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- [00:00]
A
What if the real growth constraint inside an agency is not lead generation or fulfillment, but the way client relationships are managed after the sale? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. My guest is Taylor McMaster, founder of Dot and Company, a business built around helping digital marketing agencies improve client retention through better client account management. Rather than focusing on campaigns or delivery, Taylor specializes in the client facing side of agency growth, onboarding, communication, meetings, project flow and account management systems. She also hosts the Happy Clients podcast and her experience building DOT and Company is a specialized acquisition ready business gives her a unique perspective on retention, specialization and creating an agency model. And that can grow beyond the founder. So welcome Taylor.
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B
Thanks for having me, John.
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A
So you know, as I read that I, I, we, we are talking about agencies here, but quite frankly, account management, you know, there's a lot of business types of businesses that have that function or should have that function. Is there something that you saw really convinced you that that was really a core growth issue and not what most people focus on, getting more clients?
- [01:21]
B
Yeah, I would say in the beginning of starting DOT and Company, it was mainly a pain point for the agency owners that I knew. They were all working so hard on building their marketing funnels and getting leads on their calendar and closing those leads, but they didn't have the time or energy to think about keeping those clients around. And they knew in their heart that they needed somebody to do this job, but they almost approached it as more of a butt in the seat. They were like, oh, I just need to hire an account manager and then my days will be free and I won't have to talk to clients ever again. But they didn't realize that account management really is part of the whole picture. It's retaining your clients, keeping them around and in turn that really affects your bottom line. So yeah, yeah.
- [02:09]
A
And you know, there's another element to that too. I think it's easy to focus on retention, but like we retain our clients forever. I mean my longest running client is 22 years and so we've been through a lot together. But, but we keep our clients for years and, but where we sometimes struggle is we, our model is pretty much retainer based. So it's like, what can you afford to pay me for the rest of your life? But then we find out like three or four years later we're like, well, we need to actually charge more. And so how can client management, account managers, you know, actually be put in sort of the role of selling?
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B
Yeah, yeah. Upselling is a huge part of our role and the way I always look at it is as an account manager, I am responsible for the whole client experience.
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A
Right?
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B
And so that is not just onboarding a client and managing their project. It's making sure I'm doing the best that I can for that client, because at the end of the day, I'm responsible for that relationship. And keeping them around. And keeping them around means giving them the best outcome and making sure that we're helping them hit their business goals. And oftentimes when we as agency owners are working with a client, those business needs evolve. And there's always something that is changing or we need to layer on top of something. And my job as the account manager is to be looking for those things or finding these opportunities that I can continue to help my client evolve. And we want to be a part of that. We don't want this client to outgrow us. We want to grow with that client, clients. So that's a huge part of our role and responsibility.
- [03:44]
A
That's almost a culture point, isn't it? I mean, because I think a lot of people are like, well, that's not my job. My job is to make sure that this stuff goes out the door. And so it really has to be that that almost needs. I mean, that not almost. That needs to be part of the job description, doesn't it?
- [03:58]
B
Yes, it does. And I think you see this all the time. John, I'm sure, is. In our industry, I find people are so siloed in their roles and they put a box around themselves. They're like, well, that's not my job. I'm not doing. But what I have always. How I've always worked is I'm just a. A person who wants to get my fingers into everything. And I want to help with sales and I want to help with operations and all this stuff. So the way we've kind of packaged up our account manager expectations within the role is that you need to want to help the other teams and help the business grow, or else that's you. Why are you here? Right.
- [04:38]
A
You know, you mentioned the word expectations, and I was going to bring that up. I feel like anytime we've lost a client over the. Really been a mismatch in expectations. Right. Our clients, you know, we're. We've basically said, look, the next 90 days we're going to be doing strategy or, you know, whatever it is, and the client's like, two weeks in, they're like, how come the phone's not ringing? You know, how do you actually work on managing Communication, expectations, trust, you know, throughout the process.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, you know, it's, it. I wish I had a SOP for this, but really it's. My methodology is over communication, proactive communication. And to me, proactive communication is not just, hey, we're doing strategy for the next 90 days and then hoping that the client understands that it is every day over communicating and making sure that we are on the same page over and over and over again. Because that client doesn't know anything generally about what in the world you're doing. And even though you have sold them on the story of, you know, the outcomes that you're going to get them, they don't understand how we go from here to actually hitting those goals for my business. So we need to consistently reset expectations every day, whether we need, we feel like we need to or not. So my methodology has always been we need to be proactively communicating with our clients. And the biggest thing I see, and I see this even when I'm working with other businesses is every day that goes by that I'm not communicated with. I think they're doing absolutely nothing.
