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- [00:00]
A
What if the real barrier to building a thriving practice is not just talent or expertise, but the outdated rules we've accepted about how business development is supposed to work? Hello and welcome to another episode of the ducktape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Chance. My guest today is Deborah Ferrone. She's a founder of Ferroni Advisors and a longtime leader in legal business development and marketing. She previously held senior business development roles at major law firms. And her new book, Breaking How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices, that's what we're going to talk about today. Welcome, Deborah.
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B
Thank you for having me, John.
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A
So for listeners, we're not going to talk about legal stuff. We're not going to necessarily. I think a lot of the things Deborah's going to share today will apply to anybody, particularly in professional services, because it really, the business development is very, very similar. So you've spent many years, I suspect, helping firms think about business development. This book focuses specifically on women. Is there a gap that you saw that you think made this book necessary?
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B
There was. You know, I think that most lawyers and most professionals develop business in very similar ways. But I felt that there were some women out there who either didn't have the role models because there are fewer women at the top of the organizations and law firms, or they didn't know how to have the skills to develop business. So that's why I really wanted to help them. But in doing the book, I realized that so much of what I was learning was applicable to anyone who wanted to develop business. It's just my sample set happened to be women.
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A
Yeah. So I think many people suffer from this regardless of the industry, but certainly in professional services, I think it is more so and that people, they don't even like the term sales. Right. I mean, it feels salesy. They, it's all the, it's all the bad things they associate with, with what they see it. But you certainly talk about, and I know that this is a thread running through the book, that it doesn't have to feel sales. Why do you think so many business professionals, sales professionals, really resist this?
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B
I think most of them went to school to learn a profession, whether it was to learn to be an accountant or a consultant. No one ever said you were going to have to go into sales. So it sounds like all of a sudden they have to have this new way of thinking. I really don't think that's the case. In fact, most of the successful people that I've worked with, whether they're consultants or lawyers, don't find Themselves asking for the business. They never really say, can I have that business from you? They very often let people know what they've done. They offer to help. They use words like can I support you? But they're not in sales mode. I think they really do want to help these potential clients. And so that comes through and I believe you need to be more authentic than you do a salesperson when you're trying to build a practice.
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A
I think there's a lot of things that certainly I've learned in selling professional services. That idea of, you know, give value, provide value, provide support, you know, and eventually, you know, that business will come around. But you know, what do you tell that person that is getting started out there? And they're like, that's great. You know, I all for the long game and for investing, but I need to eat. I mean, so, so how do you kind of thread that?
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B
I think it's important to have relationships and I really try to get young professionals to concentrate on that. And even if they're, they don't have the big budget in a firm, get your senior people to come and train the younger ones. Give them the war stories of how you've won clients or how you've met people that have developed business. I think that's very important. And I think even for people that are still in school to start thinking about your network. And your network isn't just the people that you go to class with, it's who you met at your summer jobs. Right. It's the people in your first job who work in ancillary positions. They might not be be a consultant if you're a consultant, or an accountant if you're an accountant. But they're the people that you've met and those folks become part of your network. And I think we're seeing with sales what we often see with job hunting, that those contacts that end up hiring us are not necessarily that first degree circle of people we know, but very often it's the people that they know. So it's important to have a large diverse network of contacts out there.
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A
Yeah, I always tell, I wrote a book on referrals actually, and I always tell people, you know, not everybody's your prospect, but everybody knows your prospect. You know, at least one of them. Right.
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B
It's true.
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A
Yeah. So you did a lot of conversations, had a lot of interviews, focused on a lot of successful women rainmakers. What patterns did you see showing up in how particularly how women build trust, visibility and opportunity?
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B
Well, I wasn't so much studying men versus women, as I was just kind of looking at this group of women, but I do find that they like relationship building. That's something that comes naturally to them. And what I did find that is maybe true with men as well, is that you need to be authentic in your marketing approach and how you develop business, that there is not a one size fits all. Not everyone fits into one of four categories. I think we all find our own way of doing it based on our personality, what works for us. And so people like Susan allende at Baker McKenzie, who I spoke to for the book, loves exercise, she loves being outdoors. And so she invites her clients and her colleagues and contacts whenever they're in town to go with her on a hike. That's not going to work for everyone. But she doesn't like this idea of having the formal cocktail party and inviting people she knows. So I think it's a matter of finding what works for you, because that's going to be what you want to repeat. And also that's what your clients are going to see that you enjoy. And clients can tell if you're taking them golfing, but you really don't like golf. Yeah, so.
