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[00:01]
John Jantsch
So what if the ideas you already have are worth more than any marketing campaign you could run? And what if the only reason they aren't spreading is that you've never built a system to move them past your own reach?
[00:13]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
Hey, I want to say a quick word about something we run here at Duct Tape Marketing. If you're a fractionalist cmo, a consultant, or an agency owner, you've got the expertise. What's hard is turning what you know into a practice that pays you like clockwork. That's what our certified Duct Tape Advisor program does. Over 90 days, you'll work one on one, one with a coach to build a strategy. First engagement, a product literally that you can sell, a repeatable way to deliver it, and a path to ongoing fractional CMO work. You earn the credential and a license to run our system under your own brand. And here's my favorite part. Our first client promise. Do the work, finish the program, and if you haven't landed your first client in 90 days, we keep going with you. Until you do, go to DTM World Certification and book a 90 day roadmap session. That's DTM World Certification.
[01:21]
John Jantsch
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jayus. My guest today is Peter Winick. He is the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, co host, the Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast. And we're going to talk about his new book that he co authored, the Thought leadership handbook, how the experts elevate their big ideas, and how you can too. So, Peter, welcome to the show.
[01:46]
Peter Winick
Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.
[01:48]
John Jantsch
So I had Keith Ferrazi on this show, believe it or not. I've been doing this show since 2005. Okay. I had Keith on when Never Eat Alone came out. And I know you have a bit of history with him. Maybe let's start there.
[02:03]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I started working with Keith in 2005, actually, when we launched Nugget Alone. And I worked exclusively for Keith for three and a half years. So I was brought in to build out the training and development business and I took over the speaking business. And this is in the stone Ages, you know, before so many things. But it was an amazing experience. He's still a dear friend. And it really gave me the. The spark to say, you know what, why be monogamous, right? Like, there's lots of other thought leaders out there that could use help because Keith, as you know, is an amazing marketer. Most thought leaders, when you put on a list of paper, what they're really great at marketing doesn't come up in the top 100.
[02:44]
John Jantsch
Yeah. I can't tell you how many people have come to me with and thought leaders written a book and they're like, what do I do to start marketing it? And it's like, well, that was about a year ago.
[02:55]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[02:57]
John Jantsch
So you're absolutely right. So in the handbook, you. You actually introduced five avatars. There's one probably the one that. That I thought was most intriguing.
[03:05]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
Thought leaders on the run.
[03:08]
John Jantsch
So unpack that one for us. That's kind of the. The person that's too busy doing the work to even consider themselves a thought leader, maybe, huh?
[03:16]
Peter Winick
Well, the thought leader on the run, when you break it down by the percentages over the 5 avatar, is the one that shows up the most. Why? Because it's. It's how they operate. Right. So what does that mean? It means, and it's not that it's good or bad, it just is right, that in order for them to get the idea out, primarily, they need to be in the room or in the zoo. So they tend to live a lot in airports.
[03:39]
John Jantsch
Right.
[03:39]
Peter Winick
They're going from event to gig, and they put on the thought leader hat or the author hat or the keynote speaker hat more than they do the CEO hat.
[03:49]
John Jantsch
Right.
[03:50]
Peter Winick
So typically when they come to us, the issue is, hey, I love my life. I'm blessed. This is amazing. I get paid the big bucks to go to be in Miami on one day and, you know, Arizona on another day. But I'm a little tired. You know, I'd like to sleep in my own bed. And from an impact standpoint, how do I get these ideas out to more people in more ways? And how do I balance my portfolio? So it. So the revenue generated is not a function of how busy was I last week, last month, last quarter?
[04:18]
John Jantsch
So one of the things that you. Another phrase that stuck with me. Ideas can't speak for themselves. You know, I wrote a book on referrals, and my second book was called the Referral Engine. In a lot of ways, that. That was the premise of that. It's like a lot of. I think a lot of thought leaders, a lot of business leaders think, hey, I do good work. People will talk about me. You know, they'll talk about the great results, you know, as opposed to doing anything intentionally, you know, around sort of amplifying the fact that they are referable. So how do you actually get people to start thinking in terms of like, that ties to that Ideas can't speak for themselves. How do you get people to actually start spreading that idea that intentionally that they are worth referring.
[04:58]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I think there's two questions there. Let me, Let me. I hear that as two different or two slightly different things.
[05:04]
John Jantsch
Usually there's six questions, but.
[05:05]
Peter Winick
Yeah, right, right. One is there are the ideas piece is how do we get the ideas out to the most people, the most relevant people most often. So to me, that's typically a function of format and all that. Right. So, you know, a book is great. People don't read. I mean, that's a general statement. But like a book is not today, is not what a book was. Video is awesome. But if you're reluctant to get on video, you're missing opportunity. There's short form, there's long form, whatever. So one is, where do your ideas live and how does that align to where the folks that you're trying to reach and connect with consume that information? That's the first piece. The other piece, in terms of the ideas not speaking for themselves, is what I would think about as velocity. Right. So there's personal velocity. You and I are talking right now, so I can't be talking to someone else right now. Or if I. If I was, that would be pretty rude or whatever. Right. So there's a limit to that. So my personal velocity is how I choose to spend my time to get the word out and get the message out. Now, this is more velocity than you and I just having a conversation. Although we've done that, and that's great. We're recording. This is going to be on your podcast. You know, lots of people hear it. That's pretty cool. The system velocity really thinks so. Personal velocity is pretty straightforward. What is it I, the thought leader, can do to get my ideas out on a consistent basis? The system velocity, what are the other ways it could go out? That's not dependent on me. Right. Me as the human. Right. Me as the person. So there's lots of other ways ideas get out in the universe. And are you. Are you choosing to participate in the right ones to meet your business objectives, which is your strategy?
[06:46]
John Jantsch
Yeah. And, you know, one of the challenges is there's so many things we can do, so many things we're told we should do. And so, you know, the. I think one of the greatest skills possible is developing focus and discipline, you know, to stay just what you said, to stay focused on the few things maybe that you should do.
[07:06]
Peter Winick
Well, I would say yes end. Right. So the yes end is the focus and discipline is great as long as you're focused and disciplined on the right things in the right sequence to get the outcomes, which is strategy. Right. So that to me, my clients, and you know this better than I do, thought leaders that we all know, they're not lazy, right? They're working really hard, they're passionate or evangelical in terms of what it is they're doing. But, you know, activity is not productivity. And I think that's a trap that a lot of thought leaders fall into. I'll just get up, you know, I'll work harder, do it faster. I'll get 25 hours in a 24 hours day. And it's like, well, if you have 98 plates spinning in the air, you know, is that really good? You know, as opposed to, you know, your point on the fewer. But it's the right fewer for sure, right?
[07:50]
John Jantsch
Yeah, that was. Hopefully that was implied. So one of the things, one, one common thing that I've heard over the years, whether they're a thought leader or just a business owner, even, you know, that it's like, oh, I don't want to tell them how to do my secret thing that I do. You know, but then they won't need me. And, you know, I've. I know you take the opposite view of that, and so do I. I mean, I've always felt like they don't want to know how to do it. They want to know that I know how to do it.
[08:16]
Peter Winick
