Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time

Summary

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast: "Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time"

Host: John Chance
Guest: David Garfinkel
Release Date: February 12, 2025

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Introduction to Persuasive Storytelling

In this episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Chance delves into the transformative power of storytelling in marketing with renowned copywriting expert, David Garfinkel. Garfinkel, the author of The Persuasion Story Code: The Magic of Conversational Storytelling, shares his insights on how storytelling can outperform conventional sales tactics in converting prospects into customers.

Understanding Persuasion Stories vs. Traditional Stories

Garfinkel distinguishes between traditional storytelling, which he terms "stories with the dollar sign," and "persuasion stories" tailored for marketing. Traditional stories, such as novels or movies, are designed for entertainment and often require financial investment to access (e.g., purchasing a book or a movie ticket). In contrast, persuasion stories are concise, actionable narratives aimed at building trust, rapport, and ultimately driving sales without overwhelming the audience.

David Garfinkel [04:35]: "Persuasion stories are stories that make us money, stories that help us build trust, build rapport. And in some cases, certain kinds of stories close sales."

The Power of Empathy Stories

One of the foundational frameworks Garfinkel introduces is the "empathy story." These narratives resonate deeply with the audience by addressing their pains, dreams, or everyday challenges, thereby creating an emotional connection. For instance, Garfinkel illustrates an empathy story by relating the common frustrations of podcasting, such as guests failing to show up or struggling to articulate their thoughts, which immediately makes the listener feel understood.

John Chance [03:50]: "No question that, you know, most podcasters have been through the same."

Application of Story Frameworks in Marketing

Garfinkel elaborates on the practical application of his story frameworks within marketing strategies. He emphasizes that effective persuasion stories do not aim to oversell but rather move prospects closer to a purchase decision by eliminating objections and showcasing unique solutions.

David Garfinkel [08:24]: "What I like to say is it moves the prospect closer so you can tell a story that eliminates an objection."

He provides specific examples, such as addressing common objections by sharing success stories or case studies that demonstrate how a product or service overcomes potential barriers.

Crafting Conversational and Authentic Stories

A significant challenge in storytelling is ensuring narratives feel genuine and conversational rather than scripted or forced. Garfinkel advises that authenticity stems from discussing familiar topics—be it personal experiences, product benefits, or customer challenges—in a natural tone. This approach avoids the pitfalls of appearing inauthentic or overly promotional.

David Garfinkel [06:53]: "If you're talking about something you already know... it'll come across more naturally."

Integrating Calls to Action Seamlessly

Balancing storytelling with effective calls to action (CTAs) is crucial. Garfinkel points out that persuasion stories don't need to directly close a sale but should guide the prospect closer to making a decision. By embedding CTAs subtly within the narrative, marketers can maintain the flow of the story while prompting action.

David Garfinkel [08:35]: "You're just telling about something that happened, and in the process, you're giving an example that obliterates an objection."

Common Mistakes in Persuasive Storytelling

Garfinkel highlights several common errors marketers make when attempting to use storytelling:

1. Too Much Information (TMI): Overloading the story with technical details can overwhelm the audience, making it harder for them to process and engage with the message.
2. Over-Pushing: Aggressive storytelling can alienate prospects instead of gently guiding them toward a decision.
3. Lack of Focus: Stories that meander without a clear objective fail to persuade effectively.

David Garfinkel [13:57]: "They try to tell everything. They can go into way too much technical detail."

The Role of AI in Storytelling

Addressing the intersection of technology and storytelling, Garfinkel discusses how artificial intelligence (AI) can both aid and hinder the storytelling process. While AI can assist in outlining stories by extracting key points through conversational interactions, Garfinkel cautions against relying on AI to generate entire narratives. He emphasizes the importance of human experience and authenticity, which AI currently struggles to replicate fully.

David Garfinkel [16:50]: "What I'm having it do is draw out of the person key points in the story so that you come up with an outline in your own words through a conversation with the AI."

Influences and Learning in Copywriting

Reflecting on his journey, Garfinkel credits legendary copywriters and seminal works that have shaped his approach to persuasive storytelling. Influential figures like Gary Halbert and books such as Scientific Advertising by Claude Hopkins and Breakthrough Advertising by Gene Schwartz have been pivotal in his development as a copywriting expert.

David Garfinkel [21:23]: "Gary Halbert was the guy... I read all his newsletters. I went to one of his seminars. It changed my life."

Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, Garfinkel directs listeners to his book, The Persuasion Story Code, available on Amazon, and his podcast, Copywriters Podcast. He also offers coaching services through GarfinkleCoaching.com for those seeking personalized guidance in mastering storytelling for marketing.

David Garfinkel [22:42]: "Persuasion Story Code is available on Amazon... you can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter X."

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Key Takeaways:

• Persuasion Stories: Short, focused narratives designed to build trust and move prospects closer to a purchase without overwhelming them.
• Empathy Stories: Connecting with the audience by addressing their specific pains and aspirations.
• Authenticity: Ensuring stories feel conversational and genuine to foster deeper connections.
• Effective CTAs: Seamlessly integrating calls to action within the narrative to prompt audience engagement.
• Avoiding Common Mistakes: Keeping stories concise, focused, and non-aggressive to maintain audience interest.
• Leveraging AI Wisely: Using AI as a tool for outlining rather than generating entire stories to preserve authenticity.

This episode underscores the significance of storytelling in modern marketing, offering actionable frameworks and insights to help businesses craft compelling narratives that resonate and convert.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

Let me ask you a few things. Do you feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.

[John Chance]

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance. My guest today is David Garfunkel. I messed his name up. Scarf Finkel. Sorry about that. We do one take here, so you're gonna have to live with that, David.

[David Garfinkel]

I'll live with it.

[John Chance]

He's a renowned copywriting expert, author, and coach, widely regarded as one of the world's leading authorities on persuasive communication. Spent decades helping businesses, entrepreneurs, and marketers craft compelling messages that drive results.

[Unknown Advertiser]

We're gonna talk about his latest book.

[John Chance]

The Persuasion Story Code, the Magic of Conversational Storytelling. So, David Garfinkel, welcome to the show.

[David Garfinkel]

Thanks, John.

[John Chance]

So, before we get into the content of the book, storytelling has become a pretty hot topic in, especially in marketing circles. Number of books. I've interviewed a number of authors that.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Have read about it.

[John Chance]

So I always like to start with, you know, what do you feel like you offer that's different in this book?

[David Garfinkel]

Well, to put it bluntly, I offer stories that people can learn quickly and use immediately that aren't going to put their listeners to sleep or go, what is he talking about?

[John Chance]

Let's dive right into that. You have, I don't know, 25 or so what you call mini story frameworks.

[David Garfinkel]

Yeah, they're. I call them persuasion stories. And they are actually stories we tell every day, but we don't realize it. And sometimes when we tell them, they're not as persuasive as they could be. I show you how to make Them persuasive without coming across like a carnival barker, but just like a normal human being telling a story.

[John Chance]

Can you give me a couple examples of how you would apply some of those story frameworks in particularly in marketing circles?

[David Garfinkel]

Sure. Well, let me turn the tables on you for just a second for the first one in an empathy story. You know, so, John, I know you do a podcast. I do one too. And sometimes it can be stressful because the guest doesn't show up or they're, they get tongue tied and they're tripping over their words. And it's always a good idea to have a backup, a way to get yourself out of it. That, that's, that's what I call an empathy story. Now, you're obviously an experienced guy and you probably have a dozen backups or, or workarounds, but I mean, even as I was saying that to you, didn't you feel like I knew you just a little better?

[John Chance]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. No question that, you know, most podcasters been through the same. Same thing.

[David Garfinkel]

So.

[John Chance]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David Garfinkel]

And I want to point out that story has a beginning and a middle, but it doesn't have an end. It opens the door for me to sell you my brand new $10,000 course backups and workarounds for tongue tied guests. Right. Which of course is a joke. And I don't.

[John Chance]

That would be a short course.

[David Garfinkel]

Right, exactly.

[John Chance]

So you used, you introduced the idea, you've probably trademarked this even of stories with a dollar sign to start the S. You want to talk a little bit about that concept?

[David Garfinkel]

Yeah. So what most people think of stories, they, they think of a novel, you know, they might think of an orphanage. I love those novels myself. Or, you know, a Lee child Jack Reacher novel or maybe an 18th century Emily Bronte novel or something 19th century, I guess. Those are very long stories, and I call them stories with the dollar sign because we have to pay money to read them, to see them. You know, even cable TV movies were paying a cable bill or we're paying some kind of bill for that. And so those cost us money and usually well worth it. But that's why it has a dollar sign instead of an S at the beginning. Stories, the other type, persuasion stories are stories that make us money, stories that help us build trust, build rapport. And in some cases, certain kinds of stories close sales and they're much shorter, they're much simpler. They don't have lots of characters and character development and an inner journey and an outer journey and, you know, mentors and villains and all that stuff that you need for an entertainment story, the story with a dollar sign. Otherwise why would anyone bother paying for it if it's not interesting?

