Podcast Summary: The Human Side of AI Branding

Podcast: The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast
Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Mark Kingsley, Brand Strategist & Author
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, John Jantsch interviews Mark Kingsley, a veteran brand strategist and author of "Brands in the Age of AI." The discussion dives deep into how artificial intelligence (AI) is transforming the fundamentals of branding—not just as a technological force but as an inflection point demanding more human-centric, ethical, and emotionally intelligent brand practices. They examine whether AI dehumanizes branding or offers new opportunities for genuine customer connection, explore the critical role of trust, and address practical opportunities and risks for small businesses navigating the rapid rise of AI.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How AI is Reshaping Branding

• AI as a Force Multiplier:
  • Mark sees AI not as fundamentally changing the rules, but increasing the pressure for ethical, “better behavior” in branding.

    "AI does multiply. It’s a force multiplier for the ability to extract more attention and...profit from brands and transactions...But I see it also as an opportunity to connect with the 'I Thou' connection—me, I, and you, thou, and seeing each other with open eyes."
    <span style="color:grey;">[01:19]</span>

• Humanization vs. Automation:
  • John counters that many fear AI leads to robotic marketing, but Mark insists its real promise is for more authentic, contemplative thinking, not just calculative/logistical improvements.

    “In the book, I speak about connecting with the I Thou connection...not as a target...AI does offer these opportunities. It just comes down to what is the choice that people are going to make.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[01:19]</span>

2. Emotional Connection & Trust in the Era of AI

• Brands and Emotional Metrics:
  • Mark notes brand value is often supposed to be emotionally driven, but admits measuring and prioritizing this can feel like “shouting in the wind” compared to the hard data of KPIs and ROI.

    “How does one track an emotional...brands, in theory, everyone that works in branding talks about brands making an emotional connection to people. So that’s hard to track.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[03:59]</span>

• Technology’s Neutrality:
  • Citing Heidegger, Mark emphasizes that technology itself doesn’t erode or enhance trust, but reframes relationships—sometimes with unintended consequences (e.g., how sawdust-to-fiberboard innovation contributed to deforestation).

    “Technology does...reframes our relationship to things. ...it’s like a neutral thing.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[05:41]</span>

• Challenge of Authenticity:
  • John presses on the issue of trust, noting the current climate of skepticism (“am I seeing something that’s real or not?”).

3. The Algorithm Trap & The Value of Humanity

• Chasing Algorithms Is Self-Defeating:
  • Mark argues that marketers who merely optimize for algorithms are making themselves replaceable.

    “If that’s all you’re going to do...you are replaceable by AI. And so it’s shortsightedness to even think that way.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[07:09]</span>

• Skill Evolution in Marketing:
  • He compares marketing to law—if you automate away all the basic learning (the “donkey work”), you risk undermining the next generation’s ability to develop real expertise.

4. AI-Driven Storytelling & Experience

• Defining Storytelling:
  • Mark distinguishes between chronicling events (common in branding) and transformative storytelling that creates “aha” moments or feelings of being truly seen.
• Memorable Examples:
  • Chiquito Bar in Chelsea:

    “The person behind the bar...would look at me...and as soon as I sat down, there was a bottle of the Baronia Reserva ready to go...She knew my wine...she knew me, I knew her. We had a little secret link...because we saw each other.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[09:23]</span>

  • AI at JFK Parking:

    “There was a tiny little camera that saw me and my license plate and put it together...That was that moment of transformation where I’m like, oh, I felt...welcome.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[11:09]</span>

• Technology Should Remove Friction for Customers, Not Just Companies:

  “Where people get tripped up with any kind of automations is when they’re used to make life easier for the company as opposed to removing the friction for the customer.”
  <span style="color:grey;">[12:47]</span>

5. Brand AI Integration & Operational Challenges

• Brand Operating System:
  • Mark describes a potential future where AI integrates databases to automate routine strategic tasks.
  • He uses Starbucks as a cautionary tale: as they open more licensed stores (not directly run by Starbucks), their systems become disconnected, eroding customer experience and undermining brand unity.

