← The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast
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- [00:00]
Sarah Nay
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Jon Jantz
Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is Jon Jantz, and I think I'm kind of the guest today because my host today is Sarah Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, and she's gonna. We're just gonna have a conversation about some of the things going on in the world of marketing. I've said before, I think 2025 is going to be a year to remember in terms of change. I'll say that next year, too, I bet. But I think the pace of change that I think we're seeing right now, just in the first couple of weeks of January are. It's kind of flooring me. And I think it's going to be tough to keep up. So strap in. Hang on. And here we go, Sarah.
- [00:47]
Sarah Nay
And we were just having a discussion with some of our team about how we're always, you know, looked at it, staying on top of marketing trends. And that's been the position of Duct Tape marketing for a while. And right now we feel like we're sprinting more than we have before with all the advancements. And that's a lot of what we're going to talk about today. So thanks for letting. Letting me steal the host seat. I want to start with a question.
- [01:06]
Jon Jantz
Can I throw in a joke, A lame joke? So R and D now stands for run and dash.
- [01:11]
Sarah Nay
Run and dash. I love it. Well, I'm going to start with a question. You've been in the game, the marketing game, for quite some time now. So you were involved when websites, everyone started building websites and getting online, and also when social media became a thing, and everyone was talking about how that's going to change the whole entire industry. And so right now, obviously, we're going through a lot of conversation and discussion and excitement around AI and everything that's evolving there. So I'm curious, how does right now feel the same than some of those different excitement phases that have happened or developments that have happened over the years? And also on the other end, how does it feel a bit different this time, or does it feel different?
- [01:49]
Jon Jantz
Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways it feels if there's a same, it's fundamentally what we're here to do as marketers. I don't think it'll ever change. And so a lot of the changes that came along were like, oh, wait, we have a new way to interact with customers. We have a new platform to be found. Customers, you know, have a different way to buy from us. So those were, those were kind of, in a lot of ways, incremental Changes, significant ones for a lot of folks. In terms of the change with what AI is bringing, I think it's much more foundational. It certainly feels very different. And I think partly because it impacts so many areas of a business. A lot of the. A website, you know, was kind of a marketing thing, whereas AI is impacting finance, it's impacting customer service, it's impacting certainly all the marketing functions, and ultimately it's impacting consumers and, you know, what they're able to do, you know, greatly. And I just feel like this is a. You know, I've heard some people say this, and it might be kind of cliche, but, you know, this is almost like. This is almost like, you know, the industrial revolution, like all these machines, you know, came along, that automated, you know, manual labor that, you know, that. That really displaced a lot of jobs and started creating the, you know, the knowledge economy. And I think this is a bit more like that. This is going to fundamentally shift how we work.
- [03:09]
Sarah Nay
Yeah, absolutely. In the school system, a lot of it was built from that era as well. And so I've heard a lot of conversation about, you know, potentially AI adjusting how we actually teach our children in school as well.
- [03:20]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, no more math. Right. Who needs math? Who needs learn math? Right.
- [03:24]
Sarah Nay
It's done for you a lot of what you've spoken about over the years. Strategy before tactics, and now a lot of people are talking about strategy before technology. And so I'm just curious, your take on. There's. There's a lot of shiny objects in AI. There's a lot of. Every time I check my email, there's 10 different tools that are being recommended for me that relate to AI. And so I think a lot of people are getting sucked into just doing things and figuring out how it works, but not necessarily taking a step back and saying, how could this apply to my business? How could I approach this strategically? So what would your advice be there for someone that. That needs to get out of the shiny object syndrome and focus on the strategy behind it?
