John Jantz (2:47)

So you mentioned something I was curious about. You said whether they know it or not. I mean, how often did you find that brands were like, what are you talking about?

Michael Aaron Flicker (2:54)

I mean, we just.

John Jantz (2:55)

It's like, that's why my mom said you should treat people. Is that not good?

Michael Aaron Flicker (2:59)

I think what we find is that great marketing strategists, great marketing creatives, have an insight into human psychology in a way that many of us do not have. But we also found folks that are selling hot dogs on the street, those that are running florist shops on the corner market, have those same insights because they're this close to the consumer. They're next to the consumer. They're selling every day. And so at both extremes in the vaulted agencies and brands of the world, and at the ground level, when you're actually selling to people every day, you learn things about human psychology that get put into practice. And so it was. So our belief is that most of the campaigns, most of the brands we looked at, they understood that they had access to something special. We don't think they knew many of the academic studies behind it that proved why it was likely to work.

John Jantz (3:59)

Yeah, so in some ways, you were validating something they'd already discovered but didn't realize it was a seeker. Yeah. So. So were there any myths or, you know, best practices and quotes that you found that you could challenge head on or that you were even trying to challenge head on?

Michael Aaron Flicker (4:16)

I don't think we sought. We set out to challenge this, but one of the most common things we see marketers do is they have something they want to sell and then they start stacking the RTBs. The reasons to believe this thing goes faster and is quieter and oh, by the way, it'll clean your teeth while you do all those other things. And, you know, we did not set out to debunk that, but we opened the book with a story about five guys, which is, if you're an American listener, one of America's fastest growing better burger chains. And that founder Jerry Morrell started with an insight that. And he was just walking along a Maryland boardwalk where he sees one company stall with a massive line when everybody else's stalls were empty. And Thrashers fries on the Maryland boardwalk had this massive line. And he got to thinking, is this stall that only sells one thing fries doing something better than everybody else that sold burgers and milkshakes and sodas. And so anyway, that's one of the founding beliefs of five guys. And even to today, $1.6 billion franchise. They don't sell chicken, they don't sell salads, they don't sell ice cream. They only sell burgers and fries. And there's some interesting academic studies that back that up.

John Jantz (5:41)

Yeah, yeah. I can think just in my own experience of some kind of local places that only do like fried chicken or something. And they're just, they're kind of legendary because they, I think there's something about the experience of that too. It's like, we know why we're going there. So let's get into the lab work. I mean you and Richard are both, I mean you have consumer behavior labs.

John Jantz (6:02)

So there is a little bit of.

John Jantz (6:03)

Laboratory work involved in that, right? In the research.

Michael Aaron Flicker (6:06)

That's right.

John Jantz (6:07)

How do you take insights from, I don't know, academic behavioral science and turn them into like real campaigns or product design?

Michael Aaron Flicker (6:16)

I think what we're always looking for is that there's an incredible wealth of knowledge happening in the universities that stops short of so what do we do about it? And so it's this gold mine of insights and goldmine of observations that gets validated. But then the question is, so what do you do? And so what we've been looking for is saying, well, we have high performing campaigns in the uk. They have something called the IPA effectiveness database, which is campaigns that are proven to drive sales. And there's a lot of data supporting that. So you look at famously effective campaigns and then you look at, well, what's the academics that could help understand that. And there's not always a match, but when you can find a match, you can mine the academics and you can match it to the effective work. Now we have a starting spot, but if that match is just kind of a fun uncover, we don't think that matters. Then we have to make sure you can apply it to a business or a brand that you might be working on. And then we feel we have some material that's worthy of conversation.

John Jantz (7:29)

Do you want to give me a couple of like concrete, sort of specific, detailed examples about, I don't mean a whole campaign necessarily, but like, yeah, here's one human behavior that we discovered you could impact this by doing it. Give us an example.

Michael Aaron Flicker (7:43)

