Podcast Summary: The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Episode: "Why Great Employees Don't Always Make Great Managers"
Host: John Jantsch
Guest: Ashley Herd (Founder, Manager Method; Former Head of HR, McKinsey)
Date: December 3, 2025

Episode Overview

This insightful episode explores why high-performing employees often struggle when promoted to management roles, and how organizations can better identify, prepare, and support new managers. John Jantsch welcomes Ashley Herd to discuss her new book, “The Manager Method: A Practical Framework to Lead, Support and Get Results,” sharing actionable advice, frameworks, and scripts tailored to help managers excel and create healthy team cultures. The conversation blends real-world anecdotes, management frameworks, and candid perspectives, making it relevant for business owners, team leaders, and anyone considering or supporting management roles.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Accidental Manager Dilemma (01:07–02:52)

• Promotions Based on Success, Not Potential
  • Many organizations promote top individual contributors—especially in sales and marketing—without assessing or training for management skillsets.
  • Ashley Herd: “All of a sudden they become a manager... they're not used to sharing their tips. They don’t remember how they first got started. They're coaching poor performers that they have no empathy for whatsoever…” (01:38)
• Consequences include lack of empathy, inability to coach or delegate, and a mismatch between strengths and job requirements.

2. Mindset Differences: Stars vs. Supporters (02:52–04:38)

• John Jantsch: Draws a sports analogy: “The best managers were never the best players… The superstars actually didn’t make great managers…” (02:52)
• Ashley Herd: Highlights importance of “team first” mindset versus individual recognition. Encourages those aspiring to be managers to reflect honestly.
• Good managers create pathways for others, shifting recognition to their team.

3. Identifying the Gap: Why The Manager Method? (04:38–05:50)

• Ashley’s background in sales, law, and HR led her to see a pervasive problem: most managers simply don't know what to do, not that they’re doing the wrong things.
• The book offers practical tools, scripts, and a way to “have a practical way to think about your team, think about results, but also give ideas of what to do and say in situations…” (05:21)

4. The Power of Clear Expectations (05:50–09:10)

• “Clear expectations” is often a buzzword with little practical substance.
• Ashley stresses breaking down expectations into actionable conversations:
  • Define the team member’s role in the context of organizational goals.
  • Quantify expectations (e.g., sales targets) – but go further: discuss “how” the work will get done, obstacles, and supports.
  • Ashley Herd: “It’s having some of those additional questions and conversation to really bring it to life, rather than just saying the goal and having them figure out the what, where, why, and how…” (07:38)
• Emphasizes two-way dialogue—team members should also feel empowered to voice concerns if expectations seem unrealistic.

5. The “Career Quilt” Approach (09:10–10:06)

• Ashley shares her “career quilt” (multiple roles across different fields) as invaluable to her current perspective.
• Advocates leveraging diverse experiences for more holistic management skills.

6. The One-on-One Meeting: More Than Status Updates (11:15–13:08)

• Challenges with one-on-ones often stem from turning them into status report meetings.
• Ashley Herd: “What I see… is people say I don't even know what [a one-on-one] is. My manager never shows up to them or… they're 25 minutes late to a 30-minute meeting.” (11:30)
• Tips for effective one-on-ones:
  • Have a shared agenda document (employee and manager contribute in advance).
  • Use the time for feedback, career development, and open discussion, not just project tracking.
  • Normalize career conversations without forcing them weekly; use questions like, “What’s something you could use advice on?”

7. Giving Feedback: The Pause, Consider, Act Framework (13:08–15:40)

• Ashley outlines her feedback model:
  • Pause: Take a moment before reacting—don’t feel pressured to have all the answers immediately.
  • Consider: Reflect on your motivation (“Am I avoiding honest feedback because it’s awkward for me?”).
  • Act: Deliver feedback, focusing on the other’s growth (“I’m giving this because I care about your role and career…”).
  • Ashley Herd: “Instead of focusing so much on how it feels, think about that person… If you can be the person that delivers [the feedback], that can change the course of the rest of their career…” (14:05)
  • Notes the importance of both critical and positive feedback—recognition is rare and impactful.

8. The “Manager as Coach” Mindset (15:40–16:54)

• Ashley prefers the term “coach” or “leader” over “boss” or “manager.”
• The best coaches focus on elevating those “beneath them” on the org chart—flipping traditional hierarchies to empower the team.

9. Encouraging Ownership and Healthy Cultures (16:54–18:29)

• John’s Tip: When asked what to do, ask the report, “I don’t know, what would you do?”
• Ashley: Emphasizes the risk of cultures where people fear speaking up—creating a “CYA” culture is detrimental to innovation and retention.

10. Myths and Misconceptions: The Role of HR (18:29–19:58)

• Ashley addresses the common myth: “HR is not your friend.”
• While HR isn’t meant to be a personal advocate, they shouldn’t be adversaries either.
• Healthy organizations leverage HR to facilitate effective communication, training, and support—not just paperwork or discipline.

11. Tools, Templates, and Practical Takeaways (19:58–21:04)

• The Manager Method book and website (managermethod.com) offer downloadable guides and scripts for real-world management scenarios, e.g., how to communicate to new hires why they were chosen—helping shape role identity from day one.
• “It is not too late” to express appreciation and recognition—even years later.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ashley Herd: “One of the best things that can happen is for senior leaders to know all different names of the people on your team and they come first in mind rather than you…” (04:15)
• John Jantsch: “The best managers were never the best players… the superstars actually didn’t make great managers…” (02:52)
• Ashley Herd: “Clear expectations… it’s really important to break that down into a conversation…” (06:39)
• Ashley Herd: “If you can be the person that delivers [honest feedback], that can change the course of the rest of their career…” (14:05)
• John Jantsch: “Just try this next time… someone asks what to do: ‘I don’t know, what would you do?’ One thing alone… has changed how I manage completely… simplest thing in the world.” (16:54)
• Ashley Herd: “If you have a CYA culture where people are more afraid of getting in trouble or saying the wrong thing… that really impacts how people feel today, impacts how they work tomorrow…” (17:36)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:07–02:52] — Challenges of promoting high-performers to managers
• [04:38–05:50] — Why the Manager Method book exists
• [05:50–09:10] — Setting and communicating clear expectations
• [11:15–13:08] — Running effective one-on-ones
• [13:08–15:40] — Framework for giving feedback
• [15:53–16:54] — Manager as “coach” vs. “boss”
• [18:29–19:58] — The HR myth and its impact on culture
• [19:58–21:04] — Practical resources and scripts for managers

Further Resources

• The Manager Method book and guides: managermethod.com
• Ashley Herd on LinkedIn: Ashley Herd

Summary by Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Summarizer Bot