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one word for that, and quite frankly, it's stupid. Right? So, like, when Stephen M r. Covey wrote the Seven Habits, it wasn't, well, we'll just publish five of them and you want the other two, you got to send us some money. That's just, you know, stupid. Right. And I think the way it works is we put 20 years of models and methods and frameworks into the book and exactly the argument you just made. Oh, but if you put it out there, why do they need you? More people will need us at a higher price point as a result of that. The subset of people that buy the book and read the book and do it yourself. That's awesome. I love that. Like, if we can help those folks, I never could have helped them. You know, they just can't be clients right now. Now, that might change down the road. And I think that's really the piece. And, you know, if you think about it from a keynoter standpoint, you and I have both seen 50 $100,000 keynoters, and you get their stuff on YouTube, so you'd say, well, why would I. Anybody pay to bring them in the room? Well, there's a difference of. That's a totally different experience than watching a YouTube video.
[09:13]
John Jantsch
You mentioned the thought leader on the run was maybe the most prevalent. Who. Who do you think has the most un. Potential? Now, is that same group, or is there. Is that a different avatar?
[09:25]
Peter Winick
You know, that's an interesting piece. I mean, I would say they all have potential because of the different things that we have available to us today.
[09:35]
John Jantsch
Yeah, right.
[09:36]
Peter Winick
Whether that's, you know, the technology, the AI, the learning, you know, as a thought leader Today, you know, 20 years ago, we're talking about this, you know, two old dudes sitting here talking about 20 years ago. The typical model for a successful thought leader was to publish a book every 18 months. Yeah, right. That was the. Your publisher put the gun to your head. 18 months. 18 months.
[09:54]
John Jantsch
Now, it was very effective, as a matter of fact, and.
[09:57]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
Yeah.
[09:57]
Peter Winick
And it worked. Didn't. No, it worked until it didn't. Now the reality is it takes the average author 2, 2 and a half years to write a book. How can you get one out in 18 months? There's a negative math problem there. So new was a relative term. Right. So I think now there are more options, more choices, more ways to get your stuff out. I do think that there are a lot more impact and legacy executives. Right. So these are folks that are. Have had great success, typically commercially, whether they're C suite and a Fortune 1000, or they built up a business and sold the business, and they're at a stage in life where they're like, you know, I've done the money thing, you know, checked all the boxes there. That's all good. But what I'm really passionate now at this stage of life is X. Whatever X is. And I want to do that, and I want to spend more time doing that, and I want to understand what that is. And the way I measure my success might not be, you know, dollars generated or a number of keynotes, a number of books or whatever. But how many people starting to think about my ideas? Are they being introduced as part of the vernacular in the business community? Whatever communities I serve, there's a lot of that going on now because guess what? You know, the old days of retire at 62 and be dead at 65, you have a lot of Runway, played shuffleboard for a couple of years, and then, you know, good night, Charlie. Right now you got 20, 30 years to figure out what you want to do.
[11:13]
John Jantsch
Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to be really painful 20, 30 years if you don't. Right. Yeah, I, I think a lot of people are coming to that realization. T. I mean, I can't, like we've gone 11 minutes, this might be a record. And I haven't mentioned AI yet and talk about how, I mean, AI is just flooding. Flooding the thought leadership, you know, category, if you will.
[11:35]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[11:36]
John Jantsch
How does somebody actually, so, so to me, a thought leader, you know, originally was you had a framework, you had a couple original ideas. You could put 67,000 words, you know, into a document. But today anybody could do that in about half a day. Right. So. So what separates real thought leadership from just, I don't know, semi smart sounding people?
[11:58]
Peter Winick
Yeah, I think, you know, you could fool some of the people. So I'll tell you bad ways or things that are not helpful to you, your brand, your growth as a thought leader, to use AI and things that I've seen that are cool, creative, interesting, whatever. So bad ways are you can pick up a tool and say, give me 40,000 word book on this and this in the style of that, this and the other thing, and it'll spit something out. Now anybody, you know, you know, with any sort of IQ that's in the three digits will look at that and go, there's no there. Right. Like, there's no there, right. There's like, okay, that's a lot of words on a page.
[12:35]
John Jantsch
It could have been a 700 word blog post.
[12:37]
Peter Winick
Yeah. Or a pod or, you know, whatever. So I think, you know, just because you can create a lot of stuff now, I think actually where you can create it and you know this better than I, as a marketer, content marketing, I think AI can do some really good stuff from thought leadership. I think you have to say, okay, what is it good at and what is it not good at? So good at examples. I've seen lots of keynoters say, you know, I never spoke to this type of group before, you know, newly minted IT professionals. Let me push my stuff through there and see, give me a few examples that would resonate most with this audience at this company today. So that's research, Right. I think for us, we did something that I think was kind of cool, but I'll let you weigh in on that. Right. The genesis of the book for us was a couple years ago, I started playing around with AI and chat and all that. Why? Because everybody else is doing. I'm like, I got to play with this thing. Right. And what I knew was we had a bunch of models and methods and frameworks. And I knew that would never be a book, right? That would be an IKEA manual that nobody would read. Models, methods, right? Like maybe there's a subset of the universe that loves that stuff. My, my dear friends, the engineers. But like, that would not be something I would read, right? But I knew that we had this podcast and at the time we had 650 episodes and we had transcripts. So I said, hmm, Let me take 30 transcripts. And they were all categorized to a similar theme. And I threw it into chat and I played with it for hours and hours over a weekend. And what it taught me was one. My memory is terrible because if somebody asked me what were your favorite, most memorable things from the podcast you've done? I would answer a few. But if you asked me the same question a week later, I might answer differently, you know, but it gave me themes and it gave me patterns and it gave me things to look at, look deeper on. So what I did was what every sort of ADD CEO does on a Monday morning. They call their much smarter, process oriented, analytical coo. And I said, bill, Bill Sherman. Hey, I got this idea. You know, we've like talked about writing a book. We don't want to write a book. But like I played with Chad over the weekend. I think we can knock this thing out in like, I don't know, a month, maybe two, you know, and here's why. And he did the, you know, almost like somewhere between a therapist and somebody knows you've gone off the deep end. And he said, well, maybe. Which is the non committal. Let's go check it out. Well, fast forward. 650 episodes at the time was 2.3 million words, right? So if the average business 50,000, that's a lot of books. And Bill was able to come up with some real tools to be able to pull those patterns. And then we always went back to the tapes, right? Many times we'd go back to the thought leader and say, you might not remember this conversation. And actually we took it a little out of context. But I want to talk to you about this vignette here, this little story that you told me. Can we talk about that? Because we're writing a book that gave us brilliance. And to answer your AI question, that would have taken us years and six grad level interns and they like pizza and beer and to get paid every Friday. So that to me was a smart use of AI in terms for us to get to the book where we wanted it to be. So it is a good Book for those that we wrote it for.
[15:34]
John Jantsch
Yeah, I, you know, I've never done that with my podcast. I've done, you know, about 2200 episodes now.
[15:41]
Peter Winick
There might be a vignette there or two.
[15:42]
John Jantsch
I mean, I probably should do. Do that. I mean, I've had guests on three and four times, you know.
[15:47]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[15:47]
John Jantsch