So often as marketers we, we get this idea that if we can just paint in the picture of the mind of somebody how amazing our brand or our product is, then they're just going to buy it. And what we, what the data tells us is that may be true, but how you paint it really matters. And a brand that we dissected in the book was Apple, but not all of Apple. Specifically when Steve Jobs reveals the ipod and he stands up in stage and he holds the ipod up and what he says is, it'll be a thousand songs in your pocket. And up until that point, everybody else was saying, 5 gigabytes of storage, 128 kilobytes of this. And so what we got thinking was, well, what's the science behind why a thousand songs in your pocket really connects with people? And the study that we went to was in 1972. Ian Begg, Western Ontario University, recruits 25 students, and he reads them 22 word phrases. Some phrases are impossible amount, rusty engine, flaming forest, and others are apparent fact, common fate. And when he asked the group to remember as many terms as they could, they can recall just about 23%. It's about. Just about one out of five. But here's the observation that matters. They can only remember 9% of the abstract words like impossible amount, but 36% of the concrete terms like white horse. That's a fourfold increase if they can picture it in their minds. And so what it teaches us is, is that great taglines, great phrases, conjure an image in your mind. Red Bull, it gives you wings. Eminem, it melts in your mouth, not in your hand. Skittles. Taste the rainbow, Maxwell's House, good to the last drop. You can picture what I'm saying as you say it. And that really can make the same idea much more sticky and much more concrete in the mind of the buyer.

John Jantz (9:57)

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John Jantz (10:31)

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John Jantz (10:40)

Great example. So I was curious when I read the subtitle, did you choose 17 different. Was there some sort of, like, psychological trick being played or hack being played by the number 17?

Michael Aaron Flicker (10:52)

The answer is yes. The answer is yes. And there's a few things at play here, but the illusion of effort is something that Richard and I are really, are really interested in. And the basic psychological principle here is that by getting to a very specific number, it Shows a lot more intentionality and a lot more purpose. We think if we had said 20 of the world's best brands, you know, I would just roll right over it. There's some interesting science behind it, but that's why. Yes, we're trying to show specificity. We're trying to show the effort that went into that. And we know that has caught more people's attention because of it.

John Jantz (11:30)

Yeah. 3,000% increase as opposed to 3,217.

Michael Aaron Flicker (11:35)

Way more believable.

John Jantz (11:35)

Right.

Michael Aaron Flicker (11:36)

In our book, we dissect a brand, Dyson, and I don't know if everybody knows this is a famous vacuum cleaner. James Dyson is the inventor, and when he invents it, his first ad that he puts into the market was 5,127 prototypes to get to the world's first bagless vacuum. He loves it so much in his autobiography. It's the first line of his autobiography. Look at the effort to get that bagless vacuum. It's just more believable than if he had sent 5,200 prototypes.

John Jantz (12:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, since you did profile and you actually chose 17 brands, were there any like that really surprised you? I mean, somebody doing something behaviorally significant or savvy that you didn't expect?

Michael Aaron Flicker (12:22)

You know, I think there was one that had a big impact that I wouldn't have originally thought. And it's this concept that comes from Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner, Economics 1993. Kahneman and his colleague Donald Radelmeier come up with a study on colonoscopy patients. And here's how the study goes. The colonoscopy patients are going through an actual procedure, and every 60 seconds they register their pain level. At the end of the experience, they get two chances to give a retrospective rating. One right after the experience is over, and then another one a month later. And what you find is that those retrospective ratings do not correspond with the total pain level at all. In fact, the retrospective ratings, whether it was the hour after or a month later, coincide with two critical moments, the peak intensity that happened during the experience and the final moment of the procedure. And so Kahneman calls this the peak end rule. So that's kind of interesting. Like, this is where academics stops. What does that mean for brands and marketers? There's a LA hotel called the Magic Castle Hotel. It was featured in Chip and Dan Heath's book the Power of Moments. And the Magic Castle hotel has top 5% of all TripAdvisor hotels in LA. 94% of their reviews are Very good or excellent? Better than the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills. But what's surprising about this hotel is it's a 1950s motel. Dated decor, mediocre rooms, small swimming pool in the courtyard. But what have they done so well? And what does almost every review talk about? They have a popsicle hotline in the pool, and you pick up the phone day or night, and they will bring out on a silver platter as many popsicles as you'd like to eat. It's a peak moment in an average hotel, and that makes everybody love going there, and everybody loves to dial the phone. So thinking about how you can use what would otherwise be a very hard to advertise LA motel and make it into a all star in the city, you don't have to redo everything. In fact, if you could just come up with something that everybody loves, a lot more people will be endeared to you.

John Jantz (14:53)

Well, and I suspect also one of the key ingredients is it's kind of unexpected. Like, who does that?

Michael Aaron Flicker (14:58)

I think you're right.

John Jantz (15:00)

Right.

Michael Aaron Flicker (15:00)

Yeah. I mean, I think the point of the peak is that it stays stands apart from everything else. If they had just the softest pillows, somehow you think it might not make as much of a difference, but something fun and social in a courtyard surrounded by all these relatively uninspired rooms, it kind of. It stands out. Yeah.

