Outsmarting AI: Secrets to Human-Centered Marketing

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast – "Outsmarting AI: Secrets to Human-Centered Marketing"

Episode Overview

In the episode titled "Outsmarting AI: Secrets to Human-Centered Marketing," host Jon Chance engages in a profound conversation with marketing futurist and bestselling author Mark Schaefer. Schaefer delves into the intricate relationship between artificial intelligence (AI) and human-centric marketing, exploring how businesses can leverage uniquely human traits to thrive in an AI-dominated landscape. Drawing from his latest book, Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World, Schaefer provides actionable insights and real-world examples to empower marketers to create meaningful connections with their audiences.

Key Themes and Discussions

1. The Genesis of Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World

   Timestamp: [01:51]

   Mark Schaefer explains that his book was born out of a pressing need to address how humans can maintain their relevance in an era where AI is rapidly advancing. He states, “We’re trying to discern where do humans fit in this new AI-dominant world” ([02:02]). Schaefer emphasizes that while performance marketing—such as SEO and advertising—is crucial, the industry has neglected the "heart and soul of marketing," which lies in human connection.

2. The Importance of Human Connection in Marketing

   Timestamp: [04:15]

   Schaefer critiques the current marketing landscape for being overly reliant on performance metrics, which has led to a diminished focus on fostering genuine human relationships. He highlights overlooked areas like word-of-mouth and experiential marketing, asserting, “We’ve become sort of intoxicated with performance marketing... we’ve kind of forgot about the heart and soul of marketing, which is this human connection” ([04:00]).

3. Impact of the Pandemic on Consumer Behavior

   Timestamp: [05:02]

   The conversation shifts to how the COVID-19 pandemic has altered societal behaviors, leading to increased isolation and a preference for independent media consumption. Schaefer observes, “When you and I were growing up... we have a world without shared experiences” ([06:00]). This shift underscores the need for marketers to create shared, meaningful experiences to bridge the growing sense of loneliness.

4. Creating Shared Experiences and Everyday Awe

   Timestamp: [07:53]

   Schaefer introduces the concept of "everyday awe" as a strategy to enhance human-centered marketing. Drawing from social psychologist Dacher Keltner’s work, he explains how shared experiences can generate emotional connections and collective effervescence. “It creates this emotional contagion of awe... absolutely missing from an entire generation today” ([07:53]).

   • Example: The Uprising Retreat

     Timestamp: [10:36]

     Schaefer shares his personal experience organizing an intimate marketing retreat called the Uprising. Unlike his previous large-scale event, the Uprising hosts only 30 participants, fostering deep connections through activities like hiking and shared gourmet meals. He recounts feedback labeling the event as "life-changing" ([10:45]), illustrating the power of creating awe-inspiring, shared experiences.

5. Humanizing AI in Marketing

   Timestamp: [14:00]

   A significant portion of the discussion revolves around how marketers can "humanize" their strategies in the age of AI. Schaefer posits that AI, while capable of generating content, cannot replicate the unpredictability and emotional depth of human creativity. He advises disrupting traditional marketing narratives by altering the story, its delivery, or the storyteller to stand out amidst AI-generated noise.

   • Notable Quote: “If you disrupt one of those things, you would be doing something that AI isn't really thinking about right now” ([08:49]).

6. Changing Consumer Interaction with AI

   Timestamp: [15:43]

   Schaefer underscores that AI is not only transforming business processes but also altering how consumers interact with content and make decisions. He notes a tendency for consumers to prefer AI-driven interactions that require less effort, potentially leading to "synthetic relationships" where AI serves as a comfort without the complexities of human relationships. “People don’t want to do the work. They’re averse to deep thinking, and so they’re going to abdicate that in many cases to AI” ([17:28]).

7. Innovative Approaches and Case Studies

   Timestamp: [19:06]

   Schaefer presents unconventional marketing strategies, such as associating brands with unexpected themes to disrupt market norms. He cites Liquid Death, a beverage brand that defies traditional water marketing by linking its product to the concept of death, creating a shocking and memorable brand image. “The number one lesson I ever learned in marketing class, never associate your brand with death” ([22:36]).

