A (3:01)

So. So maybe there's not either, or you maybe just tell people. Both can be true, but certainly. Well, I haven't asked the question yet. There are two things, because I have a lot of people that. There are a lot of people that want to be speakers, and they, you know, they start out at a low fee and maybe they work up, I don't know, let's say $10,000, you know, as for a keynote. But then there were other speakers, myself included, when I was getting started that if I got in a room of 50 prospects, I would come away with a hundred thousand dollars worth of business. I didn't care about being paid because I knew the opportunity to get in that room was more important than what I might make as a speaker. How do you balance those? And again, like. Like I said, can both be true?

B (3:46)

I think that there are two different lanes that you have to decide what you want to run in. There is the keynote is your product, which means it's not about selling a product, it's about delivering a keynote. And then the other lane is called lead gen speaking or selling from stage, which means you get no fee, which is exactly what you're talking about, John. But you have free reign to sell from the stage. And in that case, you know, the whatever money you make in the back of the room becomes your fee for being there. But I am a big advocate for the keynote being the product. And in my in Mic Drop workshop, I teach people a framework called moment, meaning where you share a moment, a lived experience. And then what's the takeaway for the audience? Your moment can be a story in your business. It could be for me, you know, I told the story probably on your podcast, losing money to a fraudulent manufacturer, starting my business, Headbands of Hope. And then the meaning is, you know, failures don't have to be the end. It can be, you know, just a pivot in your story. But now I'm not going up there selling headbands of hope, but now everybody knows about it, right? And so I don't necessarily think that you have to choose between being a lead gen speaker and keynote speaker. I think use the story of your company in your keynote and that way it becomes a Both.

A (5:10)

And yeah, you know, it's funny, I do remember early on I certainly took that very much that approach of I'm just here to deliver lots of value, teach you guys lots of stuff. Hopefully it's awesome. And I remember early on a couple times where people come up to me say, like, what do you actually do? You know, how could I actually hire you? And I thought, oh, yeah, maybe I somehow need to work. That is more than just, I'm just here to teach you stuff. So. So how do you kind of balance that? I never called it selling from the stage because I, you know, I didn't have like a 500 course that they could go back there and buy. It was really more that at some point, you know, I, in fact, I had a speaking engagement that early on in my career, I'm sure I wasn't paid for it. And the gentleman came up and said, I really liked what you said, you know, can you come talk to us? And that was in 2004. He's still the client today. So millions of dollars worth of business from that client came from him actually coming up to me and saying, I liked what you had to say, but like, how do I hire you? So how do you balance kind of that, you know, that you do want people to know that you can help them solve the problem you just described, Right?

B (6:19)

Exactly. I think alongside with using how you help people as an anecdote in your keynote, as a way to get a point across, there are, you know, with, I work with coaches, they can say, when I coach people on this topic, I tell them this. Or if you're a podcaster and you want to promote your podcast, but without being like, scan this QR code and listen to my podcast and leave a review, you can say, here's some really interesting guests I've had on my podcast and here's what they said. And it's continuing to further the value that you're delivering to the audience without selling them something. But one kind of hack I will give to that, John, is I, you can still use your keynote as an audience building technique that still delivers value in a way where you're delivering them the notes or the recap or the slide deck from your presentation in exchange for an email. So when I speak right before my conclusion, I tell them that they can scan a QR code and it's going to send the slide deck to them so that they have it, they can remember it, it's going to give them discussion questions to bring back to their team. But that is Also, where they're now in my orbit. Now I can also. They want to hear what I'm doing. The next email I send will probably be about Mic Drop Workshop or my book or my podcast. And so there are ways that you can use that time on stage to just get people into your orbit in a way that provides value. I've tested a lot of different lead magnets from the stage. The slides or the notes convert higher than anything else that I've done.

A (8:04)

Yeah, yeah. So how do you also balance? I mean, there's a lot of people that look at speaking and think that's also kind of a very, you know, status Y thing. Right. I'm doing a keynote here. You see people on LinkedIn all the time talking about the status thing. But what's the difference between wanting to be on the stage and actually having something worth saying from it?

B (8:26)

Such a good question. And I would say most of the women that I work with lean towards the. What do I have to say? Right. And how I teach this. This is actually a concept I gave in my TED Talk last year that has done really well. So I'll share it here. It's usually when you have that imposter syndrome coming from what I call a spotlight mindset, Spotlight speakers go up there, spotlights on them. How do I look? How do I sound? They're concerned with public perception. They want to appear impressive. What does everyone think of me? If a spotlight asks what does everyone think of me? Then the other kind of speaker is a lighthouse, which is, what does everyone need of me? You go up there with, I'm going to solve a problem. Where. What is. Where are they at now? Where are they hoping to go? How can I help? And so when you switch from, like, how do I be admired? To how can I be helpful, all of a sudden, speaking is less of a flashy opportunity and more of a impactful moment for you. And the irony is, is that you become better for it. Your keynote gets better. My nerves got better when I stopped going up there trying to be impressive. Instead, I would do my research on the audience. Okay, this is accountants. What are accountants experiencing in 2026? What are their. What keeps them up at night? Okay. Now that I know where they're at, I can help where they want to go. So I think that shift can help people a lot.

