Build a Brand Gen Z Wants to Work (and Buy) From

Summary

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast: "Build a Brand Gen Z Wants to Work (and Buy) From"

Host: Jon Chance
Guest: Len Silverman
Release Date: March 27, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host Jon Chance welcomes seasoned marketer and author Len Silverman. With over three decades of marketing experience and the founder of a seven-figure company, Len brings valuable insights into understanding and engaging Generation Z (Gen Z) both as employees and consumers. His recent book, "Mesh: Aligning the Personal Brand of Gen Z with Your Company Culture," serves as the foundation for their in-depth discussion on building brands that resonate with the youngest workforce and customer base.

---

Understanding Gen Z

Len begins by defining Gen Z, highlighting their birth years from 1997 onwards, making them approximately 13 to 28 years old at the time of the interview. He emphasizes that Gen Z has grown up during significant economic downturns, such as the 2008-2009 financial crisis, and global events like the COVID-19 pandemic. These experiences, coupled with their lifelong exposure to digital technology, have shaped their unique perspectives on work and life.

Len Silverman [03:23]:
"They experienced their economic downturn in 0809 and watched what happened to their parents who maybe thought they had safe jobs. They saw the whole country shut down for Covid. They obviously grew up with phones in their hands for the most part. So their access to information and their view of the world is so much broader than mine was at that same age."

---

Challenging Common Stereotypes

Jon and Len address prevalent stereotypes about Gen Z in the workplace. Contrary to the common belief that Gen Zers are lazy or unwilling to work hard, Len shares his observations that this generation is entrepreneurial, seeks mentorship, and is eager to expand their skill sets.

Jon Chance [04:43]:
"What are some of the common stereotypes that folks are saying, 'Hey, I don't get it because Gen Z is just lazy or they don't want to work hard?'"

Len Silverman [05:26]:
"I hear the most is, oh, they're lazy, they don't want to work. They ghost you. You know, you'll not only set up an interview, but sometimes you'll actually hire them and they don't show up the first day of work."

These stereotypes often stem from differences in communication styles and workplace expectations. Len stresses the importance of understanding Gen Z's desire for mentorship and professional growth, which are critical for effective engagement.

---

Attracting and Retaining Gen Z Employees

To successfully attract and retain Gen Z employees, companies must adapt their hiring practices and workplace culture. Len emphasizes the need for transparency, manageable application processes, and alignment between a company's brand and its internal culture.

Len Silverman [07:59]:
"If I was a younger employee just starting out, I'd be looking at companies very differently. I would be looking at kind of the pre-application process, what kind of brand they're positioning themselves with out in the marketplace."

Companies should conduct internal audits to ensure their brand and culture genuinely reflect their values, avoiding superficial attempts to appeal to Gen Z. Authenticity is key, as Gen Zers are quick to identify and disengage from businesses that don't align with their expectations.

Len Silverman [10:32]:
"For those companies that are serious about this, there's pre-work that needs to be done. You need a quick audit to make sure that your experience and your brand as a company are what you think that they are."

---

Aligning Company Culture and Branding

Aligning company culture with Gen Z's values is essential for both employee satisfaction and customer loyalty. Len discusses the concept of the "employee journey" and its close relationship with the "customer journey." Ensuring consistency in messaging and actions across both areas fosters trust and loyalty.

Len Silverman [15:19]:
"The employee journey and the customer journey are so closely related. Early in that process, it doesn't matter if you're positioning your brand for employees or for customers. That voice should be the same."

He advises companies to establish clear content pillars and maintain a balanced focus on various aspects of their brand, such as environmental responsibility and community impact, ensuring that their actions consistently support their communicated values.

---

Marketing to Gen Z Consumers

Beyond employment, Gen Z represents a significant and growing consumer market. Len explains that the same principles used to attract Gen Z employees apply to marketing to Gen Z consumers. Brands must communicate authentically and align their daily operations with the values they promote to avoid dissonance that can lead to loss of trust.

Jon Chance [15:04]:
"We've spent most of our time talking about employing the generation, but there's a lot of them that could be customers too. Would a similar kind of brand alignment apply to your marketing messaging?"

Len Silverman [15:19]:
"If I were them, I'd be looking at companies very differently... I think that to help Gen Z sort of understand and identify those companies that are clearly trying to make a connection with them will make it a lot easier."

---

Common Mistakes Companies Make

Len highlights common pitfalls companies encounter when attempting to align with Gen Z, such as superficial DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) initiatives that do not genuinely reflect the company's culture. He uses Tractor Supply as an example of a company that faced backlash after pushing DEI initiatives without aligning them with their core values.

