Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business

Summary

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast: Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business

Host: Jon Jantz
Guest: Dr. Margie Worrell
Release Date: April 10, 2025
Book Discussed: The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action by Dr. Margie Worrell

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Introduction to Dr. Margie Worrell and the Courage Gap

In this enlightening episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host Jon Jantz welcomes Dr. Margie Worrell, a renowned expert on leadership and courage. With an impressive background that spans from the Outback in Australia to high-stakes environments like NASA and the US Congress, Dr. Worrell brings a wealth of knowledge on navigating risks and fostering courageous leadership. She is also the author of six books, including her latest, The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action.

Understanding the Courage Gap

Dr. Worrell introduces the concept of the "Courage Gap," which she defines as the chasm between knowing what should be done and actually taking action. This gap is not due to a lack of knowledge but stems from a deficiency in courage. Fear—of failure, rejection, or making mistakes—widens this gap, preventing individuals and business leaders from making necessary and often difficult decisions.

Margie Worrell [02:22]: "It is a lack of courage. And that gap is widened by our fear. What will happen? What if this person gets upset? What if I mess it up?"

Balancing Fear with Strategic Action

Jon shares his three decades of business experience, highlighting that while courage often leads to growth, there are times when pausing is strategically sound. Dr. Worrell emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between reckless actions and calculated, courageous steps.

Jon Jantz [03:51]: "Sometimes procrastination, but I would call it not procrastination. You're just going to stop for a moment and consider."

Dr. Worrell concurs, explaining that strategic pauses allow leaders to align their actions with their core values and assess the situation thoughtfully, ensuring that their courage is both effective and intentional.

Gender Differences in Experiencing the Courage Gap

The conversation delves into how the courage gap manifests differently across genders. Dr. Worrell acknowledges that women often face additional societal pressures and internalized self-doubt that can exacerbate the courage gap.

Margie Worrell [06:37]: "Women are judged more harshly when they don't get things right... Women are harder on other women."

She references the "Heidi Howard experiment" to illustrate how gender biases affect perceptions of ambition and competence, underscoring the need for women to overcome these ingrained challenges to bridge the courage gap effectively.

Building the Courage Muscle: Habits and Practices

Dr. Worrell introduces the concept of the "courage muscle," which requires regular exercise to strengthen. She outlines several daily habits that can help individuals build and maintain courage:

1. Physical Well-being: Maintaining energy levels through exercise.
2. Mental Focus: Concentrating on high-leverage tasks instead of becoming overwhelmed.
3. Emotional Resilience: Managing stress and self-doubt.
4. Spiritual Alignment: Connecting actions with core values and a sense of purpose.

Margie Worrell [14:29]: "Put yourself out there, ask yourself, what would I do today if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind."

Additionally, she advises setting clear goals, visualizing positive outcomes, and maintaining a posture of confidence to influence both mindset and physiological responses.

Overcoming Fear in Uncertain Times

Addressing the current climate of geopolitical and economic uncertainty, Dr. Worrell provides strategies for maintaining courage amid the unknown. She emphasizes the inevitability of uncertainty and the importance of taking incremental steps forward rather than waiting for absolute certainty.

Margie Worrell [19:36]: "There will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you're going to get left behind."

She encourages listeners to make informed decisions, manage potential downsides, and remain adaptable, likening the approach to navigating through a fog where movement provides better positioning than stagnation.

Practical Coaching: Reframing Fear of Rejection

In a practical segment, Jon puts Dr. Worrell in "coaching mode," seeking advice on overcoming the fear of rejection when approaching a significant sales opportunity. Dr. Worrell advises shifting focus from fear to desired outcomes, emphasizing visualization of success and understanding the value provided to clients.

Margie Worrell [16:57]: "Focus on what you want and not on what you fear... Visualize the best possible outcome."

She outlines a step-by-step approach:

1. Visualize Success: Envision the positive outcome and its broader benefits.
2. Define Value: Clarify the value offered to the client, not just personal gains.
3. Affirm Worthiness: Reinforce self-belief and alignment with core values.
4. Physical Posture: Use body language to influence mindset—breathe in courage, breathe out fear, and stand tall.

Navigating the Unknown with Courage

Dr. Worrell addresses how to act courageously in times of widespread uncertainty, advocating for action over paralysis. She likens standing still to being left behind, while movement, even with potential missteps, leads to greater learning and adaptability.

Margie Worrell [19:45]: "If you're not getting any information, you're not getting any feedback. But when you're in motion, you're getting something that's going to put you in a better position over time."