- [04:00]
Jon Jantz
Well, I think it's. I think there's a real danger in not. In fact, I think strategy is more important and here's why. It's like taking somebody who used to ride a bike. You know, you got a helmet, you're riding the bike, you're probably okay if you crash, unless you're like, on a mountain or something. Right. But now we're going to put somebody in the seat of a Lamborghini without a seat belt, without a helmet, we're going to say Drive really fast. And if they don't, if they are on the right road, if they don't have the right map, if they don't have the right skills, you know, they're just gonna fat, they're just gonna die faster. I know that's sort of dramatic, but I think that that's what's gonna happen from a marketing standpoint. From a business, if your strategy is wrong, if your messaging's wrong, if your product market fit is wrong, you're just gonna fail faster now. So you might succeed faster as well. But. But if you don't have the right strategy in place, it's gonna say, here's the path we're gonna take there' in just having a whole lot of technology that's going to get you there faster.
- [05:02]
Sarah Nay
Yeah, absolutely. What about the mindset shift too? Because there definitely are different sides of things. People are like, AI is the future, stuff's changing quickly. This is the best thing ever. But there's also the other side of things where people are like, I'm terrified as where we're going, we're going to lose all these jobs. And so what about adopting the right mindset to be able to advance with these?
- [05:20]
Jon Jantz
Well, I think there's legitimate fear. There are a lot of jobs that are going to be displaced, a lot of positions, a lot of skills that are not going to be that important. I mean, when you think about, I now have the world's smartest human beings, the world's, you know, greatest IQ at my disposal, you know, all of a sudden being smarter, you know, is not going to be an advantage necessarily, because we can tap that, that computing power. So the mindset shifts. I think, I think it's at two levels. Certainly at the leadership level, you have to embrace it. You have to train your folks, you have to get them ready. And I think at the manager, the skilled, you know, person working in an organization, you know, they have to realize that their job is probably not anymore about doing technical things. It is going to be about managing the, the path that those technical things are being done on. So, you know, that might not be a fit for everybody who, you know, really likes to get in there and crunch the numbers and analyze the data, you know, instead of really, you know, looking at, like, I need to be really good at reading actuary tables, for example. You actually need to be really good at analyzing, you know, this amazing output that you're going to get from these tools and managing and orchestrating the output that you get and making sense of it and contextualizing it. And that's probably a different skill set. You know, before we got on the call, I was, and I give Lisa Adams full credit for this. Look her up on LinkedIn if you want to find out. Some, somebody who's really doing some great things in AI. But she, she said this statement, we've been saying it for a long time. Strategy is going to be more important, the human element is going to be more important. But she, she just nails it with this. As AI democratizes iq, EQ is going to become more important. Those, some people call them soft skills, but emotional quotient, the, you know, the ability to, to, to bring emotion, the ability to bring reality, you know, into who you're trying to market. You to understand your customers, to understand the context in which your customers are trying to solve their problems. Those are things that humans with high eq, you know, are very, very good at. You can take it farther. I mean, AI is democratizing reach. So community is going to be more important, like as we can like spam more people, you know, communicating is going to be more important as AI just makes it so easy for anybody who's never written two words or put two sentences together can now create, you know, theoretically create long form content. You know, having personal connection with your clients is going to become more important. So those are all things that, you know, if you were going to go read a book or take a course on eq, you know, those are the kinds of things, you know, listening, empathy are the kinds of things that they would talk about. And I think those are going to be the things that, those are going to be the skills that are going to be valued in the job market moving forward.
- [08:15]
Sarah Nay
Yeah, absolutely. And so we've talked about this a lot, you and I too. It's right now we're not thinking about AI as replacing jobs. It's helping us do different or better or higher level work. And so I think that also sums up what you were saying there. We're not like firing our whole team and letting them go because we're bringing a bunch of AI, but we are helping them all elevate and us, ourselves elevate, you know, to focus on the strategic thinking and the creativity and the collaboration and the EQ elements that you talked about there as well.
- [08:45]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, and sadly there will be people that are looking at that way is, look, I can have all these agents and I don't have to have any people. I saw somebody post on LinkedIn, the $3 billion company with only three employees and you know, those get headlines, those get clicks. But you know, frankly, it is going to displace the positions or the functions inside of organizations. And you know, certainly people with high eq, I think will, who can adapt to kind of a new way to work, I think will thrive and there will be some, you know, just like everything. I mean, when the automobile came along, you know, when the factories came along, I mean, different jobs got displaced. When the computer along, you know, different jobs got displaced and it ultimately, you know, new jobs were created, new education was created, new training was created for people to, you know, to change the skills. But that's, you know, that's never great for somebody that, you know, all their life has done a certain type of job and now they're being told, oh, you have to, you have to work differently than you have your whole life. But you know, that, that's come really with, with even incremental changes, you know, over time in the workplace.
