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- [00:00]
A
So what if the thing limiting your next stage of growth is not what you're doing, but what you can't see? You know, most small businesses don't have a marketing problem. They have a strategy problem underneath the marketing. I wrote a new workbook called seven Steps to Small Business Marketing Success that walks through exactly how to fix it, from getting clear as a founder all the way to running marketing like an operating system. 20 years of working with small businesses condensed into a framework you can actually use, and right now it's only five bucks. Go grab it at DTM World, slash seven steps. That's DTM World, slash seven steps. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. The this is John Jantz. My guest today is Cornelia Cho. She's an international leadership expert, global keynote speaker, and Thinkers50 Radar honoree. She's founder of the Leaders alliance and co author with Marshall Goldsmith of a book we're going to talk about today, the Panoramic Leader, how Great Leaders See Differently. So, Cornelia, welcome to the show.
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B
Thank you so much, John. It is such a pleasure to share this conversation to the on the show with you.
- [01:25]
A
So I'm looking at you in the camera right now in the mirror. Is that the San Francisco transit system behind you?
- [01:32]
B
It is not. It is a map of stars in the sky above Hawaii because, all right, it's. It's there to help us really pinpoint what's out there and to keep our eyes open to what's moving across the sky and to know that there are always indicators out there. If we look, we turn left and right and see.
- [01:59]
A
That sounds like a very intentional tie into your book somehow. And here I thought it was just a poster, a piece of art. So, you know, your book is coming out at a time when business owners are probably more buried in data than ever, right? I mean, AI tools and dashboards and customer analytics. So what still are we not seeing?
- [02:20]
B
No, John, it's really convenient to get a lot of data today. And AI has really commoditized data. And for so long, we've looked to leaders to give us the right information and for them to be chosen because they're smart and because they have the right experience. And today this knowledge is really accessible at our fingertips. But what we're really lacking and losing today is judgment. And it comes both across the board with all employees using AI. And it really depends on how we use AI. We can take what we're given for granted and move forward with that. But we have surveys showing that more than 50% of employees using AI have made mistakes in their work by using it, and that over 50% of employees don't verify what they get from AI. And what that's doing is really dulling our judgment. And just like after the Industrial Revolution, we've had to go to the gym because we're not getting enough physical movement. We may have to then go to the mind gym to keep our senses sharp. And so this can happen across all employees in a company, but especially for the senior management team. What's really tricky about AI and change. We've had so much change in the world today between economic and political upheaval, is that we're not able to see how change affects all of our different team members. And they're all changing in different ways. But we go forward thinking that everyone sees our company the way we see it, and we're having a lot of dysfunctions amongst teams. And there was another survey showing that CIOs and CTOs, 39% of them think their companies are ready. But in these same companies, COOs think only 7% of CEO COOs think that their companies are ready. So there is a massive disconnect there.
- [04:28]
A
You actually have a term for this, I think, that you call perspective blindness. And so let's define that. Tell me what it is, and then what does it look like when a business really has that without knowing it?
- [04:41]
B
So perspective blindness is a state in which we believe that we see the whole picture. And today the problem is there's so much change. There's change happening all over to the left and to the right, and no leader can understand all of that change. We don't know how it's affecting all our different team members. And we don't know everything that's happening out there because there's so much of it. Before, change was really a disruption of the status quo. We had the status quo, and then we had a beginning and middle and end of change, and then we had the new normal. The problem with today is that we don't have a new normal. Before we can adjust to a change, another starts. We have terrorists, we have a war, we have supply chain disruptions, we have lack of access to materials that we need. And so the fact that there is
- [05:33]
A
a new normal, it just lasts two days, right?
- [05:37]
B
There is a new normal in the last two days, but it's probably not enough time for us to feel comfortable and get used to it because we're always looking for what's changing next. And it's changing our state of mind. And so because so many things are changing, we're not able to see everything. Everyone just sees a piece of the puzzle, which is why we need to bring together and understand different perspectives and kind of add those to our map, so to say, the way we see the world. But when we think that what we see is the complete picture or that everyone else sees that way, we're going to make bad decisions. We're going to, we're going to assume that things are rosier than they are, that suppliers are going to be able to deliver, that customers are always going to be there. And let me share a story with you. I was talking to an executive and this executive was asked by senior management to hire someone who was an expert at AI to improve their product and to work alongside them in a software as a service company. And this executive complied and hired this person, but then later got rid of them saying, look, I'm the disruptor. And it's true, that person was the disruptor about a decade or more ago when Software moved from CD ROMs online. And so that was a massive disruption. But today things are changing so quickly that the disruptors are being disrupted. And that's really hard as a change in identity because where do we get our pride in our self worth? It's from what we believe we are the entrepreneur, the founder, the disruptor. But things are changing so quickly that even disruptors need to constantly update their map to see, to stay with reality and what's really changing around them in the world.
- [07:34]
A
Well, I know from looking at your bio you've worked with leaders at the United Nations White House, but does the same problem show up in your view with that business that has maybe eight people, no board? I mean, does it look different?