A (10:04)

You know, what's interesting is you mentioned it, but I felt this for sure. You know, a lot of people talk about being afraid of public speaking, you know, and a lot of it's that mentality of I'm on stage, everybody's looking at me. But when it's, what am I here to give, all of a sudden, the stress kind of melts away. At least that's been my experience.

B (10:22)

Yeah. The more you give, the less nervous you'll be. And to be real, that sometimes means not looking good. I think sometimes when we speak from a place of a lighthouse, we want to share all the wins that we've had as a business owner. Oh, look at this thing I did. I'm on the tip today show. I sold millions of copies. Blah, blah, blah. I did that. It didn't land. I. I didn't get booked from it. When I started to share moments that went wrong and what I did about it, that's when the rubber started meeting the road. Because it wasn't about making me look good. I had to admit. Yeah, I wired $10,000 to a fraudulent manufacturer that, that sucked. But here's what I did. That's when I think things started to get noticed. So also just getting outta your head that you have to paint yourself as the hero and paint yourself in the best light. No one wants to learn from someone who's always been at the top.

A (11:15)

We need the arc, no question. Because it's true. Nobody's always been at the top. So it's a lie.

B (11:22)

Yeah, they want to root for you.

A (11:25)

So do you have a specific framework that you teach for building a talk that. That really kind of lands?

B (11:31)

Yeah, I would say start with the aftermath. Before you think about what you want to say, think about what you want to stay. Like, what do you want to stay in the room after you leave? And so I give a. We call it a transformation promise. After people hear you speak, what do you want them to do? What do you want them to believe? What do you want them to think? What do you want them to feel? And then once you have that transformation promise, maybe it's after people hear me speak, I'll give like, my example. I speak about motivation and how to create motivation that lasts. So after people hear me speak, I want their whole team to be intrinsically motivated to create lasting motivation. Now I have a North Star. Now I have the outcome in mind that I can build my keynote around. So then you work backwards. Well, what are the things that people need to understand in order to create motivation that lasts? Well, they need to know the science behind motivation, how our brain works. They need to know how to be intrinsically motivated instead of extrinsically validated. They need to know how to define their Success. So then I start going down the list of what's a checklist that someone needs to understand in order to arrive at that transformation? And then of course, fill those with, well, when did I learn this? What's the story? I can insert here, what's a data point? But I think one of the most important things you can do as a speaker is, is to simplify, not complicate. I think the spotlight speakers in us want to sound fancy and want to use words and stuff that just is hard to understand. And I think one of the most misconceptions about speaking is to like, be like revelatory and groundbreaking and novel. But the best speakers out there are reminding people of something they once knew that maybe they forgot. I mean, James Clear, like simple habits stack up. Mel Robbins, you know, and her like, just go for it with her five second rule. Shonda Rhimes, just say yes. None of these things are new, none of these things are groundbreaking. But they saw a path to own it and put their context and their spin on it. So I would say work backwards, create a transformation promise and then stop making people think too hard.

A (14:01)

It's funny, I remember again, early on in my career of speaking, you know, I think, how am I going to talk for 45 minutes? Oh yeah, I need 247 slides in order to fill that 45 minutes. Right. And then you find yourself just rushing through and now the same talk, 10 or 12 slides that you actually live in the moment with the people is a lot more effective.

B (14:22)

Totally. It's daunting. That's why it's kind of like, you know, if you're a runner or something, it's like instead of running a marathon and thinking 26.2 miles, it's like, how do you break it into five races of five? And so breaking your talk into smaller talks in that way, because now it's pretty variable. I don't know if you've gotten this, but I get asked to speak for an hour, which typically was a norm, and now It'll be like 45 minutes. 30 minutes. Yeah, 50, like. And so that way you can just plus or minus some of these micro talks within it and stepping to start over every time.

A (14:57)

Yeah, actually I've had, I had the opposite happen once. One time somebody didn't show and so they said, can you fill 90 minutes? And by the way, you're on in about half an hour.

B (15:08)

Yes. That is, you gotta be ready to go at any time. But you did it.

A (15:14)

So you work with a lot of women. I Don't know if it's predominantly, but you work with a lot of women, and women have their own brand of head trash. I think around some of this topic that men don't seem to suffer from. Sometimes we don't have imposter syndrome because we think everybody's right, that we've arrived all the time.

