Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves

Summary

Summary of "Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves" Episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Release Date: July 17, 2025
Host: John Chance
Guest: Bill Shander, Data Communications Expert and Author of "Stakeholder Whispering"

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Chance engages in a compelling conversation with Bill Shander, a seasoned data communications expert and the author of "Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask." With over 25 years of experience, Bill has collaborated with prestigious organizations like the United Nations, World Bank, and Deloitte to transform complex data into clear, actionable stories.

Understanding Data Communication

John Chance (01:03):
"Everyone these days has data, whether it's your sales data, your marketing data, your HR data... we're worried about shoving numbers at people."

Bill Shander emphasizes the importance of not just presenting data but communicating ideas effectively. He explains his role as helping organizations "tell stories with data as well as visualize that data in an impactful way" (02:18).

The Inspiration Behind "Stakeholder Whispering"

When asked about the motivation for writing his book, Bill reflects on decades of experience, stating that the challenge of effectively communicating with stakeholders has been a persistent issue:

Bill Shander (02:45):
"I've been looking at it for 30 years... It may be more important today because of AI. AI is an order taker, and we as humans need to discern what should be done."

He highlights how AI's rise underscores the need for human insight in guiding stakeholders beyond mere data presentation.

Order Taking vs. Strategic Guidance

A central theme of the episode is the distinction between order taking and strategic guidance. Bill introduces the concept of "stakeholder whispering," which involves asking the right questions to help stakeholders uncover their true needs.

Bill Shander (05:03):
"Our stakeholders don't know what they need, and our job is to guide them... it's like therapy."

He compares the process to conducting a therapy session, where asking the right questions helps stakeholders see their challenges from a new perspective.

Building Trust Through Questions

John delves deeper into the art of asking questions to build trust and lead stakeholders toward effective solutions.

John Chance (05:27):
"Let's think about insights instead of action."

Bill concurs, noting that trust is built when stakeholders realize you are genuinely interested in solving their problems, not just executing tasks.

Bill Shander (07:36):
"The only success I've had in my career is because I was good at the skills stakeholder whispering... I'm not here to sell you widgets. I'm here to solve your problems."

Active Listening and Cultural Influences

The conversation transitions to the importance of active listening and how cultural factors, such as different comfort levels with silence, can impact stakeholder interactions.

Bill Shander (08:28):
"Listen with your ears, not your brain... truly hear."

John adds a cultural dimension, comparing American discomfort with silence to the Japanese practice of allowing more thoughtful pauses.

Bill Shander (10:03):
"I have a chapter called 'Silence is Golden'... it's uncomfortable, but essential."

Common Pitfalls in Stakeholder Engagement

Bill outlines several common mistakes professionals make when engaging with stakeholders, emphasizing the need to move beyond mere task execution:

1. Being an Order Taker:
   Bill Shander (11:46):
   "Your job is not to execute tasks your boss tells you to do. Your job is to succeed and help your organization succeed."

2. Lack of Trust and Confidence:
   Engaging stakeholders requires confidence and trust-building, which can be challenging with difficult bosses or clients.

3. Subconscious Drivers:
   Recognizing that much of human behavior is driven by the subconscious is crucial for effective communication and strategy.

4. Overlooking Stakeholder Hierarchies:
   Bill Shander (14:08):
   "You are somebody else's stakeholder today... zoom in on those whose opinions and goals matter the most."

Balancing Organizational and Customer Goals

A critical discussion arises around balancing the need to satisfy supervisors while striving to enhance customer experiences.

John Chance (15:34):
"How do you balance keeping your job with creating a better experience for the customer?"

Bill Shander (15:58):
"Long term, if you serve the customer, you're not going to jeopardize your job... occasionally, it won't, and you might need to find a new boss."

Adapting to Remote and Hybrid Environments

The shift to remote and hybrid work models introduces new challenges in stakeholder communication. Bill acknowledges that while the principles remain the same, the lack of physical presence adds complexity.

Bill Shander (17:57):
"Communications is harder... body language and other cues disappear."

He emphasizes the importance of maintaining productive conversations through technology, ensuring that stakeholder interactions remain meaningful.

Practical Applications and Real-World Examples

Bill shares a practical example from his book where stakeholder whispering led to a significant shift in perspective. In a project involving data dashboards, the debate over whether to display rankings or actual scores highlighted the value of open-ended questioning over rigid adherence to traditional methods.

