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The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast
The Secret Weapon of Great Brands
00:25:03
Laura Ries is a globally recognized branding strategist, bestselling author, and president of Ries & Ries—the firm she leads alongside her father, legendary positioning pioneer Al Ries. In this episode, she unveils the powerful concept behind...
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- [00:01]
Jon Jantz
You know, over the years, you've heard me talk a lot about marketing systems. Today I get to share something really special. My daughter, Sarah Nay, who also happens to be the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, just released her first book. It's called Unchained Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models and How Small Business can finally Take Control of Their marketing Lead with strategy and scale with AI. I know, a mouthful, right? But it's everything we've learned taken to the next level. In fact, we're even calling it duct tape marketing 3.0. As a dad, I couldn't be prouder. But I want you to check it out at DTM World Unchained and get ready to take your strategy to a whole new level. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is Jon Jantz and my guest today is Laura Reese. She's a globally recognized branding strategist, best selling author and president of Reese and Reese, the firm she runs with her father, legendary positioning pioneer Al Reese. Or has guided Fortune 500 companies and fast growing startups alike on how to win the battle in the mind through bold, focused brand positioning. We're going to talk today about her latest book, the Strategic Enemy, how to Build and Position a Brand Worth Fighting for. So, Laura, welcome back to the show.
- [01:28]
Laura Reese
Well, thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here and to see you again.
- [01:32]
Jon Jantz
Likewise. And you know, there are very few people I can say this to, but you know, when I was just getting started, your father's book was very instrumental read for me as well. I'm sure you've heard that more than once.
- [01:44]
Laura Reese
It was a very instrumental book for me as well. It's what got me here and got me interested in falling in love with positioning. And so such a pleasure to have had the chance to work with him for so many years.
- [01:56]
Jon Jantz
And as you and I have talked before, you know, my daughter actually is our CEO and has worked with me for 15 years. So it's kind of that, that, you know, it's funny, people who maybe haven't done that before, you know, have a lot of questions about like how does that work? So I'm curious for you, I mean, for us it's been great. We have a great personal relationship. We don't take that, I mean, we do take it into business because I trust her at a level that I don't think I would ever trust anyone else in business and things of that nature. But you know, it doesn't some of the drama that people are used to. I just, we've never experienced it as that. I get the sense that you're probably in that same boat.
- [02:32]
Laura Reese
Yeah, no, you do have that, that long term trust and you, you know, you're in it for the long haul for your family, you hope and so that, that longevity and history and all that you bring into it. But yeah, you do have to, you know, love what you do. I think that's the most important thing. I love positioning. It wasn't that I just, my dad was cool, right. But I also really enjoyed, I loved learning from him. And then of course I enjoyed to teach him a few tricks as well too.
- [02:58]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, of course you wouldn't stick around if, if you loved it. It's, it's a grind. You got to have some passion for it. So let's jump right into the book. One of my first questions and I think I know, well, I know the answer to this, but I want you to clarify. How would you differentiate between a strategic enemy and say a competitor?
- [03:17]
Laura Reese
Well, companies have lots of competitors, right? So that's the reality. But a strategic enemy is strategic in terms of, it's very important in your strategy. It's always important to understand the enemy. But like I said, there's many. But you want to pick that one. And the most important thing is you want to show what the contrast is. And so that is, for example, you have Liquid Death, right, one of the hottest new water brands. They pick not other water brands, but plastic water bottles as the enemy. Death to plastics is their slogan. So they said no to something. They didn't offer it in plastic. And they very pointedly said that, you know, we are killing the earth with plastic. Aluminum is much more infinitely recyclable and sadly, we don't even recycle much plastic anymore. Even though they can be so very important message. And of course they have, you know, brilliant snazzy marketing along with it. But it is backed by something very specific, very tangible and very much a difference from the enemy that they've had set up. Another is, you know, for example, Uber. The Original name was uber cab.com if you remember, back in the day.
- [04:22]
Jon Jantz
I, I actually don't know that I knew that.
- [04:24]
Laura Reese
Yeah, no, I, I didn't either. But you know, I, you know, I do my research on these books and. But let's listen, if you have a name like Uber Cab, how can taxis be the enemy? The strongest thing to, to rally consumers for your cause is not so much to say, you know, come with us, we're great, but let's fight somebody else. Let's Fight those taxicabs out there. And we have a better way. Our way is that new category which is always the best way to build a brand. And that was, you know, Uber with the ride sharing.
