The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Episode Summary: "Give Your Marketing Strategy a Smart Upgrade"

Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Keith Lover (Founder/CEO of Atomic Elevator, creator of Ella, the AI marketing platform)
Date: November 7, 2025

Brief Overview

In this insightful episode, John Jantsch sits down with Keith Lover, a serial entrepreneur and marketing strategist, to unpack the power of "high definition marketing" and how AI can upgrade marketing strategies. They discuss the evolution from fuzzy, fragmented marketing to the clarifying precision of AI-enhanced frameworks, the role of Atomic Elevator’s AI platform Ella, and the newly announced partnership between Atomic Elevator and Duct Tape Marketing. The episode is rich with real-world examples, thought-provoking commentary, and practical guidance for anyone aiming to make their marketing smarter—not just faster.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining High Definition Marketing

• Fragmented Past to Clarity:
  Keith opens by explaining that marketing has historically involved different specialists each focusing on their "part of the elephant," resulting in a lack of cohesion.
  • "Marketing has historically been fuzzy... So some people, like a branding person looks at the marketing problem through their set of lens and the digital ads person looks at it through their lens." (Keith Lover, 00:51)
• Frameworks and Precision:
  The solution is to codify interconnected frameworks—customer, brand, value, journey—and define them with precision. This becomes "high definition" marketing: more pixels, more colors, more vibrancy.
• Role of AI:
  Keith credits AI with making it possible to manage, update, and leverage all these frameworks holistically and continuously, supporting marketers where manual effort would be overwhelming.
  • "One of the things that's radically changed this is AI's ability to come alongside and help us keep all those frameworks in mind at all times." (Keith Lover, 02:49)

2. How Ella Differs from Other AI Tools

• Beyond Automation to Augmentation:
  Keith distinguishes Ella from typical AI tools like ChatGPT. Rather than simply automating for the sake of volume, Ella’s core objective is elevating the quality of marketing work.
  • "Most AI tools have an objective of trying to automate. And we said, automation just produces more, and more is often more noise, more junk... We started with an objective of producing better." (Keith Lover, 03:59)
• Trained for Contextual Excellence:
  Ella is specifically trained on marketing frameworks and can be "taught" about individual brands with extensive instructions. This makes her outputs unique and tuned rather than generic and "average."
  • "We trained it on these specific frameworks and the business rules that supported it. And then we let marketers actually teach Ella about each individual brand with thousands of pages of instructions..." (Keith Lover, 04:37)

3. Real-World Success Story: Red Ox Bags

• Transformational Impact:
  Keith shares a favorite case where Ella, combined with a CMO’s expertise, reinvigorated a longstanding brand, redefining their assets and increasing conversion rates by 40%, with a 20% boost in growth.
  • "This wouldn't have happened. We know it because for 10 years he'd been stuck if it hadn't been for Ella. So it works." (Keith Lover, 07:00)
• John’s Perspective on Messaging:
  John points out that premium brands especially benefit from precise messaging—generic or diluted language (the "average" effect) puts them at risk of losing market distinctiveness.

4. Strategy Before Technology

• Sticking to Fundamentals in an AI Era:
  John reiterates his well-known mantra, "strategy before tactics," now updated as strategy before technology—highlighting the danger of chasing the latest AI tools as superficial solutions.
  • "With the shifts going on in AI, I find myself saying same idea. But now people are just grabbing the technology tools as tactics. And so strategy before technology certainly is something that is an evolution, I guess, of that same idea." (John Jantsch, 08:15)
• The New Collaboration:
  They announce the Duct Tape Marketing and Atomic Elevator partnership, merging proven strategic frameworks with AI-driven execution, aiming to ensure AI tools amplify—not replace—real strategic thinking.

5. Uplifting Both Novices and Experts

• Ella as a 'Team Member' and Ongoing Educator:
  John and Keith stress that Ella is designed not just as a tool, but as an embedded team member able to upskill users, both rookies and seasoned marketers, by incorporating the wisdom of an "internal brain trust" of top marketers.

  • "We had an agency that shared back with us... after using Ella... their team is doing twice as good a marketing in six months after using Ella than before." (Keith Lover, 13:56)

• Training & Upskilling as a Core Benefit:
  Keith notes that Ella's greatest value to agencies is "upskilling" their whole team, consistently and dynamically, with every interaction.

  • "We're already seeing... this tool will be like installing a very trained team member in the organization that's actually going to up level whoever's there today as well." (John Jantsch, 12:50)

6. Looking Ahead: The Future of AI in Marketing

• Continuous Learning & Integration:
  Keith shares that Atomic Elevator’s roadmap includes keeping Ella up-to-date with evolving marketing tactics, deepening platform integrations, and expanding into sales enablement.
  • "We want Ella to continue to be smarter... also, we’re committed to investing in integration of these tools." (Keith Lover, 16:58)
• Sales-Marketing Convergence:
  AI is positioned as bridging sales and marketing, ensuring insights flow freely and execution stays tightly aligned.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Clarity in Marketing:
  "What we did was simply codify that. So step one is to say these are the frameworks, and then step two is...define them with precision. So we think that's what gives you the high definition." (Keith Lover, 01:17)

• On AI’s Role in Quality vs. Quantity:
  "Automation just produces more and more is often more noise, more junk, and we don't think the world needs more. We started with an objective of producing better." (Keith Lover, 03:59)

• On the Real ROI of Ella:
  "Every visitor that's coming to that landing page is converting at a 40% greater rate. Shopping cart value is significantly higher...if it hadn't been for Ella. So it works." (Keith Lover, 07:00)

• On Upskilling and Team Empowerment:
  "Their team is doing twice as good a marketing in six months after using Ella than before. And you know, that's really due to the brains and the generosity of others who said let's come behind and contribute this knowledge into a system." (Keith Lover, 13:56)

• On the Practical Value of AI:
  "I think every business in, I don't know, year, two years is going to really mainstream this idea of AI team members. It's going to be a part of how the world works and how, you know, we function today." (John Jantsch, 10:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40 – [Defining High Definition Marketing]
• 02:14 – [AI’s Role in Elevating Strategy]
• 03:13 – [How Ella Differs from ChatGPT and Other AI Tools]
• 05:45 – [Red Ox Case Study: AI-Driven Brand Transformation]
• 08:15 – [Strategy Before Technology & Announcement of Partnership]
• 11:38 – [Bridging the Gap Between Knowing and Doing]
• 12:50 – [Ella as an Upskilling Tool for Teams]
• 13:56 – [Experiences from Agencies Using Ella]
• 16:42 – [Keith and John Discuss the Future of Marketing AI]
• 18:25 – [Sales Enablement and Practical AI Integrations]
• 20:04 – [Final Invitation to Learn More at Atomic Elevator]

Conclusion

This episode provides a compelling, practical look at how marketing is evolving—blending foundational strategic principles with the transformative power of AI. Through real examples and honest discussion, John and Keith highlight that the future belongs to those who harness technology to amplify, not overshadow, smart strategy and human expertise. The Duct Tape Marketing and Atomic Elevator partnership signals a new era where businesses, agencies, and marketers can "install" a constantly upskilling brain into their teams—making marketing more impactful, accessible, and aligned with business growth.

For more information or to request a trial of Ella (including the special Duct Tape Marketing edition), visit AtomicElevator.com and mention the podcast.