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A
So, so I think that you just hit on. Really, the secret is finding what works for you and being yourself rather than looking at like, this is how everybody in our industry does it, or this is how everybody in our firm does it. You. You really will. Will be more successful doing something that works for you, which is probably going to be something that you also enjoy.
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B
Yes, and I try with the people that I know, and I'm sure you do too. You know, you want to really get to know them and figure out what are their proclivities, you know, what are they like? I worked with someone who was a classical musician, and she loves the opera, and so she lives in Milan. And what she does is she takes her clients and their spouses and families to see a short opera and then for a wonderful dinner because she enjoys it. And they can tell, they know that when she's taking them that they're having a good time. And so is she. And so I think that's really important is figuring out what it is that you enjoy, what's the best way for you to develop business. And it might not be the same way as the person next door.
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A
So what do you say to that, per that client, maybe that you're working with that? You know, I think a lot of people think in terms of to be successful business development, you have to be that outgoing, charismatic, you know, Networking, you know, kind of person. What do you tell that person who's like, that's just not me, you know, I don't feel comfortable doing that. You know, how am I going to succeed?
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B
Right. I think, you know, well, first of all, I tell people, don't take giant leaps, take baby steps. And that's the best thing to do. So that if you're not used to talking about yourself in your practice, do it with the family member, you know, then do it with a colleague, then do it with an associate at your firm, and then eventually you can do it with the client. So I think, you know, Jeff Klein, who's a well known lawyer in New York, said marketing is muscle. And I think it's true, you get better and better at it. But I also don't think that you need to be out having lunch every day with people if that's not your thing. I love coffee. I mean, I love any kind of coffee, right? So I love meeting people for coffee. It's perfect. I don't have to think about what I'm eating. I don't have to think about any variables. I'm happy at a Starbucks or a fancy hotel for coffee, and that's what I love. So I do coffee meetings. But other people find their ways and I think you have to do what feels authentic to you.
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A
So what? And maybe you don't keep track of this kind of thing, but going back, circling back a little bit to the, the gender aspect of your work, what's the percentage of women in leadership in the legal industry?
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B
It's very low. I mean, we have less than, I think, 30% or maybe around 30% that are actually partners. And if you look at the American Lawyer 100, the top firms, fewer than 25% are being led by women. And so you have a real issue with diversity on all levels, you know, and even fewer are women or people of color. And so it's a real issue when you talk about looking for role models. And I think professionals, particularly lawyers, like to look at role models because they're interested in precedent. You know, they want to know what has the other person done that's been successful. And if they don't see people who look like them in those roles, it's a lot harder to figure out how they're going to get there.
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A
Do you feel like that system, if you will, still quietly works against women, then?
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B
I do.
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When it comes to business development, I
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B
mean, particularly, yeah, I think women and minorities have a tougher time because there are not those role models. I think there are other issues at play, like unconscious bias. My focus really is on business development. And I feel that, you know, if we can teach people how to develop business, whether they're in the professions or even if they're in something like advertising, if you have the ability to sell yourself and to develop business, it gives you so much more ability to write your own script and to do what you want, because you're going to have more advantages as far as rising within an organization if you're a business developer that we've seen. And you can also kind of develop the clients that you want to develop and develop the practice that appeals to you. And that's great. That gives you a sense of independence that you wouldn't have otherwise. So that's really what I want to encourage people to do.
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A
You can probably take that on the road too, right? To another firm you can, as well as within your own firm, Right?
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B
Absolutely. It allows you freedom. It's a type of currency, isn't it, that you have that capability?
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A
So we've been talking about applying this to law for consultants, agency owners, other experts. What do you think your book could teach them about building a practice around relationships rather than self promotion?
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B
Oh, well, I think the authenticity issue is very big. Also, trust. I cover how you build trust, and it seems to be three elements. It's expertise, it's the authenticity piece, and it's empathy. And I go into a lot of detail about that because I think being yourself amongst your clients is not something we're trained to do necessarily. But I try to show people examples of folks who have done that and why they've been successful. And clients want to work with people who are believable, who come across as humans. You know, I told you when we got on the call that I might have a coughing attack. I don't pretend to be perfect, you know, and I think people like people more when they are themselves and they admit that they're fallible. And so there are lots of different things for other professionals to learn from these lessons. And the other, really, is to develop a niche. I think developing a niche is so vital regardless of what you're doing in the world, because figuring out what you really enjoy and then figuring out, if you think of it as a Venn diagram, what makes economic sense or sense for the firm that you're with, finding where those overlap is just a vital part of being able to market yourself
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A
and then going very good at deep in becoming an expert at that thing.