- [04:52]
Jon Jantz
You know, it's really interesting because I'm sure most people's minds go to the enemy, being like, you know, the people that beat you out, you know, for, you know, whatever, you know, work that you get. And as I listen to you this, it's probably in some ways the enemy can just be a problem that your ideal client is facing. Right?
- [05:09]
Laura Reese
Absolutely. It's like it's. Say it's not Evil Corp is the enemy, right. That it's a really big bad guy or thing or something out there. It is, yeah, two things. Either a problem that you're going to solve or just the alternative. There's, you know, not just one way to do something. I mean, think about mouthwash, you know, Listerine, that, you know, it's medicine breath, is what Scope said because they were selling good tasting mouthwash. But you know, Listerine, the fact that taste you hate twice a day, I mean, that talked to the efficacy. I mean, it was very strong. That was killing all the germs. So there's two sides of every coin. And that's the important part of strategy and of thinking about positioning in a way that it's not just what we are, but what is the contrasting alternative that puts us in a better light? I mean, there's always, you know, multiple ways to look at things. I mean, some people like regular cow's milk, it's delicious. But then you have oatly coming in with, wow, no cow, and selling, you know, this is milk for humans, you know, made from oatmeal notes.
- [06:07]
Jon Jantz
So it's, it's almost. Well, I shouldn't say almost. It is. I mean, you're. A really key point of this book is you're saying that brands need to actually maybe go looking for this enemy, find it. Right. I mean, not necessarily make it up, but like without it, you even go as far as what was your statement wrote down, your brands without enemies or brands without energy, that we actually need to go find this thing. Right.
- [06:29]
Laura Reese
Without meaning. And here's the biggest problem is most companies aren't focused enough to have an enemy. They do too many things in too many markets and try to appeal to too many people. And when you do that, you don't have a focus. And without a focus, you don't have an enemy. So sometimes the first thing is looking at yourself and saying, what can we say no to. If you say no to something, that tends to put you in a direction where you can find an enemy. What did Southwest do? They said no to first class being the coach class only. That was, you know, they had more affordable seating. They also made that whole, you know, theme of the airline being about fun and games. And they, you know, the stewardesses and airline attendants would make jokes and crack jokes. But, you know, you can't crack jokes if you got a first class and a curtain and then us back in the coach. Right. So that focus can very much help you define what your identity is and position against what that, you know, enemy you have put out there. And, and, but companies too often get in trouble because what is Southwest doing today? They're adding first class and premium seating. All undermin. The bags don't fly. And here's the thing, seat assignments, I'm all for. That's gonna, you know, get rid of the chaos. But bags not flying free, that was something that they could anchor their brand on and say everybody else is, you know, charging for bags, but here bags fly free. And listen, that has an operational efficiency too, because if the bags fly free, people will check them and then you could board the plane. Otherwise, everyone's carrying all their bags on with them, and that slows down everything. So it is very sad when companies lose their focus and we're trying to fight that fight to help them stay focused.
- [08:09]
Jon Jantz
So it sounds like here you're saying the really, the first step too, is that you got to know who you are first before you can go out there and find the enemy. Maybe. But in a lot of ways, it probably starts with narrowing your focus. Right? Here's who we're for, so here's who we're not for. It's probably step one, isn't it?
- [08:24]
Laura Reese
Yeah, it's, you know, it's a balance between. Of, you know, knowing who you are, you know, what you can say no to. But at the end of the day, focus has always been, you know, the key critical element of positioning itself and, you know, the enemy is, you know, line extension going in too many directions, diluting what your brand is. And when companies do focus, then they can make use of that strategic enemy. And it's creating the contrast so that people can better understand because, listen, people don't have time. We gotta make these. We've gotta make these communications very simple, very clear so that people understand and also understand the choice. For example, you've got edible arrangements, which now goes by edible, which I don't, you know, don't always shorten your name because edible today has a very different connotation.
- [09:11]
Jon Jantz
I live in Colorado and there you go.