B (15:31)

Yeah, why not? Of course someone should listen to me. Yeah.

A (15:35)

So you've built multiple companies. You're a mom of two. You work with a lot of folks who have ambition. Do you see that? What are the places where they're quietly kind of sabotaging their balance, you know, before they even notice?

B (15:50)

It's a great question. I think that they have this facade or like this false sense of a finish line that exists somewhere that is never there. Well, I, in order for me to be a speaker, I have to reach this amount of revenue or I have to have this amount of status, or I have to have this many followers, or I need to have this accolade. I see that all the time. People are like, well, I can't pitch myself to speak because my website isn't live yet. I'm like, you have a LinkedIn. Go for it. And so I think it's. It can be comforting to people to. And myself included to say, well, I can't do that yet because I don't have this. It's not. I'm not saying never, but I'm saying this. And I would say that pitching yourself and becoming a speaker is less about this false finish line of being an expert in something and more about being excitedly curious about a topic and willing to put in the work. It doesn't mean that there is like some number or something out there that you have to hit in order to be qualified to pitch yourself. It's like, what are you curious enough about what's been a theme in your life? What do people ask you for advice on that you're willing to put in the work, put a keynote together, further your research around it every week, and put your name out there for opportunities? That's probably the number one thing I would say.

A (17:23)

So do you try, do you specifically try to coach people? Because you've mentioned this several times, your keynote, like, is that like your thing that you're always working on, and if somebody asks you to speak, that's what you're going to tell them? You're not like, what do you need? But it's like, no, here's what I do.

B (17:37)

Yes. So this. I'm so glad you brought this up because this is another again. I call it a trap. That sounds like a lot, but mistake. Sometimes I see speakers come into is they think by being dynamic and being able to speak about 20 different things, it's helping them as a speaker when it's actually hurting them. People want your greatest hit. Like, I call it being a Cheesecake Factory speaker. Where you go, it's like, no one wants Alfredo, sushi, and, you know, a burger. It's what is your chef special? What's the thing that you're really good at? And so tell them what you deliver and how it's going to help them. Don't necessarily ask them what they need and create a talk around. That doesn't mean you can't find ways to customize your talk to that audience. But if you're starting from scratch every single time you speak, one, it's a lot more work for you, and two, it's a lot less benefit to them because they are not getting something proven. Like, no one wants to be your trial run at this. Do the rest new material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get good at it. And they want something that's like, oh, yeah, I've given this talk at Coca Cola. I've given this talk at Chick Fil. A Right. You know, I've given this talk here. So build one signature talk. That's what I would recommend.

A (18:54)

And I think from a practical reality, you'll just get better at it. You'll see where people laugh, you'll see where people get really engaged. And all of a sudden it's like, okay, I can make that better at that moment.

B (19:04)

Absolutely.

A (19:05)

As opposed to, like, I have to figure out the structure of this thing.

B (19:10)

Absolutely. I mean, you can always keep iterating and always should be iterating. I think a keynote is a living and breathing thing. Like, I'm never done with a keynote. It's. I'm always editing and improving. But I would. If you're not willing to stick with it for three to five years, then don't do it. I see so many speakers that, like, every year are changing their thing that they're known for. I'm like, you're not giving anyone time to associate your name with a solution.

A (19:39)

It's funny. I'm sure comedians experience this all the time, but I've always puzzled how, like, same talk, different parts are funny one time and they're not at all to the audience the next time. Same with, like, you know, some bit that's supposed to be really touching and like, it. It doesn't look like anybody got It. I just always. There's no question in that, really. I just always find that really odd.

B (20:02)

Yeah, exactly.

A (20:05)

So I appreciate. Jess, you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there someplace you'd invite people to who want to do more speaking, who want to actually learn how to do it right? What would be the next step for them? What would be the first step, I should say for them? And then also, how can they find out more about working with you?

B (20:24)

I would say if you want to start speaking, ask yourself. I actually said this to someone today, so I'll say it here. Imagine I gave you money to buy a billboard in your town and. Or on your, like, local highway, and it was up to you to put whatever phrase or slogan that you wanted to on that billboard. What would be the thing that you would put on that billboard? Like, what is like a mantra theme, like, something that you keep coming back to that helps people. And so if you want to just get started, I would think about, like, what would you put on an empty billboard and start there?

A (21:04)

And all that comes to mind me is eat more chicken. But that's already. So sorry.

B (21:11)

That's a place to start, John. And then you have the greatest test group of all time with social media, like test, test and test again, but. And then if you want help with that, you can come to us atmic drop workshop.com or follow us anywhere. I'm also on LinkedIn, Jess Extrum, where you can find me.

A (21:30)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

B (21:36)

Yeah, thanks, John.