes from the brain. And so when in the early 2000s, they started to do neuroimaging on brains of people while they were being treated with placebos, they saw that there were very specific regions of the brain that were activated in response to placebo treatment. And they also saw that the greater your expectation for benefit from a treatment, the more signaling there was in the brain. And this shouldn't really shock us, because if you think about it, if somebody was to walk in now and bang on the door and say, you know, like, you need to get out. There's a fire, three things are going to go up at a minimum. Your heart rate is going to go up, your breathing will change, and you're going to physically get up, right, to move your muscles, and you're going to have this translation of words into a physiological response. So it's not surprising then, that whether it's through conditioning or expectation, we can translate the context of the therapeutic encounter into a physiological response. Because we do that all day long. That's what we do.

[Host]

We also did this other thing Dr. Hall told me, about predictive processing, where we make a mental map of the world and update it as we go through life, you know, guessing what might happen next and being right enough of the time to not feel completely startled all the time.

[Dan Gallucci]

You don't have to go too far from prediction processing to start to understand how placebo response or placebo effect might be one small subset of that phenomenon that we've cut out and carved out and kind of put in the context of the medical clinical encounter, right?

[Host]

So, meaning whether a drug is an actual pharmaceutical medication or sugar, as long as there's not some wild, adverse, unexpected.

[Dan Gallucci]

Effect, you can see a shift. Placebo researchers are the first to say that this is not true for all conditions and all diseases. If you have cancer and you go to the physician, you're packed with hope. And when you take that chemotherapy treatment or that pill, you can still have a placebo response or a placebo effect. It's just that it's not going to have an impact on the tumorigenic process that's happening independent of all that. But if for instance, I go in and I have this knee pain. The first insult may have been like, I bounced my knee, right? And I see that it's red or it's black and blue. And when I touch it, I feel the pain. Pain. You know, I'm definitely engaged in this pain process, interaction with this wound that I see, and I'm experiencing the pain. If somebody gives me this, you know, somebody who I really believe in gives me this ointment and says, rub this on it. In a couple days, you're probably going to feel much better. I might rub it on it. And now I'm going to start to check in, right. Wait, how am I feeling? Oh, you know, I might not have. I don't really feel that so much. I must be getting better. And I've created this. I have shifted the prediction, and now I'm starting to move away from a focus on the pain. I've taken my focus off of the pain and I've put my focus on, am I getting better?

[Host]

Right.

[Dan Gallucci]

Which is a good thing because at the end of the day, we want to be well, we want to feel better.

[Host]

Dr. Hall also told me about the first placebo study ever done in the 1790s. This guy named Elisha Perkins came up with this therapy using two metal rods that he claimed could draw off the noxious electrical fluid that lay at the root of suffering. They were called Perkins tractors, and people were into them. Google them. The illustrations from the time of people being cured are bonkers. The tractors became such a popular magic cure all that that hospitals were buying them up, and Perkins claimed that the president bought some. But within a few years, some British physicians started to doubt the efficacy of these metal rods. So they painted some wooden sticks silver and ran a study telling patients they were being treated with the real Perkins tractors. Never mind the fact that neither set were doing anything. And guess what? They worked just as well.

[Dan Gallucci]

Now, what's amazing about this paper that he writes is the stories of the healing. You know, he has. Mr. So and so, who for years has been unable to walk, another person who's been unable to lift their arm, somebody who's been depressed. And to a man or a woman, these people, the physicians that do the studies with these sham wooden tractors report amazing findings. But the thing that is more amazing to me and more all of us, on a certain level, alarming, is not that these things work, because we've seen this, all of us have seen some version of this in our lives or maybe even have experienced it, but it's the Fact that we then stigmatize and take the tractors away and we don't replace it with something that is just as effective. And I'm not saying that we should be giving people placebos. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we need to really figure out what's important here and how to deliver it so that people can feel better.

[Host]

What's the goal? Right.

[Dan Gallucci]

What's the goal?

[Host]

Right. Because the point is for people to feel better.

[Dan Gallucci]

Exactly.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Gallucci]

But to be safe. And it would be obviously better if the thing that they were buying had some efficacy.

[Host]

That's so complicated though, because listening to your body, if you want your body to be feeling better because of this thing, and then it does because you wanted it.

[Dan Gallucci]

If you think about, like, how many different things we can put in our body on this planet, it's surreal and disturbing. And there's a really old quote that says it's, you know, that anything can be poisonous at some dose. And so I think we do have to be very cautious what we put in our body. And thank God we have kind of, at least in terms of drugs, the FDA to kind of put a barrier on things that. And tell us, like, you know what, this might cause you to have tardive dyskinesia, but that's okay because it's gonna treat your symptoms of schizophrenia. You know what I mean?

[Host]

Like, this will get rid of your cancer, but your hair is going to fall out and. That's right, exactly.

[Dan Gallucci]

You can make that trade off for yourself. Right. And I think there's no substitute for that.