Len Silverman [17:03]:
"If you're doing these kinds of things, if you are looking to use pronouns with all of your employees, just make sure that that absolutely aligns with the company you are and you're not simply doing that to try to placate Gen Z."

To avoid these mistakes, companies must ensure that their efforts to appeal to Gen Z are authentic and deeply rooted in their organizational culture.

---

Practical Advice for Companies

Len offers actionable strategies for companies aiming to attract and retain Gen Z talent:

1. Conduct Thorough Audits: Assess whether the company's external brand aligns with its internal culture.
2. Streamline Hiring Processes: Make application processes transparent and manageable to prevent Gen Z candidates from disengaging.
3. Foster Mentorship: Implement mentorship programs tailored to Gen Z's desire for professional growth and skill development.
4. Communicate Clearly: Maintain consistency in messaging across employee and customer interactions to build trust.
5. Embrace Authenticity: Ensure that any initiatives or values promoted are genuinely reflected in daily operations and corporate behavior.

Len Silverman [20:03]:
"We do it this way, and this is why we do it this way. That's the most important thing for this generation. They want to understand why."

Additionally, Len emphasizes the importance of setting realistic content pillars to avoid overcommitting to causes that may not align perfectly with the company's primary objectives or capabilities.

---

Conclusion

In wrapping up the conversation, Jon and Len reflect on the evolving dynamics of workplace generations and the continuous need for adaptation. Len encourages companies to stay true to their core values while embracing the unique qualities Gen Z brings to the workforce and consumer base.

Len Silverman [21:14]:
"It's a growing workforce. We have got to figure out how to make this work for everybody."

For listeners interested in delving deeper, Len directs them to his website for more information about his work and his book, "Mesh."

Len Silverman [21:26]:
"The easiest place to go is LenSilverman.com."

---

Key Takeaways

• Authenticity is Crucial: Gen Z values genuine alignment between a company's brand and its internal culture.
• Mentorship and Growth: Providing clear opportunities for professional development is essential for attracting Gen Z talent.
• Streamlined Processes: Simplifying hiring and application processes can prevent disengagement from potential Gen Z employees.
• Consistent Messaging: Aligning employee and customer branding efforts builds trust and loyalty among Gen Z.
• Avoid Superficial Initiatives: Companies must ensure that their efforts to align with Gen Z are deeply rooted in their culture to avoid backlash and mistrust.

By understanding and implementing these strategies, businesses can effectively engage Gen Z, fostering a workplace and customer base that supports sustained growth and innovation.

---

Connect with Len Silverman:
Visit LenSilverman.com to learn more about his work and his book, "Mesh: Aligning the Personal Brand of Gen Z with Your Company Culture."

Transcript

[Marketing Expert]

Let me ask you a few things. Do you feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.

[Jon Chance]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is Jon Chance and my guest today is Len Silverman. Len has over 30 years of experience in marketing his own a seven figure company with dozens of employees in multiple states. As a former Learning center owner, he has seen Gen Z grow up and has gotten to know the generation and what makes them tick. So maybe that's why he wrote a book called Mesh Aligning the personal brand of Gen Z with your company culture. So Len, welcome to the show.

[Len Silverman]

Thank you. Appreciate you having me. Kong.

[Jon Chance]

So Gen Z is, as I recall, something like 13 to 28 years old now. Is that who we're talking about?

[Len Silverman]

Yeah, pretty much. I look at 1997 as the beginning of that group. So yeah.

[Jon Chance]

Okay, so the personal brand of Gen Z, what is that?

[Len Silverman]

So, you know, a lot of people these days are talking about personal branding. So I thought it'd be really nice to sort of combine that with things that I'm hearing about Gen Z on the street. But just to give you a little bit of a frame around this, I started in the learning center business in 2004. So at that point Gen Z was 7 years old and I owned learning centers for 21 years. So basically I have seen these kids grow up and I call them kids. Obviously some of them are young adults. But more and more, as I talk to business owners and leaders I've been hearing stories about, oh, they're so hard to work with and I can't figure them out. And Basically, some people are saying that they're kind of washing their hands a bit and that, that really was disappointing to me. And I thought, well, the first thing is you've got to understand Gen Z. And I'm not saying that you as a company have to completely change to meet them where they are, but I'm a big believer that you need to understand your customers, you need to understand your constituents, and in this case, you need to understand your potential employees. So I go into a lot of depth in terms of why the generation Gen Z is the way they are. You know, you can't paint anyone with a broad brush. So they're, they're obviously not all the same.