She encourages taking incremental actions, reassessing regularly, and maintaining a mindset geared towards continuous improvement and learning.

Conclusion and Connecting with Dr. Margie Worrell

As the episode wraps up, Dr. Worrell shares ways for listeners to connect with her and explore her work further. She directs interested individuals to her website, margieworrell.com, where they can find more information about The Courage Gap and her other resources.

Margie Worrell [21:26]: "You can also get it on Amazon and where good books are sold. And I also encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn and Insta and social media. I'm everywhere under my name."

Jon thanks Dr. Worrell for her insightful contributions, leaving listeners with actionable strategies to bridge their own courage gaps and drive their businesses forward with confidence.

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Key Takeaways:

• Courage Gap: The disparity between recognizing necessary actions and taking them due to fear.
• Gender Dynamics: Women often face additional hurdles in overcoming self-doubt and societal expectations.
• Building Courage: Daily habits and mindset shifts are essential for strengthening courage.
• Action Amid Uncertainty: Embrace movement and incremental steps to navigate and mitigate fear.
• Practical Strategies: Focus on positive outcomes, define value, affirm self-worth, and use body language to foster courage.

Notable Quotes:

• "It is a lack of courage. And that gap is widened by our fear." — Margie Worrell [02:22]
• "Put yourself out there, ask yourself, what would I do today if I was being brave?" — Margie Worrell [14:29]
• "If you're waiting for certainty before you make a move, you're going to get left behind." — Margie Worrell [19:36]

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For those looking to cultivate more courage in their business endeavors, this episode provides both the philosophical framework and practical tools to close the courage gap and achieve meaningful growth.

Transcript

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[Marketing Announcer]

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[Jon Jantz]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantz. My guest today is Margie Worrell. From the Outback Australia to Fortune 500 boardrooms, NASA and the US Congress, Dr. Margie Worrell is a global authority on leadership, courage and navigating risk. Best selling author, speaker and coach. She empowers people to make bold decisions. She also the host of a show like this called the Live Brave Podcast. We're going to talk about her sixth book today, the Courage Gap. Five Steps to Braver Action. So Margie, welcome to the show.

[Margie Worrell]

Great to be with you, John.

[Jon Jantz]

So are you living in Australia? No, you can't be.

[Margie Worrell]

I am living. I'm living on the same terra firma as you. I actually live just south of Washington D.C. north Virginia.

[Jon Jantz]

Okay. I was going to say it would be terrible hour to be doing a podcast in Australia.

[Margie Worrell]

It would. 5am yes.

[Jon Jantz]

So let's start with the. With the title of the book, the Courage Gap. What is it?

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. Well, John, have you ever had one of those times where you knew there was something you should do? Like you knew you needed to have a conversation, you knew you needed to make a change, you knew you needed to move someone out of a role or. And yet you held back and you hesitated and you procrastinated and you rationalized and I can see you nodding, of course.

[Jon Jantz]

Who. Who has it?

[Margie Worrell]

Well, you know, it is not a lack of knowledge that creates that gap between. Between what we should do and what we do. It is a lack of courage. And that gap is. Is. Is widened by our fear. What will happen? What if this person gets upset? What if I mess it up? What if I lose money? What if I get it Wrong. What if it's really ugly and awkward and there's, what will people say, what if I fail? And so our fear creates the gap between the actions we're entirely capable of taking, holding someone to account, you know, getting rid of someone out of your business because they're not a fit, et cetera, having a difficult conversation with your co owner and what we actually do. And it takes courage to close that gap. But as I make the case at the start of the book, when we fail to take those risks, to make the change, take the chance, speak up, et cetera, we actually become more vulnerable to worse outcomes over time. So the, the, the, the discomfort we're trying to save ourselves, what we, the, the thing we're trying to avoid, we actually end up suffering way more overtime and end up in a worse place. And it's why, John, that most people, when I speak to them and I do a lot of speaking and run programs, and I'll say, hey, you know, who here can sometimes regrets that they took too long to do a difficult thing? And most people go, yep, yep, yep.

[Jon Jantz]

You know, I've, I've actually been in business 30 years. And so a couple things I've learned over the years is every now and then you like go through that fear and you do the thing and actually what happened was way less worse than you thought it was gonna be. Right. And you, you start banking that. But then there also been times when I've paused and that was the right thing to do too. So how do you kind of like, how do you differentiate between fear based and a strategic pause?