- [09:52]
Sarah Nay
Yeah, I think it's really important. I read something the other day about the mindset shift with AI and what you were talking about there is like you really have to have a growth mindset with this thing. You have to be eager to learn and expand and grow as a human to be able to get the full capabilities of AI. And I think that's a good, good way to think about it as well.
- [10:08]
Jon Jantz
Yeah. And I'll acknowledge it's exhausting.
- [10:10]
Lisa Adams
Yeah.
- [10:11]
Jon Jantz
But, but you, you know, I, I think particularly at the speed, you know, that we're moving right now, but you're absolutely right. You have to have that growth mindset. And, and it's tough because, I mean, it means you have to do things that are not comfortable. Maybe, you know, there's a lot of people that you mentioned this idea that AI, you know, seems really frightening and kind of techie. And so there's just, you know, some folks that, that's, you know, that's not their comfort zone. But it's a matter of, I don't mean this in a really negative sounding way, but I don't think we have much choice.
- [10:45]
Lisa Adams
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:47]
Sarah Nay
Another area I want to dive into a bit more is you mentioned the human element a little bit more and making personal connections with your clients. And so with the evolution of AI right now we're seeing people are producing more content. There's chatbots online, you know, you're getting cold outreach, direct outreach from AI tools. And so there's a lot of stuff that feels very automated. LinkedIn Comments is another example where it just feels very automated. So how can Companies stand out from that noise by doing things such as, you know, building trust, building brand, actually connecting with people. So what are some examples to, to, to stand out from the noise?
- [11:21]
Jon Jantz
Well, I think for a lot of marketers particularly, you know, you have to really understand your brand voice. I mean, you have to have a brand voice. I mean, there is, that's one of your differentiators. It's, you know, duct tape marketing is quite often seen by people as very practical, down to earth, plain spoken. And that's a brand voice that, that, you know, we've spent a lot of time developing and you know, shame on us if we use some of the automation tools to not sound like us. So, so I think that's really, you know, I think, I feel like we're very empathetic. I think we're very caring about what we do and care about the people that we serve. And that comes out, I think, in the content that we produce. And you know, it is really tempting to say, oh look, I can do a, I can automate somebody having 100 LinkedIn comments, you know, spread all over the place. Well, first off, probably is counter to what you're trying to do because, you know, you and I have laughed about it. You see these comments on your LinkedIn posts and just clearly, you know, that was just AI generated and, and you know, it really actually kind of makes you want to ban that person, you know, and so it's certainly not doing any value for them. But I, I think what it just means is it'll get easier to spot something that is both AI generated and something that is actually authentically generated. I think you'll get, I think the gap between those two is going to get even larger. And so spending the time to say, hey, here's who I really am and this is how I talk. And maybe I don't use punctuation here, you know, whatever, whatever it is that is your brand voice, I think just understand it and stay true to it. And I know there are a lot of people talking about, oh, you could train AI to do that, but I can spot it.
- [13:05]
Unknown
Hey, small business owners, let me ask you a quick question. Is your marketing actually working for you or just working you over? If you're tired of chasing random tactics and want real clarity, it's time for a strategy first approach. At duct tape marketing, we help you build a marketing system you own, one that fits your business and finally puts you in control. No more chaos, no more guesswork, just a roadmap you trust powered by smart strategy. And let's face it, a little help from AI today. You ready to shift from overwhelm to confidence? Head on over to DTM World ownit. DTM World slash, ownit.
- [13:47]
Lisa Adams
Yeah.
