The Zero-Click Internet: What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy

Summary

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast: The Zero-Click Internet – What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy

Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Rand Fishkin, Co-Founder and CEO of SparkToro

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Introduction

In the February 26, 2025 episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes Rand Fishkin, the esteemed co-founder and CEO of SparkToro. Renowned for his expertise in marketing and his influential roles in founding Moz and inbound.org, Rand delves into a pivotal topic shaping the marketing landscape today: The Zero-Click Internet. This episode unpacks the nuances of zero-click searches, their implications for marketers, and strategic adaptations necessary in this evolving digital ecosystem.

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Understanding the Zero-Click Internet

Defining Zero-Click Searches
Rand Fishkin begins by tracing the origins of the term "zero-click," attributing its coinage to Gabriel Weinberg of DuckDuckGo in 2011. He explains:

“[Gabriel] described Google as having these zero click searches and zero click answers. This is the first sort of appearance of a zero click concept in the marketing world.” (02:30)

Zero-click searches occur when users find their answers directly on the search results page without needing to click through to an external website. Initially, this phenomenon was predominantly observed on Google, where features like instant answers, featured snippets, and AI-generated overviews provided immediate responses to user queries.

The Surge of Zero-Click Searches
Rand highlights the escalation of zero-click searches over the years:

“In 2019, Google answered just under half of all searches without a click... Fast forward to last year... that number is now 60%.” (03:21)

This significant rise underscores a shift in user behavior towards seeking quick, immediate answers without navigating away from the search platform.

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The Rise of Zero-Click Across Platforms

Beyond Google: A Universal Trend
Rand emphasizes that the zero-click paradigm isn't confined to Google alone. Major platforms have adopted similar strategies to retain user engagement:

“Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit, YouTube, TikTok, Slack. Every single platform realized that they could keep more people on their websites and their platforms if they stopped sending traffic out.” (04:12)

He provides examples, such as Twitter's algorithm preferring tweets without links and YouTube minimizing external URL visibility in descriptions. This trend illustrates a broader industry move to keep users within the platform’s ecosystem, reducing outbound traffic.

Amanda Natividad's Insight: Zero Click is Universal
Rand references his colleague Amanda Natividad's perspective:

“The zero click Internet is here and as a result the only thing to do is to create zero click content and do zero click marketing—influence people in the places they're already paying attention rather than demanding that they come to your platform.” (06:29)

This shift mandates marketers to innovate by crafting content that can engage and convert within the confines of these platforms.

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Implications for SEO and Marketing Strategies

Traffic Decline vs. Revenue Growth: A New Paradigm
Addressing concerns about declining web traffic, Rand counters the narrative of panic with evidence from HubSpot:

“They are indicative of a new trend that zero click marketing is almost certainly at the head of, which is traffic down, revenue up.” (07:25)

This phenomenon suggests that while overall traffic may diminish, revenue can increase if marketing strategies effectively target and convert quality leads within zero-click environments.

Adapting SEO Strategies
When advising SEO professionals, Rand delineates a shift from traditional methods:

“Break out of this mindset that everything has to be about SEO... It is a PR job. You're trying to create content and a message that people want to amplify and get that message amplified in the places they pay attention.” (08:04)
“[...] They might call it PR, influencer marketing, content placement... I don't really care what that's called. What I do care about is you should do it because it works.” (09:43)

He advocates for a broader, more integrated approach that encompasses public relations and content marketing to ensure messages are disseminated and amplified across relevant channels.

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The Role of AI and Large Language Models

AI Tools Transforming Search
Rand delves into the impact of AI and large language models (LLMs) on search behavior:

“70% of those prompts had no corollary at Google... ChatGPT is taking 30% away from a search engine.” (11:01)

This indicates a substantial shift where users are leveraging AI tools like ChatGPT for tasks that traditional search engines cannot fulfill, necessitating a reevaluation of marketing strategies to include AI optimization.

Sector-Specific AI Adoption
Rand underscores the necessity for businesses to understand their audience's use of AI tools:

“Every single business, every sector needs to figure out whether its customers and audience are using large language models and AI tools to perform search-like tasks inside their specific ecosystem.” (13:31)

He illustrates this with examples from SparkToro’s data, highlighting that certain sectors, like B2B software, have a higher propensity for AI tool usage compared to others, such as custom decking services.