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah, well, I think it's. A pause can be very wise.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah.

[Margie Worrell]

That is just before plowing forward, stepping back, just regrounding for a moment in like, okay, what's going on here? Where are my emotions getting away with, with me? And I think recognizing there's a difference between being brave and courageous and being reckless and foolhardy and impulsive and reactive. I'm talking about considered action. And I think what you're saying is that sometimes procrastination, but I would call it not procrastination. You're not, you know, oh, it's all too hard. It's actually saying, I'm just going to just stop for a moment and consider, consider things thoughtfully. I'm going to try and get the emotions out of this. And as objectively as I can think through the pros and cons, short term and far term, of different courses of action and align with my values, what feels right for me, what has Integrity here. What aligns with the kind of person, leader, business owner, I want to be. I. Okay, now I'm going to move forward. And so there is a distinct difference. And I think practicing a pause is a lot of power in a pause. And I actually think that when we can stop the busy doing, doing, doing and reconnect to who we're being, which, let's face it, a lot of business owners rarely do it actually high grades, the actions we take, it's like, ah, this is what I need to do. It actually can help us be way more effective than just sometimes scurrying furiously and going in circles.

[Jon Jantz]

So I'm gonna probably wade into dangerous territory here.

[Margie Worrell]

Let's go. Let's go. Are we talking about courage?

[Jon Jantz]

We're gonna talk about courage. You're right. Is there a difference in this gap, real or perceived, between men and women? I'm, you know, I'm a white male born in America. Like, I, you know, I think I'm entitled to everything, so why would I have imposter syndrome? Right. I'm. I'm being somewhat facetious, but not the. Is it much harder, say, for a woman to particularly. Or somebody who doesn't have, you know, the advantages that, you know, feels like they're. That imposter syndrome is because they're like, do I belong here?

[Margie Worrell]

Yes, there is absolutely a difference, a gendered difference in our experience of our circumstances, of ourselves, of our ability to navigate risk, what might feel risky. And let me just start by saying that this concept of courage, one, yes, it's a trait. Some people naturally come out of the womb with just a higher tolerance for risk than others. And yes, there's even, There's. There's a gender element to that too. You know, I think of my sons like, mom, look, no hands riding their bike down a hill. And my daughter never did that. But yes, I mean, I'm generalizing, but I think there's some truth to that. Men like seeking out high adrenaline activities more so than women. So I think part of that might be nature. Part of it, nurture. We're not going to debate that. But recognizing courage isn't just the. Isn't just choosing to take action in the presence of fear. It is also the management of our fear. And often we have more fear than we need to have. So we have this magnified perception of risk. Oh, I could never do that. Oh, my God, that would be just terrifying. And actually, you can do it. And it's as. Only as terrifying as you're making it to Be like to start a business, to expand into a new market, to hold someone accountable, et cetera. And as you said before, you know, sometimes we lay awake in bed, oh, I'll let this person go, I gotta hold them accountable. And then we do it, we go, oh, it wasn't that hard. I should have just done it. But for women, you know, and speaking as a woman and I grew up in Australia, where I think there's also a cultural difference in Australia as well to the usa. But I think women, partially because of our social conditioning, do struggle more with self doubt, do second guess themselves more, do not often not feel as confident to put themselves out there to just try something and wing it. I've seen a lot of men going, hey, let's just try this. I don't know quite what I'm doing, but I'll just wing it. And I'll fumble through and I'll mess up a few times and when I do, I'll just go, oh yeah, whatever. Learn something, move on. Women, we ruminate, we second guess, we beat ourselves up when we don't do things.

[Jon Jantz]

Or let's, let's be honest, sometimes you don't get a second chance, you know, whereas just what you said, you know, so there's this fear of like, I can't screw up.

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. And that's true. Women are judged more harshly when they don't get things right. You know, we know, we've heard the glass cliff phenomena, et cetera. But I also think as women, we can sometimes unwittingly internalized misogyny, like we are biased against ourselves, we judge ourselves more harshly. We also judge other women more harshly. This is actually backed by, by a lot of data. Women are harder on other women. So, so there was a great experiment out of Columbia, the Heidi Howard experiment, where they were looking at the cvs, they were exactly the same. And some of them were titled Heidi and some of them were titled Howard. Exact same, exact same words. And when people were looking at it, would you want to employ this one or this one? And they were described as being ambitious and competitive. When it was Howard, like, yeah, he sounds like a good guy to have on the team. When it was Heidi, it's like, oh, I don't want to have her ambitious and competitive. So just recognizing we can be hard on ourselves. And so I think I have done a lot of work with women business owners, women leaders, entrepreneurs over the years and I wrote about this in my prior book called you've got this. I've had to say so many Times you've got this, go for it, back yourself, take the risk. Don't want, don't wait until you know exactly what you're doing. Do not wait until you are 100% confident. Just do it and give yourself permission to figure it out as you go along. And I really have to, I don't have to say that as much to men.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad we went there. Obviously that was a little, and that's.