    “They call themselves Starbucks, but they don’t act like Starbucks...the databases aren’t connected...Starbucks has gone for the efficiency and the profit, but not necessarily the customer experience.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[14:57]</span>

• Industry-Wide Hurdles:
  • Siloed databases and proprietary priorities of large players slow the march toward integrated, agentic AI.

6. The Future of Human Skills & Leadership

• Transformation of Roles & Skills:
  • Mark articulates that the emergence of AI requires not just new skills but a new concept of leadership, employment, and profit.

    “Different ways of educating leadership, different ways of defining leadership, employment, goals, profit...there’s great potential for a transformative change which can enhance human life.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[18:41]</span>

7. AI’s Risks and Opportunities for Small Businesses

• Risks:
  • Larger entities could use AI to justify cost-cutting (i.e., “I know you used AI, so why are you charging this much?”), leading to price and value pressure.
• Opportunities:
  • Small, nimble agencies and businesses can leverage AI to match the operational efficiencies of big firms.

    “AI now gives smaller agencies and smaller players the capacity to kind of level up to that...as long as you also have that...an equal amount of insights and innovation.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[19:22]</span>

• Rethinking Value:
  • John observes that agencies can now deliver “a lot more value for that same fee,” but Mark warns this could erode perceived value and, ultimately, wage growth.

    “There does need to be a certain kind of larger societal reckoning about value. Right. Because employee productivity has grown...but wages have remained the same.”
    <span style="color:grey;">[21:33]</span>

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark Kingsley on Human Connection:

  “I'm like the, you know, the classic myth of the little boy and the dike and trying to keep his finger in the dike, trying to keep the sea at bay.”
  <span style="color:grey;">[03:55]</span>

• John Jantsch on AI and Replaceability:

  “So if chasing algorithm, I’ve totally agreed. I mean, people that are just looking to find efficiencies...with AI are essentially almost playing right into the hands of being replaced themselves.”
  <span style="color:grey;">[08:36]</span>

• On Storytelling and Being Seen:

  “How do I create a sense of being seen, of that I thou relationship...that’s how I ordered it, right. She knew me, I knew her. We had a little secret link...it just happens naturally because we saw each other.”
  <span style="color:grey;">[09:23]</span>

• On Frictionless Experience:

  “Part of that is removing all the friction, removing all the bumps along the way...I’m just gonna walk from taxi to gate relatively soon.”
  <span style="color:grey;">[12:40]</span>

• On Best vs. Better Practices:

  “There are no best practices. Right there, only better practices.” – Mark Kingsley
  <span style="color:grey;">[22:54]</span>

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:19 – How AI changes branding fundamentals
• 03:59 – Emotional connections are hard to quantify but crucial
• 05:41 – Technology’s neutral impact and the reframing of relationships
• 07:09 – Pitfalls of chasing the algorithm and becoming replaceable
• 09:23 – AI storytelling: The importance of being seen
• 12:47 – Automation: Company ease vs. customer friction
• 14:57 – Integrating AI: Starbucks’ database challenges
• 18:41 – Skills and leadership in the AI era
• 19:22 – AI risks and opportunities for small business
• 21:33 – Reckoning with productivity, value, and wages

Closing Thoughts

Mark urges marketers, business owners, and leaders to see AI not as a shortcut but as a tool that can free up deeper human connection and transformation—if used thoughtfully. The challenge isn’t just technical, but deeply philosophical and societal.

“Everything is situational. There are no best practices, only better practices.”
— Mark Kingsley <span style="color:grey;">[22:54]</span>

Find Mark Kingsley at malcontent.com:

“I do business under the name Malcontent because it really describes...my approach and my feelings about established processes...knowing that there’s always a better way out.”
<span style="color:grey;">[22:27]</span>