- [09:14]
Laura Reese
That's not what they're selling. They are selling edible fruit arrangements, which has a fantastic strategic enemy. Why buy flowers that will die right when you can send a delicious edible bouquet? But edible arrangements as a, you know, a name is very strong. But again, it's the category that really matters because people care more about the category than they do about brands. I hate to tell you, but while they speak in brands, we think, oh, you know, people love a Tesla. No, they don't love the Tesla brand. It's the category that they dominate, which is EV electric vehicles. A category that is booming right now. And, you know, people still buy them despite what they think of Elon Musk and all of his shenanigans. But, you know, very strong brand that did absolutely do the, you know, many of the things we preach about being first in pioneering a category and only focusing on EVs, which. Here's the problem. Originally this was a tiny market. The major automobile makers, you know, they thought it was niche and they ignored it for many years. And that allowed Tesla to get in, you know, not so much build the market initially, but build the mind of the consumer, that Tesla was the car that stood for it. So, you know, you can take advantage of the big companies are slow on these things. Other one was Red Bull. You know, Coca Cola ignored Red Bull for years until, you know, after 10 years, it was $100 million and they woke up and said, whoops. But when they competed late, you know, it was too late to the game. A Full Throttle, Tab Energy, all of the others they try to launch are big losers. The brand that pioneers it, particularly when they do it with a good name, a good strategy and a strong message, you know, it gives you wings. If you didn't know a lot of.
- [10:52]
Jon Jantz
Those, a lot of those big companies just go out and buy the competition.
- [10:56]
Laura Reese
That's not a bad idea. Listen, I mean, today, what is Coca Cola done? They can't launch their. They even tried Coca Cola Energy, if you could believe that. But they have made, you know, they put a stake into Monster, which is the only brand that has successfully competed against Red Bull. And today is a very strong leader globally in the energy drink market. How did they do it? They didn't copy Red Bull. They didn't try to be better. They came in a 16 ounce can. Now is that better? Who knows? It's different and it's visually different. And not only that they combined it with a great name, a simple visual hammer, the Green Claw. They've got, you know, monster motocross and truck events and all sorts of things. They've utilized that strategy to unify their anchor as to what they stand for against their competitor, Red Bull. But how do you compete with that? Well, the big number three today is Celsius. They're hot in the energy drink market by not going the masculine male approach, as you know, what mostly Red Bull and Monster have done, but it's a more unisex, fitness friendly, you know, no sugar. And they've taken on a very good chunk of the market by going and being different.
- [12:05]
Jon Jantz
You know, over the years. You've heard me talk a lot about marketing systems. Today I get to share something really special. My daughter Sarah Nay, who also happens to be the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, just released her first book. It's called Unchained Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models and How Small Business Can Finally Take Control of Their Marketing lead with strategy and scale with AI. I know a mouthful, right? But it's everything we've learned taken to the next level. In fact, we're even calling it duct tape marketing 3.0. As a dad, I couldn't be prouder. But I want you to check it out at DTM World Unchained and get ready to take your strategy to a whole new level. So we're talking about big brands essentially right now, but you've developed a framework that, you know, is really core to the book. Do you want to kind of walk us through some of the steps and like if you walked into a company and let's, you know, let's put the big brands aside. You walked into a company that kind of trying to make their way now, trying to, you know, what are kind of some of the steps you would take somebody through. And again, I, obviously I didn't give you a type of company or anything.
- [13:12]
Laura Reese
No, well, I mean, I, you've got tons of examples. And listen, we, I, I love working with entrepreneurs. I mean, that is actually the most exciting. They have such creative new ideas and potential. And not only that, most importantly, they have the courage and the balls to really do something different. Something that the big companies usually don't have. For example, in the mo toilet paper market, the early pioneers were, you know, Cottonelle Fresh Wipes, which never really went anywhere because it had a, you know, it was Cottonelle Kleenex Fresh Wipes something or other. They were trying to position a dual. You need two things. You need wet and dry which never really resonated until one guy was living in a post college apartment with a bunch of dudes eating, as he says, you know, lots of burritos, drinking late nights, and they needed some heavy duty cleaning up in the bathroom. So Ana's weekly trip to Costco, he picked up the usual baby wipes and a bunch of other stuff that the guys like to use. And he said, wait a minute, why isn't there a company that makes a product I want to use that's meant for me and my guy friends and cleans up like a baby wipe does, but is also flushable and environmentally friendly? And he did that. He just pioneered that category. It's called dude wipes. It has over $350 million a year. But it was just a guy with an idea. But first and foremost, he saw a problem. Right. He didn't create the category, but he said everyone is not doing it in the right way. They're not focused and they're not strongly calling out an enemy. I mean, Cottonell can't say, you know, dry toilet paper sucks, but dude Wipes can. Dude Wipes says you're wasting your time with that. You're just smearing it around. I mean, they say all sorts of crazy things, but a very powerful message by narrowing the focus, by taking on the enemy. And, you know, going in with entrepreneurs, it is so exciting because you can really take on the big guys. You don't have to be a big guy because you, you can, you know, you leverage where they're weak. And in every strength, there is always some kind of weakness. Even in Amazon, if you can believe it, a bunch of entrepreneurs launched Shopify and they said, you know, Amazon is not really serving the merchants right. They're all about the customer. And they do such a great job on that. They're kind of given the short shaft to the merchants. So, you know, Shopify is the merchant hero. They're, you know, they're setting it up so merchants can have their own stores, making it totally seamless, easy to do, you know, giving them all the tools, support they need. And they've been a very strong competitor to helping companies sell their goods on the Internet.