Or more, you know, I think Seth's been on five times probably. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there's something in there that. That would be really interesting. And I. That's my favorite use, frankly, of AI is analysis. Yeah, I just, it's just so much richer than I would ever come up with even if I spent, you know, 100 hours on it. Talk to me a little bit about one of the things that I know. I mean, this was part of Keith's, you know, framework, and I'm sure you've built it into yours too. This idea of impact equation, you know, like getting into rooms that, you know, you maybe don't know how you're going to get into. So talk a little bit about how that idea influences some of the thought leaders you work with.
[16:27]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I think every thought leader wants their work to have impact.
[16:31]
John Jantsch
Yeah, right.
[16:31]
Peter Winick
They just do. Like, we're not writing this for ourselves, although sometimes we are at a moment in time. But the impact equation, it was a way for us to say, how do you do this? Like, because Keith's secret sauce is the power of developing relationships. That's his secret sauce. Right. And never it alone. And a lot of his other books were sort of what that looked like. And then he's evolved into sort of some different thinking today. So we looked at the impact equation because equations are cool, right? Like, they just are, and said, here's how what it looks like. Number one idea, simplicity. You gotta get it down to its molecular. Now that sounds obvious and easy, but ask an academic that spent 25 years as the top of their game or world class at whatever, tell me the gist of your work in two or three sentences. Most can't do it because it's been beaten out of them. It's not how they're trained. It's not whatever. And if you can't make it, like, simple, then it's not accessible, so there's no point there. The next is the relevance to the audience. Right. So you might have something that's really simple, but if you gave me the simplest way to knit a blanket, it has no relevance to me. I'm not someone that knits now somebody else that Might be, oh my God, that's a hack that I'll use every day. But like, what's the relevance to me? And then the next. Is this the velocity? We talked about velocity before? What are you doing to get it out there? And then what is the share of audience? And I think the share of audience piece is interesting. You know, if this was a startup, we'd be talking about total addressable market. But one of the most freeing things for me and that I try to share with my clients is guess what, John? You're irrelevant to 99.99% of the people on this planet. And that's an amazing thing. Right? Because all you need to do now is say, what can I do to be as relevant as possible to that point? 01% that matters most. And maybe it's 95% or whatever. But like, for the most part, you know, you're irrelevant. Right, I'm irrelevant. And the beauty of that is I don't have to spend my time chasing my tail. Right. Like, I know that I want to talk to people like you. I don't want to be on a podcast for, you know, I don't know, stay at home moms in Iowa, bless their little hearts, but those aren't my peeps.
[18:32]
John Jantsch
Yeah, that's one of my favorite lines from Sandler. Had David on the show a couple times, you know, over the years, was just, he's, you know, the mo. The best thing you can get is fast nose. You know, the idea of the people that are like the worst thing in the world is maybe because now you gotta like worry about it for the next six months and send 87, you know, follow up email emails.
[18:53]
Peter Winick
Exactly.
[18:54]
John Jantsch
You know, but for somebody to go, no, you're not for me, you know, and obviously that's in a sales environment, but as a thought leader, but clearly understanding who's for you, who's not for you and communicating that. So people sort of self select whether or not they want to be in your universe. Right. I mean, that's part of the equation, isn't it?
[19:12]
Peter Winick
Yeah. And you don't want to be in the conversion business.
[19:15]
John Jantsch
Yeah, Right.
[19:16]
Peter Winick
If you spend a lot of your energy and effort, you know, it's a great business model for the Mormons. It's worked for them. Like, it's really expensive to try to convince someone that your way is a better way, that your way of thinking might help them. You could do a little bit of that. But if I got to spend, like you said, you know, 10 phone calls trying to show you that my way is better than yours. Why wouldn't I talk to someone that's already sort of absorbed some of my thinking and said, you know, I kind of dig what you say and I think you could help me. That's just a better place for both of us to be.
[19:43]
John Jantsch
Yeah, 100%. I'll ask you directly, and I think we're going to be on the same page on this. What's the biggest benefit of being seen as a thought leader, you know, even if it's in a tiny pond, you know, of your city?
[19:56]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I'll tie this back to marketing because it's what I believe. Right. So we, every one of us, I don't care what business you're in, whether it's product, whether it's services, professional services, selling, consumer package, because we're all being commoditized. That's not a good thing. Right?
[20:11]
John Jantsch
Yeah.
[20:11]
Peter Winick
So if you're being commoditized, what does that mean? Downward pricing pressure, lack of distinction between you and somebody else, this, that and the other thing. So I believe not for everyone, but definitely high tech, financial services, professional services, many more, that thought leadership is the most cost effective way to stand up from the competition, to show the world what you're about to put it out that you can't. You know, if I was going to come out with a new beverage, I could never outspend Coca Cola. Just not going to happen. But you see these new beverages coming out now, for example, that are, you know, protein enriched or whatever, or probiotic or whatever. It's like, okay, so if you're going to put out a probiotic beverage, the first question I would have is what the hell is a probiotic beverage? That's leadership. Here's what it is and why it might be beneficial to you, whatever. So I think take a step back and say, what could you put out there in the world to punch above your weight, outshine your competition and you know, lead with your thinking? Because everything else that you do, if I'm an accountant, there's a million other people that can do my taxes right. If I'm a lawyer, plus or minus, you know, they're all kind of the same consultant, like, it's just an agency. We're all the same.
[21:16]
John Jantsch
And they might not be, but that's the perception.
[21:20]
Peter Winick
That's what looks right.
[21:22]
John Jantsch
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, I will tell you, I, I actually took it into the home services business. I had a remodeling contractor and I convinced to do this and 2000 early 2000s to be a thought leader. And now they charge. They're the largest in their community and they charge a premium. And that's. That was really the answer. I mean, you said it in a number of ways, but being seen as the thought leader. You can charge a premium. People expect to pay a premium.
[21:48]
Peter Winick
Well, and it's a, it's, you know, at the end of the day, it's just math. It's the most. My experience, it's the most cost effective net new client acquisition tool I've seen. Right. I'll give you another example that was, you know, you got to be smart. I think it was 10 years ago, my math could be wrong. When Massachusetts was the first state to legalize gay marriage. Okay, that's cool. So what does that mean? Well, there was a divorce lawyer that happened to be gay and he said, geez, here's what's going to happen in the next 6, 18, 24 months. I could put a stake in that ground and put out some thought leadership on the nuance of gay marriage, because I'm gay, I'm a divorce attorney, so I'm, I've got an advantage. Let me start putting this stuff out there. Because as they're walking back down the aisle is probably not the time to hand to my card. This will take some time. And it did. Like, you didn't have to be a genius to figure out, you know, more people that weren't able to do category
[22:36]
John Jantsch
of business, so to speak.
[22:37]
Peter Winick
Yeah, right.
[22:39]
John Jantsch
Yeah.
[22:40]
Peter Winick
And that time came, he was already putting articles out there and things out there or whatever that market came to him, as opposed to spending big bucks putting out, you know, billboards or whatever the divorce attorneys might do.
[22:52]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
So.
[22:53]
John Jantsch
So, Peter, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the shows or someplace. You invite people to find out about your work and obviously the pick a copy of the Thought Leadership Handbook.
[23:03]
Peter Winick
Well, the Thought Leadership Handbook is, as they say, available wherever books are sold. So you can find them in the usual places. You could find me at our site, which is thought leadership leverage.com and on, you know, all the typical socials.
[23:16]
John Jantsch
Yeah. Awesome. Well, again, great catching up with you and I appreciate it and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
[23:22]
Peter Winick
I will. Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.
[23:26]
John Jantsch
It.