[John Chance]

That story you started with, the empathy story, is that something that you know, particularly when it comes to resonating with the target audience that you're trying to attract? I mean, is that an essential piece of even getting started?

[David Garfinkel]

It's one way to do it. I think it's the best way. There are other ways. You can cite statistics you can talk about. There's another kind of story called a story about what's going on in the world today. A lot of people in the financial marketing space call this a top of mind story because it's about the news and it connects with what the person's thinking, but it doesn't always connect with what they're feeling. Now, if it's, it's very pitched, if it's political about a point that your target market strongly agrees with, then. Then it does have an emotional connection.

[John Chance]

How do you make stories? I mean, you see people trying to do this and they come off sort of canned. You know, how do you make a story feel very conversational? I mean, do you have some elements that you bring to that or is that just you're a good writer or you're, you're, you just intuitively know this? I mean, how do you get that conversation element?

[David Garfinkel]

Well, sometimes it takes practice and some people are better at this naturally than others. But basically, if you're talking about something you already know, whether it's about yourself or your product, or most likely about your prospect and their pains or their dreams or their hopes or some imagined future that you can provide for them, deliver to them, it'll come across more naturally. It's really when you try to be someone you're not. You remember Hal Holbrook and he did all the Mark Twain stuff. I mean, there's a professional storyteller, My gosh, he spent years and years honing his craft and probably spent hours in makeup making himself look like Mark Twain and all the rest. That's not what you do as a business person unless you're in the entertainment business. It's what you do as a salesperson, is you talk to people. You talk to them about what they need, about their problems, about a solution that you have. And to deliver the same information you're already delivering conversationally but in a story form, it's just going to work a little better.

[Unknown Advertiser]

So a lot of what you're talking.

[John Chance]

About selling is getting the order. So you tell a story, you get some rapport, bring in some empathy, but ultimately you have to say buy now. So how do you work a call to action in that that kind of meets the same meter as the story?

[David Garfinkel]

Well, the interesting thing is a lot of people think that when you tell a persuasion story, the persuasion story has to close the deal.

[John Chance]

Right.

[David Garfinkel]

And it doesn't. What. What I like to say is it moves the prospect closer so you can tell a story that eliminates. Objection. You know, some people think that this $10,000 podcast workaround course isn't for them. But let me tell you about George. He was always getting these guests that started drooling when they come to this podcast, and. And we taught them how to get them to actually wipe the saliva off their mouth before. Okay, terrible example, but you get the point. You're. You're just telling about something that happened, and in the process, you're giving an example that obliterates an objection. So getting over objections is one of the most important steps in closing a sale. There is one story having there, and I don't remember the official name I gave it, but the shorthand is the choice of one where it basically eliminates all the other alternatives. You can tell that story, talk about how all of the competition doesn't do this, but we do doesn't do this, but we do doesn't do this, but we do. And that can be pretty close to okay, would you like one?

[John Chance]

You know, are the stories that you are explaining in the book need to be in print, need to be spoken? Are there differences to, you know, to the medium or to the. Where they're encountered?

[David Garfinkel]

No, no difference. I mean, I'm of the school direct response marketing that copy is basically the spoken language in written form. So anything written in copy could be spoken out loud, and so the words would be the same. Now, there are other people I know who think that copy needs to be big and bold and flamboyant. And I think that's more like a story with the dollar sign. It's very entertaining, but in my experience, it rarely works in actually getting new customers.

[John Chance]

Can you use this technique to get attention? I know one of the chores for a lot of marketers is just people have shorter attention spans. The world is cluttered. You know, search engines take people where they want to take them. I mean, can you use this to. To really get that initial attention in your. In your view?