Bill Shander (19:46):
"It was a very open-ended conversation... the moment when she said, 'Yeah, I never saw it that way before. You're right,' was a win."

This anecdote illustrates how fostering open-mindedness can lead to more effective and truthful solutions.

Fostering a Culture of Whisperability

Towards the end of the episode, Bill discusses the importance of creating organizational cultures that support whisperability—environments where honest, strategic dialogue is encouraged.

Bill Shander (17:43):
"Companies need to develop cultures of whisperability... I've worked for companies that were really not whisperable at all."

He advocates for transparency and open communication as foundational elements for successful stakeholder relationships.

Conclusion and Takeaways

In wrapping up, Bill emphasizes the necessity of strategic thinking over mere task execution, encouraging listeners to adopt a consultative approach in their professional interactions. By asking the right questions, actively listening, and fostering trust, professionals can transform their relationships with stakeholders and drive meaningful organizational success.

Bill Shander (16:27):
"Be strategic. Don't just execute on tasks."

---

Notable Quotes

1. Bill Shander on Data Communication:
   "I help people tell stories with data as well as visualize that data in an impactful way." (02:18)

2. Bill Shander on AI's Role:
   "AI is just going to do it. So it's even more important for that reason." (02:45)

3. Bill Shander on Stakeholder Whispering:
   "It's like therapy... someone comes to a therapist because they have an issue and they need help." (05:27)

4. Bill Shander on Active Listening:
   "Listen with your ears, not your brain. So really hear." (08:37)

5. Bill Shander on Organizational Culture:
   "Companies need to develop cultures of whisperability... I've worked for companies that were really not whisperable at all." (17:43)

Connect with Bill Shander

For more insights and to explore Bill Shander’s work, visit his website or connect with him on LinkedIn.

---

This summary captures the essence of the "Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves" episode, highlighting key discussions on effective data communication, building trust, strategic stakeholder engagement, and fostering supportive organizational cultures.

Transcript

[Testimonial Speaker]

I was like this. I found it. I found it. This is what I've been looking for, I can honestly say has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It's changed the results that I'm seeing. It's changed my engagement with clients. It's changed my engagement with the team. I couldn't be happier, honestly. It's the best investment I ever made.

[Duct Tape Marketing Announcer]

What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing Certification intensive program for fractional CMOs, marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You can choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM World Scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It's time to transform your approach. Book your call today. DTM World slash scale.

[John Chance]

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast.

[Bill Shander]

This is John Chance, and my guest.

[John Chance]

Today is Bill Shander. He's a data communications expert, information designer, and founder of Beehive Media. Over 25 years of experience, Bill has helped leading organizations including United Nations, World bank and Deloitte, turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. We're going to talk about his latest book today, Stakeholder Whispering. Uncover what people need before doing what they ask.

[Bill Shander]

So, Bill, welcome to the show.

Thank you, John. I'm really happy to be here.

[John Chance]

So I just. Sometimes people have things in their bios that I have to ask about. So what does a data communication expert do?

[Bill Shander]

That's a good question. So, you know, everybody these days has data, Whether it's your sales data, your marketing data, your HR data. Everybody has data. We're always packaging it up in PowerPoint presentations to present to our bosses or reports for the board or whoever. And people don't really do a very good job of it either, because they're not really thinking about communicating ideas. They're worried about shoving numbers at people. And so I help people tell stories with data as well as visualize that data in an impactful way.

[John Chance]

Yeah, and I think there's probably a lot of people, myself included, that I want to hear the story, like, what does this data mean? You know, rather than just saying, oh, look, we got this much traffic. Okay, is that good? Is that bad?

[Bill Shander]

Exactly. How many clicks do is good? Are clicks even useful? We don't know.

[John Chance]

So what inspired you to write the book? I mean, is there something going on today, you know, in the business world that you think that makes this idea more critical?