Summary6 min read

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Episode: AI Can Create Content. It Can't Create Thought Leadership
Date: July 29, 2026
Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Peter Winick, Founder & CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, Co-author of "The Thought Leadership Handbook"

Overview

This episode explores the real meaning and value of thought leadership in an age where AI can mass-produce content but struggles to originate true expertise or elevate impactful ideas. John Jantsch and Peter Winick reflect on how experts can intentionally spread their unique insights, leverage systems for impact, and use AI smartly—without diluting their authority. Drawing from Peter's new book and decades of experience, the conversation offers rich, actionable strategies for anyone aiming to build influence and break through in a crowded digital world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Consulting to Thought Leadership: Peter's Journey

John shares his history with Keith Ferrazzi and Peter's role launching Keith’s early work (02:03).
Peter reflects on starting with Keith in 2005 and realizing marketers are rare among thought leaders (02:03–02:44).
Quote – On expertise vs. marketing:
"Most thought leaders, when you put on a list of paper what they're really great at, marketing doesn't come up in the top 100." — Peter Winick (02:18)

2. Five Avatars of Thought Leadership & “The Thought Leader on the Run”

Peter introduces “thought leader on the run” as the most common avatar: successful and always traveling, but limited in impact scale (03:15–04:18).
Quote:
"They put on the thought leader hat or the author hat or the keynote speaker hat more than they do the CEO hat." — Peter Winick (03:38)

3. Spread Your Ideas Intentionally: "Ideas Can't Speak for Themselves"

Discusses why simply doing good work isn’t enough—intentional systems and velocity are needed to spread ideas (04:18–06:45).
Velocity Framework:
- Personal velocity: How you—personally—share ideas (limited to your time and voice).
- System velocity: Structuring systems that spread your ideas independently from your hands-on involvement.
Quote:
"Activity is not productivity...it's the right fewer [actions], for sure, right?" — Peter Winick (07:05)

4. Transparency Vs. “Secret Sauce” Fears

Tackling the fear of giving away expertise—Peter and John both agree it’s foolish to hide value (07:50–09:13).
Quote:
"There's one word for that, and quite frankly, it's stupid...If you put it out there, more people will need us at a higher price point as a result of that." — Peter Winick (08:16)

5. The Evolving Model of Thought Leadership & Impact Avatars

Shift from books every 18 months to leveraging digital content, AI, and new platforms (09:36–11:13).
Emerging “impact and legacy” leaders—professionals who’ve achieved commercial success and now seek meaning and wider influence.

6. AI: Content Creation vs. Real Thought Leadership

John: “AI is flooding the thought leadership category...” (11:13)
Peter explains AI can write content, but not originate groundbreaking thinking; using AI without substance is obvious and forgettable (11:57–12:37).
Smart Uses of AI:
- Researching examples for new audiences
- Analyzing themes and patterns in large content archives (Peter's own podcast transcripts as the genesis for his book)
- Tools for insight, not for mindless content generation
Quote:
"AI can do some really good stuff from thought leadership. But you have to say, what is it good at and what is it not good at?" — Peter Winick (12:37)
Memorable Moment:
Peter’s process of using AI to analyze 650 podcast transcripts, identify themes, and prompt deeper reflection rather than create content verbatim (13:10–15:34).