[David Garfinkel]

Sure. There are four types of origin stories that I have in chapter three, and any one of those could very easily get attention the coffee that I'm drinking here is made with like favorite device in the world. The Orobi Aeropress costs about 30 bucks and it makes delicious coffee. And I actually include their origin story, which is not all that dramatic from their website. But if you wanted to get more attention, you could say, you know, that was the last cup of coffee at the office I could take. You know, burned, flavorless. I was going out of my mind. And then I thought, and that will get someone's attention. And then he can describe how he invented and tested and perfected and, and rolled out and offers this Aerobi Aeropress for 39 bucks as opposed to $2,000 for an espresso machine. It makes better coffee. So you can use origin stories to, to get attention. You, you can also use an empathy story. If you start talking about somebody's pain, you could be talking, you're selling a remedy for joint pain. You could say, you know, you wake up in the morning and once again you dread to get up. Not because you're sleepy, because you know that your joints are going to hurt and soon it starts to feel like sandpaper. You know, somebody who is in the market for something to get rid of that feeling is going to pay attention.

[John Chance]

Does a story in this format have a headline? Does it need to have a headline?

[David Garfinkel]

Well, the story is a component of a sales pitch or of a sales letter. So the sales letter probably should have a headline. Yeah. In fact, you can even start your story in the headline. I mean, one of the most famous ads ever was the Jon Caples ad. They laughed when I sat down at the piano. I knew that's when I began to play, you know, um, and, and then he, and then he actually develops the story. It's about one sixth of the whole ad. So it's not a long story, but it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's a failure, success, problem, solution kind of story. He wrote it about 101 years ago and we still talk about it.

[John Chance]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Advertiser]

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[John Chance]

Are just for the big guys?

[Unknown Advertiser]

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[John Chance]

So what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making when, when really trying to persuade through storytelling?

[David Garfinkel]

Oh, tmi. Too much information. They, they just, they, they try to tell everything. They can go into way too much technical detail. I mean, stories get translated into pictures in people's minds and if the picture is too ornate and detailed, they're not going to be able to process it before you move to the next point in the story. Also, sometimes people are pushing too hard in the story and you don't need to push. You're just moving people gently from where they are to I want it. And sometimes there's no, there's no momentum at all. The story, it's just sort of sitting there and it's going, it's not focused, it's going around circles and it, it's not very persuasive.

[John Chance]

Can people learn, like where, how would you tell? Obviously your book gives them a lot of training, but I think the best writers, maybe you agree with this. The best writers are commonly readers of a lot of things. Can we learn anything from that? Our favorite fiction works.

[David Garfinkel]

Yeah. So about a hundred years ago. I don't know why I keep bringing up these old examples. I guess I'm feeling old today because.

[John Chance]

That'S when we started in business.

[David Garfinkel]

Exactly. Good boy to say. There was an actor, I don't remember her name, but she was CB DeMille's filmmaker, favorite actor. And she said that every, and I'm paraphrasing, every scene in a movie is a story. So if you realize the kind of stories we're talking about with persuasion, stories are little, little bricks that, that build the wall of a whole story with a dollar sign. And so I think if you, I mean, you know, my, my go to favorites are Stephen King, Lee Child wrote the Jack Reacher books, Greg Hurwitz, who wrote the Orphan X books. All of those guys, they, they write very tight, moving. And I don't just mean emotionally moving. I mean there's some momentum in the story and they, they write little snippets of things that happen, little scenes that are complete stories in themselves. And those are, those are really good examples. I had one client who was a crazy Jack Reacher fan and he was having Trouble with some stuff. And I told him, get five or six of your favorite Jack Reacher books and just copy the first page or hand copy it word for word. Not, not to use in anything, not to violate copyright, not to be a plagiarist, but just to get a sense of the rhythm and the tone and the feel. And he did. And it, it transformed him.

[John Chance]

I was going to ask you for a success story, but that's a pretty good one right there. Let's talk a little bit about AI and storytelling. Sure. Automation. I mean, is this, is this going to complement or hinder what you're teaching?

[David Garfinkel]

Both. So I'm taking, you know, the book, the Persuasion Story Code, and I'm creating a video course which is going to be much more thorough. And I've been working with Rhonda Lynn. She's been helping me develop an AI feature to go inside behind the paywall, inside the course. And what I am insisting that it do, even though it doesn't want to, it wants to write the stories. I don't like stories that AI writes. That generally screws them up. And sometimes it makes up facts that you won't catch and that can get you in trouble with your customers or with regulators. But what I'm having IT do is draw out of the person key points in the story so that you come up with an outline in your own words through a conversation with the AI. And I prefer to use AI that way a lot, where, yeah, I, I, I'm very good at interviewing people, but I also enjoy being interviewed. As you can tell, you're interviewing me right now. And I enjoy having a conversation with an AI when it asks me good questions. So you'll basically answer six questions with a single sentence and it'll arrange those sentences for you and you have the outline of your story. I think the problem with AI writing in general and writing stories in specific is there's something that whether you're good at writing stories or writing copy or writing conversationally or not, you and everyone else has a life experience, has had a lot of conversations with people, has a spidey sense you know what's real and what's phony. AI knows what it's been fed and it's training by its developers, and sometimes the stuff it comes up with, plus AI seems to have this, I don't know, algorithm or tendency to want to make everything better and inspirational at the end, even if that's not what you want to do. And so you end up editing it and you could end up spending more Time editing it than you would have if you'd written in the first place.