[Sasha]

Hi. I grew up in a family who were big believers in some naturopathy and stuff like that. We basically only saw a chiropractor and listened. It was really serious. I actually ended up with Hodgkin's lymphoma at the age of 16. No idea what, you know, no idea how that happened. But the chiropractor that we saw, he recommended to us that we go to Houston and receive a treatment from an FDA not approved doctor named Dr. And I ended up doing his treatment for, I don't know, at least six weeks or more. And my cancer actually spread during that time. And apparently Dr. Is still practicing and is still not FDA approved. And I've been cancer free for a really long time. But that's because I eventually went through medical science to get radiation and surgery and all the things that actually did the job. So, Yeah, I was 16, it was like 1990. And so, yeah, I've been well since then. But I just thought you guys might be curious to hear about this guy Dr. Down in Houston, you know, that he's been going on for so long.

[Crystal]

Thank you so much.

[Sasha]

Bye.

[Host]

We wanted to name the clinic and tell you all about it. So I called and gave them a heads up that we were running this story and asked for comment. And that's when they asked me to tell them the patient's name so they could find her file and talk about her. And that's when I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, but maybe it's not illegal if you're not a real medical doctor, which this one isn't. He has a doctorate, so that's why we had to bleep it.

[Kelly]

Hi there, this is Kelly from Wisconsin. I am calling to tell you about my wellness experience. I'm somebody who has occasionally gone for chiropractic care, acupuncture, that sort of thing. And I got a referral to a wellness center in Eau Claire where I went and had something called qnrt, Quantum Neural Reset Therapy. And though I was skeptical, I tried to go in with an open mind and my insurance would mostly cover it. At any rate, turns out that this doctor essentially had me wear a few different pairs of like tinted colored eyeglasses while waving lights around my body, had me hold vials with certain things in them, and at the end told me that I should try to avoid soy products and chocolate and had me say some affirmations to close out this treatment. He sent me into a different room where I had an ionic foot bath which used tap water and this rusty looking electrical device that supposedly was pulling toxins out through the soles of my feet. And as I sat there in my 30 minute ionic foot bath, actually with a laser that resembles something that they scan UPC codes at the grocery store, one of those pointed at me. I guess that's the laser therapy part. I was reading the scientific articles about whether or not an ionic foot bath was a thing that actually did any good for anyone and descuring increasingly frustrated. So maybe I was doing those affirmations wrong. But yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that I won't likely return for those treatments. Especially because I'm pretty sure that foot bath was also in the neighborhood of 75 bucks a pop. So thanks for the work that you're doing. I'm very much appreciating the podcast and keep it up.

[Narrator]

This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics, presenting On Swift Horses Starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband, Lee, are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War, but their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible. On Swift Horses opens April 25th only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com this episode.

[Advertiser]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Paige]

This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it on Uber Eats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

[Advertiser]

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[Sasha]

Hey, I live in Northeast Wisconsin and you ask for submission about wellness and kind of our experience and that sort of thing. But the thing that turned me off the most this was something that happened was I was attending a church here in northeast Wisconsin, and it's an evangelical church, non denominational church, whatever. And for some reason, the pastors decided to start in endorsing local wellness center, chiropractic office, that sort of thing. And within six months, a lot of events that this church hosted. So, like a woman's retreat or the Christmas women's service, or definitely several Bible studies. But they would incorporate messages of how maybe one reason you're unbalanced spiritually or maybe another reason why you feel unwell about God or about life is because your hormones are out of balance and you need to go to this place to get a balance or get a chiropractic adjustment. This is preached from the pulpit. And then as you walked out of the sanctuary, there were coupons, referral coupons that you could pick up to go to this place. And I just. Oh, it was so sickening.

[Crystal]

Sickening to me.

[Sasha]

I just, I. I don't even know why you would do that. Anyway, thanks.

[Crystal]

Hello, my name is Abby. I am a patient who has a rare brain thing called idiopathic intracranial hypertension. And I spent three years undiagnosed, and they called it migraines. So we did all of the alternative treatments for migraines because it turns out there are no real medical treatments of size of your medications for migraines. So we did acupuncture and chiropractic treatments and we did date piercings, and we had all of those because. And paid out of pocket for it and didn't do a thing. But we did it because, like, maybe, maybe there's a chance we'll do something. It will help. And wouldn't that be amazing? Because I was basically bedridden for three years and then, yeah, then they found out I didn't have migraines. I had idiopathic intracranial hypertension. And the only treatment is really brain surgery. And so then all of a sudden that worked. The surgery worked and people stopped trying to sell me on alternative treatments. And it was. Honestly, it was the best thing because when I was sick and doing all the alternatives, well, it's more complimentary. We're doing them complimentary, but they stopped selling them to us when they figured out, like, oh, no, she's really sick. And. Yeah. Thank you for doing this podcast. It justifies everything that I think and believe and have experienced. Thank you so much.

[Host]

Thanks so much to all the listeners who called in with your stories of wellness. We really appreciate it. The dream is a production of Little everywhere and rate. Review and subscribe wherever you listen. Thank you.

[Narrator]

This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics presenting on Swift Horses starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War, but their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible on Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com this is.

[Paige]

Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it on Uber Eats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

[Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.