7. The Impact Equation: How Ideas Spread & Take Hold

Discussion on Keith Ferrazzi’s “impact equation” and the need for simplicity, relevance, velocity, and share of the right audience (16:26–18:31).
Quote:
"You gotta get it down to its molecular...If you can't make it simple, then it's not accessible." — Peter Winick (16:31)
Share of audience: Focus on serving the 0.01% who matter, not trying to be relevant to everyone (17:45–18:31).

8. Fast “No’s,” Self-Selection, and the Power of Rejection

John and Peter discuss the value of “fast no’s” in marketing/sales, allowing both sides to focus energy where there’s true fit (18:31–19:42).
Quote:
"You don't want to be in the conversion business...Why wouldn't I talk to someone that's already...absorbed some of my thinking?" — Peter Winick (19:12)

9. Thought Leadership as the Ultimate Competitive Advantage

Thought leadership is the best way to escape commoditization, stand out, and command premium positioning (19:56–21:48).
Case examples: Lawyers, accountants, contractors, and beverage brands who used thought leadership to outshine much bigger competitors (21:19–22:39).
Quote:
"Thought leadership is the most cost-effective way to stand out from the competition, to show the world what you're about, to put it out..." — Peter Winick (20:11)

Notable Quotes

"Most thought leaders...marketing doesn't come up in the top 100." — Peter Winick (02:18)
"They put on the thought leader hat...more than they do the CEO hat." — Peter Winick (03:38)
"Ideas can't speak for themselves." — John Jantsch (04:18)
"AI can do some really good stuff from thought leadership. But you have to say, what is it good at and what is it not good at?" — Peter Winick (12:37)
"You gotta get it down to its molecular...If you can't make it simple, then it's not accessible." — Peter Winick (16:31)
"You're irrelevant to 99.99% of the people on this planet. And that's an amazing thing...All you need...[is] to be as relevant as possible to that 0.01% that matters most." — Peter Winick (17:45)
"You don't want to be in the conversion business." — Peter Winick (19:12)
"Thought leadership is the most cost-effective way to stand out from the competition..." — Peter Winick (20:11)

Key Timestamps

02:03 – Peter Winick’s background with Keith Ferrazzi and early thought leadership
03:05 – The “Thought Leader on the Run” avatar explained
04:18 – Systematic idea amplification & the limitations of “just doing good work”
07:05 – Focus, discipline, and the trap of confusing busyness for productivity
08:16 – Why giving away your expertise publicly multiplies demand
11:13 – The challenge and promise of AI in the thought leadership space
13:10 – Using AI to analyze themes from podcasts, not generate platitudes
16:26 – The Impact Equation for spreading ideas: simplicity, relevance, velocity, share of audience
18:31 – Embracing “fast no’s” and fitting your audience
20:11 – Thought leadership as a path out of commoditization and toward premium status

Resources & Further Learning

Thought Leadership Handbook by Peter Winick and Bill Sherman — Available wherever books are sold
Thought Leadership Leverage Website

Final Thoughts

John and Peter deliver practical, experience-rich insight on how to nurture, package, and proactively spread high-value thinking in a world awash with generic AI content. Their consensus: AI is a tool, not a substitute. True thought leadership is about clarity, intention, systems—and having the courage to aim for meaningful impact with the right audience. If you want to become more than a content creator—if you want to lead, influence, and command premium value—this is a must-listen conversation.