- [15:39]
Jon Jantz
Yeah. And they're, of course, their connected network has now made them even better.
- [15:43]
Laura Reese
It took time, but, you know, literally it was just a bunch of guys who, you know, tried to sell their own website and said, hey, maybe instead of, was it surfing stuff, I can't remember, but instead of selling this, I mean, they gave that up quick and said, we're just gonna you know, sell the software, the backbone of this. And now they added incrementally all the other things and bells and whistles that. That went along with it. But it's that key one idea. You know, Airbnb was the same way. I mean, it was, you know, a bunch of guys living in San Francisco that said, wait a minute, you know, at hot periods of conferences, it's impossible and very costly to get a hotel. Why don't we put some air mattresses in our living room? We're going to call it air bread and breakfast and rent out the room. And, you know, today they are taking on hotels in a big way.
- [16:29]
Jon Jantz
Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Like, you're seeing some hotels actually now try to get into that business a little bit, you know, to. Instead of just having their rooms, you know, actually buying houses and things.
- [16:42]
Laura Reese
But it was not the right idea because, listen, you know, I've stayed in an Airbnb, I've stayed in a hotel. There's advantages to hotels. I kind of like the fresh towels and the very clean sheets and the service that goes along with it. I mean, there's no one way to do something, you know, instead of, you know, thinking about how can we copy Airbnb, how can we make hotels a better deal, right, and celebrate what is, you know, a very nice, you know, experience in a hotel. Now, here's the other thing. The best thing you can do as a big company or when you get to that size, if you're an entrepreneur listening, is multiple brands. Give birth to your own enemy is a better strategy, not trying to put one brand on many things, instead having multiple brands, and you see even great examples. So Mike's Hard Lemonade was a big success at the turn of the century, as kids were turning away, you know, young drinking, adults were turning away from beer and other things. They enjoyed the Mike's Hard Lemonade. But as a few years went by, we realized it had just as much sugar as a Coke almost and a ton of calories, and we all were cutting carbs. So what did they do? Instead of line extending Mike's into. Well, they. They also did that, honestly, into, you know, light Mike's Light Lemonade. They launched White Claw, the first hard seltzer. And this, you know, this is the typhoon of seltzers of billions of dollars. And listen, it doesn't even taste very good. But it is a new category. And as a hard seltzer, you know that, again, naming the category is incredibly important. Zima. I mean, you're as old As I am. You know what, you remember Zima, they didn't know what it was. What was it? I mean, it was similar to, you know, again, what White Claw is selling. But you know, they didn't quite name the category and explain to us what it is. And when we don't know what something is, doesn't always taste very good. And that was one of the experiences of the Zimas.
- [18:40]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, that, that seltzer category is probably booming. Booming like beer. My, you know, craft beer was at one point.
- [18:46]
Laura Reese
Absolutely, absolutely. And not only that, there's a huge, there's always opportunity out there, which is what makes marketing and business and entrepreneur so exciting. You think like, I never thought there could be another water brand. I mean, how many hundreds of water brands? And then came liquid death. And you thought like beer. How many beer brands? But have you heard of this? Athletic brewing? This is the hottest new thing. It's beer without alcohol. What fun is that? But anyway, there's a big trend into drinking less. And do you really want to drink a Heineken zero or a Bud zero? I mean, come on. But this new brand owns the category and celebrates it and says, you know, live an athletic lifestyle, you know, no hangovers. And one of the things they did as an important part of the strategy is they knew they needed credibility, that this was something that was not just non alcoholic. I mean, there was o' tools and kind of other brands out there, but it was a good tasting, quality beer. And so they aggressively entered it into competitions and that drove a lot of the pr. In fact, one of the competitions, they beat beer with alcohol. They have, you know, just a great way of talking about it and pointing out that enemy, which is, you know, why bother with the alcohol? Why not live for a better tomorrow?