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Adapting for Different Business Models

Local vs. National/B2B Businesses
Rand highlights the differentiation in strategies based on business models:

“If you're a local business... there are still people who, just as they did in 1720 or 1950... their primary resource is personal recommendations.” (13:31)

For local businesses, traditional word-of-mouth and localized online presence (e.g., Google Maps) remain crucial, whereas national and B2B entities must pivot towards digital and AI-infused strategies to engage their audiences.

Resource Allocation
He advises marketers to prioritize:

“Dedicate what limited resources you have to the best ones.” (14:46)

Efficient allocation ensures that efforts are concentrated on platforms and strategies that yield the highest engagement and conversion rates.

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Overcoming Attribution Challenges with SparkToro

The Attribution Dilemma
Rand critiques traditional attribution methods, pointing out their inherent biases and inaccuracies:

“I cannot recommend enough against asking people where they heard about you and then using that to determine your marketing budget. That is just logic. You know, you have failed Logic 101 in college.” (19:49)

SparkToro’s Clickstream Solution
Introducing SparkToro’s approach, Rand explains how clickstream data offers a more reliable means of understanding audience behavior:

“With SparkToro, you can search for your audience and see what websites, what topics, what social media platforms they use more or less than average.” (22:54)

This data-driven method allows marketers to identify and engage their audience across the platforms they frequent, ensuring more accurate and effective marketing investments.

Practical Example
Rand shares a case study where a customer discovered through SparkToro that their audience was actively using Reddit and TikTok, platforms they had previously neglected, prompting strategic investment in these channels.

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The Future of Google and Search

Is Google Dying?
Addressing the speculation around Google's decline, Rand counters with data-driven insights:

“Google grew about 10% in terms of searches per searcher last year and it grew in terms of number of total searchers last year.” (15:54)

He dismisses anecdotal claims about Google's deterioration, emphasizing that data indicates continued growth and relevance.

Google’s Expansive Ecosystem
Rand also points out that Google’s influence extends beyond search:

“You’re paying for Gmail, Sheets, Slides... They’re an ecosystem way beyond their ad network.” (17:47)

This diversified ecosystem ensures Google's sustained dominance and integral role in users' daily digital interactions.

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Final Thoughts and Resources

SparkToro and Beyond
Rand concludes by highlighting SparkToro’s offerings and his other ventures:

“At SparkToro, you can... search for your audience and see what platforms they're using... If folks are interested in an indie video game, check out @snapbarstudio.com.” (23:05 – 23:28)

He encourages listeners to leverage SparkToro for enhanced audience insights and to explore his indie game development endeavors with Snack Bar Studio.

Closing Remarks
John Jantsch wraps up the episode, appreciating Rand’s insights and encouraging listeners to connect further through SparkToro’s platform.

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Notable Quotes

• Rand Fishkin [03:32]: “Zero click, meaning that somebody goes and they don't go away, they get their answer and they don't leave Google.”
• Rand Fishkin [07:25]: “If your traffic goes down but your revenue goes up, should you be pissed at your marketing team or should you celebrate... I think it's the latter.”
• Rand Fishkin [08:04]: “Break out of this mindset that everything has to be about SEO... It is a PR job.”
• Rand Fishkin [19:49]: “You cannot recommend asking people where they heard about you to determine your marketing budget. It’s illogical.”
• Rand Fishkin [22:54]: “With SparkToro, you can see what websites, what topics, what social media platforms they use more or less than average.”

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Conclusion

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of the Zero-Click Internet and its far-reaching implications for modern marketing strategies. Rand Fishkin provides actionable insights, emphasizing the necessity for marketers to pivot towards content amplification, leverage AI tools, and employ robust audience research platforms like SparkToro to thrive in an increasingly zero-click world. As the digital landscape continues to evolve, adapting to these changes is imperative for sustained business growth and marketing efficacy.

Transcript

[Marketing Expert]

Let me ask you a few things. Do you feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you. Visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Grow.

