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The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast
Lifting the Founder’s Curse: Unlocking Business Value Beyond Yourself
00:22:51
Unlock scalable business growth with Ryan Deiss as he shares insights on crushing the Founder's Curse, mapping value engines, and implementing a winning meeting rhythm. Transform your business with actionable strategies!
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- [00:01]
Unknown Speaker
Let me ask you a few things. Do you feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.
- [01:20]
John Jantz
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz. My guest today is Ryan Deiss. He's a serial entrepreneur, author and investor, and the founder and CEO of the scalable company digitalmarketer.com and a founding partner at Scalable Equity LLC. He's also the founder and host of Traffic and Conversion Summit, the largest digital marketing conference in North America. Today we're going to talk about a new book called get scalable the operating system your business needs to run and scale without you. So, Ryan, welcome back.
- [01:56]
Ryan Deiss
Thanks for having me. Good to be here.
- [01:58]
John Jantz
So I want to start right off the bat and actually you do in the book start off with this idea of the founder's curse. So it sounds so evil. I think we ought to start there and have you kind of unpack what that is and how that impacts so many entrepreneurs.
- [02:11]
Ryan Deiss
It kind of is evil. I mean, the Founders curse states that the more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is. And that is one of the harshest truths for any entrepreneur to have to come face to face with. Because most of us got into this game because we were independent minded and we had our specific idea and we wanted to do it our way and we sort of wanted to stay that way. And it can as long as your business stays small. But your business, if it only, you know, if you're always the most valuable person in your business, then your business will never be that valuable. I don't care how awesome you are.
- [02:41]
John Jantz
So, yeah. Yeah. So a lot of authors, you know, come to things on their own and discover things on their own, and when they write about them, they almost become a little bit autobiographical. I have heard you. You talk at length about, you know, some of your challenges in your business. I mean, would you say that some of what you've developed in this book came about from, like, all of us, the mistakes that you made along the way?
- [03:03]
Ryan Deiss
Absolutely. This book was kind of one part trying to write the book that I wish I had when I was scaling my business and two parts therapy, because, you know, go back to 2016 and I, you know, I don't know how much your listeners will know about me, but in general, out there in the world, I'm known as a marketer. I'm a growth guy. I mean, founder of DigitalMarketer.com Traffic and Conversion Summit. In general, when I speak, I'm talking about marketing. It's how you and I get to know each other.
- [03:26]
John Jantz
Yeah.
- [03:27]
Ryan Deiss
But in 2016, I had to learn the hard lesson that growth isn't everything. I had that year I had three different companies within our portfolio group that all grew enough to hit the Inc. 500 or 5000 list. Of those three companies, one of them went on to experience really great success. It had a profitable exit, and the remainder of that business is still very profitable and successful today. One of those businesses failed after a number of years because the. Our partner in the business, the CEO, wouldn't get out of his own way. And that business kind of went flatline, trudged along, and a couple years ago was sold to a competitor for basically nothing. The other business failed spectacularly. And within about three months of appearing on the list, we had to lay off 180 people. And within another six months, the business was fundamentally bankruptcy. That business was the one that grew the fastest. And so the lesson I had to learn there is that growth isn't everything. And. And that same year that all that was happening, if somebody were to look at from the outside in, they'd be like, oh, you're very successful. Businesses are growing. You must be doing well. I wasn't. I was making less money than ever.
- [04:31]
John Jantz
Yeah.
- [04:31]
Ryan Deiss
Because money was getting poured back in. I was working longer, and it was. I mean, I was missing family dinners, I was missing dance recitals. And it wasn't until I came home after midnight one night, my wife was like, hey, look, you can keep doing what you're doing. I know who I married, but you can't pretend like you're doing it for us anymore. Because we just want you. This is ridiculous. That was kind of the wake up call that I had. And so, yeah, man, it's. It all came from pain.
- [04:54]
John Jantz
So this book is, I mean, you have sort of a linear fashion to like the stuff that you, you know, that you build and the frameworks that you build here. And this book is, you know, literally we could go chapter by chapter and you'd say, yeah, that's next. And that's next. And that's next. Which, you know, obviously makes it, you know, easy on my standpoint to just kind of break it down that way. But let's start with the, you know, the, probably the basis of the entire book is this operating system viewpoint. So talk a little bit about that and how that applies to, you know, anybody trying to build a business.