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B
Right, Right, absolutely. But I think we. We all have a tendency to jump into the tactics before we do the strategy. And I really would recommend people think about the strategy and how they want to be known and what they want to do before they take an immediate jump into giving lots of speaking engagements or marketing themselves.
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A
So most professional service firms expect partners to grow the practice. So where do you see the firms themselves getting it wrong in terms of not really equipping those, you know, just saying, go out there and do it?
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B
Yeah, I think they need to train people. I think training has to start when someone is very young in business. I think you can train an older person, you can teach them new tricks. But what happens is, and we see this in so many professions, if you're not training them when they're associates or when they just start, not only are they losing, whatever, seven or eight years of building good habits about business development and marketing and relationship building, but they're losing those contacts that they could have made. So they've not been trained. They don't have the contacts. All of a sudden, you make them partner and you say, okay, it's time. Go develop business. And it's much harder at that point.
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A
Makes sense. So is there anything in the interviews that you did, particularly with the women, that kind of challenged some of your own assumptions about business development, even about leadership?
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B
I think finding that there were cultural differences, there were more cultural differences than I thought there would be around the world. So I spoke with women in Botswana. I spoke with women in Milan and Paris and Asia. And there are differences that I think I just see generally as a difference with culture, whether it's men or women. But in parts of Asia, you would never be direct and say, I want to do business with you, I want to work with you, unless if you really do know someone very well. And the same is true with even portions of Italy and Europe. You know, London is more like America, as far as you can be a little bit more direct. But Latin America is also different in that they want to take time and get to know you. And so I think the cultural differences were really interesting. I was aware that there might be some, but the ones that I heard about just reinforced how important it is, especially if you're going to another country, that there are going to be cultural differences. And even if you're going to another firm, another company that you're trying to sell, you have to just be very empathetic and really understand the culture of that company. So that was reinforced if.
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A
And I'm sure you've been brought in from time to time to work with somebody who's really good at what they do. Sort of hesitant to put themselves out there. Do you always, I mean, is there a first step that you say, well, just do this, it won't kill you, this will get you started.
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B
Oh, I think so much of it is getting to know someone because everyone's going to have their quirks. And so while I do work for large companies and large firms, I will take on about eight coaching clients a year. And I really need to start with getting to know what they do, what they love, what they hate about work, all of those things, and then we can figure out where they want to go. But I really do believe that strategic part has to come before they start selling themselves. And very often the selling themselves part starts with how they sell themselves internally at their company. You know, are they making the right contacts and are they helping other people and are they creating a good reputation for themselves? Those things matter so much and they're so easy to overlook.
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A
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I'm sure. I'm. I'm sure that when people, especially young associates inside of professional service firm, part of, especially a larger firm, part of the job is start your networking here, right? I mean, go meet these partners or go, you know, ask somebody how they got to where they got and find a mentor, maybe even. And you know, that's all part of that's, that's business development, you know, frankly, isn't is.
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B
And you know, I spoke, I guess maybe two or three weeks ago at Columbia Law School, and I said to the law students, it's really important that you know everyone in this room because one of you is going to be the next Sam Altman, or one of you might be the head of an architecture firm or a law firm, you just don't know. And so it really needs to start at that level. It needs to kind of reach people who are still trying to figure out what they want to do. You know, develop a network, think about who is in your network and make sure that you're empathetic to what they're going through.
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A
It's funny, when I started my business 30 years ago, all my first clients were people I went to high school and college with.
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B
I'm not surprised.
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A
So, all right, you wrote Breaking Ground. What do you hope firms and individuals, professionals will do differently as a result of Reading?
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B
I think one start, start training people early. You know, don't wait until they become a partner at their firm and also realize that everyone develops business in a different way. And can develop business in a different way. So have room for people to do it authentically. You know, give them a budget, give them some guardrails of what they can and can't do if you need to, but allow them to find a way to develop business that's right for them. So I think those are two things that I would start with.
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A
Awesome. Well, Deborah, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. Is there somewhere you'd invite people to find out more about Breaking Ground and certainly to connect with you?
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B
Absolutely. Well, Breaking Ground, they can easily order through Amazon or through my website. There's some links for discount codes and things like that. And my website is debraferon.com and most of the time I live on LinkedIn. I guess if you can say, where do you live as far as social media on LinkedIn. Ebrabriteman Ferrone.
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A
Awesome. Again, I appreciate you stopping by and maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
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B
Oh, John, thank you so much. It was fun speaking with you, Sam.