[Jon Jantz]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantz. My guest today is Random Biskin. He's a co founder and CEO of Spark Toro, an audience research software company and indie game developer at Snack Bar Studio. We probably ought to talk about indie games, huh? Passionate about helping marketers, he shares insights through writing, speaking and his book Lost and Founder previously co founded Moz and inbound.org and co authored the Art of SEO. He's going to talk about. We are going to talk today about zero click, something that I said off air you were probably getting tired of talking about, but still a lot of people want to hear about. Welcome to the show. Ran.

[Rand Fishkin]

Great to be here, John. No, I don't think, I don't think people are tired of talking about zero click. I think there's a lot of people who a don't, don't totally know what it is and b are feeling the effects of it, even if they're not super into the tactical and strategic world of zero click marketing.

[Jon Jantz]

So having said that, maybe we ought to define that's what we're talking about. Right. And maybe even talk about. I mean, you've been following Google for, I don't know, since Google was born, Right. So, you know, when did it start showing up?

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah. So the term, I believe was coined by initially Gabriel Weinberg at DuckDuckGo. That was the first instance I could find of it in 2011. Gabriel described Google as having these zero click searches and zero click answers. This is the first sort of appearance of a, of a zero click concept in the marketing world. And a few years later I did a study with Jumpshot which was, which is a now defunct clickstream data provider. And Jumpshot worked with me to see what percent of all Google searches ended without a click. Essentially they stayed inside Google's ecosystem either by, you know, going to opening up the Google Maps app or getting their answer right at the top of the results through those instant answers or featured snippets or now AI overviews.

[Jon Jantz]

Right, right, right. So, so I guess that maybe you're going to say it there. The zero click, meaning that somebody goes and they don't go away, they get their answer and they don't leave Google. Right? Zero.

[Rand Fishkin]

So that, yeah, and that was, that was the initial idea of like, oh, there's these zero click searches and search marketing might be changing as a result and maybe we should think about, rather than trying to get traffic, simply provide the answer to the searcher right to the user. In 2019, Google answered just under half of all searches without a click. So like 49% or something. Fast forward to last year. I just did this study again with DDoS and that number is now 60%. So 60% of searches are answered without a click, which as a user is super convenient and as a publisher is terrifying.

[Jon Jantz]

Well, that goes to a point. I mean there are some that are saying this is an evil plot by Google, but really it's like behavior, right? I mean it's like this is what the user wants. I know as somebody who's trying to get a quick, I want to know what time the ball game starts. You know, I don't need to go to ESPN's website, right. And read the history of football before I get the time right.

[Rand Fishkin]

That's exact. That's exactly right. If you want to know how old Paul Rudd is or you want to see which, you know, channel you can watch SNL50 on or you're trying to figure out what are the ingredients in Moroccan spices. You know what, Google can just answer those things for you and it is incredibly convenient. So zero click searches started with Google, but they did not end there. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit, YouTube, TikTok, Slack. Every single platform realized that they could keep more people on their websites and their platforms if they stopped sending traffic out. And so, you know, Twitter was one of the early adoptees of this. Their algorithm, this is probably 2016, 17, their algorithm started biasing against links. If you included a link in a tweet Twitter would limit the reach of that tweet substantially compared to a tweet that did not contain a link. That's true on Facebook as well. It's true on LinkedIn as well. You can see it in subreddits where moderators and Reddit themselves started down voting and stopping the promotion of submissions that contained a link. YouTube started minimizing the description field so that it would hide any URL external URL link that would take you off of YouTube. So every single platform is doing this over and over. And my colleague Amanda Natividad, when she joined SparkToro, she sort of came up with this idea that zero click is not just about search, it's about all platforms. The zero click Internet is here and as a result the only thing to do is to create zero click content and do zero click marketing influence people in the places they're already paying attention rather than demanding that they come to your platform and requiring traffic to be your only KPI.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah. And you know, a lot of the people, the sky is falling. You know, looking at the results, there was a pretty Sexy headline that HubSpot had lost 72% of their traffic or something like that. But can we say that a percentage of that, maybe a large percentage, was kind of garbage traffic anyway? I mean it wasn't intent traffic. It was like, oh, they published a listicle and somebody went to that because they wanted the list, but they didn't want anything to do with HubSpot.