- [13:48]
Sarah Nay
I think one of the easiest ways to spot an actual human producing content for me versus AI, one of the best ways I can see is storytelling. If someone's talking about their actual personal experiences, I think that's an easy way to spot. So do you think the. Do you think there's going to be an increased importance of storytelling as a brand and also, you know, humans representing the brand as well?
- [14:09]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, I think storytelling has actually been. It's been hot for 10 years. You know, I mean, that idea in marketing. But I think you're right. It's now going to be a key differentiator. I mean, I can't make up that case story or that example of, you know, what happened, you know, on a day at work in your actual office can't be made up. And so, you know, I think that that's in a lot of ways going to be a huge differentiation.
- [14:32]
Lisa Adams
Yeah, absolutely.
- [14:34]
Sarah Nay
Do you think there's a specific area of marketing that's being shaken up the most right now? So SEO paid any, any channels that are being shaken up the most right now?
- [14:44]
Jon Jantz
Well, I think the content one was the first one that of course, you know, when people woke up and went, wait, I hate writing content. You mean, I can just put this in this thing and It'll spit out 700 words. I mean, the, the real temptation, you know, was first there because it seemed so easy, seemed, you know, too good to be true. Right. And so people certainly jumped in there. So it. Now a lot of people are starting to realize the backlash of that and the fallacy of, you know, of that just being able to produce content. So that was the first area, though, that clearly got disrupted. I would say the next one is, is clearly going to be coming in the creative space. The design, you know, the video, the editing. I mean, those are things that, again, I don't think there's too many people out there going to dall E and producing, you know, images for everything. But, but certainly it's not far away. And they're, you know, they're, they're not only having video and audio editing tools that, that work quite well. They're going to have video and audio, audio creation tools that are, are going to work, you know, to the, to the level where you could actually put in a script and it will actually create an entire video for you. So I think there'll be some disruption there. Again, I think that's one of those things that now all of a sudden there's the, you know, there's a lot of things that AI tools can do. And you know, I think the differentiator is going to be somebody looking at it and saying, you know, with our brand voice in mind, with our brand promise in mind, what should it do? And so, you know, there are things, you know, I had somebody that wanted to have an AI bot interview me for a podcast, you know, for, for example, I was like, well, first off I'd wasn't interested. But secondly, I was like, why would anybody, you know, think that was a good idea? But you know, there are a lot of things that people do because they look at it and they go, look, if we connect this together and this connect and people get really excited about that. But I think we have to stay real and say, okay, from a practical sense, what would be a, what would be the best experience for our clients?
- [16:42]
Lisa Adams
Yeah, absolutely.
- [16:42]
Sarah Nay
And that's why we've been really focused on recently in our conversations is what's a good use case? Like why are we exploring this? How can we actually make a difference with that? And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. Another area that I've heard you talk about a little bit is hyper personalization in terms of communication. And so it's not going to be just about mass content to everyone that follows you. Like, we have an opportunity to get a lot more focused in what we're saying to specific people. So I would love to just hear your, your insights. And what do you think the opportunity there is for 2025?
- [17:11]
Jon Jantz
Well, for a lot of smaller businesses, the opportunity, I mean, personalization's been there, let's face it, since email service providers came along. And you could say he inside an email that that's a level of personalization that's been there forever. But what AI does is gives us easier access to a lot of data. So for instance, not only do I know your first name, I know your LinkedIn profile and I know the last five things you've posted about and that can actually be brought into a data set. You know, keeping all privacy, you know, things in mind that can be brought into a data set that would allow me to say, hey, here are four products we sell. You talked about this. I'm going to send you an email on Tuesday morning at 7 o' clock because that's when you post all the time and I know you're around on your Computer. So I'm going to send you that email and I'm going to talk about not only a certain product that we have that I think would be a fit for you, but the problem that you uniquely identified that it solves for you. So that's the promise of it now.
- [18:13]
Lisa Adams
Yeah.