- [20:01]
Jon Jantz
Well, it's interesting because they created a subcategory non alcohol beer that tastes good. Because I think the category was there's non alcoholic beer. Right? Yeah, that was the category. So if they got lumped into that category, they probably weren't going to go anywhere. They're not going to fight Anheuser Bush, probably.
- [20:16]
Laura Reese
So yeah, yeah. Not being a line extension and not trying to look like a beer. The other thing they did that was very brilliant. And visuals matter. Visuals are incredibly important. Athletic only comes in cans. All of the other brands, you know, of course they offer it, but they promote the glass because they feel it. It looks premium and it does. But athletic, I mean, what's their position? I mean, athletic lifestyles, you can't bring gas a glass Bottle on a camping trip or a boat, you need the can. And the can and bright pastel colors was a distinctive difference that also communicated how different they were than all the other products.
- [20:53]
Jon Jantz
Yeah, so I want to end with a. You know, because I think a lot of people listening right now are getting very fired up about their. How they're going to go out there and create their enemy. What's the risk of creating, you call faux enemies? I mean, just kind of like making.
- [21:06]
Laura Reese
Them up, although you can't make them up.
- [21:11]
Jon Jantz
But certainly people try, right? I mean, it's like, here's our rivalry.
- [21:15]
Laura Reese
But it's like, yeah, the rivalry has to be real. And the. But it doesn't have to be something. For example, I've got a phone case. It's called Flaunt. What's their big difference? It's a square case, and that's an instantly visible difference. But they promote that as, you know, their. Their positioning, their difference, you know, what makes them great. And I love a square case. It looks cool. It's fun. I stick my iPhone in there. But, yeah, absolutely, it has to be not just, you know, blaming a boogeyman out there as the enemy, but something that. That is real. That's a tangible problem, a tangible enemy. And there's always more than ways, more than one way to do something. I mean, sometimes you want the very best, right? A high price can be a benefit. But sometimes, you know, also the ease of. And the shopping experience, for example, going to Costco, People love Costco. Even the Kirkland brand is rising, right? Because people are saying they're making a statement and the company's focus on producing very high quality. And also, you know, the ease of not over. You know, there's only 4,000 items. It really makes it much easier to choose when there's fewer things to choose from.
- [22:21]
Jon Jantz
That's funny, because of course, not every brand. Not every. Everybody's gonna like every brand. I don't like Costco. I think it's a terrible shopping experience. I go in there, and I can't find anything.
- [22:31]
Laura Reese
Well, you know, they do that on purpose because they want you to wander the aisles and see. I love the discovery of it. That's the point. Point. There is no one. And here's the problem. Most companies like Kmart, right, They're trying to appeal to everyone. They want people that, you know, want the bulk kind of Costco. They want people that want the simple shopping or they try to be everything. It's much better to take a very narrow stance and not worry if it doesn't appeal to everybody.
- [22:57]
Jon Jantz
I did love a good blue light special though. You gotta admit, that was amazing.
- [23:03]
Laura Reese
It was a visual idea. See, you can give your strategy some way to visualize it. It makes it much more powerful. I mean, think about duct tape. I mean what a great way to communicate something that's instantly understand in the mind. We know what we do with duct tape. We know how great duct tape is. It can fix anything and what you know, using metaphors like that are a great way to do brand.
- [23:25]
Jon Jantz
Awesome. Well, Laura, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the Duct Tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more certainly about Strategic Enemy but also horses and the things that you do around it.
- [23:37]
Laura Reese
Well, of course you can visit us online@reese.com and that's R I E S.com we've got strategice enemy.com and I've just launched a sub stack. Yay, exciting newsletters. I've got even the Reese hotline where companies are calling in. Well, it's fake. Don't tell anybody, but I pretend like companies are coming in and I give them really great advice. So check out those videos, check out my book and let's do positioning together and nail those strategic enemies.
- [24:04]
Jon Jantz
Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.
- [24:08]
Laura Reese
Absolutely.
- [24:20]
Jon Jantz
Hey, small business owners, let me ask you a quick question. Is your marketing actually working for you or just working you over? If you're tired of chasing random tactics and want real clarity, it's time for a strategy first approach. At Duct Tape Marketing, we help you build a marketing system you own, one that fits your business and finally puts you in control. No more chaos, no more guesswork. Just a roadmap you trust powered by smart strategy. And let's face it, a little help from AI today. You ready to shift from overwhelm to confidence? Head on over to DTM World ownit. DTM World ownit.