[Rand Fishkin]

Well, John, I don't know if, if you did what I did. As soon as I saw that headline, I went and looked up Hubstock, HubSpot stock price and their latest earnings report and guess what? Yeah, the record highs. Right. So. So HubSpot and a whole bunch of other platforms. I did a whole blog post and a video about this. They are indicative of a new trend that zero click marketing is almost certainly at the head of, which is traffic down, revenue up.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah.

[Rand Fishkin]

If your traffic goes down but your revenue goes up, should you be pissed at your marketing team or should you celebrate the fact that, that they are finding opportunities in a zero click Internet world for your message and your influence to reach the right audience and attract the right customers? I think it's the latter.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so you started to hint at what to do now if you're especially SEO folks, you know, or I mean they, they'd kind of dialed in the game, right? So now like what's the new game? I mean, for SEO folks, if you were advising a group of SEO folks You know, talking, doing a keynote. You know, what would you be telling them that they need to be doing, how they need to be changing their model?

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah, I'm actually, I'm, I'm giving a keynote at SMX Munich to a couple thousand people next month. And the topic, John, you'll like this is called it's the End of Traffic as we Know it. And I feel fine.

[Jon Jantz]

Great, that's awesome.

[Rand Fishkin]

And, and the basic, the basic premise here is that, look, if you're an SEO, some of you will have no choice. Your, your boss, your team, your client, they're going to say, I don't care what Rand Fishkin says. I don't care what's going on in Google. I don't care about zero click marketing. You get me? Traffic. That's your job.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah.

[Rand Fishkin]

You know what? Okay. You're going to have to focus on the few keywords that send traffic and sort of the 40% of searchers that click and you know, the platforms that still do send some traffic, that kind of thing. But for everyone else, I would urge you to break out of this mindset that everything has to be about SEO, Right. That classic SEO is the only thing that you're good at. SEOs, at least when I was an SEO, you know, seven years ago now, it was not just about ranking in Google. Right. There was lots of things that you'd have to do as part of that. Things around accessibility, your website. Sure. But also placement of content on third party websites and pitching and essentially. Yeah, yeah, A public relations job. Right. It is a PR job. You're trying to create content and a message that people want to amplify and get that message amplified in the places they pay attention. I'm not sure exactly what the industry is going to end up calling that. Maybe they'll call it pr, maybe they'll call it the new form of influencer marketing. Maybe they'll call it content placement or, or off site content marketing. I don't really care. I don't care what that's called. What I do care about is you should do it because it works.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, you made that point about why everybody's so fixed on SEO. I think for a lot of SEO folks it was easy, cheap traffic and in some cases easy cheap conversions and business. And so I think we got lazy and I think that to me that was a big part of it. But what about that business that is all about trust and authority? Content was huge for them to drive, you know, folks to their website they couldn't buy ads. Ads were useless to them. You know, what is that business like a professional services business? How do they survive in this world?

[Rand Fishkin]

The reality is when your business model gets disrupted, you either decide to embrace the change that's coming or you face the consequences. And I think the consequences are not nothing. It's not all going to die. SEO isn't going to go away. That's not what's happening. It's just going to become a lower growth rate industry or even a shrinking industry over time, as CMOs and CEOs and boards of directors wake up to the fact that the opportunity in organic types of marketing might lie elsewhere, I. E. Influencing people in the places where they already play.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, the new sexy term is aio. How much do we need to pay attention to that?

[Rand Fishkin]