[Margie Worrell]

Not critical by the way. That is not critical of men. I'm often like, do more of what he does because hey, it's working for him.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me go straight to a topic I hear all the time. I mean, very specific. Courage gap. I work with a lot of marketing consultants, marketing agencies. We, we do training, we license our methodologies to them. And one of the things I have to work on the most right from the beginning is getting them to understand they need to raise their prices. And that's one that a lot of businesses, you know, they sit in front of a client and they're like, will they pay me? Can I say this? And sometimes I just say, look, just do it. Just like next time you have a sales call, double your price and just say it and see what happens. Like what could happen. Right. They could say no or they, or you got a really, you know, high paying client and boy, do they struggle with that.

[Margie Worrell]

Do you notice a gender difference?

[Marketing Announcer]

Not as much as you'd think.

[Margie Worrell]

Okay.

[Jon Jantz]

Actually in that. But again, and we do, I mean we probably at least 50% of the folks that join our program are women. And so I don't see that so much. But they all undercharge and there's really, and I think it's, it goes to this. Am I, I don't even think it's like, will I get rejected? It's am I worth it? So how do you get through that gap?

[Margie Worrell]

So am I worth it? I think it's, it's such a big question to ask ourselves. And what is my worth? What is my value? And am I going to ask more than the market can bear? And I'm like, well the only way you find that out is by risking asking for more than the market can bear. And you're like, okay, well they didn't, you know, they weren't willing to pay 50k. Okay, well how's 40, you know, but if you're asking 20, then you're not going to get 30 or 40. So. But I do think being willing to ask for what you really think you're worth. And being clear here too, what is this commercially worth to them? Because often we think about, oh, am I worth $30,000? Well, I'm like, man, if the outcomes people get, I do a lot of work with, you know, CEOs and C suite leaders. I'm like, if working with me as a coach could increase your bottom line by half a million bucks or a million or 5 million, or avoid you making a mistake, because that could cost you way more than that, then, man, you know, yeah, that's worth 50k. So. So I think, you know, making sure you're thinking about not in terms of what you think you're worth, but what is this worth to them too?

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah. And I have used that to. To really give people a posture too.

[Marketing Announcer]

Is.

[Jon Jantz]

Is really. If you're going back and reviewing results and you can actually say, oh, I doubled their business, you know, what am I only asking X for? You know, it really gets a lot easier, you know, with that data.

[Marketing Announcer]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like, you know, what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses, helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, visit DTM World/GROW and request a free consultation. That's DTM World/GROW.

[Jon Jantz]

Do you have some habits you talk about? Courage muscles. Do you have some habits or daily exercises that you really seem to work to help people build that courage muscle?

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. Well, I think firstly is doing more of whatever helps you bring your best, bravest self to whatever challenges and whatever, you know, goals that you've got. And I think that can cross over multiple realms. I think of it as physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. In terms of what is it that helps you physically have the energy so that you're not exhausted because it's hard to climb a mountain and be brave. If you're just exhausted mentally, are you focused on the highest leverage things and. Or are you overwhelmed? You know, you don't even know which way to look. So that is crucial emotionally. What is it that helps you just process through the stress that you've got on and navigate some of those emotions that actually get in the way of you doing the very things you could do. And I think self doubt is a really big one. And so, you know, for me, you know, I start my day every day with some exercise. I read something, I write down, what are my number one, my top, like three to five goals I want to get done today and who is it I need to be today? And you know, for me, at a spiritual level. And I say that without being religious or anything like that. Just being, you know, what is it that I feel is going to make the biggest mark and it's going to make the biggest impact for those I'm here to serve today that aligns with my core values and what gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. And so I think all of those things when we're kind of regularly doing small little things like those daily habits, whether, you know, whether it's journaling as exercising, connecting in with people that can hold you to account and bring out your vest, putting, putting some guardrails around those who don't, those small little things. But, you know, a question I often ask myself is, what would I do if I was being brave today? It's like, you know what, I would reach out to John and I would say, hey, John, hey, let's have coffee, you know, or, hey, John, you know, can I be on your podcast? Not that that's how this came to be, but, but, but put yourself out there, like, ask yourself, what would I do today if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind, because courage is a muscle we have to put in the.