- [07:47]
B
Absolutely, John. I think it's is even more relevant because when you're working in a small company, you need to be extremely nimble, you need to pivot more, you need to keep your pulse on the market and on changes even more. And so I would say go and meet more of the customers. Even if you find that you're in a very stable niche, for example, there might be adjacent areas where you could expand your product or another customer segment that could be even more interested in your product. And things are changing all the time, so there are new opportunities being created, but you could also get disrupted very easily. So this matters even more to entrepreneurs. And I do work with a lot of founders and this is something that founders, I think inherently do better, are better at the beginning of their journey when they're looking to Find product, market, fit. But as we get more stable and we grow, then we need to continue to adapt both the company and of course, our identities on what we contribute to our companies, which is hard.
- [08:54]
A
It's funny, when you start out, everything's a hypothesis, right? So you know, you're willing to experiment and change, but yeah, you get entrenched. In fact, one of the things you talk about, you mentioned the word map, and you talk a lot about this idea of mental maps that we operate from. So how are these maps that are ingrained maybe from childhood or certainly from another point in your career. How. How are those creating blind spots, do you think?
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B
So I'll give you an example from my own life. I was raised in Minnesota until I was 10. And I had a pretty happy childhood out in nature. A lot of friends, and a lot of my friends were blonde, so I thought I was blonde growing up. Because when you're small, you don't think about it. You just think you are whatever you see. And then I moved to Korea, to South Korea, to Seoul when I was 10. And I had the shock of my life. The first question I asked my mom in the airport was, where did they find so many people with black hair? And how did they get them all in the same room? I had never seen anything like that before. And I had to completely rewrite my map of who I was and how I was supposed to be. And I was promised a whole world of loving relatives who are waiting for me. Well, that wasn't true. They were totally confused by who I was. They told me I looked Korean, but I wasn't acting. And I couldn't figure out how I was supposed to act. And so we're all probably didn't speak
- [10:20]
A
Korean, I imagine, at that time, at that point or in your life, definitely
- [10:24]
B
not enough and not very well at all. And so we all carry around inside an. An operating system, like an internal gps, guiding us on what works, what doesn't, which we get from our successes and our failures that we've lived through. And we call this our internal map. And this is something we need to update. And for me, when got to Korea, it got really confusing until one time I saw an interview with an actress who was a single mother. And she was saying that she's gone through a lot of moments of anger and sadness and joy, and it helps her become better at her craft and a better actress because she's able to understand more of her characters. And I thought, that's my job. That's what I need to do is to understand a lot of perspectives and the people around me and update my map. And it was only when I was willing to change my map and start to get to know people around me and how they think and how different it was and to absorb that myself, to be able to, willing to, you know, to, to change how I see that I was able to make friends and really find a lot more success in every subsequent move. And I've lived in 11 different places around the world and three continents by the time I was 18. So I've had a lot of practice in this. But it really helps when we adjust our map and our view to the world and the, to the people around us, even if we don't understand it at the beginning.
- [11:56]
A
That's really interesting. You talk about travel. I mean that to me has always been one of the most eye opening experiences as you experience other cultures and other places and you know, you don't know about them. So part of your mental map is ignorance of, you know, other cultures and things. And so to get that opening, I've always found that really opens your eye, your mind and new ideas. You know, I've spent over 20 years watching good businesses waste money on marketing. That doesn't add up. And usually the problem isn't the tactics, it's the missing foundation underneath them all. So I put the whole system in a new workbook called Seven Steps to small Business Marketing success. Seven steps, the right order with everything you need to build that actually compounds. You can pick it up right now for five bucks at DTM World 7 Steps. That's DTM World 7 Steps. So we've talked a little bit, poked a little bit of what the problem is, how do we solve it? Like all good consultants, I think you have a framework that you know of how to approach it. So you want to unpack that a little bit.