[John Chance]

Well, I really happy to hear you describe it that way because I've been saying for a long time that our job now is going to be provide context. And I think that that's really what you're describing because it can't do that.

[David Garfinkel]

It really can't. Now you can do more of that than you might have imagined by giving it rules. But even figuring out what those rules are is quite a mental strategic exercise in itself. And then communicating it, figuring out how to communicate it so it's effective to. The AI is also an exercise in itself. But you can do more with AI and get higher quality output than you thought. When it comes to something like stories, I'm not sure.

[John Chance]

Yeah, I think, I think you just have to treat it as that assistant is what I've told people, you know, that, I mean, you can even. I've had a lot of luck with, I mean, never had luck with saying write something, but I've have had good luck with saying, could you make this sentence better? You know, things along that line. And then it will bring in lots of stuff because you've, you've trained it. Is there a formula like a must have, you must have an object of desire. There must be a climax. There must be, you know, all those kind of writing types of commandments for stories?

[David Garfinkel]

Yeah, well, these, these stories are, are different. I mean, in, in the typical hero's journey story, there are those rules. But a hero's journey story is two hours long and has many pieces to it. And there are specific rules, but they're different for an origin story than they are for an empathy story. An empathy story, all of the story I call, there are four types and I call them stories about what your customer is experiencing. Those generally only have a beginning and a middle. There are case study stories and, and you know, with, with case studies and other proof stories, testimonials that are effective. You generally want to have a crisis, an obstacle, a way the person overcame the obstacle and a positive resolution. And that's, that's a lot like a typical hero's journey story, sort of shrunken down to two or three minutes. So it depends.

[John Chance]

I'm curious, who did you read, who did you learn from when you were getting started in storytelling or copywriting, period?

[David Garfinkel]

Oh my gosh. I, I, well, Gary Halbert was the guy, right? I, I, I read all his newsletters. I went to one of his seminars. It changed my life.

[John Chance]

Hurricane Andrew from Fish Creek or Something like that. Where. Where did he write from? I can't remember what the.

[David Garfinkel]

Well, he was in Key west, but he was south of something. Doofish Key or something like that. Yeah, but I read all the classics. I read scientific advertising 15 times. It's not even a very enjoyable book, but incredibly valuable. I like Gene Schwartz's book a lot. Breakthrough Advertising. I've been reading it for 30 years. I still keep getting new things out of it. I love Joe Sugarman's book. It was originally called Advertising Secrets of the Written Word, is reissued at a much better price by Ad Week magazine, and it's, I think, now called the Adweek Copywriting Guide. And that's. That's one of my top books. So I. I've read a lot of copywriting books. A few of them have been really good, like those.

[John Chance]

So, David, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. The podcast is where can people find out more about your work? Certainly learn more about the frameworks and obviously pick up a copy of the persuasive Persuasion Story Code. I'm in. I've. I've been sick with a headache today, and so I'm like, that's okay, that's okay.

[David Garfinkel]

No, you're doing great. Thank you. Persuasion Story Code. Persuasion Story Code is available on Amazon, the Persuasion Story Code. Because some people look for the Persuasion Code, which is a different book. You can Find me on LinkedIn and Twitter x or X or Twitter. And I have a podcast myself, Copywriters Podcast. It's you find a copywriterspodcast.com. we're also on all of the platforms, you know, Spotify and Apple podcasts and all the rest. If someone is. Has a fairly robust business or they're doing pretty well as a copywriter and they want coaching, they can go to garfinklecoaching.com I think that's about it. I don't know.

[John Chance]

Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments out of the day to stop by the podcast.

[David Garfinkel]

Oh, thanks for having me. My pleasure. Great questions, too.

[John Chance]

Thank you. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

[David Garfinkel]

That sounds good. I like that.

[Unknown Host]

Let me ask you a few things. You feel like you know, what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, Visit DTM World Slash Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Slash Growing.