A (3:00)

Yeah.

B (3:00)

So it's really focused on that task by task. And within those tasks, not telling yourself that you have to give it to AI because AI can. It's saying, what do I now have more time for that? I wish I had time for that. I can just give to AI and looking at it from a month by month basis, where am I recruiting AI to help me out this month? Task by task, like bring it way smaller. That's when it becomes tangible and something you can actually create a plan around.

A (3:30)

You know, it's funny, I've. I've owned my own business for 30 years, so I've seen a lot of these things come and, you know, I remember. I feel like there's a little parallel to when it all of a sudden became kind of trendy to get it a virtual assistant, you know? Right. And it was like, oh, I can get somebody from the Philippines to do this work for, you know, whatever, you know, rate. But they still had to figure out what that work was. You know, it wasn't a magic pill. Right. And I think there's. I know that this is not a person doing the work, but I think there's some parallels, aren't there?

B (4:01)

Oh, absolutely. And this is the perfect way to set this up as well. What I teach people as well is saying, when you go to offload that task to AI, I need you to picture AI as if it was a person and you just hired them. And bonus points is to give them a salary. In your mind saying, I just hired this person. I'm paying them $2,000 a month. I just hired this business advisor. I'm paying them $8,000 a month to just talk to me and help me. Right. Put a number on there. This is for your mind. Because what you want to do is now look at that situation and say, how much context would I give this new VA I hired in order to expect them to do this job well? And then in order to expect them to do this job extraordinarily well. Right. At the end of the day, it's the amount of context that you're giving that person. Right. How many SOPs? What about the context of the business and the products and all the things you've tried before and what's working and what's not working? Right. Looking at AI the exact same way as you did when you went to hire that va, I think we've all hired a va. Didn't give them enough context. And then we're like, man, they didn't give me what I was looking back.

A (5:09)

Well, they actually became a. They actually became a pain because you had to, like, think up stuff for them to do every day. Right. Because you hadn't really planned anything.

B (5:16)

Exactly. And so with AI, that's exactly it as well. What we're looking to do is say, AI should take over your work just task by task. Don't make it any bigger than what it really is. It's task by task. It's the tasks that you want to offload. This is AI. Like, you get to choose what you keep working on and you get to choose what you say. I would love AI to take that on. And then when you hire AI for that task, imagining it's a person that you hired with a salary and saying, how much context would I give to this person? What type of onboarding would I put them through? What would I make sure they have access to before I even let them start working on this project? That immediately helps you get way more success out of that experience with your new AI va, for example.

A (6:03)

So you've used the term several times, and I was going to ask you about this. You intentionally used the term hiring AI. So maybe kind of unpack what you mean by that or how that's different than people are typically engaging AI, let's put it that way.

B (6:18)

So I use hiring AI for the human mind because a lot of AI takes just. It's all about reframing the way that we're thinking about it. Right. And we've all had conversations in ChatGPT where you're like, wow, this is the most brilliant, incredible thing that just happened. And we've also all had conversations in there where you're like, I am so close to throwing my computer out the window.

A (6:41)

Stop agreeing with me.

B (6:42)

Right, Exactly. Like, no, that wasn't a good idea. Right. And AI is like, you're like the. You're the most brilliant person that ever existed. And so that's what we try to do here is instead of just like winging it and hoping that it gets the job done, it's you reframing it in your mind to say, I am Approaching this like, I am hiring a person to do the job. And the only difference here is that AI has the ability to look through way more context than that person would. And so instead of saying, I'm just going to try to figure out this AI use case, I'm gonna just try to put it together. It's you as the human in your mind saying, as I sit down to situate this. I am hiring AI for this role. I'm not just trying to see if it can work and taking it seriously because it's however serious you take it is the output that you get.

A (7:36)

So does this change how we think about the traditional org chart? I mean, when we used to hire a person, it was to fill a role, and that role did all these things. And in a lot of ways, are we saying no, we want to hire specific AI tools to do specific tasks, and we might have a hundred of them?