- [05:25]
Ryan Deiss
Yeah, the fundamental thing that I like, every business has an operating system. The problem is that in most businesses, the operating system is the CEO, it's a uos, right? So if you're the CEO, if you're the founder, you are the operating system and the operating system is you. So what we're trying to do through the book is going back to the founder's curse is to make the founder less, quote, unquote, valuable to the business. It doesn't mean they don't still add value, that they aren't still important. But we got to get it to a point where if they're not there, the business can still go on. This is not a new concept. Plenty of books have been written on this very concept. Where I think mo all the other books either got it wrong or just it was incomplete, is they started from the perspective of goal setting. Right? So if we're going to build an operating system, we first have to decide, you know, what is this business going to achieve and then how are we going to do it and what are the projects and the people and the meetings and all that stuff. I think I've just, I've tried that. It doesn't work. What works is answering the question, how do we create value in the marketplace? How do we capture and create marketplace value? And that's just not just a question to answer, you know, broadly for us. We want to answer that question visually. And so the very first step that we do when working with customers or clients after we acquire a business. What I talk about in the book is to map what's known as your value engine, business process maps. How do you get customers and clients and what do you do with them once you got them, how do you serve them, how do you sell them? How do you serve them? And we want to visually map that in flowchart form. Then we can start building an operating system around that. So we don't give people an operating system and say, plug your business into it. We don't say, what are your goals? And then give you a meeting rhythm as though that's an operating system.
- [07:00]
John Jantz
It's not.
- [07:00]
Ryan Deiss
We start from how your business creates value and build an operating system around the value creation process.
- [07:06]
John Jantz
And I think what I love about that too, is it automatically creates priorities, you know, creating those value engines. You know, a lot of people talk about, like, mapping processes and things, and they, like, go down this rabbit hole of, okay, well, we got 670 things, you know, here that we do. You know, let's map them all. And when you really break it down to those two value engines or those two categories of value engines, it sort of focuses the attention. Right? I mean, those. That's the only thing to focus on. If those aren't done, nothing, none of that other stuff matters. I mean, would you say that's an accurate assessment of kind of what value engines do to a business?
- [07:40]
Ryan Deiss
Absolutely. And that is the goal. The goal is to get, you know, as businesses scale, they get more complex, and as systems get more complex, they start to break down. So I think one of the biggest things that we're looking to do is to decomplicate this stuff. And the way you do that is by asking first principles questions. And so a question of, okay, how do customers happen? Just how do they happen? A lot of businesses could generally explain it, but can you show me? And so if you can show me in flowchart form, okay, well, they see an ad on Instagram or Facebook, and when they do that, then they go to this landing page, and then if they opt in, then this happens. And if they don't, they get put on a retargeting list, and then they go through this whole process, and then eventually down the road, they give us money. Great. Now what you can do is you could say, of these different processes, what are the ones of these stages within this value flow? What do we want to make sure that we get right every time? Okay, now we can build an SOP or a checklist or what we call a playbook around just that, not everything, just that. You can also ask the question, who is uniquely responsible or accountable to each of these stages that's going to define your hiring plan and job descriptions. You can say, how do we know this stuff's working? That creates your Scorecards, all of these things combined are what form a company operating system. But at the foundation of all of it is just answering the question, how do we capture and create marketplace value?
- [08:54]
John Jantz
So break it down again. You're essentially saying there's two value engines like fulfillment and you know, how we get a customer, or are there always that?
- [09:06]
Ryan Deiss
So for most businesses at scale, let's say you're over $10 million in revenue, you're probably going to have two, maybe three growth engines because maybe you've got a growth engine where you're doing, you know, online media buying and then maybe you've got another growth engine where maybe you have an outbound sales motion or maybe you have one where you're doing trade shows and it just is a different flow. Customers happen differently depending on the entry point of the, you know, you might have fundamentally different value in growth engines for your different products in your product line. But I'll tell you, John, I mean, we run really large companies, mid eight figure businesses, I say really large by small, medium sized business standards. Figure businesses, it's rare for them to have more than three or four growth engines. It's rare for them to have more than a couple fulfillment engines. It's just rare. Most of them will map, you know, they start to look the same. Most, most big successful businesses are actually pretty simple if you pull all the crud away.