[Bill Shander]

That's a good question. I don't know if today it's more critical in that this has always been an issue. Honestly, I've been looking at it for 30 years and took me a long time to realize that this is the thing. I've been thinking about doing a book for a long time and this was finally the idea, the nugget that said, yes, this must be done. It's been an issue that's been around forever. Is it more important today than ever? I would say maybe possibly because of AI. I mean, okay, we're already talking about AI. You know, it's 20, 25, of course you have to. But honestly, you know, when you ask AI to do something, it just does it. AI is an order taker and we as humans, what can we do better than AI today? Maybe we can still discern, well, what really should be done and maybe we can ask a follow up questions and all the kinds of things that I talk about in the book that we have to do in order to make sure we're delivering against the right tasks. AI is just going to do it. So it's even more important for that reason.

[John Chance]

You know, it's interesting. I mean, I think you can make a case for being more important today and in some ways because what you mentioned, AI actually allows us to crunch a lot more data than we ever would have been able to in some cases. So, so we certainly have that. Even the smallest of companies have access now to big crunching. But I think also I noticed a lot of people, stakeholders included, you know, have much shorter attention spans. And so, you know, that 27 page PowerPoint deck, you know, can be condensed into a story or a metaphor, you know, that might actually be a better way to present the information.

[Bill Shander]

That's it. And so stakeholder whispering is, you know, the basic idea is your stakeholders ask you to do things based on their automated response. How do we usually do it? Well, we usually, we put it to 27 page PowerPoint deck together and the problem is to what you said, you know, first of all, tension spans are shrinking. A hundred other reasons why that may not be the best solution. But on top of that, like, I mean they don't even know what they need. They're just gonna go with the automated response. And so our job as workers, and it doesn't matter what role you're in, if it's a marketing, great, but HR people need this. IT people, finance, et cetera, Whatever we're working on, we need to question the ask, you know, question that automated response. Maybe it is a PowerPoint that's needed. Or maybe not to your point.

[John Chance]

So you mentioned the word order taking. You know, I actually, ironically, somebody just said this to me the other day. We have to, you know, we have to sell them what they want so that we can get the trust to sell them what they need. You've probably heard that before and you're kind of advocating for the idea that, no, we need to lead them to what they need and not, you know, and maybe use numbers to help do that. Talk a little more about that idea of beyond order taking.

[Bill Shander]

Yeah, and what, you know, what you just said is also true, right? Like, you have to, you do have to gain trust before you can lead them effectively. But yes, the fact is our stakeholders don't know what they need, and our job is to guide them. I often say it's like therapy. I have a whole chapter in the book about how to conduct a therapy session because it is very much like therapy. Someone comes to a therapist because they have an issue and they need help. And the therapist doesn't tell them what to do. They ask them questions. They say, well, how does that make you feel? Right. And. Right. And the questions allow you to look inside yourself and say, oh, wait, yeah, how does that make me feel? And so in work, okay, you know, we're launching a new product, marketing. Make us a brochure. Okay, you know, why would a brochure be better than an app or better than this, that or the other? Maybe we should do an app. And that, that introspective opportunity is what guides us down the road towards maybe another option. And, you know, when you're new, like, you're in a new role, new boss, whatever, you haven't gained that trust yet. Maybe all you do is you try one thing, one question, which is, you know, you know, the question could be, you know, how do we measure success? How are we going to know this is going to. When this has worked, how are we going to measure that? And just that one question. It's not going to get them all the way to some new way of thinking, maybe, but it's an initial ask. It's. It's at least one step beyond order taking. And then over time, you'll gain more trust and you'll be able to sort of expand on that guidance way of thinking about.

[John Chance]

That's an incredible technique in selling. You know, a lot of times people will come to us and say, I want so this and this. And if, if we have the posture or the courage to back up and say what you said, how will that. How Will we know that's successful? What would success look like? How are we going to measure that? Have you considered, I find a lot of times people will put their guard down then and like, oh, we're going to actually have a conversation about what we should be doing. I don't have to pretend I know what you know to tell you to do. And I find it very disarming in a sales conversation. I mean, you're building the level of being obnoxious. You know what I mean? But definitely to the level of saying, let's think about insights instead of action.

[Bill Shander]

Yeah. You're building trust the moment you do that, especially in the sales context when there's that built in lack of trust, in a way. And on top of that, you know what I found in my career? The only success I've had in my career is because I was good at the skills stakeholder whispering. And part of that is, no question, it's the consultative approach. I'm not here to sell you widgets. I'm here to solve your problems. I'm here to actually help you succeed. And when you really, honestly are doing that, then that includes. Yeah. That asking questions like that will lead to the right solution, not just a solution that puts dollars in my pocket.