[Marketing Expert]

Sure.

[Len Silverman]

But they, you know, they experienced their economic downturn in 0809 and watch what happened to their parents who maybe thought they had safe jobs. They saw the whole country shut down for Covid. They obviously grew up with phones in their hands for the most part. So their access to information and their view of the world so much broader than mine was at that same age that I think their perspectives on working and being a part of a company are very different than my generation Gen X was when we were first coming out. Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

And I, I think every, it's interesting. I've read some, you know, society or societal studies on, you know, generations and, you know, a lot of it comes from what their parents experienced. You know, that's what they experienced as they were coming up. Same with, you know, I, I was born in the 60s. I mean, so my parents were, you know, post World War II. And you know, it really has a lot of, of, you know, influence. But from a, from a workplace standpoint particularly, you know, what are some of the common. Probably stereotypes is the best word, but you know, that, that, that, you know, folks are saying, hey, I don't get it because X. Yeah, probably the one.

[Len Silverman]

I hear the most is, oh, they're lazy, they, they don't want to work. They ghost you. You know, you'll not only set up an interview, but sometimes you'll actually hire them and they don't show up the first day of work. So those are some of the common things that I hear. I also hear really quite a lot about. And first of all, I do want to preface this by saying, I'm not saying this, these are the things I'm hearing, but that they're, they're kind of uppity that they will, they will sit in a meeting with senior executives and chime in like they have an equal seat at the table, which is an anathema to baby boomers and Gen Xers. We, we just frankly don't get that.

[Jon Chance]

Not going to turn this into a comedy routine. But I could. So, so who, who do you feel, I mean, on the surface it's, you wrote this for maybe people like me that are hiring, you know, folks. Right, right. But, but I think there's kind of a broader audience for this, isn't there?

[Len Silverman]

What I really, the people that I'm really trying to get to pay attention to this would be folks who are in a position where they are frequently hiring and need to understand that they are going to have to make some changes or adaptations in their company to work with this generation, which now is more than 20% of the workforce. And obviously it's only going to continue to grow because these guys are becoming more of the age tour. So the old ways of doing things are not necessarily going to work. And I'll give you a couple of brainstorms. When I started working and this was probably the same for you, John. We had mentors and they maybe didn't call themselves mentors. I had people who would grab my shoulder and say, len, we don't do this. You don't do this in the office. If you're in a meeting with my boss, you don't talk. You know, those were things that I was told. And in a lot of ways I think that the folks that I've met with are almost a little afraid to have those kinds of conversations. But I will tell you that Gen Z craves mentorship. It has to be positioned the right way for them. They have a different way of speaking and being mentored than we did, but they still want that kind of tutelage. The main thing is they want opportunities. I found them to be extremely entrepreneurial and that's whether they're doing their own thing or within an organization. They're basically doing what we call skill stacking. They just want to grow their own skill base, which means look for, you know, cross functional opportunities for them and ways for them to grow their own personal skill, which hopefully they'll continue to pay back to the company. But from their perspective, it also allows them to take those skills somewhere else. So that's another thing is you got to be aware your interaction with, with a Gen Z employee might be shorter than it used to be with, you know, someone Gen X, Gen Y.

[Jon Chance]

So if I'm a 24 year old looking for a new place to go work, would, would there be something in this book? For me there would.

[Len Silverman]

First of all we talk about and you're going to be very familiar with this. I know that you and I and a lot of other people have talked about the customer journey for a long time and I'm a big believer in it. I, I know that there are people who have discussed the employee journey, but I hadn't seen a whole lot where folks saw the interaction between a customer journey and an employee journey. To me they're kind of one in the same. And so if I was a younger employee just starting out, I'd be looking at companies very differently. I would be looking at kind of the, the pre application process, what kind of brand they're positioning themselves with out in the marketplace. You know, so if I get to know them, what are the things they're going to make me like and trust them? I would be actively looking for companies that are talking about the things that are important to me. I discuss those in the book. But I also give advice to the employer that some of the hoops you have to go through in today's world when you submit an application to a company are just not going to work anymore. So you've got to make it transparent quick. I'm not going to say easy, but at least it has to be manageable for the applicant. So I think that to help Gen Z sort of understand and identify those companies that are clearly trying to make a connection with them will make it a lot easier. So they don't do what I call crop dusting, which is going on and, and shooting out 40 or 50 resumes because that's, you know, that's very disheartening when you do that. So they can, they can spot things that I'm talking about in the book to identify those companies who are clearly making an outreach to them.