8. Practical Steps for Marketers

   Timestamp: [21:36]

   In wrapping up, Schaefer offers actionable advice for marketers aiming to embrace human-centered strategies:

   • Start with “Wrong”: Challenge conventional wisdom by assuming typical approaches are incorrect and explore innovative alternatives.
   • Create Intimacy: Focus on building close, personal connections rather than broad, impersonal interactions.
   • Foster Emotional Contagion: Design experiences that evoke strong emotions and foster a sense of community.

   He emphasizes that "every market can be disrupted today because it’s so boring, especially in B2B" ([22:36]).

Notable Quotes

• “We have this technology that’s nipping at the heels of our skill sets. In some cases, nipping at the heels are very careers.” – Mark Schaefer ([02:02])

• “If you're merely competent, you're vulnerable. Competent is ignorable and marketing really is. It is.” – Mark Schaefer ([04:00])

• “Think about what you can do with your customer interactions... What if your marketing plan was add more awe?” – Mark Schaefer ([14:00])

• “Never associate your brand with death.” – Mark Schaefer ([22:36])

Conclusions and Insights

Mark Schaefer's insights in "Outsmarting AI: Secrets to Human-Centered Marketing" present a compelling case for the resurgence of human-centric strategies in marketing. By emphasizing shared experiences, emotional connections, and innovative disruption, marketers can differentiate their brands in an increasingly AI-saturated market. Schaefer challenges the industry to prioritize human connection over mere performance metrics, advocating for "audacious" approaches that resonate on a deeper emotional level.

Additional Resources

For listeners interested in delving deeper into Mark Schaefer's strategies and insights, his book Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World offers comprehensive guidance. Additionally, his blog "Grow," podcast "The Marketing Companion," and website Businesses Grow provide valuable resources and further exploration of human-centered marketing in the digital age.

Transcript

[Mark Schaefer]

I was like this. I found it. I found it. This is what I've been looking for, I can honestly say has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It's changed the results that I'm seeing. It's changed my engagement with clients. It's changed my engagement with the team. I couldn't be happier. Honestly. It's the best investment I ever made.

[Jon Chance]

What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing Certification intensive program for fractional CMOs, marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could use our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM World Scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It's time to transform your approach. Book your call today. DTM World slash scale.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Chance. My guest today is Mark Schaefer. He's a futurist and the best selling author of several influential marketing books including the Content Code Known and Marketing Rebellion. He's a marketing strategy consultant to many of the world's leading brands and acclaimed keynote speaker and a college educator. His blog Grow is one of the most acclaimed marketing blogs globally and his podcast, the Marketing Companion is In the top 1% of all business shows on itunes. But we're going to talk about his latest book today, Audacious How Humans Win in an AI Marketing. So Mark, why welcome back to the show. You've been on several times.

[Mark Schaefer]

Several times, almost a regular.

[Jon Chance]

So I like to start with the title a lot of times. What was kind of the genesis of that for you? Or is there something going on in the world today that says we need to be more audacious?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, you know, when I never have a plan or schedule to write a book, I only write a book when I see some problem going on that I, that I get curious about. And the problem I see today is that we're trying to discern where do humans fit in this new AI dominant world. And we have this technology that's nipping at the heels of our skill sets. In some cases, nipping at the heels are very careers. And so I really needed to unwind and unpack. Where are we going to fit? Where are we going to thrive? So really the main idea of this book is to explore the parts. And by the way, I mean, I'm not sugarcoating this saying, oh, Kumbaya, it's all going to be great. I'm saying, no, no, Kumbaya. You know, there's some serious things going on, but there are some places that really are uniquely human and have been somewhat overlooked in the, in the marketing sphere, in the marketing portfolio. I think we've become sort of intoxicated with performance marketing. And I mean, it's important. And I'm talking about SEO and ads and optimizing, you know, our content and our, and our, and our, and our ad purchases. That, that's very, very important. But as we've kind of overcompensated with that, we've kind of forgot about the heart and soul of marketing, which is this human connection. And so in the book, I look at things like word of mouth marketing, which we know is really important, but I would suggest almost nobody listening to this today has a line item on their budget for word of mouth marketing. I talk about experiential marketing and this idea of shared experiences, which is the, with this lonely, depressed world saying we want more shared experiences. And that again, is a uniquely human thing. And the overarching umbrella, I guess, is this word, you know, audacious. Because if you're merely competent, you're vulnerable. Competent is ignorable and marketing really is. Is. I have research in the book that shows in general how dull marketing and advertising is. Is. And there is an opportunity to like, shed that skin and really ignite something a little crazy because, you know, the bots are coming, but we still own crazy.