B (7:56)

Yes, it definitely changes the org chart. What I teach is this idea of you have the org chart, if you're a business owner, for example, of you up top. And then normally you would have had, like, employees under you. Right now you have you up top, you have a bunch of your own AI. Let's just call them agents for now as a placeholder word here, a bunch of little AI agents that can do a bunch of tasks for you, but you still have your team underneath that. And then your team under each of one of them, they have a bunch of agents that are underneath them. Because if we just look at an org chart and then start to say, what is the task that each person has to do every day? That's where we start to go back to the beginning here. And we say, okay, let's start bringing AI support in as much as possible for each of those tasks. And looking at that support not just in terms of can it do the task right, it shouldn't just be an assistant, but while it's hypothetically over there, why doesn't it also be a strategist and help you strategize something that you hadn't thought of previously with this new context? And then why doesn't it also act as an advisor while it's doing that thing too? And looking at the bigger picture of the goals of the company and making sure that this is aligned to them? So looking at hiring those AI agents for everybody with the goal of not saying we should replace our whole team, but the whole team can be monumentally enhanced if they have this AI assistant, strategist and advisor helping them see what they previously Couldn't see.

A (9:23)

Hey, you want to keep up on all things Duct Tape Marketing? The stuff I read, the books, the people I interview. Check out the Duct Tape Marketing newsletter. Every week we're going to send you out, we're going to keep you up to date on what's going on in the world of marketing. And just for subscribing, you're going to get our free chat GPT prompts that will allow you or assist you in the creation of marketing strategies and plans. So check it out. It's at DTM World/News. That's DTM World News. So does it then, as I listen to you describe that, in my experience, even working with our own team is it really kind of changes what their role is as well? I mean, it's. You talk about these agents, they're much more of a manager in a lot of ways. Managing the agents or managing the output, directing, overseeing, strategizing. And so does that. While I, I think that people are getting that, does that cause some disruption inside of an organization where you've got a bunch of doers?

B (10:30)

Yes and no. So I think what happens here is if we were to think about two, three years ago, we look at AI and we couldn't have even fathomed where we would be, right? 2023, ChatGPT just comes out. There's a lot of question of how good is it going to be at things? How smart can it get? Right? Yeah. And it was hard to predict, okay, here's where we are now going to be. Here's what the future looks like. And I feel that same sense today that it's extremely difficult to predict and say, well, here is where we will be. Because we hadn't even predicted that AI would be such a big part of the workforce like four or five years ago. And so to me, it's so much more about just getting there and then saying, okay, now what is the plan based on? Where AI is and what its capabilities are and what people are interested in doing, and how people and AI come together in this hybrid intelligence, like, where's our role now? It's going to be different than it was two years ago or today in a few years.

A (11:31)

Explain what you mean by hybrid intelligence, because I know that was something I was going to ask you about because I know you've talked about that before. So explain where that fits.

B (11:38)

So I love this term hybrid intelligence. I've been shouting it from the rooftops for two years now, since 2023, when I read this incredible book called the Intuitive Executive It's a textbook. And inside it talked about this idea of hybrid intelligence, which means humans will always be central to decision making, with AI in a complementary supporting role. And so when we look to saying, all right, let's have AI come in and help us as people, whether you're a business owner, whether you're an employee, whether you're a consultant, whether you're an advisor, what we're really doing is creating a hybrid, intelligent relationship. I have a relationship with AI where it supports me a certain way. You have a relationship with AI where it supports you a slightly different way. We're both business owners, so it's pretty aligned, but there's still different things there that it's supporting us with. And that's what's going to happen across that org chart as well. That's when I start to say, well, you know what? It's pretty difficult to predict where we're going, because the AI support that I need as a business owner is much different than the AI support that maybe my virtual assistant needs. And so as we start to predict these things, it becomes more of a question of, well, at certain roles, what does that change look like instead of deciding that there's going to be this one big macro change.

A (12:54)

So do you see a window, not necessarily a trend, but a window here where companies will say, I get what you're talking about. I want to hire that recruiting agency that does this work, just like, you know, recruiting or people that place, you know, vas. Do you see? That's an opportunity, a business opportunity for people to actually come in and do this for companies.