John Jantz (15:21)

And I think the beauty of that message, I mean, obviously it's a hotel, they've got a different application. But almost any business could do something like that, couldn't they? I mean, something that just really has somebody go. You got to see what these guys did.

Michael Aaron Flicker (15:34)

I think it can be a customer experience like that. It could also be. We had a guest on our podcast a few weeks ago, and they were talking about every month they go to this shore town, and when they get there, they always go to their favorite restaurant. And the favorite restaurant has flowers on some of the tables, but whenever they come in, he brings over the flowers and places it on the table they sat at, and they say, now the table's ready for you. It's a small act. It's intentional. These. He's just using a little vase with three flowers sticking out of it, but it makes the person feel special. That's a peak moment that requires no extra money, requires no grand strategy, but it does require intentionality and consistency. And that's another example of how anybody can use it.

John Jantz (16:23)

All right, let's go to the dark side, shall we? Yes. Understanding these things, what risk do we run in exploiting manipulating you know, using them to, you know, to not necessarily do what's in the best interest, perhaps, of the customer.

Michael Aaron Flicker (16:41)

So we would say, first of all, that these insights into human behavior and human psychology are facts. And understanding them is first about understanding why we are naturally prone to. You know, we have a quote from Kahneman in the beginning of the book. Humans thinking is to humans like swimming is to cats. They can do it. They just prefer not to. Humans naturally want shortcuts. We naturally want to make. We want to think as little as possible to get to the decisions we need. So, first, understanding these is about understanding human humanity and human psychology. Second, we write books for everybody to read so everybody can be aware of them. So we're educating marketers about how they can use them for positive ends. And we want consumers to understand that these are our natural leanings and inclinations that we got to be aware of. But, yeah, for sure, there's ethics in behavioral science, like there's ethics in marketing, like there's ethics in AI. And we have to be aware that we've got to use these for ethical and moral purposes.

John Jantz (17:51)

Yeah. Years ago, I had Dr. Chil Downey on the show, wrote Influence, you know.

Michael Aaron Flicker (17:55)

Seminal book in our field.

John Jantz (17:56)

Yeah, yeah. And he told me during that interview that he actually wrote the book so people wouldn't be exploited. And of course, you know, then unfortunately, you know, people turned around and used a lot of what was in it, you know, in a way that wasn't intended necessarily. So if a marketer's listening to this, they want to hack their own campaigns or customer journeys or whatever it is they're working on. Are there certain habits or mindsets that they're going to need to adopt? I mean, where do they start?

Michael Aaron Flicker (18:24)

Yeah. So we would say that this is a field. Behavioral science is a field that's really blown out in Europe and in the United Kingdom. Here in America, it's a much more nascent budding place. So if you're interested in these, in the. In. In the approach of behavioral science and how could prove marketing. Lots of material online, lots available, of course, including our book. But in order to get started, I think you have to have an interest in the academics and the science that powers why we do what we do. If you're a marketer that believes everything's done on hunches or on gut instinct, it's going to be hard to embrace this type of marketing because this is based on belief that you can decode human behavior through science and through observation. It's not that you can guarantee what's going to happen, but you can make your campaigns more likely to be successful if you use this science backed thinking. So we're increasing the probability that you're going to have good outcomes in your marketing.

John Jantz (19:36)

The flip side of that mindset though is measurement, right? I mean understanding. Okay, if we, if this is our hunch, if this is our hypothesis based on research, how do we prove that we were right and is that become a stumbling block for a lot of folks?

Michael Aaron Flicker (19:53)

We would say that there's a massive industry around consumer insights that has its place for some marketers, but for every marketer doing tests and seeing the outcomes, everybody can do. So if you are a e commerce based or a web based ab, tests are very easy to do. If you are not, we would advocate for observational research, do something and see what happens. And you can do that on a small scale and you can watch the outcomes and then you can continue to innovate or go down this path. So what we would say is if you're a small business owner, if you're a solopreneur, use these tactics and then find ways to test them small and learn from those tests.

John Jantz (20:42)

Mike, Aaron, I appreciate you stopping by to talk about hacking the human mind. Is there someplace you'd invite people to connect with you?

Michael Aaron Flicker (20:48)

We have our website, the consumer behaviorlab.com where you can learn about the book, about the masterclass, and then we also have a podcast that's been much shorter than John's called Behavioral Science for Brands that we invite everybody to take a listen to.

John Jantz (21:05)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Michael Aaron Flicker (21:10)

Thank you, John.

John Jantz (21:22)

Hey, small business owners, let me ask.

John Jantz (21:24)

You a quick question.

John Jantz (21:25)

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