- [10:00]
John Jantz
So let's drill down into a business of yours that I'm somewhat familiar with, Digital Marketer. So, you know, essentially that started as, you know, one type of offering, right? And that was if you'd have done a value engine for that, you'd have mapped out the fulfillment of that offer. But then you decided, oh, we could have this kind of thing or we could license agencies to do different. How do you add things when you realize there are other opportunities then, I mean, do those just become new engines?
- [10:25]
Ryan Deiss
So usually when you add new products to your product line, they become new squares on the existing, on the existing growth engine. So somebody will come through and you'll say, well, what happens when somebody buys this? Let's just say when they become a member of Digital Marketer Lab, let's say become a member of Digital Marketer Lab. That's kind of our kind of main membership at Digital Marketer. Once they bought that we've sold them everything that we can sell them, we're done. Well, wouldn't it be better if we kept selling them stuff like for all involved? Okay, well what else can we sell them? Well, there's a lot of Agencies who are joining this program, who they would like to license this. So what if we had a certified partner program now that doesn't. But in the beginning stages, it probably doesn't have its own fulfillment engine. What we're probably going to do is market this program to our existing clients so it becomes another stage. And now it's after somebody's bought this, let's try to sell them this. If they buy it, then they go into a different fulfillment engine. If they don't, then that's that. And then once it exists now, you'll say, let's give this its own dedicated growth engine. It's almost always going to have its own dedicated fulfillment engine though.
- [11:33]
John Jantz
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- [11:36]
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- [12:26]
John Jantz
Right, Right. Because something has to happen when somebody says yes. Right. You know, I want to buy that. Right? Yeah. Going to skip around a little bit, but this is probably everything you're talking about. A lot of businesses need to build. But I would say if you were going to ask a hundred businesses, the place where they say they struggle the most is with people, teams, you know, getting output, getting, you know, productivity. So you have a very somewhat systematic approach to really not only the recruitment and, you know, onboarding of folks, but how to make sure that they're actually performing. You want to unpack the high output team approach.
- [13:01]
Ryan Deiss
Sure. So I'll say that the two mistakes that most entrepreneur CEOs make, number one, they find a problem, a challenge, a constraint in the business and they just hire someone and they basically hurl them at that problem. So like we've got this issue, we're going to hire Bob, we're going to throw Bob at it. And the problem with this is, number one, Bob doesn't know how to Solve that problem day one. And number two, you don't know. You don't have the time to teach him. And you might also not know how to solve it either. Hence the reason it's not solved and you need Bob. And so we'll hire people to solve problems that we don't know how to solve, they don't know how to solve. And so we get frustrated with them. We say, you know, I don't know why I hire all these people. I should just do it myself. The other challenge, that mistake that we'll make with people is we'll go to individuals and we'll ask them, hey, what do you do? You know, I want to make sure that everybody's on task, and I want to make sure that we're measuring your performance. So what do you do and how do you think? What are the metrics that you believe we should track you by? And we do this at an individual level. That doesn't work. Okay, here's what does work. Go back to the value creation flow, the value engine that you mapped. And don't start with the individual and say, what does this person do? And don't start with a problem and say, who can we get to solve this problem? Go back to your value creation process and say, okay, back to state step number one of this flowchart. Who or whom are uniquely accountable responsible for getting this one done the right way? Then based on that description, you would put, we call it a critical accountability bullet. You're gonna say, okay, well, you know, we got Jim, and Jim is our media buyer. Okay, so Jim needs to run and optimize Facebook and Instagram ads. Got it. Okay, we're gonna keep going. What about this next one? Ah, the landing page. Okay, well, that's gonna be Fred. Fred is gonna build and track landing page conversion rate. Got it. So we don't start with the person and ask, what do they do? We start with the value creation process and ask, who does this? In doing that, you're essentially building job descriptions in reverse. And now what you can do is you can ask the person, how do we know that all this stuff is working? Now we can begin to build scorecards. Again, not based on an individual's performance, but based on the flow through one of these particular value engines. In doing that, if you start with the value creation process and work backwards to the individual, you figure out a couple things. Number one, you figure out the people who are overwhelmed with a lot of work. And very often, as the founder, CEO, it's you who's Responsible for this? Me. What about the next step? Me. What about the next one? Me. And you're giving yourself all these critical accountability bullets. But now you can look at it and say, who can I hand these off to? Or who can I hire to bring this in? So it'll inform your hiring plan. If you don't have the people or who needs help on your team, whether it's. You're also going to find some people who are superstars but they don't have a lot of work, you know, and you can diamonds in the rough. You're also going to find people on your team who, they talk a good game, they are good at politics, but they really don't do anything. And this uncovers all of that. And so yes, don't start with the person asks what do they do. Start with the value creation process and ask who does this. You find out who your real players are.