It varies quite a bit. If you're in B2B, especially B2B tech, and you're selling to other B2B techies, the answer is you probably need to pay some attention to it. There was a great report from Semrush recently where they looked at the clickstream data. I like clickstream data a lot. I think it, it really tells the story accurately. They looked at 80 million different click streams of people who visited and used ChatGPT and they analyzed what they did with the platform, the prompts that they put in, all that kind of stuff. What I found quite interesting there is 70% of those prompts had no corollary at Google. So you couldn't, you could not perform the task that was asked of ChatGPT in Google's ecosystem outside Gemini whatsoever. Right. This is an AI type of task. It's like saying how much market share is Microsoft Excel taking from Google search? What? None. Like that's, people are doing different things with that. ChatGPT is taking 30% away from a search engine. Right. Or adding it to it. Right. Those are those, those are people who are using it for that replacement thing. But I think the answer here is every single business, every sector needs to figure out whether its customers and audience are using large language models and AI tools to perform search like tasks inside their specific ecosystem. You know, not to promote SparkToro, but I, I don't know of another place you can do this, but you, you can inside SparkToro because what that, that's what we do at clickstream data, right? You can go and you can search for, you know, my audience is science fiction writers or interior designers or you know, painters or landscaping professionals or I want to find people who search for backyard Gardens and, and sparktora will then tell you in the AI and tools section which platforms they're using and how much more or less than normal. So you could see, for example, I ran a search recently for people who do custom decking, like for their backyards. They don't use AI tools very much. Right, right. That's not their goal. But if you look for people who are searching for B2B CRN software, well yeah, they are using ChatGPT and Gemini and Kagi and all these different AI tools, much more than average. You probably need to pay attention to large language model optimization.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, that's a great, great point. I've seen a real divide between the idea of local businesses versus national or B2B like you mentioned, like that Decker, you know, that you talked about, that's, that's fixing people's homes. I mean he's probably got people in his geography or he or she that's looking for them. And you know, Google Maps and some of those tools are still their friend, right?

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah, absolutely. And this, I mean I, I, I don't know what to tell you, John. Like there's, there's still people who, just as they did in 1720 or 1950 or 2001, their primary resource for which person am I going to use to build my deck? Is they ask their neighbor, they ask their friend. Right. And that, that is a source of influence that is influenceable via different means than, you know, a highway billboard or a Google search or an AI tool or a social media platform. And so your job as a marketer is to figure out the sources of your audience influence and be present in those places, hopefully commensurate with how much they use them.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, yeah. And dedicated what limited resources you have to the best ones, right?

[Rand Fishkin]

Exactly.

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[Jon Jantz]

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[Jon Jantz]

Another sexy headline. Is Google's dead. So is there dominance? You know, is there dominance going to fade? I mean, obviously the cash cow depends on people going to their homepage and clicking on ads instead of getting answers.

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah. So it's funny, I was just asked about this by some reporters. I don't like to give opinion based answers here. Right. Oh, Google's getting worse. I ran this search and I got a bunch of junk in my results where 10 years ago when I ran this search, I used to get good stuff. I, I don't like those types of anecdotal replies and responses. I don't trust them. The thing I trust is data at scale. So what, what I would look at if I were a reporter trying to answer the question, is Google dying? Is Google getting worse? Is, are there more or less people searching on Google than there were last year at the same time? Are there more or fewer searches per searcher than there were last year at this time? Yeah, the answer to both of those, according to some research that I, that I hope to publish in the next couple weeks actually is no. Google grew about 10% in terms of searches per searcher last year and it grew in terms of number of total searchers last year. You don't have to believe me, by the way, or Dais's numbers if you prefer. You can look at what Sundar Piche said in the earnings call, the Google earnings call two weeks ago. He said the same thing and, and our data bears it out. So I, you know, I don't always trust Google to tell us the truth. But in this case, all the data sources agree. If Google is getting worse, then the only, the only logical response is well, if they're getting worse, everything else, all the alternatives must be even worse because people are still using them more and more.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah. And I think, I think people under or forget, you know, they're more than just that search box as well. You know, I pay Google a couple hundred, couple hundred bucks every month to use Gmail and sheets and slides and all those kinds of things too. So they're an ecosystem way beyond their ad network, aren't they?

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, but I want to be clear, I'm not talking about their earnings report in terms of their dollar, you know.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, of growth. Right, yeah, right.

[Rand Fishkin]

Growth in, in raw searches.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah. So another, another topic that, and, and this is right up your alley. So I'm inviting you to talk about SparkToro here. Is that Attribution is just getting harder and harder. And yet, as I listen to your talk, it's more important maybe than ever. Like, where are your people hanging out and actually reading stuff and, and, and, you know, how do you find them? So how, how do you advise businesses to, to really kind of arm themselves with better attribution?

[Rand Fishkin]

Gosh.

[Jon Jantz]

Oh, I asked a hard question. I like that.

[Rand Fishkin]

Wow. You. Here's the problem. You've set me up once again to like, tee up my own software. And I really, that was my, that.

[Jon Jantz]

Was my, that was my entire intent. So I did well.