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Transcript69 lines

[00:01]
John Jantsch
So what if the ideas you already have are worth more than any marketing campaign you could run? And what if the only reason they aren't spreading is that you've never built a system to move them past your own reach?
[00:13]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
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[01:21]
John Jantsch
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jayus. My guest today is Peter Winick. He is the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, co host, the Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast. And we're going to talk about his new book that he co authored, the Thought leadership handbook, how the experts elevate their big ideas, and how you can too. So, Peter, welcome to the show.
[01:46]
Peter Winick
Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.
[01:48]
John Jantsch
So I had Keith Ferrazi on this show, believe it or not. I've been doing this show since 2005. Okay. I had Keith on when Never Eat Alone came out. And I know you have a bit of history with him. Maybe let's start there.
[02:03]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I started working with Keith in 2005, actually, when we launched Nugget Alone. And I worked exclusively for Keith for three and a half years. So I was brought in to build out the training and development business and I took over the speaking business. And this is in the stone Ages, you know, before so many things. But it was an amazing experience. He's still a dear friend. And it really gave me the. The spark to say, you know what, why be monogamous, right? Like, there's lots of other thought leaders out there that could use help because Keith, as you know, is an amazing marketer. Most thought leaders, when you put on a list of paper, what they're really great at marketing doesn't come up in the top 100.
[02:44]
John Jantsch
Yeah. I can't tell you how many people have come to me with and thought leaders written a book and they're like, what do I do to start marketing it? And it's like, well, that was about a year ago.
[02:55]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[02:57]
John Jantsch
So you're absolutely right. So in the handbook, you. You actually introduced five avatars. There's one probably the one that. That I thought was most intriguing.
[03:05]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
Thought leaders on the run.
[03:08]
John Jantsch
So unpack that one for us. That's kind of the. The person that's too busy doing the work to even consider themselves a thought leader, maybe, huh?
[03:16]
Peter Winick
Well, the thought leader on the run, when you break it down by the percentages over the 5 avatar, is the one that shows up the most. Why? Because it's. It's how they operate. Right. So what does that mean? It means, and it's not that it's good or bad, it just is right, that in order for them to get the idea out, primarily, they need to be in the room or in the zoo. So they tend to live a lot in airports.
[03:39]
John Jantsch
Right.
[03:39]
Peter Winick
They're going from event to gig, and they put on the thought leader hat or the author hat or the keynote speaker hat more than they do the CEO hat.
[03:49]
John Jantsch
Right.
[03:50]
Peter Winick
So typically when they come to us, the issue is, hey, I love my life. I'm blessed. This is amazing. I get paid the big bucks to go to be in Miami on one day and, you know, Arizona on another day. But I'm a little tired. You know, I'd like to sleep in my own bed. And from an impact standpoint, how do I get these ideas out to more people in more ways? And how do I balance my portfolio? So it. So the revenue generated is not a function of how busy was I last week, last month, last quarter?
[04:18]
John Jantsch
So one of the things that you. Another phrase that stuck with me. Ideas can't speak for themselves. You know, I wrote a book on referrals, and my second book was called the Referral Engine. In a lot of ways, that. That was the premise of that. It's like a lot of. I think a lot of thought leaders, a lot of business leaders think, hey, I do good work. People will talk about me. You know, they'll talk about the great results, you know, as opposed to doing anything intentionally, you know, around sort of amplifying the fact that they are referable. So how do you actually get people to start thinking in terms of like, that ties to that Ideas can't speak for themselves. How do you get people to actually start spreading that idea that intentionally that they are worth referring.
[04:58]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I think there's two questions there. Let me, Let me. I hear that as two different or two slightly different things.
[05:04]
John Jantsch
Usually there's six questions, but.
[05:05]
Peter Winick
Yeah, right, right. One is there are the ideas piece is how do we get the ideas out to the most people, the most relevant people most often. So to me, that's typically a function of format and all that. Right. So, you know, a book is great. People don't read. I mean, that's a general statement. But like a book is not today, is not what a book was. Video is awesome. But if you're reluctant to get on video, you're missing opportunity. There's short form, there's long form, whatever. So one is, where do your ideas live and how does that align to where the folks that you're trying to reach and connect with consume that information? That's the first piece. The other piece, in terms of the ideas not speaking for themselves, is what I would think about as velocity. Right. So there's personal velocity. You and I are talking right now, so I can't be talking to someone else right now. Or if I. If I was, that would be pretty rude or whatever. Right. So there's a limit to that. So my personal velocity is how I choose to spend my time to get the word out and get the message out. Now, this is more velocity than you and I just having a conversation. Although we've done that, and that's great. We're recording. This is going to be on your podcast. You know, lots of people hear it. That's pretty cool. The system velocity really thinks so. Personal velocity is pretty straightforward. What is it I, the thought leader, can do to get my ideas out on a consistent basis? The system velocity, what are the other ways it could go out? That's not dependent on me. Right. Me as the human. Right. Me as the person. So there's lots of other ways ideas get out in the universe. And are you. Are you choosing to participate in the right ones to meet your business objectives, which is your strategy?
[06:46]
John Jantsch
Yeah. And, you know, one of the challenges is there's so many things we can do, so many things we're told we should do. And so, you know, the. I think one of the greatest skills possible is developing focus and discipline, you know, to stay just what you said, to stay focused on the few things maybe that you should do.
[07:06]
Peter Winick
Well, I would say yes end. Right. So the yes end is the focus and discipline is great as long as you're focused and disciplined on the right things in the right sequence to get the outcomes, which is strategy. Right. So that to me, my clients, and you know this better than I do, thought leaders that we all know, they're not lazy, right? They're working really hard, they're passionate or evangelical in terms of what it is they're doing. But, you know, activity is not productivity. And I think that's a trap that a lot of thought leaders fall into. I'll just get up, you know, I'll work harder, do it faster. I'll get 25 hours in a 24 hours day. And it's like, well, if you have 98 plates spinning in the air, you know, is that really good? You know, as opposed to, you know, your point on the fewer. But it's the right fewer for sure, right?
[07:50]
John Jantsch
Yeah, that was. Hopefully that was implied. So one of the things, one, one common thing that I've heard over the years, whether they're a thought leader or just a business owner, even, you know, that it's like, oh, I don't want to tell them how to do my secret thing that I do. You know, but then they won't need me. And, you know, I've. I know you take the opposite view of that, and so do I. I mean, I've always felt like they don't want to know how to do it. They want to know that I know how to do it.
[08:16]
Peter Winick