[Jon Chance]

Again, I find myself blaming the pandemic for so many things on this show when I talk about changes and you know, there, there are societal changes that I think occurred during that period.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

That like I sit in a restaurant now waiting on my food to come and I watch the line and stream of people who come in and pick up their, to go order and run back to their car.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

And I. That came, I think, from the pandemic, a lot of that. But I also, you know, we talk about this need for human interaction, but you almost feel like people are actually withdrawing farther by choice.

[Mark Schaefer]

I agree with you. I think remote working is another sort of symptom of something that occurred with the pandemic. This idea of maybe more comfort with isolation. I think the other thing is that today each of us can be our own independent media streaming channel. So we can experience our entire world by ourselves through earbuds. We can stream all the movies and TV and music and books that we love and nobody else even has ever heard of the things that we're experiencing. And that's a key idea in this book that Compared to when you and I were growing up as kids, we have a world without shared experiences. When I was a kid, you had to save your money for a record album. And once you got that record album, people would come over to your house to listen to it. You'd play it over and over again. You'd sing the words, you know, on the, on the liner notes. If you wanted to see a movie, you had to find somebody that had a car. You climb in the car, and then you'd have pizza afterwards. And the whole thing is a social experience that is, you know, absolutely missing from an entire generation today. And they're crying out for shared experiences. And that's something that we can add in our marketing portfolio. When you bring people together in a meaningful way, and it doesn't have to be an activation, it could even be the way you hold meetings. If you bring people together in this meaningful way, that creates, you know, some sort of electric kind of experience. It creates this thing called collective effervescence. It's this emotional contagion of awe. It's everyday awe of being with people and creating something new. And I think that is one of the most overlooked opportunities in marketing today.

[Jon Chance]

One of the core ideas of the book is that we have to think about out humaning AI. Did I say that right? So how do we do that? I mean, it's not through iq. So how do we do that?

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, I mean, isn't that weird that when you think about it, that this is the first time in history where a technology has come along and we can't take another class to transcend it? Right. I mean, we're not going to be smarter than AI. And so the idea behind the book is one of the biggest issues. Well, it's the biggest issue for any business today or any marketing professional today is how is awareness? How do we stand out as the signal against the noise? And again, AI is making that even.

[Jon Chance]

Worse, make a lot of noise.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's making endless, infinite noise. So, so how. What can we do? And what I did, John, is I got to meet the greatest creatives in the world. And there's a story in the book is kind of like how I started down this path and one door open and another door open. And it was just incredible gift, this amazing experience. And I got to learn what are the patterns? Is there something we can learn from their success that's scalable to every business? And what I found is that there is. So your marketing message, the story that you tell the world has three parts. It's the story, the narrative. It's where we tell it and it's who tells it. Now, what if we disrupted one of those things? We would be doing something that AI isn't really thinking about right now. AI is looking at the whole world and kind of giving you, trying to average it, the best average answer of everything that's happened in the past. But if you disrupt it and do something unexpected now, you are moving toward a path where you're going to stand out. And so the book is full of case studies, full of prompts. Big companies, small companies, big budgets, no budgets, nonprofits. So there's something in there for everybody to sort of like explore these patterns and apply it to a business or an organization, any size.

[Jon Chance]

Give me an example, if you, if you can think of one off top of your head, of how a company or a brand can, can really embrace this idea of everyday awe.