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A
Right, Right.
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B
Like we're human beings. That's just how we work. And so if you're not constantly proactively updating them, reiterating the next steps, reiterating the expectations, that client thinks, well, I just wasted another 10 grand.
- [06:31]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So I will tell you, we have a very formalized onboarding process. We have a very different process in that one of the first things, most of the people we work with are owners, founders, and we dig into their business objectives before we ever start talking about marketing. And one of the things we've discovered early on, I mean, to me it just made sense, it was logical. But one of the things we discovered very early on is most people don't do that and that it having a formalized, structured onboarding process is even a unique experience for a lot of folks. And what I've discovered is that's one of the secrets to our long term retention is how a client starts with you is certainly going to determine a ton about how long they stay with you, what the relationship looks like, whether you become an advisor or a vendor.
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B
Yeah. And I think that starts in the sales process too.
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A
It does.
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B
You know, we sometimes, you know, we'll struggle and when working with agencies, when their sales team is not setting the right expectations and we're not getting the information that we need to kind of pull that over the line. So what I love to do as an account manager is working directly with the sales team so that I understand what this client needs and wants right from the beginning. So that when I then take them on under my wing and I'm managing this relationship, I know the backstory and I'm not trying to catch up or just take their word on it. I want to know everything. So getting an account manager involved in that sales process is super helpful.
- [08:00]
A
Well, I tell you, one of the things we learned a lot of time too, because when I started my agency and I've written a couple books that were very popular, so people would be attracted to us, but they were really attracted to me. And so naturally I would close them and go, oh, by the way, have you met Taylor? And one of the things that we discovered early on is bringing those folks that are going to work with them in, like you said in that sailor sales process, they don't feel like they're handed off anymore. They're like, oh, you mean I get the team, you know, as opposed to, oh, now I get the B team and is, boy, it made such a huge difference.
- [08:35]
B
So John, I'm curious, when your account managers came into the sales process, were they on every sales call or how did you structure that?
- [08:43]
A
Fortunately, we, most of our leads are inbound just because we've been around so long and a lot of stuff's out there. So we closed especially for strategy most of the time in one call. And so consequently we try to get those folks involved. I mean, it may be a second call. Like now we're going to have a call for discovery as when we'll bring that per and we'll definitely make sure that everybody's going to be involved is there so that they see what they're getting. And then we will also, you know, our first step always starts with something we call strategy first. So it's a very scripted, structured process and deliverable. And we actually have everybody on the team deliver a part of that to the client. And so they get a kind of a full blown experience, you know, within the first 30 days of everybody they're going to work with.
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B
Awesome. That's really cool.
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A
So on that same topic, I we actually have a network of, you know, over 100 agencies that we work with and train and have licensed our methodology. And one of the struggles they quite often have is as they start to grow, it's like, oh, I want to add account manager, but then they really have trouble letting go. It's like, okay, I hired an account manager or maybe even a lead consultant, let's call them that. And yet they still micromanage every element and it's really, really tough. And I, you know, I hate to answer for you, but I have a feeling I know what your answer's going to be. How do people get to the point where they can feel like, okay, the client's getting the experience I would give them?