- [15:57]
John Jantz
Yeah. You get more than about 10 people and it's. And people can start hiding, can't they? I mean, in terms of, you know, what actually gets done. And we fill up the time so it seems like everybody's busy. But you know, when you really do map them to those critical things, it's like, what are you busy at? Right. And I think that's.
- [16:12]
Ryan Deiss
Right.
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John Jantz
I think that's a really key metric.
- [16:14]
Ryan Deiss
And that's the other piece to that point. Once you've done the value engine audit and said who's responsible for all these things now you can go to individuals and you can ask them what are you currently doing that isn't reflected on this?
- [16:25]
John Jantz
Yeah.
- [16:26]
Ryan Deiss
And you will just find that they're doing all these things that just don't matter. And sometimes because they thought that it mattered, sometimes because some manager two years ago told them they should do it. And so they just kept doing it because that's what they were told to do.
- [16:39]
John Jantz
Yep.
- [16:40]
Ryan Deiss
You can find all these things that people are doing that are either disconnected from a value creation process that you can plug in. I'll give you an example. We had a content marketing manager who was producing five to seven pieces of content for one of our websites, for one of our blogs every single week. Exactly. None of those content pieces was directing back to some type of lead capture mechanism. None of them. And so it was this orphaned activity that it didn't come up when we were auditing our growth engine because nobody opted in for anything. As a result of this, we were able to say, well, either stop doing this or we gotta get marketing to come over and start adding Some of these things because it doesn't make any sense. It wound up being a whole lot of free leads that we had missed and got back.
- [17:22]
John Jantz
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you mentioned it a couple times. Everybody's least favorite thing and that is meetings. You have a fairly particular take on meeting rhythm. So you want to unpack that one.
- [17:34]
Ryan Deiss
Yeah. So one thing I really don't like doing is having some kind of 10 year, big, hairy, audacious goal for small and medium sized businesses. You have no idea where you're going to be. If you want to set a company purpose, I love that. I think every company should have a core purpose. If you want to call that a vision or a mission, fine. We don't because nobody ever agrees on what those things are. So we just say, what is your company purpose? And that should be something that really doesn't have a timeline. So that's as big as we get when we're doing goal setting. We're going to set a three year target. I love three years because it is enough time to do something really big and meaningful, but not so long that you can't imagine it. So that's kind of meeting number one. About every three years. We're going to set a three year target. Right. Pretty simple. Now we take those three years and we break them up into 1290 day sprints, 12 quarterly sprints. Because there are obviously four quarters in a year. Three years, four quarters, 12. And so every quarter we're going to do what we call our quarterly sprint planning meeting. And this is where we look at our three year target and we ask the question, what needs to be true that isn't true today? What are those actions, these key initiatives that need to be completed to get us closer to that goal? And so we're going to usually come up with three to five of those. We're going to assign tasks and responsibilities. We're going to get clear on the metrics that we really want to focus on optimizing. We're going to set up a goal for that quarter. And so. And that's a one to two day deal. So every 90 days we got a one to two day planning meeting. By the way, if you're planning every 90 days, you don't need to do an annual plan. So that there ain't. That isn't a part of my planning process.
- [19:04]
John Jantz
Right, right.
- [19:05]
Ryan Deiss
There's gonna three year target.