B (13:15)

You mean like bringing in AI support, helping them set up?

A (13:18)

Yeah, actually be the one that defines the role and then trains and then, you know, installs it, so to speak?

B (13:24)

Oh, absolutely. There are a lot of AI agencies these days that are ready to audit and install whatever it is that you're looking for. What I tend to push back on here. And there is a time and a place for this, don't get me wrong. If it's an incredibly complex setup, you should hire somebody to situate it. But I think one of the most important things that all of us should know right now is the skill set of AI, because to me, this is kind of like saying, oh, it. Let's say it's like 1999, 2000, right? And you're saying, I'm just going to hire someone that knows how to use a computer, and then I'm just going to, like, tell them what I want to do on the computer for my Business.

A (14:06)

Yeah.

B (14:06)

To me, I'm like, that doesn't sound that smart. Right. And that's where we are now, I believe, where you don't want to just say, well, they know how to use AI. You want to be able to say, sure, they can build out something super complicated. That would take me hours. And it's not worth figuring out. There is totally that use case. But the skill set of AI I don't believe is something that is just like something you outsource. It's something to say, I'm going to take some time to learn this. And the thing about AI is that it is just a skill set. And so what is the difference between someone that has a skill set and doesn't? And that is literally just the amount of hours that they have put in to learning that thing. Right. And so all of us have the capability of learning the skillset of AI and just learning the foundational skillset that you need. Once you know that, then you can start to understand, oh, this new platform came out. It's actually not useful to me because of X, Y and Z. Oh, this old ChatGPT feature is out. This is awesome for us because of A, B and C. That's when you can really start to figure out, okay, this is what I should learn how to do. This is what I should set up. And then here's the complicated stuff to bring to somebody else.

A (15:18)

Yeah, it's funny, a parallel for me, you know, is in SEO, a lot of people are like, oh, I don't know how to do SEO. I'm just going to hire somebody to do it. And I always tell people, look, you have to actually be smart enough or know enough about SEO in order to buy it. And I think that's kind of the parallel because otherwise you're going to get ripped off by people that are selling you stuff that's not really going to be your thing. But you're just like, oh, I don't get that stuff, you do it. So I totally agree. So how does somebody go about. And you've kind of hinted at it, I think, to, you know, the first step is get stuff you don't like to do off your plate. Right. But how do you go about as a business, let's say you've got 10, 12 employees that probably could all benefit, you know, in their job functions in some way. How do you go about kind of structuring what our plan's going to be? Because I think if you just. I see a lot of companies just couple of their people are dabbling in it because they like that stuff and so they're using it this way and the owner of the business hates it. So they're like, I don't care what they do with that kind of. I mean, how do you, like, have a comprehensive plan that's really going to serve the business well?

B (16:22)

So I'll answer this in two parts. The first part here is that I've talked to business leaders and I've talked to their teams, separate conversations. And if you are a business leader, I can promise you your team wants you to give them guidance on how to use AI because they don't want to spend their time, their nights and weekends, going through some course that they had to buy themselves in order to be able to do this right. This is learning and development. They are waiting for you to say, hey, here's how we're going to start learning about AI and how we're going to bring it into the workspace. So it's a really important thing for leaders to know right now. Your team isn't going to raise their hand and say, I don't really know how to use it well, because what benefit does that give them? Right? So it's creating this awkward tension where the business leaders are like, we want you to use AI more. Please go use it more. We're more than happy. We'll pay 200amonth for a ChatGPT Enterprise account for you. And then the team is using it as glorified Google search.

A (17:19)

Yeah.