- [10:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's totally valid to feel that way. As an entrepreneur, a business owner. I get it. You know, we've all gone through that where we have to pass over relationships because it's the only way that we can grow and scale a business. Right. Is to not be on every slack message and every zoom call. But I think the biggest thing is obviously hiring the right people. That's just a no brainer. You know, you have to have the right people. But trust comes over time and it's not something that you have to rush into and it's not something that has a 30 day expiry. You know, you have to be out of client calls within 30 days. You can build that trust over time. Maybe it's a six month Runway and, you know, the account manager comes in and they shadow and then they take over a little bit and a little bit more until clients go to them first instead of you. And clients realize that, you know, Betty's getting back to them way faster. And even though you're still there and still in the background or maybe still on the strategy, Betty can still be there and do a great job. And so once you start to build that trust, then you get to a point where you're like, I shouldn't be here, I should not be in the account manager seat because Betty's doing a way better job. And then you can then go focus on more important things. But until you get to that pivot point where you're feeling really good about that account manager, for a lot of agency owners, you don't have to run away yet. You don't have to close your eyes and hope for the best. You know, it can be a gradual thing. And so I think when you're thinking about hiring for an account manager, stop thinking about it as just a butt in the seat and stop thinking about somebody just replacing you, because nobody's going to replace you, but somebody can come in and support you and support your clients to give them a really great experience.
- [12:02]
A
Well, and the other thing I would add to that, certainly, and why this is such a challenge for most of the agencies we work with is because they've actually never created a process. It's all here and it's all, God. And it's like, how can you get. Expect somebody else to replicate that? You can't. And it's a ton of work to get from here to wherever you put it.
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B
Yep.
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A
But the payoff is huge. I don't do any sales calls, I don't do any client work in our, you know, business. And I spend an inordinate amount of time innovating our processes is what I do partly is because I like it, but it is the most valuable work I can do. But it's tough to, you know, to magically, you know, snap your fingers and get there. But that's. That should be the goal, I think, for most of them.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah. And I think it depends on what your goals are. Right. I always, whenever I'm chatting with agency owners, they're like, I need an account manager because I want to get out of the day, day to day. But really they don't. Like, they actually don't want to. Right. So, you know, a lot of the time it's understanding where you want your business to go.
- [13:07]
A
Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I think that's, that's probably the challenge too because, you know, the founders are really bad at, you know, once they get to a point where, like, I really kind of like to get in there and mess with WordPress and, you know, because I really enjoy doing it. But, I mean, it's the lowest payoff work you could possibly do. Right. But it's so fun, you know, and so that's, that's a real challenge a lot of times. How do you create, especially in today's world? I was meeting with a group of agencies in our network today, and they were complaining a little bit about the fact that their work, clients were actually taking their work and running it through ChatGPT and saying, you know, is this good? Is this valid? You know, where are the mistakes in this? And I think that we're increasingly going to face that. Right. Because everybody's advertising, you know, replace your agency for free, you know, with all these AI tools. So how do we actually rise above that and not only create like this high touch experience, but really be. Become this trusted advisor and really not be seen as that vendor.
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B
Yeah, I mean, it's. We're in it right now. Right. We're in the blender trying to figure out how things are going to shake out. I think the biggest thing that I see, especially coming from the account management side of things.
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A
Yeah.
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B
People are going to crave this human experience more and more, but they're going to expect efficiency, they're going to expect more for their money, they're going to expect better results. So I think even though we see all this noise about AI replacing my agency, I think that's not going to happen. I think it's just changing our expectations when we work with clients. And so I think the value is still there. I think we just need to shift to more really consultative, making sure that clients feel heard, they feel understood and that we're a partner versus just somebody running their ads. And I think the, the expectations of our clients are going to continue to evolve in the sense where they're going to demand us to take it all off their plate. Like what business owner wants to stay on ChatGPT all day trying to figure out marketing? Even if it's through ChatGPT, they don't have the time or energy or expertise to do that. So it's just really making sure that they understand the value of what you're doing.
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A
And trust me, we don't want a client that wants to be on chat GPT all day.
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B
No, we do not. No, we do not.
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A
So what led you to kind of choose? I mean, you're in the agency space, but in kind of a narrow lane in the agency space. What made you decide to go there instead of, you know, the broader kind of agency?