- [19:06]
John Jantz
The annual part just flies by to the next quarter. Right.
- [19:08]
Ryan Deiss
It's amazing. It's gonna show up about once every four quarters and that's important because so many people do annual planning in December when you're like the most optimistic, the most hopeful. It's like going grocery shopping when you're hungry. Like it's just not a good time to do it. I'm, by the way, I'm fine if you wanna do an annual financial performa. Fine. Like fine. But in terms of your strategic plans and what are you going to get done? Do that on a 90 day planning rhythm. Now once we've done that, we have a monthly business review. And so each month we'll get together and look at our scorecards. And then every week each team, including the leadership team, is going to have a scorecard meeting. Now that's, that may sound like a lot of meetings, but in reality, if you're meeting to look at scorecards, right? And we got a rule, no scorecard, no recurring meeting. So we're meeting once a week at the leadership level. And then the teams are also meeting to discuss their scorecards to see are they doing the things that need to get done. Are they, are we achieving the metrics, are the projects we're doing having an impact? You know, is that happening? It's not. Then we can schedule an ad hoc meeting to discuss how do we improve, how do we optimize. It's amazing when you meet, when you have a regular meeting rhythm, you actually have less meetings. You don't need as many ad hoc because you know the next one's a week away. You know that you're going to have an opportunity to discuss any necessarily like pivots and tweaks to the plan at the quarterly business review. I'm sorry, at the monthly business review. And then at the next quarter you're going to reset plans and priorities. So somebody comes in with, we need to do this now. Do we really? Or can that wait till next quarter? And so that's our planning rhythm. Weekly scorecard meetings, monthly review and pivot meetings, quarterly strategic planning meetings. And every three years we're setting our targets.
- [20:54]
John Jantz
Yeah, and I like the term rhythm because that's really what it ends up feeling like once you get into it, right. It's like, no, this is, this is just humming along this way you, this whole process, the book, everything that you do is very tool driven. You've got a few tools that, that you give away. So I guess this is the point in the show where I'd invite you to, you know, lead us to where, where we need to go to find the book, to find the tools, to find out more about connecting with you.
- [21:16]
Ryan Deiss
Yeah, I mean, so you can get the book at Amazon or anywhere books are sold. Mostly Amazon though. And. But if you, when you, if you were to buy the book and open the book, right there inside the flap, there is a link to getscalable.com and what this gives you is all the tools that we use internally for, to create our own operating system. And so it is the same tools that we use now. I want to clarify something. These tools aren't always overly fancy. We're talking Google sheets, but they're what we use. So our scorecards are all manual and that's by design. We want people to manually input their numbers so they know their numbers. We want them to manually decide is this red, yellow or green? So that they're the ones who are objectively thinking like, are we ahead of schedule? Are we behind? What do I think? You know, I want people to own their stuff. And so. But yeah, what we're giving you is here all the exact same tools that we use internally. The book is going to teach you how to use them, how to deploy them, how to install them. But we're not up charging or anything like that for the tools themselves. I thought about it. The marketer in me was like, ooh, let me have a book that tells them how to do it, but tells.
- [22:19]
John Jantz
Them what to do.
- [22:19]
Ryan Deiss
The person, yeah, exactly what, that's what the marketer me want to do. But I said like this, I wanted to write the book that I wish I had and I didn't want to leave anything out. And so we just went ahead and gave you all the tools.
- [22:30]
John Jantz
And I'm sure when people get the book, they're also going to find out that this is something they can't hire a coach for as well.
- [22:36]
Ryan Deiss
Right? Yeah. Obviously if you want our help actually building out the operating system in your business, we would love to do that. We've had plenty of clients though, self, you know, self administrate and you certainly can do that, do that as well. But yes, if you want help, we do have a team of people behind the scenes that are, that would love nothing more than to work with you and actually getting this implemented because the tools are good, the setup is good. But that last little bit of figuring out how do we specifically implement this in your business? You know, some one on one help can be useful there.
- [23:06]
John Jantz
Yeah, absolutely. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping the the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.
- [23:13]
Ryan Deiss
Right.
- [23:18]
Unknown Speaker
Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely how what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.