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- [00:01]
A
Hey, if your 2025 marketing felt more like a scramble than a system, well, you're not alone. You stayed busy, clients showed up, but even you're not really sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope without a clear strategy. You're just throwing tactics at the wall and that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ducktape Marketing, is opening a few strategy first calls for service based business owners. They these one on one sessions are for those who already have clients but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency and direction. In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. The sponsor limited book yours now at DTM World slash fast start. That's DTM World fast start.
- [01:11]
B
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is Jon Jantz. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist, news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council or Channel. I should say he's been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was Talk Like TED at least. And today we're going to talk about his newest book, viral voices from TED talks to TikTok persuasive communication skills for the digital age. So welcome Carmen.
- [01:53]
C
John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and Duct Tape Marketing. Glad to see you're still going strong. Since we last spoke about Talk like ted, which was a few years back.
- [02:03]
B
I thought you were gonna say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, but yeah, no, I've, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was gonna be a cool medium. And so it, it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that's why I, you know, I have people I've had out on five, five, six times, you know, because they've written books that many books over that period of time. So one of the things I want to hit first is this isn't what you're calling an audio original book. And I think that's kind of fascinating because it, you know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, oh well, let's get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it's come a long way you know, now people are making them a little more performance based and there's sound effects and things like that. But why'd you choose to go this route?
- [02:52]
C
Isn't it fascinating? Because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what's called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York based publishing audiobook publisher. Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud, and unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic, written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audiobooks. I think you'll appreciate this, John. Through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio and archived speeches and history, I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery, or frankly, the art and the science of persuasion. So, for example, I was just thinking about this. Recently I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy's famous line in his inaugural speech, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed who explain why that line sticks.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah.
- [04:29]
C
Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back, symmetry, both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables, things like replacing long words with short words, etc. So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you've heard recently on AI? And I bet you've heard this before, AI won't replace you. Someone who uses AI will.
- [05:06]
B
I've said it, John.
- [05:09]
C
It's the same sentence. It's. That is an example of contrast. And so you've said it. I've said it. I've heard Mark Cuban say it. I've heard Sam Altman say it. But again, it's what's fascinating to me about this whole journey that I've been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you'll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it's on TikTok or a TED stage, or using PowerPoint. Again, digital, because the tools of communication have changed. The human brain is not. Understand the fundamental science behind persuasion and you'll Be able to adapt to any new platform.
- [05:54]
B
Yeah, I mean, let's go how far you want to go back. Cavemen, Aristotle, I mean they're known for actually persuasion, you know, as you said, I mean that's really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, oh no, the tools are. It changes everything. And it really is true. I mean, fundamentally, we've got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give them us their money. That's it.
- [06:22]
C
Right? Here's something I'll tell all the marketers today. What's the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous non fiction books in the world, Sapiens, and he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world, because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years. But what's fascinating to me is when I got to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history, but they're still using the same tactics of storytelling that we've known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That's interesting to me.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, storytelling, you know, evolved before there was a written language, you know, so there was no way to write down a, a story. It was passed, you know, from person elder to, you know, the next person. I think you're absolutely 100% right. What are some of the best communicators? I, I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book. I think a little, yeah, I do.
- [07:45]
C
A little bit because I interviewed Obama's former speechwriter. So it's more about the words, why they use certain words.
- [07:53]
B
So what do they do that's sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying in the haka product.
- [07:59]
C
Oh right now especially, it's really important that not only you do you study great communicators of the past, but, but also take a look at the, the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right and they're creating really interesting, creative and compelling.
- [08:23]
B
Mr.
- [08:23]
C
Beast. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is a perfect example. Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here's the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you'll know. And you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three act structure goes back to Aristotle. All famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three act structure and that is set up conflict resolution. Here's the status quo. Here's the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here's the problem they face and, and here's how they are going to resolve the problem. And everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I've interviewed. Sahil Bloom was a finance guy on Wall street and then created a newsletter and now has a quite a popular and strong following on Instagram where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, take me through the, take me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here's the way the world exists today. Here's the status quo. Here's what you've been doing. Here's why. If you continue to do what you've been doing, you're going to fall behind. And here's the solution that you've been searching for. That's how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked. That's the other word they use. All good content creators use the word hooked.
- [09:56]
A
Hook.
- [09:56]
C
How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three act structure often not even knowing that it's the three act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword, you can't just say, oh well, tell a story. No, be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure? And by following these simple structures, you'll be able to adapt into almost any means. Especially on social media. You can create a short form video that's perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first. Which is why I have one episode that's just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within the three act structure. And I'll use people like Jensen Huang. Jensen Huang may not be his household name, but Nvidia sure is. He's the CEO and founder of Nvidia. Listen to his interviews, John. It's kind, it's quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny's. When people ask him about Nvidia and the founding of Nvidia and how it was created. He doesn't start by talking about, well, it's a five. The first $5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that power the AI world. Instead, he said it all started at Denny's where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became Nvidia. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero's journey. He's not starting from the conclusion, he's starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this and all, most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it's more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at Nvidia has a lot of ups and downs too. And he takes people through this arc until today. That to me tell. That tells me he's a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging as marketers or speakers. If you understand how to tell a powerful story.
- [12:21]
A
Hey, if you're 2025, marketing felt more like a scramble than a system. Well, you're not alone. You stayed busy, clients showed up. But deep end, you're not really sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope without a clear strategy. You're just throwing tactics at the wall and that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ducktape Marketing, is opening a few strategy first calls for service based business owners. These one on one sessions are for those who already have clients but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency and direction. In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. The sponsor limited book yours now at DTM World sl fast start. That's DTM World slash fast start.