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Jon Jantz
The challenge, of course, is, you know, a lot of small businesses don't have access to that data. A lot of larger organizations certainly are way ahead in that game. But segmenting and personalizing is something that, you know, a lot of the tool sets are going to start making easier in the very near future. And I think it's, you know, a lot of what we have to do as marketers is informed by behavior that other companies are doing that people get used to. And so when people start expecting that you're going to understand, you know, what they need or you're going to understand that they already bought that product, they're going to be less tolerant about, you know, your kind of one size fits all kind of promotion.
- [18:57]
Lisa Adams
Yeah.
- [18:58]
Sarah Nay
On the sales side of things, I'm using a tool right now to prepare for sales calls where it basically brings in someone's disc profile based on their LinkedIn. And it helps me understand how to sell to that unique individual, how to get their attention. Should I stay very high level or should I get down into the weeds? And so that's just an example of more personalized sales. I know you were talking a lot about marketing, but marketing and sales go together, so.
- [19:22]
Jon Jantz
Yeah. And I, it's funny that I use that same tool.
- [19:25]
Unknown
Of course.
- [19:25]
Jon Jantz
I just did a Google Meet with somebody and it actually popped up in the Google Meet and said, here's how to talk with that person. So it's pretty, pretty cool. Yeah.
- [19:34]
Lisa Adams
Awesome.
- [19:35]
Jon Jantz
I suspect it does in zoom. I've never done it, but that was the first time I'd seen it.
- [19:39]
Lisa Adams
Nice.
- [19:40]
Sarah Nay
Well, we're at the top of our time about. So any final thoughts just on the topic of 2025, what people should be focusing on? Right. Marketing.
- [19:47]
Jon Jantz
Well, you said probably the one that's the biggest, you know, is, is continually evolve. I mean, this is not going to stop. That's. You're not going to catch up necessarily. So continue, you know, to grow, continue to commit to growth. And I don't think you have to, I don't think you have to throw your hands up and say, oh, I have to learn everything about this. Follow a couple good people, focus on one new tool or one new use case, you know, a month or something so that you'll start understanding it and start making it a priority for your teams to, to start, you know, to continue to grow, to continue to learn these things so that you can actually explore them together and really start to get that mindset cemented about, you know, how we have to work with this new set of tools and technology that we are all going to have available whether we like it or not.
- [20:40]
Sarah Nay
And I would add one more too. I've learned a lot from just connecting and masterminding with other people that are doing really interesting things with a AI and so I would also encourage you, on top of what John just shared to, to form a mini mastermind group with some peers and share use cases and how you're both all exploring the different tools as well. Because I think you can just learn a lot from others because we're all just figuring it out right now.
- [21:01]
Jon Jantz
We ought to do that. Why don't we create a, a membership type of program where you can join and we'll give you a use case once a month and, and kind of collaborate, you know, as a group in a live training or something. If that sounds interesting to you, send me an email because that's something we might actually work on. I think that would be a really cool thing. So it's just John at Duct Tape Marketing, if you think that that idea of a collaboration membership around AI so you can learn in real time, like there's no way to create a course on AI because it's changing so fast, but kind of having a monthly accountability group where you're working on a use case might actually be kind of cool. So let's do that, sir.
- [21:41]
Sarah Nay
Let's do it. You heard it here first. We'll keep it as practical as possible.
- [21:44]
Jon Jantz
So awesome.
- [21:45]
Sarah Nay
Thanks, John.
- [21:46]
Jon Jantz
Well, thank you all for tuning in to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. And this is where I guess I'm supposed to say, hopefully we'll see you.
- [21:54]
Unknown
One of these days out there on the road.
- [21:55]
Sarah Nay
Thanks, everyone.
- [22:01]
Unknown
Hey, small business owners, let me ask you a quick question. Is your marketing actually working for you or just working you over over? If you're tired of chasing random tactics and want real clarity, it's time for a strategy first approach. At Duct Tape Marketing, we help you build a marketing system you own, one that fits your business and finally puts you in control. No more chaos, no more guesswork, just a roadmap you trust powered by smart strategy. And let's face it, a little help from AI today. You ready to shift from overwhelm to confidence? Head on over to DTM World. Ownit. DTM World slash. Ownit.