[Jon Chance]

So, you know, there was a day when, you know, this is a prestigious company, this is a big company, you know, they pay well. I mean those were like, that was like the checklist right now. It might be, hey, a lot of flexibility for time off. They, they give to causes. I believe in how much of that sort of balance of the brand is kind of just playing to who they're trying to attract. I mean, because the problem with brand and culture is it's kind of hard to fake it. You know, it usually comes out, you know, one way or another. So how much, you know, is a company, you know, this, this idea of aligning their brand, you know, how much of that is, is intentional, how much of that is just, hey, we're already doing this stuff we're just not communicating.

[Len Silverman]

In my opinion, it's very intentional. As a matter of fact, I just made a LinkedIn post about five minutes before we jumped on here and it talks about that kind of consistency that you could, you could talk about culture all day long, but at the end of the day, your culture will show itself through how you and your leaders represent your company on a daily basis. So from my perspective, for those companies that are serious about this, there's pre work that needs to be done. You know, you, you need a, you need a quick audit to make sure that your experience and your, your brand as a company are what you think that they are. Because otherwise you're going to keep having these glancing blows where gen Zers will try you out and they're pretty quick to discover whether you're fit or not. And they'll go find something else because they clearly have a work to live attitude versus a live to work attitude. So if it's, if it's not you, they'll go find some gig work until they're able to find the next full time job. Yeah, you know, so you, you really do need to look at your own internals and make sure that your company on a daily basis is what you think that it is. Monitor and manage that. Then go out there looking for that, that new employee base. Your retention will be much better.

[Marketing Expert]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know, what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, visit DTM World/GROW and request a free consultation. That's DTM World/GROW.

[Jon Chance]

You know, I wonder how much generations, whatever the, all the letters we apply to them, Millennials and Gen X's, I wonder how much they could learn from that because, you know, there was that, there was that kind of, they're just lazy, you know, they don't want to work hard, you know, and some of it was like, no, they just want to have a life. And you know, here I am working 80 hours a week, you know, thinking that that's like the, the way. And if they don't want to do that, then like they're wrong. So I mean, I wonder how much the, you know, the new workplace, the modern workplace in the world could actually maybe gain from a different mindset.

[Len Silverman]

You know, I, I remember clearly. I can't remember if I talk about this story in the book or not, but I remember clearly one of the very first corporate jobs that I got. I'd been in the job maybe six months and my boss calls me in his office and he says, Len, I gotta tell you, I really appreciate your work ethic. And I had no idea what he was talking about. He said, you come in on time when you go to lunch, you only take an hour for lunch. And he said, I gotta tell you, I've worked with a number of people your age and it's very unusual. Okay. And I'm Gen X. Yeah. So I don't think what we're talking about now is anything totally new. I think every older generation way kind of thinks the younger generation is a bunch of screw ups, which, you know, clearly they're not. But what's different today is I think we all talk more openly. I think that the ability to have these kinds of conversations are, are so much easier than they used to be. So now is a great time for employers to pick up on.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah.

[Len Silverman]

And realize, you know, again, this is a growing workforce. We have got to figure out how to make this work for everybody. And you mentioned work life balance is going to be incredibly important for this generation. They're going to look for, you know, what kind of community impact you're having. So there are things that you could pay attention to and kind of put in place again before you go out there full throatedly trying to hire these younger people.

[Jon Chance]

You know, we've, we've spent most of our time talking about employing the generation, but there's a lot of them that could be customers too. Right. And so would a similar kind of brand alignment, you know, apply to your marketing messaging?

[Len Silverman]

Which is precisely, and I'm glad you brought that up. It's precisely why I think that the employee journey and the customer journey are so closely related. Because early in that process, it doesn't matter if you're positioning your brand for employees or for customers. That voice should be the same.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah.

[Len Silverman]

And so I do think that this has a huge impact if you're going after a Gen Z consumer base. The book clearly lays out what's important to them and can really help a company to kind of align not just their communication, but more importantly, what they're doing every day. Right. With what Gen Z is looking for.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah, there's a, there's a, certainly a growing trend in marketing circles of this idea of employer branding, you know, where you're, you know, the, the idea that you're a cool company to work for is a pretty good marketing message too.

[Len Silverman]

I think it is. Yeah. I mean, we, we want to be the cool kids. And it, it's, it's good to work for a company that you could be proud of because, as you know, I mean, you've got, you know, the marketing hourglass. And bottom of the hourglass is basically repeat and refer, which is retention and being an advocate for your company out in the marketplace to find other employees. So our end goal is really the same, and that's to convert these employee customers into advocates for our, for our business.

