The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Episode: Using AI to Convert More Leads and Save Time

Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Joe Gagnon, Co-founder and CEO of Rainmaker
Date: November 26, 2025

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, John Jantsch sits down with Joe Gagnon—CEO and co-founder of Rainmaker—to unravel how artificial intelligence is reshaping sales for small businesses. The conversation explores the unique pain points of business owners who didn’t set out to become salespeople, how AI-powered platforms like Rainmaker can revolutionize outbound and inbound sales, and how authentic automation can actually deepen customer connection while saving time and resources. The episode dives into actionable ideas, the coming integration of sales and support, and mindsets needed for successful technology adoption—all with the goal of reclaiming business owners’ time and making sales less daunting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Reinvent Sales for Small Business?

• The Pain of Accidental Salespeople
  • Many small business owners start with their craft—not with a love of selling—but quickly find sales is consuming their time and energy.
  • Quote [01:14], Joe Gagnon:

    "Small business owners don't start businesses with the idea that they wanted to sell people ... And now they're stuck. And they're stuck at the hardest part, which is the part that we wanted to focus on... we're reinventing in the context of how a small business owner operates their business."

2. What Is an ‘AI Native Sales Platform’?

• Defining the Term
  • AI has existed for decades, but advancements in large language models now make AI accessible for day-to-day sales workflows.
  • It's not about AI replacing everything, but enhancing key parts of the workflow—about 30% is AI, 70% is workflow, integration, and sales process.
  • Quote [03:08], Joe Gagnon:

    "The whole system itself...probably use[s] 30% is this AI part and 70% is a workflow, it's a sales workflow, it's a data integration problem."

3. Leveling the Playing Field for Small Businesses

• Cost and Capability

  • AI solutions like Rainmaker deliver the equivalent of a 24/7/365 sales team—at a fraction of the cost of hiring. Pricing starts at $500/month.
  • This democratizes access to capabilities typically reserved for larger businesses.
  • Quote [04:44], Joe Gagnon:

    "On the low end, it's $500 a month. On the high end, it's a thousand dollars a month. This is less than hiring a person to answer the phone. We can cover your 24 by 7 by 365."

• Predictability and Owner Freedom

  • Business owners often desire predictability and less disruption to their personal lives, rather than just more leads.
  • Quote [05:41], Joe Gagnon:

    "They just want it to be predictable. I don't want the ups and downs. I'm spending so much money on leads, I don't even know what I'm buying."

4. Striking the Balance: Automation vs. Authenticity

• Avoiding the Trap of Inauthentic AI
  • Over-automation can erode trust, but well-crafted AI can meet customer needs in a personalized, knowledge-driven way.
  • The goal is to deliver information with empathy and utility—sometimes even better than a harried human.
  • Quote [06:33], Joe Gagnon:

    "If we were a year from now, we'd be really hard pressed to find the difference between a voice generated by AI or a person's voice... if it can give you what you need... and answer the question effectively—not just in a marketing way... I keep believing that what the consumer is looking for is just more better information when they need it."

5. The Convergence: Sales & Support

• Customers Don’t Distinguish as Much as Businesses Think

  • Sales and support functions are merging. Customers want quick, accurate answers—whether buying or needing a fix.
  • Quote [09:09], Joe Gagnon:

    "We see the integration of sales and support coming together. Like the customer doesn't think about those differently. And often they call the sales line because they'll answer and they ask, right."

• Personalization with Data Insights

  • AI platforms can spot regional trends, recurring objections, and adjust their approach, including even tailored accents if appropriate.
  • Quote [12:47], Joe Gagnon:

    "We can regionalize and we can make it feel to the brand more than you could... We would love to be able to hire people and have them be experts day one... we can do that actually with AI."

6. Use Cases & Rethinking Outbound

• From Reactive to Customer-centric
  • Outbound isn’t just about cold-calling, but about enacting timely, customer-initiated follow-ups.
  • AI can power inbound sales and instantly respond to form fills, overcoming objections, scheduling appointments, handling payment, and feeding the CRM.
  • Quote [13:39], Joe Gagnon:

    "We're going to redefine outbound... If you come and fill out a form, you should be able to talk to someone... you should not be throwing your name out into the ether hoping that someday someone actually gets back to you."

7. AI as a Pressure-Free Zone

• Focus on Information over Manipulation
  • Rainmaker’s constitution: Informing is the priority, not manipulating into a sale.
  • AI bots can offer a safer, pressure-free space for prospects to inquire, learn, and, if ready, move to purchase—potentially even bypassing the need for human interaction until much later.
  • Quote [15:56], Joe Gagnon:

    "We are here to inform the customer on behalf of the owner. We're not here to manipulate. We want to make them make a better decision. We believe that when they do, they'll buy more."

8. Adoption Mindset: Where Should Owners Start?

• Stepwise Approach
  • Start with simple: Use the anytime agent for 24/7/365 coverage. Then graduate to scheduling, payments, and full CRM integration as ready.
  • Owners should reflect on their own growth constraints, long-term goals, and willingness to shift away from traditional staffing.
  • Quote [19:03], Joe Gagnon:

    "Maybe you need to explore what it would be like... How do I want to run the business going forward? Do I have the capability or do I want to get back to the reason why I started this? So, yeah, it is a bit of soul searching..."

9. The Evolution Continues: Technology as a Multiplier

• Analogies to Past Tech Disruptions
  • AI is akin to the leap from horse-and-buggy to automobile; resistance early, eventual necessity.
  • Quote [22:24], Joe Gagnon:

    "Everyone always goes back and says that, you know, we weren't going to leave the horse and buggy and came to a car. Now we can't live without it."

• The End Goal
  • Make advanced tools accessible to millions of small businesses to strengthen the economy’s backbone.
  • Quote [23:01], Joe Gagnon:

    "We're so committed on this price point because, you know, in small business, we understand that these are tight margins... There’s 30 million small businesses in the U.S. probably 10 million who could be in our target profile. We could get hundreds of thousands doing this then while we'd all do better because it's the lifeblood of the economy."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Automation is] great when it reduces friction. It's bad when it kills relationships."
  — John Jantsch [06:13]

• "I think this is one of the areas where AI will advance the ball. Yeah. And because this is under the owner control, it doesn't have to turn into a marketing vehicle. They don't really care about that. They just want predictability and they want their life back."
  — Joe Gagnon [11:14]

• "Technology that removes friction, that allows me to do something the way I want to do. I'm all for it. I think it frees us up to do, then the human parts that technology will hopefully never be able to do."
  — John Jantsch [21:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:08] Why selling is such a pain point for small business owners
• [02:52] Definition and role of an AI-native sales platform
• [04:23] How AI levels the playing field in sales for small companies
• [06:13] The problem of inauthentic, automated marketing
• [09:09] Integration of sales and support; how AI can delight customers
• [12:47] Regionalization and personalization with AI
• [13:39] Specific small business use cases and inbound redefined
• [15:56] Rainmaker’s constitution: “inform, not manipulate”
• [18:24] First steps for overwhelmed small business owners
• [20:39] Where to learn more about Rainmaker
• [22:24] Historical analogies for AI adoption
• [23:01] Commitment to accessibility and small business empowerment

Where to Learn More & Connect

• Rainmaker: raynmaker.ai
• Joe Gagnon on LinkedIn: Joe Gagnon

Rainmaker aims to bring the American small business dream closer—streamlining sales with smart, accessible, and humane artificial intelligence while giving owners more freedom to focus on their craft and lives. This episode serves as both a roadmap and an invitation for business owners to embrace the next evolution of sales.