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one word for that, and quite frankly, it's stupid. Right? So, like, when Stephen M r. Covey wrote the Seven Habits, it wasn't, well, we'll just publish five of them and you want the other two, you got to send us some money. That's just, you know, stupid. Right. And I think the way it works is we put 20 years of models and methods and frameworks into the book and exactly the argument you just made. Oh, but if you put it out there, why do they need you? More people will need us at a higher price point as a result of that. The subset of people that buy the book and read the book and do it yourself. That's awesome. I love that. Like, if we can help those folks, I never could have helped them. You know, they just can't be clients right now. Now, that might change down the road. And I think that's really the piece. And, you know, if you think about it from a keynoter standpoint, you and I have both seen 50 $100,000 keynoters, and you get their stuff on YouTube, so you'd say, well, why would I. Anybody pay to bring them in the room? Well, there's a difference of. That's a totally different experience than watching a YouTube video.
[09:13]
John Jantsch
You mentioned the thought leader on the run was maybe the most prevalent. Who. Who do you think has the most un. Potential? Now, is that same group, or is there. Is that a different avatar?
[09:25]
Peter Winick
You know, that's an interesting piece. I mean, I would say they all have potential because of the different things that we have available to us today.
[09:35]
John Jantsch
Yeah, right.
[09:36]
Peter Winick
Whether that's, you know, the technology, the AI, the learning, you know, as a thought leader Today, you know, 20 years ago, we're talking about this, you know, two old dudes sitting here talking about 20 years ago. The typical model for a successful thought leader was to publish a book every 18 months. Yeah, right. That was the. Your publisher put the gun to your head. 18 months. 18 months.
[09:54]
John Jantsch
Now, it was very effective, as a matter of fact, and.
[09:57]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
Yeah.
[09:57]
Peter Winick
And it worked. Didn't. No, it worked until it didn't. Now the reality is it takes the average author 2, 2 and a half years to write a book. How can you get one out in 18 months? There's a negative math problem there. So new was a relative term. Right. So I think now there are more options, more choices, more ways to get your stuff out. I do think that there are a lot more impact and legacy executives. Right. So these are folks that are. Have had great success, typically commercially, whether they're C suite and a Fortune 1000, or they built up a business and sold the business, and they're at a stage in life where they're like, you know, I've done the money thing, you know, checked all the boxes there. That's all good. But what I'm really passionate now at this stage of life is X. Whatever X is. And I want to do that, and I want to spend more time doing that, and I want to understand what that is. And the way I measure my success might not be, you know, dollars generated or a number of keynotes, a number of books or whatever. But how many people starting to think about my ideas? Are they being introduced as part of the vernacular in the business community? Whatever communities I serve, there's a lot of that going on now because guess what? You know, the old days of retire at 62 and be dead at 65, you have a lot of Runway, played shuffleboard for a couple of years, and then, you know, good night, Charlie. Right now you got 20, 30 years to figure out what you want to do.
[11:13]
John Jantsch
Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to be really painful 20, 30 years if you don't. Right. Yeah, I, I think a lot of people are coming to that realization. T. I mean, I can't, like we've gone 11 minutes, this might be a record. And I haven't mentioned AI yet and talk about how, I mean, AI is just flooding. Flooding the thought leadership, you know, category, if you will.
[11:35]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[11:36]
John Jantsch
How does somebody actually, so, so to me, a thought leader, you know, originally was you had a framework, you had a couple original ideas. You could put 67,000 words, you know, into a document. But today anybody could do that in about half a day. Right. So. So what separates real thought leadership from just, I don't know, semi smart sounding people?
[11:58]
Peter Winick
Yeah, I think, you know, you could fool some of the people. So I'll tell you bad ways or things that are not helpful to you, your brand, your growth as a thought leader, to use AI and things that I've seen that are cool, creative, interesting, whatever. So bad ways are you can pick up a tool and say, give me 40,000 word book on this and this in the style of that, this and the other thing, and it'll spit something out. Now anybody, you know, you know, with any sort of IQ that's in the three digits will look at that and go, there's no there. Right. Like, there's no there, right. There's like, okay, that's a lot of words on a page.
[12:35]
John Jantsch
It could have been a 700 word blog post.
[12:37]
Peter Winick
Yeah. Or a pod or, you know, whatever. So I think, you know, just because you can create a lot of stuff now, I think actually where you can create it and you know this better than I, as a marketer, content marketing, I think AI can do some really good stuff from thought leadership. I think you have to say, okay, what is it good at and what is it not good at? So good at examples. I've seen lots of keynoters say, you know, I never spoke to this type of group before, you know, newly minted IT professionals. Let me push my stuff through there and see, give me a few examples that would resonate most with this audience at this company today. So that's research, Right. I think for us, we did something that I think was kind of cool, but I'll let you weigh in on that. Right. The genesis of the book for us was a couple years ago, I started playing around with AI and chat and all that. Why? Because everybody else is doing. I'm like, I got to play with this thing. Right. And what I knew was we had a bunch of models and methods and frameworks. And I knew that would never be a book, right? That would be an IKEA manual that nobody would read. Models, methods, right? Like maybe there's a subset of the universe that loves that stuff. My, my dear friends, the engineers. But like, that would not be something I would read, right? But I knew that we had this podcast and at the time we had 650 episodes and we had transcripts. So I said, hmm, Let me take 30 transcripts. And they were all categorized to a similar theme. And I threw it into chat and I played with it for hours and hours over a weekend. And what it taught me was one. My memory is terrible because if somebody asked me what were your favorite, most memorable things from the podcast you've done? I would answer a few. But if you asked me the same question a week later, I might answer differently, you know, but it gave me themes and it gave me patterns and it gave me things to look at, look deeper on. So what I did was what every sort of ADD CEO does on a Monday morning. They call their much smarter, process oriented, analytical coo. And I said, bill, Bill Sherman. Hey, I got this idea. You know, we've like talked about writing a book. We don't want to write a book. But like I played with Chad over the weekend. I think we can knock this thing out in like, I don't know, a month, maybe two, you know, and here's why. And he did the, you know, almost like somewhere between a therapist and somebody knows you've gone off the deep end. And he said, well, maybe. Which is the non committal. Let's go check it out. Well, fast forward. 650 episodes at the time was 2.3 million words, right? So if the average business 50,000, that's a lot of books. And Bill was able to come up with some real tools to be able to pull those patterns. And then we always went back to the tapes, right? Many times we'd go back to the thought leader and say, you might not remember this conversation. And actually we took it a little out of context. But I want to talk to you about this vignette here, this little story that you told me. Can we talk about that? Because we're writing a book that gave us brilliance. And to answer your AI question, that would have taken us years and six grad level interns and they like pizza and beer and to get paid every Friday. So that to me was a smart use of AI in terms for us to get to the book where we wanted it to be. So it is a good Book for those that we wrote it for.
[15:34]
John Jantsch
Yeah, I, you know, I've never done that with my podcast. I've done, you know, about 2200 episodes now.
[15:41]
Peter Winick
There might be a vignette there or two.
[15:42]
John Jantsch
I mean, I probably should do. Do that. I mean, I've had guests on three and four times, you know.
[15:47]
Peter Winick
Yeah.
[15:47]
John Jantsch
Or more, you know, I think Seth's been on five times probably. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there's something in there that. That would be really interesting. And I. That's my favorite use, frankly, of AI is analysis. Yeah, I just, it's just so much richer than I would ever come up with even if I spent, you know, 100 hours on it. Talk to me a little bit about one of the things that I know. I mean, this was part of Keith's, you know, framework, and I'm sure you've built it into yours too. This idea of impact equation, you know, like getting into rooms that, you know, you maybe don't know how you're going to get into. So talk a little bit about how that idea influences some of the thought leaders you work with.