[John Chance]

So of course you're implying that you have to actually care about getting a result. Right.

[Bill Shander]

You do. You have to care and you have to be curious. Those are two things that go sort of hand in hand.

[John Chance]

So. So we've covered one side of it, asking better questions. But what role does actually being a better listener play in this?

[Bill Shander]

Yeah, active listening is something. It's a phrase people talk about. But do you really listen? And what's interesting is, here we are.

[John Chance]

I'm thinking about the next question I'm going to ask.

[Bill Shander]

Of course, and you're an interviewer in this context, and you have to do that. Right. And when I'm talking to a client, I got to be taking notes. I got to be thinking about my next question response center. You can't avoid some of that. But at the same time, what I encourage people to do is, as best you can, within that reality, you try to really listen. And a friend of mine just recently told me his phrase is listen with your ears, not your brain. So really hear. And yeah, you're going to jot notes and you're going to. You're going to notice something, a little trigger word. You know, they said X. Put a little circle on that, whatever. But don't start formulating your next question as much as you can avoid it until they stop. Truly listen for that whole time. It's really hard to do. None of us could do it perfectly, but we can strive towards that ideal.

[John Chance]

I think it's a little bit cultural too. I think, you know, Americans are just like, we need noise. Like silence, you know, just kills us, right? I. I read a study the other day that said Americans, I think the average like silence before they become very uncomfortable is three seconds. And in Japan, it is very common for somebody to. To get asked a question and to literally wait for eight seconds before answering, to give it thought and to give it, you know, emotion. And I thought, you know, that's probably. I mean, most people, if I sat here for eight seconds of dead air, people were like, what's wrong? It's pretty interesting.

[Bill Shander]

So I have a chapter called Silence is Golden. And not only do I talk about that, but even the chapter, the book is put on the pages in a way that each page is just one sentence with silence all around it because it is that important, but it is uncomfortable.

It's true.

[John Chance]

I've taken. I've do some public speaking, and I've taken some training on that. And frequently a coach or something will.

[Bill Shander]

Say, no, let that pause, Let that sit.

[John Chance]

Let the audience digest that. Boy, when you're up on stage, it's like, can I do it? It's really hard. It's funny.

[Bill Shander]

It is that strategic performance which includes pauses, silence, pacing. I can speak really quickly and I can slow it down. And that has an effect on your audience for sure, whether it's an audience of one stakeholder or a room full of people.

Hey, small business owners, let me ask you a quick question. Is your marketing actually working for you or just working you over? If you're tired of chasing random tactics and want real clarity, it's time for a strategy first approach. At Duct Tape Marketing, we help you build a marketing system you own, one that fits your business and finally puts you in control. No more chaos, no more guesswork. Just a roadmap you trust powered by smart strategy. And let's face it, a little help from AI today. You ready to shift from overwhelm to confidence? Head over to DTM World/OwnIt. DTM World/OwnIt. So what are.

[John Chance]

Let's go with the negative. What are the common mistakes that people make? They might get the essence of this book and then charge in. What are some of the things that you see are pitfalls?

[Bill Shander]

I mean, you know, one of the biggest problems people face is that they think that their Job is to do what their boss tells them to do. And like, on paper, there's some truth to that. But. And clients, not just bosses, clients, investors, whoever your stakeholders are on, there's a broad range of them. Obviously your job is to execute on tasks for your organization, but it's not just to be that order taker that we talked about. So you have to. The most important thing I'm hoping people remember after reading the book is, is that they just need to do this, like, see the world in a new way. Your job is not to execute those tasks your boss tells you to do. Your job is to succeed and help your organization succeed. And that includes probing, you know, just asking, is this the right thing to be doing? Is this the right way to be doing that thing? So step number one, acknowledge that this is a thing and just try to do something about it. Another challenge is that some people are less whisperable than others. Right. Some bosses are not so into having these long conversations, like, you know, just do what I said. Right. And obviously that takes confidence to, to push back and really engage your stakeholders, which also, of course, takes trust, like we talked about. And I would say one of the third things is that, you know, it's. It's challenging for ourselves to sort of acknowledge to ourselves that essentially we're all walking around being driven by our subconscious. Literally all of our lives has driven by our subconscious. Tons of research shows us that we're not very good at reasoning. We're not really very good at deliberative thinking. We're just being driven by our subconscious. And so if we can just think about ways to tap into the subconscious. Yes. Even in work, it's like therapy, then we're all going to do a better job doing what we need to do for ourselves and our organizations. And it is for ourselves also, like, you're going to be promoted if you're the one who actually challenges the status quo, brings strategic thinking to the table and delivers against that. I know, duct tape marketing. The basic idea, right. Is be strategic. Don't just execute on tasks. Right. And so it's a very similar way of thinking.