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B
Yeah, really kind of boring. But it was just what I loved. I loved account management and I didn't love what I thought running an agency previously because I started running my own small agency and then pivoted into just doing account management. I think as that started I started to realize that there was this blue ocean. There was this huge need in our industry for great account managers and done differently because we are fractional account managers. What everyone else is doing in the industry is hiring full time people. And so we were just doing things differently. And so I, as the business started to grow, I realized there was this, yeah, this huge opportunity to specialize and to create something really awesome and to be known for that. Being a general agency, I just couldn't, I couldn't get excited about it. So yeah, it just kind of took off. And once I saw some traction and we started to get the demand, we just really went all in on the processes like you said, John. It was like where I spent all my time was like operationalizing everything from hiring to training to onboarding, offboarding sales, everything was systematized and it paid off.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So, so talk to me a little bit about the fractional approach. We have gone both ways. I Mean, we actually provide fractional CMO services and we teach people how to do that. Sometimes the disconnect is, you know, there's a lot of like, yeah, fractional, I can save money. It'll be, you know, I don't need a full time person. But you know, a lot of ways they still want a full time person. Right. They still want you in all their silly meetings that they have. So you do have to. Obviously that's one of the beauties of having a scope and a methodology. It's like, here's what I do, here's what you get as opposed to what do you need? Right. But on the fractional account managers, do you find that there's a challenge in somebody being there fractionally or maybe doing a couple clients is really not going to be as motivated to be a team player to, you know, to want to do all the sort of team building that, you know, that really helps an agency. How do you kind of straddle that, you know, that divide? Especially since we're all distributed these days.
- [18:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. I would say the. When I started the business, I was an, I was the account manager at dot. So naturally I got to choose how I wanted it to look and feel. And for me, for me to be motivated working inside of these agencies, I needed to be a part of the team and a part of the culture. So early on, I was going to the team events, I was flying in for the weekend, I was doing the team calls and the cocktail hour. And that really made me feel like a part of the team and it made me stick around for a really long time working in these agencies. And so as soon as we started to hire account managers and duplicate this model, we made sure that was the expectation. We want these account managers to feel like a full time team member. We want them in your slack, in everything, as if you hired them full time. We want them to feel like that, not just for you, but for our account managers as well. We want them to feel a part of the team. So we approached it very much so, like, yes, we're fractional, but it feels full time because that's how I think it, it should be.
- [19:11]
A
Okay, I'm going to throw you a softball. Are you sure? Are you a sports analogy person?
- [19:15]
B
I'm not, but I'll take it.
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A
Okay, but you get it, right? It's a bigger ball than a little ball to hit. It's easier to hit. Okay, so I can hire somebody for $20 an hour in the Philippines. Why don't I just do that?
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B
Yeah, you definitely can. But the majority of the agencies we work with are looking for specialists. They're looking for people who they don't have to manage, they don't have to train, they don't have to worry if they know what they're doing. They want somebody ready to go. So essentially they need somebody to parachute in and save all their problems, fix the processes, keep their clients happy and continue to grow and scale from there. So we really approach ourselves as specialists. You know, you don't. This is the last time you're ever going to have to go and like look for an account management solution because you're covered when you work with us.
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A
I'm curious. Your business was acquired fairly recently. Looking back, is there a part of your company that you think made it more attractive? I mean, revenue is always going to be a piece of it, but was there anything that you think made it more attractive to a buyer than the typical business?
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B
A big piece was that I was removed from the day to day operations. Yeah, that was definitely attractive from a risk perspective too. You know, they didn't have to worry
- [20:38]
A
about any dummy can run this business now.
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B
Exactly. There you go. And then the second thing was specialized. So, you know, they were buying something that was very specific and had a very specific scope process.
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A
You're still involved in the business though.
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B
I am. I'm not part of the deal. Yeah. I didn't have to stay on, to be honest. It wasn't a requirement. I'm not involved in any of the operations. So you won't see me on a team call unless it's like high level. I'm more so a consultant strategist, you know, and I really want to stay around and see the growth in DoT and also E2M, the company who bought us. Like I absolutely love them, what they're doing. So yeah, I'm excited to be a part of kind of this bigger picture now.
- [21:26]
A
Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there anywhere you'd invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work?
- [21:34]
B
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so feel free to add me on LinkedIn and connect or check out our website and company co.
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A
Awesome. Well, I again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we'll run into you soon out there on the road.
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B
We will. Thanks, John. It.