- [13:21]
B
You mentioned the idea of a hook and I think a lot of people use that. In a lot of ways it's become so important because attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is. It's like give me three seconds. You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this. Right, right. How? Unfortunately, that sometimes leads to clickbait and to, you know, to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively?
- [13:46]
C
First of all, it's not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this Is new. John, do you know how nowadays people say movement, if you're doing something on TikTok, it'll stop the scroll. So you'll have women putting on makeup, you know, while they're talking or just.
- [14:06]
B
Even walking while they're holding the camera.
- [14:08]
C
Right?
- [14:08]
B
Yeah.
- [14:09]
C
You're walking, talk.
- [14:10]
B
Right.
- [14:10]
C
Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who's been studying the brain for some four decades, told me. Carmine, that's not. That's not surprising, because movement captures your attention. It's evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore you focus on it. That's the hook. They're calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same. People want to know almost immediately. Now, let's separate this from the movement. I don't want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it's three seconds or seven seconds, there's a lot of questions about that research as well. So don't just say it's three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. Well, I've always, you know, 10,000 steps doesn't necessarily. It's more like 7,300 steps.
- [15:09]
B
Right.
- [15:09]
C
10,000 sounds better. Okay, so let's go with three or seven seconds. I've talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person? Friend or foe? And the other question it's asking is, should I consume energy listening to this person? Of course, Hook, that's a good point. Look, I don't care if you start within three seconds or seven seconds. But I think the point is well established. Grab people's attention early. You're not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the who done it for the end. Grab people's attention early.
- [15:55]
B
Yeah. Character development needs to be later. Right. You know, I've always said, because a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think this is same true of the hook is your hook can be as long as it is not boring as it is entertaining as it is addressing the problem that I'm trying to fix. I mean, so I think that's how you have to look at it, is people tune out because they're like, this isn't for me, me.
- [16:17]
C
Exactly. People don't tune out because it's an hour long podcast. They tune out because it's boring.
- [16:24]
B
Right.
- [16:25]
C
And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like Podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people's attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you'd have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or. Or topic. But most people in general, and this is something else that's well established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, if. Why go on for an hour? If you're giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don't take 45 minutes. Deliver it in 15 minutes, wait for the Q and A. And if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they'll be much happier because they got some time back during their day.
- [17:18]
B
You're a hero. So from the neuroscience, is there anything. Were there any surprising insights that. That particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they're trying to be persuasive?
- [17:30]
C
Yeah, there were so many.
- [17:31]
B
The.
- [17:31]
C
One of the reasons why I really enjoyed doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn't know. And I'm obsessed with this. I've been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now. I'm obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI. And I think this is key. And. Well, the reason why I didn't know is because it is new. Most people don't know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they're an AI expert and they. They know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don't believe it. Don't believe it, because no one really does know.
- [18:17]
B
Well, it's also changes every day, too.
- [18:20]
C
Changes every day. But the neuroscientist will tell you that here's the interesting thing about AI. AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination. So set aside that, that whole argument about, is it conscious, is it sentient, is it emotional, is it human? No.
- [18:44]
B
Is it even intelligence?
- [18:46]
C
No.
- [18:46]
B
Right.
- [18:48]
C
Most scientists, most neuroscientists, kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know it's different. But here's what they taught me, and here's a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written think different.
- [19:12]
B
Right.
- [19:13]
C
And then connect. Think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela, like the now famous Apple ad. And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for ChatGPT and OpenAI. Why, why would not. Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that's too creative. AI. Here's what I was told. AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works precisely because it breaks the rules and that catches people's attention because people like rule breakers like Steve Jobs. It's really fascinating, John, but if you start giving delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve. If you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice. And then everything becomes AI. Slope know you've heard of that term, right? AI generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you've got to stand out. You've got to be distinct. How be uniquely human.
- [20:37]
B
Yeah.
- [20:37]
C
And celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice.
- [20:43]
B
So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do a lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview?
- [20:55]
C
Richard Branson.
- [20:56]
B
Okay.
- [20:57]
C
I have Richard Branson in this audio book, too. Richard Branson loves storytelling. And, you know, he's just a fun guy. He's really down to earth for being a guy who's worth billions of dollars in a great virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audiobook, and that's what I liked about audiobooks. I could actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just a printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it's very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his. He tried to. He was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon. And the first time it crashed off the coast of Ireland. And it was pretty dramatic. And so I've got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene they almost lost their lives. I mean, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson in Only the Way Branson can, said, actually it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with Virgin on it. And he said, carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story. You need tension. You need the mistakes and failures along the way. Brilliant. But he was looking at it from a marketing perspective. He said it was a much better story.
- [22:31]
B
Well, Carvine, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices.
- [22:41]
C
It's Viral Voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you'd like to know more about me or simply contact me if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo, I'm very easy to find on the Internet. You can go to carminegallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well.
- [23:01]
B
My, my parents did not drink much, but if they drank it was Gallo wine.
- [23:07]
C
There's a lot better wine these days. But I appreciate but I like my wine.
- [23:14]
B
Well, again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
- [23:18]
C
You bet. Thanks, John.
- [23:29]
A
Hey, if your 2025 marketing felt more like a scramble than a system, well, you're not alone. You stayed busy, clients showed up, but even you're not really sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope without a clear strategy. You're just throwing tactics at the wall. And that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ducktape Marketing, is opening a few strategy first calls for service based business owners. These one on one sessions are for those who already have clients but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency and direction. In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. The sponsor limited book yours now at DTM World Fast Start. That's DTM World Fast Start.