[Jon Chance]

So I think a lot of companies, whether they wanted to or not, you know, found that as a practical nature, we're not going to find the people that we want if we don't kind of realign our brand. What are some of the mistakes? You see people that are, that are actually trying to change, you know, what has either been their perception or their reality. What are some mistakes in trying to kind of adapt and align with this new generation?

[Len Silverman]

You know, it's, it's hard to say if it's a mistake or not, because I think that the, the jury's still out a little bit. But, you know, we've read in the press about DEI initiatives and, you know, right down the street for me, we have Tractor Supply as an example, and they had initiated DEI as a department, and then they pulled back on that because they were getting pushback from their customer base. So were they doing that in order to grow sales or were they doing that in order to attract this younger generation? I don't know which it is. But again, it ultimately turned out to be a misalignment with their company culture. So I, I would say if you're doing these kinds of things, if you are looking to use pronouns with all of your employees, just make sure that that absolutely aligns with the company. You are. And you're not simply doing that to try to placate Gen Z. Does that make sense?

[Jon Chance]

Yeah, 100%.

[Len Silverman]

Those are the mistakes that I see. If you're genuine, you're fine.

[Jon Chance]

Well, and I think you go to really, the, the root of all of this is be who you are. Is probably going to. Now, are there some things that you can do to. Where I see people making a mistake is they have that alignment, but they just don't communicate right. You know, it's like, well, of course we do that. That's, you know, that's the right thing to do, you know, as opposed to. But then can you take that too far? And, you know, you see companies promoting their environmental, you know, consciousness and, you know, it's like you make Styrofoam, you know, it's like.

[Len Silverman]

But they're aware of it.

[Jon Chance]

So. So, you know, how far is too far?

[Len Silverman]

You know, I think that is a very interesting point. And, and I think that is for each company and possibly its own board of directors and its customers and its employees to kind of decide for themselves. But, you know, again, in marketing, we talk about content pillars. And I think for a company like we're talking about, if I were them, I would come up with three or four areas that I would want to talk about, and then I would weight them. So if environmental issues are important, but maybe they're not the most important thing, I might spend 10 to 15% of my time talking about that. And that would be internal conversations first to make sure that we do have that right mix that feels. Feels right.

[Jon Chance]

How would you advise a company that. That, you know, wants to realign their brand? But, you know, there, there's also, it's like, here's our culture and we believe it and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna stay true to it. How does somebody like that attract. So they attract folks that want a job. How do they get that? How do they turn them into a players? You know, they may be a little bit misaligned initially, but is there a way to then say, look, here's how we do it here, here's why we do it that way. And some will fall off, but some will turn into a players.

[Len Silverman]

You hit the nail on the head. We do it this way, and this is why we do it this way. That's the most important thing for this generation. They want to understand why. And if you've established the culture that I think we're both talking about, then the whys are going to be there. And the other thing, I'll go back to the mentorship thing. Again, I talk about this in the book. I think it's critical for these new employees to. You could set up a buddy. It could be a peer mentor, it could be a leadership mentor, but someone who reinforces that message and helps that newer employee to shape how they're presenting themselves to align with the company. Most importantly, understanding why we're asking to do that. And it could be, hey, I've been on your social media and I got to tell you. And some of those things just don't really align with what. What we're doing. Let me tell you why. This is my customer.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah.

[Len Silverman]

And my customer doesn't really like to see that on social media. Oh, okay. Well, that becomes pretty clear.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah. All right, let's talk about abbreviations and punctuation now. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. We're not going to go there.

[Len Silverman]

It's dangerous stuff to talk.

[Jon Chance]

So. So, Len, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Where, where can. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work? But then obviously more about the book. Mesh.

[Len Silverman]

It is very simple. The easiest place to go is Len Silverman, which is l, e n silverman.com.

[Jon Chance]

Awesome. Well, great. It'll be interesting to see, you know, we're talking about Gen Z now. What's the next generation? What's going to be like their iteration? Right.

[Len Silverman]

Gen Alpha.

[Jon Chance]

That's what we're calling. We're going back.

[Len Silverman]

That's what we're calling.

[Jon Chance]

Okay. Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Hopefully we'll see you out there on the road someday soon.

[Len Silverman]

Awesome. Thanks, Ron.

[Marketing Expert]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like, you know, what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions, you're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Growing.