Podcast Summary: The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Episode: Selling Outcomes Instead of Services
Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Joe Pine (Author of The Experience Economy and The Transformation Economy)
Date: February 5, 2026

Overview

In this insightful episode, John Jantsch interviews Joe Pine, renowned author and business thinker, on his latest book, The Transformation Economy: Guiding Customers to Achieve Their Aspirations. Their discussion delves into the shift from selling services or experiences to guiding true transformations for customers—a move from delivering “time well spent” to enabling “time well invested.” The conversation explores why and how businesses of all sizes and types can create real, lasting outcomes for their customers, how to message those changes, the implications for productization, pricing, and guarantees, and the crucial role of AI and measurement in transformational offerings.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Transformation Economy

[01:40]

• Joe Pine’s Economic Progression: We’ve moved from a commodity economy, to industrial goods, to services, to experience—and now, to transformation.
• Transformations "are the next level of value beyond experiences," where companies "guide people to change, helping them achieve their aspirations to become who they want to become." (Joe Pine, 01:56)
• Difference from Marketing Jargon: Transformation isn’t just branding or messaging—“It's about your economic offerings. It's about what you […] do for your customers.” (Joe Pine, 02:29)

2. Distinguishing Experience vs. Transformation

[02:52]

• Experience: Delivers memorable moments—“time well spent”—but often these memories dissipate.
• Transformation: Focuses on lasting change—“time well invested”—where the investment pays off in “compound dividends in the future by becoming a better person in some way.” (Joe Pine, 02:52–03:26)

3. Language and Framing Transformations

[03:31]

• Transformation can sound “big and scary,” but it spans a spectrum—metamorphosis for big changes, aspirations and outcomes for smaller.
• Pine introduces “DNA”: Desires, Needs, Aspirations, as a ladder of customer motivation.
• Key economic verb: You “guide” transformations, acting as “coach, counselor, advocate, navigator.” (Joe Pine, 04:08)

4. Applicability in B2B & B2C Contexts

[05:01]

• B2B: Often easier to identify “the end to which your offering is a means.” Use the “5 Whys” to dig to the deeper aspiration behind each client.
• Commodities Example (Insurance):
  • Insure: Financial payment after loss (service).
  • Assure: Provide emotional/holistic support after loss (experience).
  • Ensure: Help prevent loss—e.g., driver coaching, home risk assessment (transformation). (Joe Pine, 05:58–07:53)

5. The Role of Trauma in Aspirations

[07:53]

• Many transformations stem from trauma—“a lot of aspirations actually come from trauma” that prompts immediate identity shifts, as when a person is diagnosed with cancer.

6. Why is Transformation Emerging Now?

[08:29]

• As society grows more affluent, time becomes more valuable, so people seek “time well spent” (experiences) and increasingly, lasting change (transformations).
• “Experiences change us—they’re the only things that ever change us.” (Joe Pine, 09:29)

7. Customer Mindset & Resistance

[10:08]

• Not everyone wants or is ready for transformation; companies need to “be present when [customers] are ready to go on that adventure and be with them, to be their guide.” (Joe Pine, 10:26)

8. Productizing Transformation—The Role of AI

[12:04]

• Pine: “You can’t commoditize transformations, but you can productize them.”
• Books, toolkits, and especially AI can help scale personalized guidance—AI excels at “counseling, coaching, customizing to your needs at the moment.” (Joe Pine, 12:11–13:59)

9. Pricing Models, Guarantees, and Risk Sharing

[14:15]

• With transformation, “you need to charge for the outcome.”
• Common model: “transformation guarantee”—refund if client doesn’t achieve the agreed-upon aspiration.
• Paradox: You can’t “guarantee” the outcome because ultimately, “customers change themselves.”
• Guarantees are powerful: They show commitment and catalyze organizational changes to support customer success. (Joe Pine, 14:15–15:40)

10. Measuring Transformation

[16:03]

• Some guarantees and outcomes are easy to measure (e.g., job placement after graduation, weight loss), others are more qualitative or subtle.
• Importance of closing the loop and measuring sustained change, not just one-time improvements.

11. Messaging and Marketing

[16:47]

• Marketing must not “get ahead of the actuality.”
• All branding is “a promise of an outcome”—guarantees make the promise credible.
• Pine advocates for “invitational transformations”—immersive marketing experiences (e.g., Guinness Storehouse, World of Coca-Cola) that invite people to identify with the brand and become “super consumers.” (Joe Pine, 17:02–20:05)

12. How Small Businesses Can Start

[20:16]

• Think of your offering as “a means to an end; figure out what that end is.”
• Use “from–to” statements (e.g., from flabby to fit, from sick to well) to clarify the transformation.
• Adopt platforms or toolkits that help customize and track progress for each customer.
• Design the whole journey: Diagnosis → Experiences → Follow-through/Sustain.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Transformation:
  “Transformations are the next level of value beyond experiences… companies can use experiences as the raw material to guide people to change, to help them achieve their aspirations…”
  – Joe Pine [01:56]

• Experience vs. Transformation:
  “With experiences, what you're providing is time well spent... With transformations, what you're providing is time well invested—the people are investing their time… to become a better person in some way.”
  – Joe Pine [02:52]

• On Language:
  “You extract commodities, you make goods, you deliver services, you stage experiences, but you guide transformations.”
  – Joe Pine [04:08]

• B2B Clarity:
  “If you sell to another business, that business doesn't really want your offering… it's a means to an end.”
  – Joe Pine [05:17]

• On Guarantees:
  “While you want to charge an outcome... the paradox is that… customers change themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
  – Joe Pine [14:31]

• On Pricing:
  “With services, you charge for activities, with experiences, for time, with transformations, you charge for outcomes.”
  – Joe Pine [14:19]

• Marketing as Invitational Transformation:
  “I'm inviting you to come in and immerse yourselves in my brand… I'm going to show you what a wonderful category that is… If you get customers to experience your product, the chances they buy it go up… When you say, ‘I am X—I am a whiskey drinker’—that’s a transformation.”
  – Joe Pine [19:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining Transformation Economy: [01:40–02:43]
• Experience vs. Transformation: [02:52–03:31]
• Language and Framing: [03:31–05:01]
• B2B, Commodities & Insurance Example: [05:01–08:09]
• Role of Trauma: [07:53–08:29]
• Why Now? [08:29–10:08]
• Customer Mindsets & Resistance: [10:08–10:53]
• Productization & AI: [12:04–13:59]
• Pricing, Guarantees & Risk: [14:15–16:03]
• Measurement & Tracking: [16:03–16:47]
• Marketing & Messaging: [16:47–20:16]
• First Steps for Small Business: [20:16–22:57]
• Improving Business via Transformation Lens: [22:57–24:27]

Practical Takeaways

• Identify the transformation you truly deliver: Frame your offering as a means to an end, shifting from “what you do” to “what your customer becomes.”
• Build the transformation journey: Start with client aspirations, design experiences that drive change, and ensure follow-through to achieve and sustain the outcome.
• Consider productizing your transformation: Leverage tools, platforms, and AI for diagnosis, personalized guidance, and measurement.
• Shift your marketing: Promise credible outcomes, back them with guarantees, and use immersive marketing experiences to foster identity-level change in your customers.
• For measurement: Develop feedback loops—quantitative where possible, qualitative where needed—focused on end results, not just transactions.

Where to Learn More

• Connect with Joe Pine: LinkedIn
• Resources and Toolkit: Strategic Horizons, especially the /integration page for toolkits, platforms, and additional offerings.