[John Chance]

So I'm curious, have you ever considered.

[Bill Shander]

Children to be stakeholders?

They certainly could be, yeah.

[John Chance]

I mean, as I heard you say, as I heard you say that, just do what I said.

[Bill Shander]

I was like, that's probably not the, that's not the most current way of.

[John Chance]

Thinking about parenting, is it?

[Bill Shander]

Yeah. And actually brings up the fourth really important thing to be thinking about and a risk. You know, problem with this is that we don't recognize, acknowledge, define and prioritize all of the stakeholders. Right. So my boss tells me to do something, I do it. I am thinking my one stakeholder is my boss. No, your boss asked you to do that because his boss asked him and his boss her, you know, her boss. And so like it's four chains deep. And by the way, the board of directors is going to show this to their investors. Like the stakeholder list is actually this long and now you can't worry about all of them. But which ones are the two or the three whose opinions and actual goals really matter the most? Really zoom in on those ones and, you know, really make sure you understand their actual needs. If it's ultimately about the investors, even though your boss asked you to do it, they're the real stakeholder. So make sure you understand what they really need and make sure your boss understands that they're his stakeholder and so that they're involved in that stakeholder whispering with them.

[John Chance]

So that brings up an interesting quant. How do you balance the fact that the objective might be to create a better experience for the customer? However, what my boss is doing, my objective has to be to keep my job. Yeah. And so, so now I'm kind of torn between that. This isn't really the right approach for that stakeholder. But if I want to meet this objective. How do you balance that?

[Bill Shander]

Yeah, it's a million dollar question. It's a hard one. Right. So like some bosses, some people are not going to be very whisperable and yet could jeopardize your job with that person. Theoretically, I would say long term, most of the time, if you serve the customer, you're not going to jeopardize your job and everything's going to be for the better. Like you're going to be the one who gets promoted, you're going to take your boss's job. Right. Essentially.

[John Chance]

Should work that way. Right?

[Bill Shander]

Should. Occasionally it won't. And you know, you either are willing to face that, you know, that risk for the potential reward and. Or if your boss isn't whisperable, guess what I say, find a new boss. Right. Because that's really honestly the answer. You don't want to work in a culture like that.

Like so many.

[John Chance]

I would put this book into a leadership category and hopefully that doesn't. Hopefully it jives a little bit with what you're saying. Thinking.

[Bill Shander]

Yeah.

[John Chance]

It seems like most leadership ideas, you know, really start with the culture of the organization, don't they?

[Bill Shander]

They definitely do, yeah. And I have a Chapter at the end, which is called Some Love for My Stakeholders or Some Love for the Stakeholders. And I talk about. The fact is, first of all, I do. I love my stakeholders. And it's not just like blowing smoke. I've really enjoyed the work that I've done for the last 30 plus years. I've enjoyed working with the vast majority of my clients. And I really, I am curious and I do care and I want to help them. And so when I think, you know, when I talk to them in the book, I say, first of all, thank you for teaching me for all these years how to do what I do. But then I also do turn the page a little bit on them and say, okay, now you may be reading this because you're a middle manager. Guess what? You're somebody else's boss, aren't you? Also, you are somebody's stakeholder today, even though you're thinking of as the order taker. So how whisperable are you? And so companies need to develop the culture where they create, you know, cultures of whisperability. And I have some clients who have amazing cultures. They listen to me, they listen to their employees. It's not about hierarchy or anything else. And I've worked for, you know, as a vendor for some companies that were really not whisperable at all. And I didn't work for them for very long for a variety of reasons. But it's really hard to be in that type of environment.

[John Chance]

You have a chapter about. I mean, so many people are working either hybrid or remote, or does that change the framework at all or the structure? Or does it just add kind of another layer of complexity?