[Mark Schaefer]

Everyday awe. Well, the example that I think is most relevant and personal to me, and I think this would be relevant to, to anybody, is so I hold a marketing retreat every year called the Uprising. And the problem I solve with this is, as you know, I used to have this event called Social Slam. You were there, and, I mean, I was having 600, 700 people, and it was just a blur and it was stressful and I didn't like it. So I created this new event some years later. It's limited to 30 people, so it's intimate. And we're talking about our relevance in the future of marketing. Now. I put my heart and soul into this, and I think I did a good job. But when I got the feedback of the event, people told me something completely unexpected. They said this was life changing. I thought, what? What? Life changing? I mean, isn't that a little heavy? But I heard this over and over again, and I never really had an explanation until I connected the dots with this idea of collective effervescence. So in this group, these 30 people, we hike together in the woods, we eat together, gourmet food, and we actually, it's shared, family style, right? We create. Every single moment is created to heighten interaction, to build on ideas. And as I read, you know, this idea of collective effervescence, I got this from this book called Awe by social psychologist Dacher Keltner. And all of a sudden, okay, wait a minute. That's the difference. It's this intimacy. It, it's this, this, this emotional contagion that's happening at my event that makes it unlike anything else. And so my marketing plan is add more Awe. So you know, it's like, how do I do it even better? How do I create even more of these magical moments that create, you know, new ideas and epiphanies in the people that are there. Just the pure joy of listening to music or, you know, singing together or something like that. You know, what, what can I do to even add more off? That's the marketing plan for my event. And so I challenge people in the book. You know, think about what you can do with your customer interactions with your meetings, with, you know, with, with customer events. What if your marketing plan was add more awe? How would that change the dynamic and make you into something different, something conversational, something unmissable, which is what we need to do today?

[Jon Chance]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know, what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's, that's DTM World Grow and, and.

And the lesson of course for that is, I mean that's the brand people want to gravitate towards. Right. And I think that one of the things that that's, you know, everybody talks about this platform or this new tool or this new technology and how marketing's changed, but I've, I've felt for the last 10 years the way people buy has changed more and that that's what we ought to be paying more attention to. And I think that that's going to even be more relevant, you know, because they're able, you know, think about how they could cut through all the noise.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

Like they can take our 50 page ebook and say, give me the four. They can consume with AI as well as we can produce with AI. And I think that that gives them even more leverage to only interact with brands that, as you say, create everyday awe.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, and that's an extraordinary point that is, that is quite profound, John, is that, you know, a lot of the conversations out there, a lot of the content out there is about how AI is changing our business and changing our workflow. It's creating a lot of new tools to perhaps unleash creativity. But we also need to be thinking about. Exactly. What you're saying is that AI is also changing consumer behavior. It's changing how it's going to consume our content. It's going to change how people make decisions, because generally speaking, people don't want to do the work. They're averse to deep thinking, and so they're going to abdicate that in many cases to AI. I think the idea of truth is going to be sort of mixed up and we may be turning AI to AI, you know, to truth. So I think that's, that's a very. It's a big idea and certainly a worthy conversation about how.

[Jon Chance]

Why don't we just collaborate on another book, Mark, you and I? Okay, well, let's write that book.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jon Chance]

Well, I saw some research the other day, and they were talking about just a year ago, you know, how people were using AI. You know, what was the biggest use case? Right. So producing content stuff, you'd think. And that already in 2025, the fastest growing way that people are using AI is as a companion.

[Mark Schaefer]

Therapy.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah, therapy, yeah. So. So that behavior that you're talking about is happening and it will drive so much.

[Mark Schaefer]

I mean, that I, I saw that same study and it was sort of jaw dropping. And, and it's funny because the day after I saw that study, I did a podcast episode with one of my co hosts. And the. It was a kind of a strange episode about how do you keep working? How do you keep leading a business when you're suffering? And so my, my co Host relies on AI as a therapist. She's actually built like custom GPTs to encourage her and counsel her when she's suffering. I thought, wow, that, that is something else. I mean, that is really. That's the, I mean, I, you know, okay, well, it's working for her.

[Jon Chance]

Well, you know, the right AI bots probably got a lot of licenses.

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, and again, this also points to, again, the changes in consumer behavior, because think about it, there's also this emerging preference for AI, let's call synthetic relationships. And I think this research about the therapy is sort of a leading indicator of that is that you can be in a relationship with this entity that always tells you the right thing. There's no compromise.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah.

[Mark Schaefer]

You don't really have to work on the relationship. And you know, wow. I mean, what, what, what are the implications of that going to be?