- [13:04]
B
Sure. It's a very intuitive framework and we call it GEM and it stands for get up close, establish meaningful bonds and map your evolving perspective. So that basically boils down to step one, where we're actually willing to get up close to people who think differently and there's no pressure, just talk to them, hear their point of view. And we use a lot of curiosity and courage at this point just to approach them and say, hey, you know, do you want me for a coffee? If that's not possible or if it's dangerous for some reason, then we can potentially read about them or talk to someone we know in common and just to get an idea of what they're Thinking and try to put ourselves in their shoes. And the problem a lot of leaders have is that the, when you're a founder or a CEO and the higher you go in the hierarchy, the less you hear of what people actually think and you hear more of what people think you want to hear. And so creating a relationship of trust, which is step number two to really deepen this relationship instead of a one off encounter and say, look, I'm happy to meet from time to time and to update your map according to what they see, that's extremely helpful because that's when you really get an understanding of what your stakeholders or the people around you are really thinking. And that's what helps you update your map, which is step three. If you talk about a subject in common, then you'll be able to say, okay, this is where that subject is on my map. They see it differently. I'm going to add on to it. I didn't know that this was possible and I get this comment a lot in the circles I lead of leaders who are chosen to work together into small circles because they think differently, not necessarily because they're from a different background. You could be from the exact same town. But if you think differently and solve your problems together, then you're able to see so much more of so many more options and possibilities. And we, we call this optimistic fear because it's acknowledging that there is fear and there could be danger, but still using that fear to propel you forward, to get close and to get more information, to talk to people. And when you get closer, you see the situation much clearer and you're able to find a lot more, many more solutions. And to give you an example, I was working with a CEO who took over after the departure of a founder of a company. And we found out that this founder was still controlling some of the operations through their relationship with employees that they've known for a very long time. And the new CEO was extremely angry and was thinking of leaving. And they were really succumbing to fight flight or freeze and the fear of the unknown. What, what's going to happen to this company because I'm not in control and who's the real CEO? And so I paired them up with another founder who had just left their company, who had just sold their company. And this CEO agreed to have a very open mind and just to be very curious during the meeting. And the CEO found that it's so incredibly hard to leave a company. This founder felt like they left a part of their body behind. And yeah, and was able to really patch things up with their own founder and bring the company to the next level of growth.
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A
So when I heard you talking about the framework and kind of week to week, what that might look like for a business owner, I feel like we talked mostly about, like, people on your team. But that would really be true for customers too, right? I mean, so many of the conversations we have with customers are we are providing a report, providing a service, checking in. It's all transactional. But we're not probably doing these things that could expand the map of how the customer actually views the world or how or what they consider as value. Based on what we think we're delivering value. Would you say that a business owner or an entrepreneur should probably include customers in those conversations, shouldn't they?
- [17:26]
B
Yeah, absolutely, John. I think we're looking at employees, but we're actually looking at the realm of stakeholders in general because customers change and their needs change, and we may be able to fulfill a different need and expand on our product, for example. And so this is a great thing to do in general, but all the more so because things are changing so much in the lives of the customers as well. So I would say get up close to your employees and your customers, but also with your suppliers, your distributors, and even an influencer who you don't know, who's far away, who's bringing people to your products or not.
- [18:07]
A
You use the term micro translations and the idea that there could be some miscommunication there. And I'm thinking of, like, literal translations right in when you're trying to speak to somebody in another language, even like your intonation can mean something completely different. So I unpack that idea of microtranslations and how they show up in customer relationships, employee relationships.
- [18:30]
B
To give you an example of the survey where it was found that 39% of CIOs believe the company's ready, and only 7% of COOs believe that the company's ready. They're looking in completely different directions and their plan of action is very different. So if we bring them together, then they're really able to translate what they are thinking. Because if you bring them together, each one is going to automatically assume that the other sees their perspective, and that's when you really run into trouble. So starting from the basics, where each person will explain how they see the situation and explaining it in a way that the other person can understand. And that's when you get the real magic, John, because when you explain things in the perspective of another person so that they can understand. And so the COO will say, look, you know, I know you have a plan for your technology rollout, but we're actually looking at these specific teams which are having a problem. How do they fit in your plan? And then to translate what we're seeing in a way others can understand, that's when we actually get the, the co creation and the communication. So it's one added step, but it's brings fantastic results.
- [19:51]
A
What about outside perspectives? I know I get brought in quite often to organizations and, you know, there's leadership, there's marketing, there's sales, there's customer service. And by the time I've talked to all of them, I realized that they've been operating the way they operate and it doesn't make sense. And certainly there are disconnects. And it was so clear and easy for me to see when they were just like, well, I don't know. This is how we've always done it. Would you say that bringing in outside perspective is a great way to actually open some eyes to blind spots? Because, I mean, the problem with blind spots is we would fix them if we knew they were there. Half the time we just don't know they're there.
- [20:27]
B
Exactly. And a lot of people go on autopilot because it's easier. And our brains are actually our most expensive organ because it takes up 2% of our body weight but 20% of our energy and our oxygen. So people try to offload and autopilot everything they can because they don't want to rethink it over. But in a time when we have constant disruption and our maps are changing constantly, then we have to question what we do. And it's easier when we bring in curiosity and optimistic fear because then we're willing to question and say it's not going to be that big of a deal. Let's just get a bit closer and see what we think. Let's talk to these people. Let's call these people in for a meeting Monday morning. Let's make a list of people who aren't at our table and to get to know what they're thinking throughout the week.
- [21:19]
A
Well, Cornelia, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there somebody that or somewhere that you would invite people to connect with you or find out more about the panoramic leader?
- [21:28]
B
Absolutely. My website is at cornelia cho.com, c o r n e l I a C-H-O e.com I would love to hear from you and our. If you want to learn more. Our book is on Amazon, and it's called the Panoramic Leader.
- [21:46]
A
Awesome. Well, again, Tay, appreciate you stopping by, and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
- [21:51]
B
Absolutely. John has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.