[16:27]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I think every thought leader wants their work to have impact.
[16:31]
John Jantsch
Yeah, right.
[16:31]
Peter Winick
They just do. Like, we're not writing this for ourselves, although sometimes we are at a moment in time. But the impact equation, it was a way for us to say, how do you do this? Like, because Keith's secret sauce is the power of developing relationships. That's his secret sauce. Right. And never it alone. And a lot of his other books were sort of what that looked like. And then he's evolved into sort of some different thinking today. So we looked at the impact equation because equations are cool, right? Like, they just are, and said, here's how what it looks like. Number one idea, simplicity. You gotta get it down to its molecular. Now that sounds obvious and easy, but ask an academic that spent 25 years as the top of their game or world class at whatever, tell me the gist of your work in two or three sentences. Most can't do it because it's been beaten out of them. It's not how they're trained. It's not whatever. And if you can't make it, like, simple, then it's not accessible, so there's no point there. The next is the relevance to the audience. Right. So you might have something that's really simple, but if you gave me the simplest way to knit a blanket, it has no relevance to me. I'm not someone that knits now somebody else that Might be, oh my God, that's a hack that I'll use every day. But like, what's the relevance to me? And then the next. Is this the velocity? We talked about velocity before? What are you doing to get it out there? And then what is the share of audience? And I think the share of audience piece is interesting. You know, if this was a startup, we'd be talking about total addressable market. But one of the most freeing things for me and that I try to share with my clients is guess what, John? You're irrelevant to 99.99% of the people on this planet. And that's an amazing thing. Right? Because all you need to do now is say, what can I do to be as relevant as possible to that point? 01% that matters most. And maybe it's 95% or whatever. But like, for the most part, you know, you're irrelevant. Right, I'm irrelevant. And the beauty of that is I don't have to spend my time chasing my tail. Right. Like, I know that I want to talk to people like you. I don't want to be on a podcast for, you know, I don't know, stay at home moms in Iowa, bless their little hearts, but those aren't my peeps.
[18:32]
John Jantsch
Yeah, that's one of my favorite lines from Sandler. Had David on the show a couple times, you know, over the years, was just, he's, you know, the mo. The best thing you can get is fast nose. You know, the idea of the people that are like the worst thing in the world is maybe because now you gotta like worry about it for the next six months and send 87, you know, follow up email emails.
[18:53]
Peter Winick
Exactly.
[18:54]
John Jantsch
You know, but for somebody to go, no, you're not for me, you know, and obviously that's in a sales environment, but as a thought leader, but clearly understanding who's for you, who's not for you and communicating that. So people sort of self select whether or not they want to be in your universe. Right. I mean, that's part of the equation, isn't it?
[19:12]
Peter Winick
Yeah. And you don't want to be in the conversion business.
[19:15]
John Jantsch
Yeah, Right.
[19:16]
Peter Winick
If you spend a lot of your energy and effort, you know, it's a great business model for the Mormons. It's worked for them. Like, it's really expensive to try to convince someone that your way is a better way, that your way of thinking might help them. You could do a little bit of that. But if I got to spend, like you said, you know, 10 phone calls trying to show you that my way is better than yours. Why wouldn't I talk to someone that's already sort of absorbed some of my thinking and said, you know, I kind of dig what you say and I think you could help me. That's just a better place for both of us to be.
[19:43]
John Jantsch
Yeah, 100%. I'll ask you directly, and I think we're going to be on the same page on this. What's the biggest benefit of being seen as a thought leader, you know, even if it's in a tiny pond, you know, of your city?
[19:56]
Peter Winick
Yeah. So I'll tie this back to marketing because it's what I believe. Right. So we, every one of us, I don't care what business you're in, whether it's product, whether it's services, professional services, selling, consumer package, because we're all being commoditized. That's not a good thing. Right?
[20:11]
John Jantsch
Yeah.
[20:11]
Peter Winick
So if you're being commoditized, what does that mean? Downward pricing pressure, lack of distinction between you and somebody else, this, that and the other thing. So I believe not for everyone, but definitely high tech, financial services, professional services, many more, that thought leadership is the most cost effective way to stand up from the competition, to show the world what you're about to put it out that you can't. You know, if I was going to come out with a new beverage, I could never outspend Coca Cola. Just not going to happen. But you see these new beverages coming out now, for example, that are, you know, protein enriched or whatever, or probiotic or whatever. It's like, okay, so if you're going to put out a probiotic beverage, the first question I would have is what the hell is a probiotic beverage? That's leadership. Here's what it is and why it might be beneficial to you, whatever. So I think take a step back and say, what could you put out there in the world to punch above your weight, outshine your competition and you know, lead with your thinking? Because everything else that you do, if I'm an accountant, there's a million other people that can do my taxes right. If I'm a lawyer, plus or minus, you know, they're all kind of the same consultant, like, it's just an agency. We're all the same.
[21:16]
John Jantsch
And they might not be, but that's the perception.
[21:20]
Peter Winick
That's what looks right.
[21:22]
John Jantsch
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, I will tell you, I, I actually took it into the home services business. I had a remodeling contractor and I convinced to do this and 2000 early 2000s to be a thought leader. And now they charge. They're the largest in their community and they charge a premium. And that's. That was really the answer. I mean, you said it in a number of ways, but being seen as the thought leader. You can charge a premium. People expect to pay a premium.
[21:48]
Peter Winick
Well, and it's a, it's, you know, at the end of the day, it's just math. It's the most. My experience, it's the most cost effective net new client acquisition tool I've seen. Right. I'll give you another example that was, you know, you got to be smart. I think it was 10 years ago, my math could be wrong. When Massachusetts was the first state to legalize gay marriage. Okay, that's cool. So what does that mean? Well, there was a divorce lawyer that happened to be gay and he said, geez, here's what's going to happen in the next 6, 18, 24 months. I could put a stake in that ground and put out some thought leadership on the nuance of gay marriage, because I'm gay, I'm a divorce attorney, so I'm, I've got an advantage. Let me start putting this stuff out there. Because as they're walking back down the aisle is probably not the time to hand to my card. This will take some time. And it did. Like, you didn't have to be a genius to figure out, you know, more people that weren't able to do category
[22:36]
John Jantsch
of business, so to speak.
[22:37]
Peter Winick
Yeah, right.
[22:39]
John Jantsch
Yeah.
[22:40]
Peter Winick
And that time came, he was already putting articles out there and things out there or whatever that market came to him, as opposed to spending big bucks putting out, you know, billboards or whatever the divorce attorneys might do.
[22:52]
Duct Tape Marketing Representative
So.
[22:53]
John Jantsch
So, Peter, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the shows or someplace. You invite people to find out about your work and obviously the pick a copy of the Thought Leadership Handbook.
[23:03]
Peter Winick
Well, the Thought Leadership Handbook is, as they say, available wherever books are sold. So you can find them in the usual places. You could find me at our site, which is thought leadership leverage.com and on, you know, all the typical socials.
[23:16]
John Jantsch
Yeah. Awesome. Well, again, great catching up with you and I appreciate it and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
[23:22]
Peter Winick
I will. Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.
[23:26]
John Jantsch
It.