[Jon Jantz]

Reps. All right, I'm going to put you in coaching mode here. I am a salesperson, and I'm going to call on what could be the biggest account, you know, of my life. And I'm really afraid of getting rejected. How would you help me reframe, oh, beautiful one?

[Margie Worrell]

I would start with principle one in the courage gap. Focus on what you want and not on what you fear. So if you're terrified of being rejected, oh, my gosh, I hope I make this. Oh, what if I don't? Oh, my gosh, it's gonna be so I'll feel terrible, but you're putting all your energy into the outcome you don't want. It's like praying for what you don't want to happen. And what, and, and, and what you focus on expands. So I would be like one, what does success look like? Visualize the best possible outcome. I walk out of there, I've landed it. And why is, why is that great? Well, not only because it's good for you, but how is this serve them? So make sure it's not just about you, but how is this in service of something bigger than just you? Yeah, you, great to get the commission, great to get the contract, great for whatever comes for it. But also focus on why is this good not just for you, but for them. So focus on that. Win. Win. And what is your highest intention here? Yeah, you want to get it, but not just for your sake. And I think just getting that real clarity of your positive outcome. Because if you are not committed and clear in the positive outcome you want to create fear is going to fill the void. And so your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. And if all you're doing is going, oh, I'm terrified I'm going to be rejected, I'm like, stop. I would even have someone write it down. Write down what does wild success look like going into this meeting. Write down why this is good not just for you, but why is this good for them. What is the value that you want to bring? Write down what is the mindset, the belief that I need to operate from, that I have everything it takes, that I'm fully worthy and deserving. And why not me? Because if it's not me, it's going to be John, so why not me? And, and, and then ground yourself in the values that define who you want to be and go into that from that place of being worthy of, of having integrity, of being brave, of being generous, of being someone that makes others lives better. And, and when you're going in, and then, and then I would finally say shift your posture, take a big deep breath, breathe in courage. Breathe out fear and stand tall. Hold your shoulders back. Because our physiology impacts our psychology.

[Jon Jantz]

So there's one of the things I've noticed this first quarter, maybe we're turning the corner, I hope so. But there's a lot of fear based just in unknown right now. Geopolitical things, economic things, and that has a tendency to make people sort of freeze. How do you get people through the unknown? You know, it's like, well, I don't I don't know what's going to happen. So how do I act? Courageously.

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. And when there is a lot of uncertainty, it innately triggers anxiety because we all like certainty. Our brains are wired to make change.

[Jon Jantz]

That's the only thing we hate.

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. To make plans on a future that we can predict with some level of confidence. And right now, people go, I don't know how much confidence I have in my prediction abilities. Right. The future has got a lot of unknowns. It's very volatile. It's very unpredictable. But here's what I say to people all the time. There's always been uncertainty. There will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you're going to get left behind, and you're going to be in the dust of those who are taking action amid the unknowns. But this isn't about being reckless. It's about going. What's my best guess here? How do I manage potential downsides? I'm not betting the family farm on a, you know, a racehorse, but I'm going. Okay, let me take a few steps forward here. Quickly reassess. Is this working? Not working. What am I learning? And shorten those learning cycles. Because as they say in battle, it is safer to run left or right in the fog of battle in gunfire than it is to stand still. Because when you're standing still, you're not getting any information, you're not getting any feedback. But when you're in motion, oh, okay, you know, this is working. This isn't working. You're getting something that's going to put you in a better position as there is more certainty over time. So to anyone listening to this and you're holding back, you're like, do I, don't I? It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Sometimes it can be incremental. But what's something you can do today that's moving you forward?

[Jon Jantz]

Awesome. Well, Margie, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. Is there someplace you'd invite people to connect with you and obviously find out more about the Courage Gap?

[Margie Worrell]

Yeah. Thanks, John. Well, you can head over to my website, Maggie worrell.com and the courage Gap. I have a whole page on there that and a video, et cetera, tells you about it. But you can also get it on Amazon and where good books are sold. And I also encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn and Insta and social media. I'm everywhere under my name.

[Jon Jantz]

All right, awesome. Again, appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

[Margie Worrell]

Awesome. Thanks, John.

[Marketing Announcer]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Growing.