[Jon Chance]

Or worse always tells you what you want to hear. Yes. Which becomes an enabler rather than a therapist.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

So. So there are many, many ideas in this book that, that we're not going to get to because I want to veer off to like a really goofy thing that you did. And that's the COVID Oh. So talk a little bit. I mean, it's obviously very on brand with the book, but explain the kind of the concept behind the COVID Well.

[Mark Schaefer]

This is a first in the world book and I'm very proud of it actually because it sort of demonstrates the ideas in the book and it demonstrates it in a powerful way. Because if you think about books have been published the Same way for 200 years, it's almost impossible to disrupt a book. Believe me, I've tried. So this book, the COVID of the book is a QR code.

[Jon Chance]

And what we did is for the video audience.

[Mark Schaefer]

Oh, yeah. Awesome. I uploaded the book to AI and uploaded some sort of generic art samples and AI is generating abstract art interpretations of the stories in the book. So when you hover over the COVID it creates new covers endlessly based on the stories in the book. And we're actually like updating it every week so there's like more and more stories that are, that are possibilities for the COVID And people love it. You know, it, it is different. And if you think about. It's disrupted the story. It's disrupted where the story is told. It's disrupting who's telling the story. It's not even a human. And I'm getting feedback, John, that even children love playing with the pictures, you know, on, on the book. So. Yeah. So I'm very, I'm very proud of that and yeah, thanks for mentioning it.

[Jon Chance]

You bet. So let's wrap up today with like, if I'm listening to this and I'm thinking I need to do. I need to disrupt the narrative. What are like, what's like the, you know, everybody wants the. Give me the one thing I have to do. What, what, what's the one, two, three steps somebody ought to be doing and right now to say how do I get ready for this?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, the, the one constant I saw in a lot of the create creative thinking behind it is to start with wrong. And if you Just sort of like think about iterating or changing a little bit. It doesn't really lead to creative thinking. And some of the best creative thinking comes from let's flip the script and just. And look at what if everything was just wrong? And I mean, I think the opportunity is this. If you look at most markets today, they're just dull. They're waiting to be disrupted. Every car commercial is the same. You know, pizza. You know, pizza is supposed to be fun and creative. In the celebration, what's the most creative thing going on in pizza in America, we have this ad, nobody out pizzas the hut. What in the world does that mean? Can't you do better than that? So look at start with wrong. That's where we got this us brand, Liquid Death. The number one lesson I ever churned learned in marketing class, never associate your brand with death. Right there. I mean, I encourage you to go to YouTube and Google some of their ads. They're shocking. They make you cringe. I actually was going to show an ad, one of their ads at a conference and it was turned down. They said, oh, we can't show that. And it's a public ad. Now. The guy who started that was not obsessed with water. He was obsessed with this idea of disrupting the market. And almost every market can be disrupted today because it's so boring, especially in B2B. So that, that would be one idea. But the book is filled with so many ideas. But that, that was definitely a common theme I heard in my research.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah, yeah, I laugh. My kids love, like, you know, their refrigerators are full of liquid death.

[Mark Schaefer]

And I'm like, it's just water. Water.

[Jon Chance]

But I will say, you know, I mean, the, the message there is, you know, is it's the brand. It's the connection to the brand.

[Mark Schaefer]

Fastest growing brand, beverage brand in America.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

Awesome.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Jon Chance]

Well, Mark, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there anywhere you'd invite people to connect with you and find out more about Audacious?

[Mark Schaefer]

It's easy to find me. All you have to remember is businesses grow. That is my website. You can find my blog, my podcast, and my social media connections. And in the book we talked about today, audacious how humans win in an AI marketing world.

[Jon Chance]

Yeah, and it's Schaefer with one A, two E's and one F. I mean, I have to look it up every time. I'm sorry, there's so many ways to spell.

[Mark Schaefer]

The other day I was checking into a hotel. I said my name is Mark with a K. She said your name is Kark. So no. So let alone nobody can tell Mark, let alone Schaefer. So don't confuse him, John. Just go to Businesses Grow.

[Jon Chance]

All right, awesome. Again, it's so great to see you my friend, and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

[Mark Schaefer]

Thank you, John.

[Jon Chance]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.