[Rand Fishkin]

But, you know, you know, I don't like to be self promotional. Okay, first off, there are, there are several ways to do this. Some of them good, some of them bad. One of the ones that a lot of people use that I really don't like is they do post consumer service. So this is, you know, you just bought this pair of shoes from Nike. Nike sends you an email and they ask you, how did you find us? Or they ask you at the end of the checkout process, you know, how did you learn about these shoes today? What made you buy from us? And people will give answers that are incomplete, often inaccurate. And if you're a marketer, you're only ever going to get answers from channels and sources that you already reach. So you will never know about the ones that didn't send you traffic. Right. This is a huge bias problem. I cannot recommend enough against asking people where they heard about you and then using that to determine your marketing budget. That is just logic. You know, you have failed Logic 101 in college and you're gonna get kicked out of the class.

[Jon Jantz]

Well, and you're all, you're also going to pay Facebook a lot more money because everybody says they saw your Facebook ad, right?

[Rand Fishkin]

It depends on the sector. So we tried this. One of my, One of my favorite stories, John, is early in the Spark, after Spark Toro's launch, we tried this with one of our customers. We asked them, this is a consumer brand in the food industry. So they like sell a food product. I don't have permission to mention who they are, but they sell a food product direct to consumers. And we said, hey, can you try something for us? Would you put these two. I think it was like Martha Stewart and it wasn't Guy Fieri, but it was some other, like, notable food person in the food world. We asked them to put that in their dropdown list of places where people had heard about them. Yeah, guess what, John? Those people had never mentioned the brand they had never talked about them and 30% of the customers said, yeah, that's where I heard about you.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah.

[Rand Fishkin]

So just, you know, you're getting terrible data, like, absolutely terrible data. The, the second one, the one that I do quite like, is to look at, broadly speaking, your. If, if you use a competitive intelligence platform and you can see where traffic is going to your competitors, that can make reasonable sense. Right. So similar web is a good resource for that. Obviously, SparkToro offers that type of data as well from a competitive perspective. I think, I think Semrush, the folks I mentioned who did that research. Yeah, I think they might have some of that in their platform, but it might be search centric. So be careful you're not just getting biased by Google stuff. And then the, you know, the absolute best one, the absolute best way to do this is learn lockpicking, get the home addresses of all your customers, break into their houses, steal their phone, get the phone unlock code, and then look at everything that they read, browse, watch, subscribe to. Follow that, of course, super illegal, highly unethical.

[Jon Jantz]

Plus Alexa's already doing it anyway, so.

[Rand Fishkin]

Yeah, you got a lot of competition for that. But the next closest thing is essentially clickstream data, which is, you know, a panel of users and the providers look at every URL that's visited and then you can sort of take a broad group of people and extrapolate what a general population does. That's what we do at SparkToro. And so, you know, if you want to see, you can type in your website or competitor's website or a search term that people use in Google or a descriptor that people use in their bias. And then you can see what websites, what topics, what social media platforms they use more or less than average. And that can, that can be a good way to sort of get a sense of, hey, you know, a lot of our customers are using, I don't know, Reddit and we're not there at all. A lot of our customers are on TikTok or LinkedIn or Pinterest or they're using ChatGPT or they're using Gemini, and we're not in those places. We should probably be making investments there.

[Jon Jantz]

Yeah, well, Rand, we're. We've run out of time. I appreciate you dropping by. We've mentioned sparktoro.com a couple times. Anywhere else that you'd invite people to connect with you and learn more about your work?

[Rand Fishkin]

Sure. Well, you know, at the, at the start of our chat today, you mentioned Snack Bar Studio, so If folks are interested in an indie video game where you get to play an Italian chef in the 1960s, you can. You can check that [e-mail] and who isn't and who and who isn't. It's not live yet, but give us about 18 months and and there'll be an early access version on Steam.

[Jon Jantz]

Awesome.

[AdCritter]

Awesome.

[Jon Jantz]

Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon. Out there on the road.

[Rand Fishkin]

Let me.

[Marketing Expert]

Ask you a few things. You feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don't worry if you can't answer yes to any or all of these questions. You're not alone. See, marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture, the overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years, I've worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next, confidence to charge ahead and charge more, and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our Strategy first program is right for you, visit DTM World Grow and request a free consultation. That's DTM World Growing.