B (17:20)

So as a business leader, like, however you want to go about it, just make sure that you're giving your team guidance and courses and teaching them, hey, here's the skill set of AI. Instead of just saying, go use it and you figure out how to do it. So that's step one. Step two. Here we get a bit meta. This is something that I teach in my AI first business system is that what you can do is just tell AI what you do all day and then have AI give you an opportunity map that says, hey, here's where you can use me. Here's where you can use me at the assistant, strategist and advisor level. So what I teach in that AI first business system is essentially recruiting AI to tell you where to hire AI. And then again now you have task by task. You can say, okay, you know what, I hate doing this one task every day. Let me prioritize situating that and having AI support with that or being able to say, AI is helping at the assistant and strategist level of this one task. But if we just made this one little tweak, it could actually now be an advisor as well within that whole task. And now we're getting so much more information, we're making better decisions, we're more prepared, for example. That's the way that I see it. So leaders making sure that you're giving your team actual guidance and a plan as to how to use it, because they are asking for it, they're begging you for it, but they don't want to raise their hand and say it. And then two, create that opportunity map. Go through and tell AI what you do every day and have AI tell you where it can help.

A (18:50)

So you use the term using AI for recruiting. I may have messed that up, may have done it the other way around, but explain what. I know what you mean by that, but I think you kind of went by it. So I want to, I want you to kind of specifically highlight that idea.

B (19:03)

Yeah.

A (19:05)

So.

B (19:05)

And this kind of puts me out of a job hilariously when I give this advice. Right. Because I help people figure out where to add AI to their work. But at the end of the day, the best thing I can do is actually teach you the skillset of AI, which is this hybrid intelligent relationship where you're going to rely on AI to help you move forward with AI. So you can go into ChatGPT and say, hey, here's everything that I do every day. Here's where I use AI support, here's where I don't use AI support, here are the tools that I'm using, here are the tools that I kind of want to use, but I'm not using. And what it can do is create this opportunity map for you. I have a full workflow of this whole thing. But you can, you know, duct tape it together, of course, and be able to have AI just say, here's all the tasks that you do every day. Here's how AI could help at the assistant level, here's how it can help at the strategist level, here's how it can help at the advisor level. And so what you've really done is just upgrade AI into your recruiter, right? Yeah. Because you haven't hired AI to do any of those things yet. You've just essentially told AI, can you come audit my business and then tell me who I should hire and where it would be the most helpful. But instead of being like, well, you need a full time salary role here, you need this over here. We get to do it a little bit differently in this case and just go task by task.

A (20:21)

And I think what you just shared right there is really the biggest mindset shift, you know, because I do think a lot of people look at a ChatGPT window and say, I need to tell it. What do you know? I need to tell it to give me this output. And I think a lot of times they really struggle because they don't know what they don't know. And so I think just this idea of asking it first is such a mindset shift.

B (20:46)

Exactly. And that's really all AI is, if you start to think about it. Right. It's a mindset shift to say, okay, I just need to start to bring this on task by task. It's a mind shift to say, you know what I'm going to do here? I'm going to give it as much context and maybe more context than I normally give someone that I hire for the role. It's all of these reframes that are the reason that it's like a hybrid, intelligent thing. Right. This is a relationship we're building where we're learning who AI needs us to be in order for AI to be exactly what we want it to be. And the thing about AI and I talk about this all the time. I say AI is like a golden retriever. It's ready to go whenever you're ready to go. Right. It's like, where are we going? To the kitchen. Awesome. I couldn't be more excited. Are we going on a walk? I cannot wait. You just tell me where you want to go, because let's go over there. I don't even care. Right. And it's our job to put the constraints on it and to say, this is awesome. I love having intelligence on demand, but my role as the human part of this hybrid intelligence is to constantly put the guardrails on intelligence on demand and force it to funnel this intelligence through the specific guardrails that I need for this specific task or this thing I want to think through or a workflow that I'm building out. So it's our job in order to do that, and that is like the macro reframe that we all need. Yeah.

A (22:08)

And I. It's my hope. We never know, but it's my hope. That's the 5% we need to guard. Right own as humans, because that. That'll become our job. Well, Ava, I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there someplace you'd invite people to connect with you and learn about your work? Yeah.

B (22:23)

You can go to thinkwithai.com and that's where I have that AI first business system, as well as I'm building out some really cool stuff with notion agents right now that I am so stoked about. So you can check everything out over there.

A (22:37)

Awesome. Again. Well, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

B (22:42)

Likewise. John, nice to meet you.