[Bill Shander]

I think it adds another layer of complexity for sure, because communications is harder. Right? Like right now, I'm not looking at you, I'm looking at my camera, but the viewer is looking at my eyes. So at least there's some eye contact. It feels like happening. And so when it's all on zoom, it's harder to have that real, really productive conversation. Certainly better in bringing the body language and all kinds of other things disappear. So there's definitely that added complexity. The process is still the same. You got to have conversations, you got to ask good questions and something we didn't talk about. But there's a key part to the question asking, which is when I ask my stakeholders questions, I'm not doing it to learn the answers. It's actually the other way around. It's more of a Socratic dialogue. I'm asking them questions so that they can learn the answers. I want them to Figure out what they actually need from me. I'm not trying to guide them, I'm not trying to tell them. I want them to figure it out. It's like therapy. And once they figure it out, then I'll do that. And so the question asking is a very. It's a two way street for sure. But you know, the goal is really to help them learn as much as, you know, to help me learn.

[John Chance]

Yeah, you know, you call it therapy, but it really strikes me it's a lot like coaching in some ways. I mean, you're almost coaching people to think about things that maybe haven't even considered. You know, one of my favorite phrases or least favorite phrases is, well, that's the way we've always done it. Or that's why everybody in our industry does it. And you know, just to even say, does anybody ask why that we've always.

[Bill Shander]

Done it that way.

[John Chance]

It's amazing how often people go, I don't know the answer to that. So do you have any in. In. In the book or anything you want to. Anybody you've worked with, clients that you've worked with? Kind of a real story or example where, you know, stakeholder whispering has really led to a far better outcome?

[Bill Shander]

Yeah, I mean, I tell one story in the book and it's funny on the surface, it's a really boring story. It's not the most dynamic anecdote in the history of the world at all, but it's one of the most. The moment when this happened was really eye opening for me. So I was working on a project, I was doing this data dashboard essentially for this client and we were having this conversation about whether we should show the rank position of countries on this one metric being measured. So this country's number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Or should we show the actual score they got on this measurement? So let's imagine it's about web analytics. Should we show the number of clicks they got or just the ranking in terms of clicks? And you know, their argument was the way this type of data usually works, the way it's always been done is we always just show the rank because people care, is their country ahead or behind their favorite country that they want to compete against? But the scores were universally really high. Very few countries had a low score. So you might have been ranked 150th. You let that. That looks terrible. It sounds awful. But guess what? You had a super high score just like everybody else. Only a few countries were actually bad. And so I was trying to make the case that, you know, maybe we should show the actual score because, you know, the fact that this country was ranked low didn't mean they had an actual problem.

[John Chance]

And so they could close 50 places pretty easily.

[Bill Shander]

Exactly. They could close it easily. And it didn't matter where they were anyways as long as they were above X score. And so, you know, I'm asking all these questions, we're having this really long debate and she almost convinced me five times. I almost convinced her five times. But the point was it was a very open ended conversation, mostly each of us asking each other questions. And in the end there was this one moment where she said, just literally she said the word something to the effect of. Yeah, I never saw it that way before. You're right. And it wasn't gratifying because I was right. Although that's nice. But it was really because there was this moment of just incredible open mindedness. To your point, like, why have we always done it that way? Who the hell knows? Like, well, well, why should we do it that way? Maybe we should consider. Maybe we do, maybe we won't change it, but maybe we should at least look at doing it this other way. And even that I consider a win.

[John Chance]

Well, Bill, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the show. You want to invite people to connect with you somewhere, find out more about your work, Obviously. Find out more about Stakeholder.

[Bill Shander]

Yeah, you can always find me on my website, billshander.com and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn as well.

[John Chance]

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days out there on the road.

[Bill Shander]

Thank you very much, John. Nice talking to you.

Hey, small business owners, let me ask you a quick question. Is your marketing actually working for you or just working you over? If you're tired of chasing random tactics and want real clarity, it's time for a strategy first approach. At Duct Tape Marketing, we help you build a marketing system you own. One that fits your business and finally puts you in control. No more chaos, no more guesswork, just a roadmap you trust powered by smart strategy. And let's face it, a little help from AI today. You ready to shift from overwhelm to confidence? Head over to DTM World/OwnIt. DTM World, OwnIt.